Thinking about a 303 British

[mtgrs737]

I have had the itch for a British 303 for quite awhile now, the problem is that I don't know much about them. I know that they had seveal variations but I don't know which is best or where to look for and tell a good one from a poor one. Any help of where to look and study up on them would be appreciated.

[docone31]

Jeepers, Get one! I prefer the #1MKIII. You will bed the forearm.
I love them.

[Pepe Ray]

I like SMLE's and the cartridge.but IF you are a shooter rather than a collector you must be aware that when your eyes start to go you must be prepared to make adjustments to the rifles.
The #1's must be fitted for a receiver sight or scope. If your accuracy requirements are high, even the #4's may need re fitting for sights.
Once youve made those decisions you can address the issue of sloppy chamber tolerances and how they effect your shooting/ reloading. It's all great fun.
Pepe Ray

[Multigunner]

I have had the itch for a British 303 for quite awhile now, the problem is that I don't know much about them. I know that they had seveal variations but I don't know which is best or where to look for and tell a good one from a poor one. Any help of where to look and study up on them would be appreciated.

For a first time Enfield owner I'd suggest the No.4 rifle over the No.1, not because its a better rifle because its not better just a bit simpler and usually made of a bit higher quality steel.

Bedding of the SMLE can be a complicated process. The No.1 seems to work best if free floated or with only a slight upwards pressure at one point. The action bedding for each is the same.

You'd do well to find a five groove barrel. Two groove barrels are usually ammunition sensitive.

An excellent condition No.1 MkIII is a joy to own, if you found a really nice one with excellent bore you shouldn't pass it up, cause they are getting harder to find in good condition.

[mtgrs737]

So there are No. 1s and No. 4's ? Years ago a friend got a brand new 303 still in the grease, it was perfect. I don't suppose there are any of those around.

[Bolted_Down]

LOVE the SMLE! I think that you can't go wrong with one, myself.
Butter smooth action, ammo available in mil surp and commercial, a joy to shoot.
I love the looks it gets at the range, too! With all the "dime a dozen" Mosins and even the Mausers out there, NOTHIN' grabs the eyes on the firing line like an Enfield...especially when you retrieve your target and show off that nice tight group.
;)

My shooter :
'55 Fazakerley No.4 MkII, all matching, as pretty as the day she stepped off the line and into the world.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/BoltedDown/Shooting/IMG_2093.jpg

and imported cosmoline mummys are still available today from amory stocks.
Check out this pair:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/BoltedDown/Shooting/enfieldufa11512left.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/BoltedDown/Shooting/enfieldufa11513left.jpg

Matched pair, consecutive serial numbered '55 Faz No.4 MkII's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/BoltedDown/Shooting/COSMOTWIN-Enfields.jpg

[atr]

Ive got a two grove #4 MK1 ....US made by Savage..was part of lend lease program...its for sale if you are interested...

[Bolted_Down]

ive got a two grove #4 mk1 ....us made by savage..was part of lend lease program...its for sale if you are interested...

beauty!!

[mtgrs737]

Thanks for the offer, but I'm going to learn myself up a little before the fall gunshows get here.

[Jack Stanley]

My first was a Australian number one mark three . I liked them a lot back when my eyes were better but still , I can see the sights better than some milsurps . I think my favorite is a number four mark two . The sights are easy and the groove is tight enough for whatever ammo I have on hand . ( except for the ammo intended for the old SMLE with the .318" groove )

Learning up on them would be a good thing , all the MK's , *, %, @ and = mean something but I sure ain't the one to tell ya what !! :Fire: A shooter though is a real joy 8-)

Jack

[Bloodman14]

Yeah, you can't go too far wrong with an Enfield; I've got a No. 4 MkII, '54 Fazakerly 5-groove that I wouldn't trade for nuthin'! The Enfields are hard to beat, and harder to find!

[509thsfs]

I've got a dozen or so Enfields. No1's, No4's, a No5 and P14. have to admit I like the No4's over the No1's. Really like the P14 too. but then the P14/M1917 are my fav milsurp rifles. So many variations in 303, so little money haha

[Piedmont]

The .303 British is never a bad idea--best centerfire rifle cartridge ever. I am completely unbiased.

