Mauser Load for k98

[Ivantherussian03]

I developed a load with some collaboration with others. This load might be heavy on the powder.


I went to reload for moose season and doubled checked, and 50 grains of powder, is four grains past the max load in my manual. Is this unsafe?

I developed this load last winter, and tested it in the spring. I shot about 75 cartriges. I zeroed the rifle, an inch or 2 high at 25 yards. A 185 grain bullet, 50 grns of powder.

[Linstrum]

Hi, there, Ivantherussian.

Four grains over from the maximum listed in a reloading table could very well be unsafe, especially when you say that you developed the load in the winter and tested it in the spring when weather is often substantially cooler than in the summer and autumn. You didn’t mention what caliber rifle this load is for, the powder type, bullet weight, or type of primer you are using, and these have a major bearing on whether or not the load being 4-grains over what is listed in a handloading book as safe. As an example, if you were using 50 grains of WC860 with a 180-grain boolit in a .30-06, being 4-grains over is no big deal, but using BL-C(2) could be a major overload. Reloading relies on very exact measurements for most parameters.

A lot of reloaders develop loads by carefully working them up and they perform safely for months or years and then one day the bolt on the rifle jams or a primer blows as the result of a massive high-pressure excursion. When this happens it seems like a complete mystery as to what went wrong, but any experienced reloader will tell you exactly what went wrong. But before explaining to everybody who doesn’t understand why seemingly safe pet loads suddenly turn around and bite without warning, one of the main rules about working up loads is that after pushing things a bit to discover the “safe” top load for a given combination of powder, primer, and bullet weight, YOU MUST BACK OFF FROM THAT TOP LOAD BY 5% TO 10%, SOMETIMES EVEN MORE. The reasons are that powder burns faster and develops higher pressure when the weather is warm, there are major differences in performance from one lot to the next of the same powder type, different brands of primers produce different pressure results, different brands of brass have different internal volumes and the smaller the volume the higher the pressure, the use of case fillers changes pressure, old powder often produces higher pressure than when it was new, and lastly, a load that produces safe pressure in one rifle will produce dangerous pressure in another rifle of the same caliber. There are still more factors that make chamber pressure go high, but the ones just mentioned are the main ones to worry about. That is why the loading tables almost always show loads that run about 10% under what your own findings are. Lately, another reason has appeared why loads seem to be way down from what your own findings are, which is lawyers are always happy to sue a powder manufacturer, so the loads get diminished even more from what they were twenty years ago out of fear of being sued (Shakespeare was right when he said: “kill all the lawyers”). Also, powder characteristics change over the years for many reasons as well, such as the IMR4895 made during World War Two for the Garand loads was about as fast as today’s IMR4064. Aliant 2400 is another one that has changed from its old progenitor, Hercules 2400.

So, tell us a little more about your load and we’ll try our best to see that you get your moose and that he is the only one who gets dinged doing it.

[straightshooter1]

Linstrum-Not ALL the lawyers, please. :Fire: Most of us are...uhhh, some of us are...uhhh Well, I'm okay at least. I think that Shakespeare guy was just kidding when he said that, right? After all, what would you guys do without us? Well maybe I don't really want an answer to that one.:(

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

I developed a load with some collaboration with others. This load might be heavy on the powder.


I went to reload for moose season and doubled checked, and 50 grains of powder, is four grains past the max load in my manual. Is this unsafe?

I developed this load last winter, and tested it in the spring. I shot about 75 cartriges. I zeroed the rifle, an inch or 2 high at 25 yards. A 185 grain bullet, 50 grns of powder.

I've got to disagree with Linstrum, what is a maximum load in one manual isn't necessarily a maximum load in other manuals. Also I've found little or no difference in burning rates of "old" 4895 and current 4895 (IMR products both). Likewise my testing has not revealed any difference in old 2400 or the "new" 2400.

Most of us who have been loading for some time have numerous loading manuals and use them for "reference", not God's gospel.

For example if you look at Hornady and Lyman manuals for their 170 gr bullet you will see the list "max" loads as 50.1 and 49 gr of 4895 restively. Lyman shows it as a compression load which is also true. In several other manuals those two loads are 1 to 4 gr over the "max" listed load. So who is right?

My regular load for the 175 Sierra book is 49 gr because that is a cslight compression load with a FL case. I have also used 51 gr with that 175 gr bullet in NS'd cases. While those are topend loads they are by no means over pressure for the M98 or the cartridge.

With the 185 gr Remington I loaded up to 49 gr (again a slight coompression load) for testing and found the 49 gr load to be a good one and not near "max" pressure wise. It would appear Ivantherussian03's load is ok though he doesn't say what powder he is using. Another thing to remember is he is hunting moose which generally means he is in a colder climate. The ambiant temperature also has a direct influence on pressures.

