Brought home a Springfield 1903 Mark 1

[ilcop22]

Howdy,

Yesterday I picked up a Springfield 1903 Mark 1 milled for the pedersen device. The receiver is numbered 11534XX and is in fair condition. There is quite a bit of pitting on the exterior of the receiver, but the inside is clean. It came with a mint Remington 8-44 2-groove barrel, a Remington bolt, original Springfield trigger group, buttplate and scant style stock.

The pictures show the barrel, the barrel attachment and a not-so-clean pin shaving job. It also shows the worst pitting on the receiver. I'll post some more pictures tomorrow, as it's in pieces right now for the initial teardown/cleaning.

I can't make out the cartouche on the stock. Anyone have info on the oddball Remington parts put on this? Given it's condition and lack of matching parts, it has lost most of its collector's value. I'm assuming it's an arsenal refinish, but the stock doesn't reflect this with any additional cartouches. I appreciate any info. Thanks!

[leadman]

The receiver serial number puts it in the "safe" range from what I know. The barrel is a replacement originally intended for a 1903a3 probably. Remington did make some 1903s, Ii have one, but don't know if any of these were 2 groove, mine is 4? groove.
If the bolt handle is swept back it is a 1903a3 probably. Straight handle it is probably a 1903 Remington. Either way it is a safe bolt to use.
I'm not an expurt but this is what I remember from researching my Remington 1903, 1903a3, and Smith Corona 1903a3.
Here is as site that has alot of specific info on it: www.vishooter.net/m1903.html

With that much pitting on the front of the receiver I would hae a gunsmith take a look at it just to be safe. That is right in front of your face and not where you want to have something come apart.

There are still surplus scant stock on the market so it could have been put on anytime.

[ilcop22]

Regarding the bolt, it's definitely swept back. What puzzles me is it doesn't have any "for sure" markings as listed on Vi Shooter's webpage (I have spent a lot of time on that site in the past). It has an "R" underneath the bolt handle, a 17 with 3 check marks on the rear of the bolt sleeve as well as a faint M or W. Other than that, it has no markings. Additionally, it is blued and not parkered. From what I can tell, its the original bluing.

I am a tad weary about the pitting, despite being told it's safe to shoot. I'm a gunsmith, but I've never dealt with heavy pitting before. Thanks for the help so far!

[Hardcast416taylor]

About 25 years back Sarco, Inc. was selling "parts guns" made up with a Springfield reciever and either surplus new parts or good condition used parts, a copy Springfield stock was put on. They made up both the `03 and 03-A3 models for sale and sold as many as they made very quickly. With the odd assemblage of your rifle, it could possibly be one Sarco made.Robert

[Dutchman]

The barrel is 03A3. Can't be anything else with that late 1944 date and 2 grooves.

However, the rear sight is a 1903(m) Remington. So-called 1903 "modified". The rear sight base has no lightning scallop cuts on each side of the sight. That positively identifies it as a Remington 1903(m) rear sight base. It is *different* than 1903 rear sight bases made by Springfield Armory or Rock Island Armory or the early Remington 1903. See Brophy's book, "The 1903 Springfield Rifles" (a most excellent book).

The ordnance bomb up by the front sight shows the imprint of the center-punch in the little circle. That's a USGI mark indicating a proof firing after the barrel was installed. But I don't believe this barrel was installed by anyone USGI on this receiver due to the barrel being an 03A3 barrel. The 1903 rear sight base requires a spline cut to index the rear sight base on the barrel. The 03A3 barrels did not have this spline cut. Only 1903 barrels.

This highly suggests that this barrel-receiver combo is a result of civilian handling, which would be very common as these rifles and barrels have been in general circulation for many many decades. If the barrel didn't have that center-punch mark in the ordnance bomb I'd say it was a new spare parts barrel that had never been on a rifle before, but the center-punch mark says it came off another rifle, an 03A3. Brophy notes one barrel dated 8-44 as a "spare barrel". (I'd have to dig deeper to 100% verify the center-punch markings).

As for pitting - The pitting on the rear part of the receiver is of no consequence. The pitting on the receiver ring doesn't look bad enough, based on just the photos you're showing. These are nickel-steel receivers and the strongest of all the 1903 receivers. Same as 03A3 receivers they can be bent into a pretzel without breaking. See "Hatcher's Notebook".