Actually I think I like the No 1 Mk IIIs the most but if your eyesight is bad get the #4 or you might even luck into a P14.

[skeet1]

I guess my favorite if the Longbranch Enfields made in Canada. Mine is a No.4 Mk1*1950 model and I love it. I think the sights on the No.4 are much better for my eyes than the No.1.

Skeet1

[higgins]

Whichever one comes along first in the right condition. The peep sights on the Mk1 and 2 are easier to use. More important than the Mark number (1 or 2) is the condition of the bore. Your biggest challenge will be to find one that has a good sharp muzzle and a shiny unpitted bore. If you're primarily a shooter instead of a collector the manufacturer will not be that critical. Like all military arms, many of them have been through arsenal rebuild - what the Brits call FTR (Factory Thorough Repair) so will have mixed parts and wood. Never buy an Enfield without clearing the crud out of the bore with a patch and then look at a clean dry bore. The reason good bores are hard to find is that many of the Enfields you'll find have been fired by American civilians using corrosive military surplus ammo and then not cleaned properly with warm or hot water or at least a water-based cleaner (that in itself may start another thread). See if the serial numbers on the receiver and bolt handle match. A mismatch may not be a deal breaker if the barrel is good, but should be worth a discount. If you're going to shoot handloads it won't be an issue, but if you shoot factory ammo I would buy Prvi Partizan for the initial cost and the fact that it is very good brass to reload. If you buy military surplus keep in mind that there has been relatively little good noncorrosive surplus available in the past; when it turns up now it is almost as expensive as commercial noncorrosive. What military cordite loads remain on the market are of questionable reliability because of hangfires due to storage conditions all over the world for the last 60+ years. If it is in military packaging assume it's corrosive until you're educated enough about ammo to know what is what. Some dealers don't know what they have, some tell you what their supplier told them (which may be wrong) , and some will just lie to make a sale. The ammo thing is a bit of a personal crusade because over the years I have looked at so many Enfields that were very good to excellent looking on the outside but had ruined bores which were easily preventable with a little ammo education. Yes, I have fired a lot of corrosive military ammo but I knew what it was and how to clean accordingly so my rifles have not suffered. Don't get discouraged if a good one doesn't turn up quickly; the hunt is a big part of the fun and you'll pick up a lot of knowledge along the way.

[challenger_i]

Save your money, and scrounge around for a Pattern 14. With a good barrel, they will drive tacks. One doesn't have to worry about the head space issues of a Lee Enfield, and you will have to work hard to blow one up! (After all, this was the action that Winchester developed the 300 Win Mag on...)

[parrott1969]

If your are in the market for an enfield the first thing you need to do is buy an field headspace guage and check the headspace before you buy. Yes the bolt heads can be changed to correct headspace problems ( if you can find the correct one) but you need to know what you are buying is safe. FYI, modern field headspace guage for the British 303 is .070 if the bolt closes on it they will say it is unsafe. However the origial military field guage was .074

[Bloodman14]

Challenger, you may wish to reconsider your signature line; the RKBA is a RIGHT and always will be. The government didn't grant it; therefore, they cannot take it away. The answer to the current situation is to replace Congress.

[walltube]

and you may well be on your way to another, and another. Puts me to mind of the potato chip commercial line "...you can't eat just one."

Of the three SMLE I own, the No.5 Mk.1 has thus far been my favorite bolt mil-surp boolit rifle. As has been said here, No.4 (and 5) are more enjoyable at the range because the the peep style back sights are user friendly to older eyes. Also, the elevation adjustable back sights as issued with most No.4 Mk1 and all No. 5 offer a great advantage over those "other mil-surp rifles" :) with rear sights mounted ahead the receiver ring. Again, older eyes need all advantage available.

Should you find an acceptable No.4 SMLE equipped with a 'two hole aperture flip' type back sight and not the adjustable, SARCO and Numrich will have what's needed. SARCO offers a target back sight with windage and elevation adjustments.



Good luck, keep looking and you'll find a good one to enjoy.

Y.T.,
Wt.

[mtgrs737]

Thanks for all the replies, I have already leaned a lot about 303's. I am in the process of reading up on the models in preperation for the start up of the gunshow season around Labor Day. I have a set of dies, and some Norma brass as a start to reloading for one, I will be checking the bore very closely as I will be looking for a good shooter.