Now to keep this in line with this forum I really like the 8x57 for hunting with cast bullets. I actually prefer it over most any .30 cal. With the Lyman 325471 HP cast of magnum shot and water quenched out of the mould over a load (no where near "max" BTW) of 4895 running 2000+ fps it is markedly more deadly on little deers than 311041 HP for instance.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I will go along with Larry Gibson and add that the 8x57 round is under loaded in the country including the reloading information for it. i couple more are the 7.65 Argentine, the 303 British, and the 7.7 Jap. In fact when making a hunting load for the 7.7, I pretty much use 30-06 loads, and those aren't up to snuff either. The Arisaka action is one of the strongest out there too.

Joe

[floodgate]

I think the main danger lies in possibly blowing up the more timid loading manuals. DON'T store powder, primers or other flammable/explosive substances near your loading book shelf!!!

floodgate

[Ivantherussian03]

The gun is an K98 8mm. The powder is H380. I use CCI Primers. The brass is Winchester. The bullet 185 grain. The tempertures were from 0 Farenheit, to 20 above.The primers were divited, not flat after shooting. Some blackness collected on the neck of the cartridge. During moose season temps range from 30 F to 60F.

[Ivantherussian03]

hey Thanks for the input. I guess take it all in, and rework that load.:Fire:

[Ricochet]

My Speer #11 manual shows charges up to 52 grains of H380 with a 200 grain Speer spitzer bullet in the 8mm Mauser.

Sooted case necks are most often seen with loads developing relatively mild pressures.

[dualsport]

Ran across this oldie. I'm bringing it back up just for the picture of Ricochet!

[mouser868]

Being 2 inches high at 25 yards, I wonder where it's hitting at 100 yards.

[Linstrum]

Ran across this oldie. I'm bringing it back up just for the picture of Ricochet!

Ricochet is still around but not here lately, he's busy with other things. His last post was in May. He just started growing his yearly Santa beard for Christmas, getting a good early start!


rl859

[Multigunner]

Well as for the subject of this old thread I have to say I'm concerned whenever anyone exceeds maximum recommended loads, and there are many reasons why apparent good results might lead to serious damage to a rifle later on.

The factor of a load worked up in cold weather giving much higher pressures in warmer weather has been mentioned. A member of another forum I visit severely damaged a valuable target rifle when he used loads worked up in 60 degree weather at a match further west where 90 degree heat was the norm.

The IMR 4895 bought by Hodgdon in bulk from the US military and sold to handloaders did have a altered burning rate after years in underground storage. The samples he sent for duplication of this powder were tested and H4895 powder formulated to duplicate it has the burning rate of the slightly degraded samples.

A slight difference in case capacity can raise pressures. A load that would be a safe maximum load in some commercial cases might be marginal in some milsurp cases. If the maximum is exceeded there may be enough safety margin for the commercial case but not for the milspec cases.

Exceeding maximum recommended pressures by up to 20 percent may not blow up a rifle in one shot or a hundred, but can cause unseen damage that can build up till a catastrophic failure takes place. A single less than optimum case might also give way long before that due to the excessive pressure.

The Low Number Springfield failures pointed out in clear terms that a split case head under even standard pressures can wreck a rifle. A better made rifle might not burst like a jelly jar as some LN 03's did but a face full of brass and wood splinters can ruin your day, and if miles from the nearest first aid could be fatal.

[buck1]

As I recall There were two bore diamiters and loading books kept things low in case you got a older and smaller diam bore. In europe this was known but not as much in the states....Buck

[Linstrum]

As I recall There were two bore diamiters and loading books kept things low in case you got a older and smaller diam bore. In europe this was known but not as much in the states....Buck

Yup, you got it! The original 8x57J had a 0.318" bore and later on this was opened up to 0.323" for the 8x57JS. Also, the 0.318" bore 8mm rifles in other cartridges are, or were, made for years after the German military specified the 0.323" bore for their later 8x57JS military rifles including the very common Mauser K98k. Because of the two different 8x57 bore sizes, the U.S. SAAMI specs require that all commercial .323 8x57JS ammo be safe when fired in a 0.318 bore 8x57 rifle with the consequences that commercially available ammo in the U.S. is pretty anemic. There is more to the story that I am not covering, maybe someone who knows a lot more about than I do could expand on that a bit.

I reload my 8x57JS ammo to full house European specs, which is probably between the .308 Winchester and .30-06 in energy. The 8x57JS IS a powerful cartridge when loaded to its full potential.


rl865

[Donor8x56r]

13.8 Gr of Red Dot set behind Lee cast sized,lubed,GC .325 WW alloy,water quenched boolit with CCI primer.
All this in Prvi case.
This is the load i use in M48A with very decent results.

Very economical load,quite consistent.

[azcruiser]

Don't know how thing work up north where it's cold .But out hear in the desert you want to watch out for those hot loads when your ammo could be sitting a car or car trunk all day at close to guessing 185 + well hot enough to explode soda cans . Not split seen pop cans pop almost flat