1903 and 03A3 rifles in American civilian hands can be found in any configuration. You cannot assume your rifle is the result of US military armorer's handling. The DCM (Director of Civilian Marksmanship, a gov't agency) sold spare parts into the 1970s, until they were gone. All kinds of parts. Remington parts were in abundance for pennies.... literally in some cases. Same goes for the stock. You cannot assume the stock is original to that rifle, especially YOUR rifle with it's hodge-podge of parts. I use to shop gunshows in SoCal for Type C stocks and I'd put them on 03 or 03A3 rifles I had owned. It was common practice. One of my best shooter 03A3 was fitted with a Type C stock.

Show a photo of the stock together where the ejection port is in the left receiver side-wall. A MkI stock should have match up perfectly with that port. A standard 1903 stock will not.

Brophy says the first MkI was s/n 1,034,503 in 1918. Brophy says the highest s/n observed has been 1,197,834. Brophy speculates 145,000 produced 1919-1921.

My first 1903 Springfield was 394,506 December, 1909 in "new" condition in 1968. Cost $35. That was the average price for a nice 1903 then. I choked paying $425 for a high number C stock ex-Greek rifle when they were first offered by CMP. But the 1903 is Americana and one should always take a piece of apple pie to the range and wave the flag when you shoot it.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

Please do some additional photos showing these two areas from both sides and underneath.

http://images54.fotki.com/v1593/photos/2/28344/1676633/IMG_1574xx-vi.jpg

http://images45.fotki.com/v1256/photos/2/28344/1676633/IMG_1572xx-vi.jpg

[ilcop22]

First off, thank you very much for your detailed response. I really appreciate both your effort and expertise.

Regarding the stock, I'm 100% positive it's not original. The only clear marking on it are a flaming bomb on the business end of the stock, the P proof behind the trigger, a "2" or " in a circle, a cartouche thats nearly completely faded and "O" "R" and "Z" stamped inside the stock. I assume it's some 1903, as it has different metal and a different cut than my 1903a3 stock.

The bolt is obviously some kind of Remington and so is the trigger/sear.

I've uploaded some additional pictures as you requested.
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Nosferatu1022/1903/

Please let me know what you think. Thank you.

Addendum: What might you suggest for preventing further pitting?

[Dutchman]

Go over to the military surplus collector's forum and download these first 3 books:
http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112

I donated these to that website. You'll like them. If you have to register go ahead because these are all very good.

United States Rifle, Cal .30, Model 1903 Manual
1911

TM 9-1270 U.S. Rifles, Cal .30, M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3, M1903A4 Sniper Ordnance Maintenance Manual War Department

M1903 - Individual Instruction in Rifle Practice (A.E.F No. 1418 G-5) (1918)
(if reading a book can make you a better rifleman this is the book)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This first one is the flat on the underside of the receiver. This has a smushed area that's the result of poor clamping when the barrel was taken off. Very poor. I'm sure there's been some interference in the stock inletting where this touches. It really needs to be filed off.

http://images50.fotki.com/v1570/photos/2/28344/1676633/IMG_1607xx-vi.jpg

These next two are where the pin goes through the rear sight base and barrel to hold the rear sight base in place. This is where Bubba's skill with a grinder shines though:). He ground down the ends of the *roll* pin. It should be a soild pin but that's a minor detail at this point. The roll pin does the same job.

http://images54.fotki.com/v514/photos/2/28344/1676633/IMG_1613xx-vi.jpg

http://images47.fotki.com/v1473/photos/2/28344/1676633/IMG_1614xx-vi.jpg


Both these areas point to this rebarreling as being very amateur. The result may be entirely adequate but the telltale signs of sloppy work are left over.

You can't do much of anything about the pitting. In order to stop the progress you would have to grind down below the pitting. It's exactly like cancer surgery in that you have to take good flesh below the bad cells in order to insure you get it all. Keep it oiled with Kroil.

I would disassemble the bolt but leave on the extractor. Unscrew the whole bolt sleeve assembly. Now run the bolt in and out of the receiver to make sure there's no binding or rubbing anywhere. The way this receiver was treated it wouldn't surprise me if the receiver got twisted a little bit. Like I said, you can twist one of these nickel steel receivers like a pretzel. I wouldn't worry about the safety so much. I would drop a headspace gage in just to double check Bubba's QC (quality control).

Whether this rifle was assembled by a commercial outfit as was suggested or it was put together by Bubba and his 5 pals during Superbowl Sunday doesn't really matter. As long as the receiver is sound, no cracks, and the bolt headspaces I wouldn't be too concerned with strength or safety.

If this was a low number Springfield this receiver would most likely have broken or cracked where it was clamped up loosely and torqued in a vise. But being nickel-steel... you're lucky. I hope that this examination serves some purpose in that it points up the importance of a little forensic research of all old firearms we acquire. I'm not an expert I've just been around a while and I like being able to make a contribution when I can.