[Multigunner]

Thanks for all the replies, I have already leaned a lot about 303's. I am in the process of reading up on the models in preperation for the start up of the gunshow season around Labor Day. I have a set of dies, and some Norma brass as a start to reloading for one, I will be checking the bore very closely as I will be looking for a good shooter.

A member of another board I visit has a nice P-14 for sale.
He actually bought it believing it was an M1917 US Enfield in .30-06, then found it wouldn't chamber the .30-06 cartridge.
We finally got it figured out for him. The shop where he got it probably never heard of the P-14.

Images he posted show an above average specimen, well worth having, but he collects only US firearms of WW2 and really wanted an M1917 because those were issued to second line troops and support personel, also Airforce airfield guards.

I anyone interested in a fine P-14 , especially if you have a very nice M1917 you'd like to trade, let me know and I'll get the contact info for you if he still has it.

[sisiphunter]

Great rifles. I have two no1 mk3 and just got a p14 that has been sporterized. They are all in my opinion. Most say the no5 was not that great, but I have neevr shot one.

Check out http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/ for tons of useful info on the enfields, helped me make sense of things when I caught the enfield bug/addiction.

Matt

[mtgrs737]

Hey sisiphunter, thanks for the link! It will be useful to help me in my understanding of the enfields. Thanks to Multigunner for the info on the P-14. I may PM you for the contact info once I learn some more. I am only planning on buying one..... :)

[KY Jim]

I have a sporterized SMLE, and a 1945 Lithgow, think they're Number Ones, they have the rear sights out on the barrel with the flat cocking piece on the rear of the bolt. One SMLE is NOT enough. I'd like to put a scope on the sporter, but since I can't I.D. the rifle correctly(no pictures) don't know which mount to order.

[Bloodman14]

KY Jim, get hold of 'Centerfire Systems' in Versailles, Ky. They have a mount that fits on the bridge of SMLE's.

[KY Jim]

Yeah, seems like I've heard of them. Thanks.

[Multigunner]

Well the P-14 got sold. If I hear of another I'll post about it sooner next time.

[bruce drake]

I have a sporterized SMLE, and a 1945 Lithgow, think they're Number Ones, they have the rear sights out on the barrel with the flat cocking piece on the rear of the bolt. One SMLE is NOT enough. I'd like to put a scope on the sporter, but since I can't I.D. the rifle correctly(no pictures) don't know which mount to order.


Barrel mounted sights are an easy indicator for a No 1 MK III Enfield (SMLE)

Enjoy your rifles. I've shot and owned all three styles (No1, No4 and P14) and I love them all.

Bruce

[Van]

I need help finging parts to a 1915 .303 Enfield.

I'm not sure of the model number. But the safety is completey gone. There is a cut out in the action, possibly for an ammo cut off, which is also missing. Bubba grinded down the top of the reciever to mount a scope.

I'd like to restore this beautiful rifle and get it shooting. Numrich didn't have the safety parts, at least I couldn't find them.

How do I post pictures?

[docone31]

Look for numbers 14 through 15
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=11952
I have done many Enfields from Numerich.
Good people.

[Tertle]

Two word of advice, one, if you have the chance, get a hold of a book by a gentleman by the name of Ian Skennerton, "the Lee Enfield" while it might cost a little it is a great investment. Especially when the inevitable happens....

Two, get a bigger gun cabinet and be nice to your other half, I too started out with only one Enfield......now i have a No1's, No2's, No3's, No4's, No8's and 9's and a few "others" I have no idea how it happened! I also have a very understanding wife :)

They are addictive trust me. If you plan to reload there are a few tricks but they are a great rifle that will give hours of joy.....

[Multigunner]

I need help finging parts to a 1915 .303 Enfield.

I'm not sure of the model number. But the safety is completey gone. There is a cut out in the action, possibly for an ammo cut off, which is also missing. Bubba grinded down the top of the reciever to mount a scope.

I'd like to restore this beautiful rifle and get it shooting. Numrich didn't have the safety parts, at least I couldn't find them.

How do I post pictures?

My 1915 also has the milled slot for the magazine cut off, it had been removed at some earlier date and the badly warped replacement fore end it had before I got it had no provision for the cut off. I found a unissued fore end with provision for the cut off and an unissued cut off plate at Springfield Sporters. She is sitting pretty now in new but correct for its service timeframe wood.
I also found a used very good condition unaltered MkIII windage adjustable rear sight to replace its damaged original sight.
Since the action body has no * in its markings and no sign it ever had the * I believe I've restored the rifle to its intended configuration, less the volley sight. The fore end isn't milled for the volley sight but while the adjustable rea sights and cut off plates were restored to some rifles altered during WW1 the volley sights weren't restored so far as I know.
If the serial number is any indication mine left the factory before the MkIII* modifications were instituted. So if I ran across a MkIII fore end with volley sight I could use it to bring the rifle back to the original MkIII configuration which would match its markings and manufacturing date and serial numbers of the first months of 1915.

[Multigunner]

Barrel mounted sights are an easy indicator for a No 1 MK III Enfield (SMLE)

Enjoy your rifles. I've shot and owned all three styles (No1, No4 and P14) and I love them all.

Bruce

There are No.4 actioned sporters that have had the rear sight stanchions and charger guide milled off at the factory, and a barrel mounted sporter type sight.
Some were UK government ordered alterations issued for various purposes.
These aren't bubba'ed rifles by any means and a bit more valuable as collectors items than unaltered infantry rifles.

Awhile back I visited a forum where many collectors were advising a visitor on how to restore his suposedly bubba'ed No.1 to military configuration, but luckily one poster recognized that what they'ed assumed was a sporterized military rifle was in fact a very rare BSA sporting rifle built by BSA as a sporter and never having been in military configuration.
I would examine and sporter built on the Enfield, Springfield, or Mauser actions very closely before considering it a project for restoration.
A good many highly prized sporting rifles produced by prestigious arms makers were built on surplus actions often actions that had never been part of a finished military rifle.
Griffin&Howe Springfields and Krag sporters, Sauer&Sonn Mausers, and BSA Enfields and P-14 actioned rifles are highly collectable and far more valuable than a common service rifle of the type. The Remington Model 30 looks for all the world like a bubba'ed M1917 but is a sporting rifle built by Remington on the WW1 surplus machinery they'd used to manufacture the M1917.

[leadman]

The #4 MK2 have better triggers I think and it is also easy to remove the rear sight and install a scope without permanent modifications to the rifle. Either a sporter stock or a strap on piece on the stock to raise your head up to see thru the scope easier is nice. Synthetic stocks are easily obtained and not much money.
All this can be reversed in a matter of 15 or 20 minutes easily.
Many post WWII guns are available in great condition for less than $200.

[Multigunner]

The #4 MK2 have better triggers I think and it is also easy to remove the rear sight and install a scope without permanent modifications to the rifle. Either a sporter stock or a strap on piece on the stock to raise your head up to see thru the scope easier is nice. Synthetic stocks are easily obtained and not much money.
All this can be reversed in a matter of 15 or 20 minutes easily.
Many post WWII guns are available in great condition for less than $200.

There are reproduction lace on cheekpieces of the type used on the garand Sniper rifles that seem to work very nicely on a scoped No.4.
These have an opening on the inside to allow adding or subtracting the stuffing and aranging it to best suit the individual shooter.
Since they are intended for a rifle which used a scope offset to the left side to allow loading the enbloc clips they would probably work best with modified stuffing, and prehaps rotated to put more of the cheek piece above the rather low Enfield comb.

I made a permanent cheek piece addition to the unrestorable buttstock i'd first used with my Scoped No.4. I had some old degraded saddle skirt leather that I boiled out and cut and shapped while wet into a rollover cheek piece, to get the necessary height I then nailed two layers of the same leather to the comb and carved to fit the inside curve of the rollover, which I then glued and nailed in place. That buttstock , and fore end as well, was badly damaged long before I got it so after repairs I filled in the broken away areas and gave the final product a flat black paint job.
The end result was what a friend called the most evil of all Enfields.
I've since obtained replacement wood and have made another rollover which I'll secure by a lace on band this time. With some double faced tape to avoid slippage when laced down tight.

I mounted this scope using a mounting of my own design. It replaces the charger bridge at the rear. Its a DT'ed set up but the rifle was a non restorable beater I obtained for the purpose of experimentation.
The alterations worked out so well that its now my go to rifle if serious business comes up. Deadly accurate with no loss of zero when the scope is removed and put back, and a nice folding peep with removable apeture disc for low light work and to act as a ghost ring when moving targets are to be engaged.

I've since figured out a reversable method of securing this sort of mount, that will work if the charger bridge is secured by screws instead of brazing like the later models. Instead of a standard mount screwed to the receiver ring a mount can be afixed to a ring clamp around the barrel ahead of the Knox form. The fore end might need a relief cut there, but a spare sporter stock or a spare fore end and rear handguard could be used when the scope is mounted and replaced by the original wood should the mountings be removed later.

A bit more complicated than the available no gunsmithing mounts, but allowing low over bore mounting or a sturdy mounting for the extra long target scopes.

[challenger_i]

As you plan on reloading, if you have only one rifle in 303, I would suggest neck-size only, so as to get the most life out of your brass.


Thanks for all the replies, I have already leaned a lot about 303's. I am in the process of reading up on the models in preperation for the start up of the gunshow season around Labor Day. I have a set of dies, and some Norma brass as a start to reloading for one, I will be checking the bore very closely as I will be looking for a good shooter.

[M65]

They are all wonderful rifles. I would pick the one with the best bore as many are now quite worn.

As has been stated the No1MkIII has the barrel mounted sights and the No's 4 and 5 (the "jungle carbine") have rear peeps.

There are a few rare variations on this theme but most you will see are these three types.

The Australian Lithgow is my choice for a No1mkIII as the Aussies were fielding this rifle right through the Korean war (and did quite well with it) and many Lithgows were rebarreled and put into storage after Korea, then sold as surplus. They often have excellent bores.

The Longbranch (Canadian) No.4's have a well deserved reputation for build quality and command a premium. A nice Longbranch is a jewel.

The Savage/Stevens made No.4's are really cool US made rifles and hold their value well.

The No. 5 is my favorite and is a must buy if in excellent condition.

[mtgrs737]

Thanks to all who replied with advice on the 303 rifles. The gunshow season starts next month so I will be reading up on them. I like the idea of a peep sight as my eyes are fading. I will post here when I conect with one. Is there a price range that is resonable for one with a really nice barrel?

[Bob in Revelstoke]

For you Lee Enfield shooters here is something to look for at gun shows ect. That is the military issue funnel used for cleaning the barrel when using corrosive ammunition which most of it was. It is made of heavy galvanized steel plate. One side is flat, the remainder of the funnel is curved. The spout is somewhat S shaped and when used it fits into the breach after the bolt is removed. Hot water is poured into the funnel and comes out the muzzle. Very distinctive looking and I have used them in other milsurps when using corrosive ammo. The first one I bought cost me .50 cents and I bought one last year for the magnificent price of $3.00. Inflation is rampant. They do bring many comments when taken to the range along with a thermos of hot water. Especially when someone comments on pouring hot water into a rifle barrel and you reply, What? Isn't that the way you clean a rifle barrel?'

[Multigunner]

There are plastic funnels with long narrow spouts sold at auto supply stores for pouring transmission fluid into hard to reach spouts. The one that I got for my sisters car looked like it would be a good substitute for the funnel you've suggested.

[M65]

Seems like the nicer ones run $250 at a deal to $350 high norm. Sometimes you will see them lower and higher. I paid $350.00 for my No. 5 and they have gone up a bit since then for the really nice ones....now i see them up to around $450.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Although not a military rifle as such, if you like the 303, there are a batch of Ruger No 1s coming out in that chambering.

[JeffinNZ]

Although not a military rifle as such, if you like the 303, there are a batch of Ruger No 1s coming out in that chambering.

Price is a bit steep though Mick. You have to consider that once you get the rifle to relive the British Africa expeditions you need the pith helmet, safari suit and an 'Abbo' to cart your gear round. :bigsmyl2:

Did I say that or just think it?

[enfield]

Jeff, what color pith helmet goes with purple long johns ??

[Four Fingers of Death]

After the hunting I usually clean the guns, put them away, have a feed and sit around the fire and get pith. Are we on the same wavelength here?? :D