These are what the scalloped lightning cuts look like on the Springfield, Rock Island and early Remington 1903 rear sight bases.

http://images23.fotki.com/v805/photos/2/28344/4859183/sp16-vi.jpg

This is a 1.8 million 1903 Springfield with a High Standard replacement barrel. It does not have the center-punch mark in the center of the ordnance bomb.
http://images24.fotki.com/v801/photos/2/28344/4859183/sp02-vi.jpg

This same rifle also had this Sedgley aluminum buttplate. It came out of a closet in NorCal that I sold for the owner.
http://images23.fotki.com/v806/photos/2/28344/4859183/sp09-vi.jpg


Dutch

[ilcop22]

Dutch,

Thank you again for your exemplary, detailed response. Also, thank you for the link to those books. I look forward to reading them.

I did the bolt check as you described. I tried with the bolt the 03 came with as well as my 03a3 bolt. I didn't notice any binding but there might be a slight rub against the extractor. This was more noticeable with the 03 bolt than the 03a3 bolt.

Regarding the pitting, I definitely have no interest in grinding or bead blasting the receiver, that's for certain. I've been keeping it oiled, so I'll make sure to keep that up. The trigger guard, however, I have begun grinding because it's quite miserable. I think I'll end up ordering a replacement.

My reason for posting this was to get exactly the information you provided. I wasn't about to shoot it without some pointers. I am regretful, though, that I did not remove the firearm from the stock before purchase. Rookie mistake.

[shotman]

Also the bolt The R means remington and the other Is an N for nickel... There is about 65% steel in the nickel that is used in guns The nickles that you carry in your pocket is really Monel

Oh dutch they must have made a bunch of those 7-44 HS barrels thats what is on mine at serial876***

[Dutchman]

These are from the last catalog of Martin B. Retting in Culver City, Calif. They were one of the better known gunshops that dealt in antique firearms and vintage military firearms. I lived in SoCal at the time so I'd been there a few times. January 1, 1969 was the day of implementation of the Gun Control Act of 1968. That's why this original catalog is so interesting.

http://images35.fotki.com/v1197/photos/2/28344/157842/r002-vi.jpg

03A3 "brand new" $50. The 03A3 was, to many, like a last ditch rifle as the machining was rough and it just wasn't a *real* 1903 Springfield as it wasn't built at Springfield Armory. I bought two *new* 03A3 for $50 each at Western Surplus Store on Lankershim Blvd in North Hollywood in 1970. Around the corner and down the street was a small gunshop that I use to visit. I recall, vividly, their rack of rifles in the middle of the shop and among them were 8 to 10 new-in-grease Model 1917 rifles for $35 each. The M1917 was not a desirable rifle as it was ugly as sin and who'd want one when you could have a genuine USGI 1903 Springfield for only a few bucks more.
http://images17.fotki.com/v274/photos/2/28344/157842/r001-vi.jpg

And just for the sake of making everybody sick to their stomach...

Swedish m/41 sniper $72.50

http://images9.fotki.com/v448/photos/2/28344/1676633/Martin_Retting_1968b-vi.jpg

http://images19.fotki.com/v315/photos/2/28344/1676633/ng_1968e_bmp801603745448906191-vi.jpg

http://images19.fotki.com/v315/photos/2/28344/1676633/g_1968f_bmp6550594491093580377-vi.jpg

http://images17.fotki.com/v4/photos/2/28344/1676633/g_1968g_bmp7883267350457009667-vi.jpg

<sniffle sniffle> :|

[leadman]

Thanks for the info on this rifle Dutch. I saved the website with the books you donated for reading later. Thanks for that also.

It is amazing what has been done to firearms over the years. I have many old gun magazines and drool over the barrels for $2.00!

[NoDakJak]

Dutchman: That sure brings back memories. I was sationed in California from 1958 thru 1967 and most although certainly not all of my dealings were with "Ye Olde Western Hunter" and "Century Arms". I owned perhaps a dozen Springfields during that time ranging from a low number O3 with a shot out barrel to several 1903a3s that were still in their original cosmoline. The latter were $39.95 for many years. My Springfields never stuck around long as friends seemed to need them worse than I did. I actually always preferred the 1917 Enfield. It was offered new in the cosmoline for a meager $29.95 and almost always shot better than the Springfield. I much preferred the 7X57 cartridge and owned a flock of 1893 and 95 Mausers. I like these rifles and still shoot one but gave my best to my oldest grandson about ten years ago. Quality on most of these varied from good t excellent. During the early sixties a lot came on the market at rerduced prices. These were produced during the Spanish Civi war. I looked at perhaps a dozen that had severe corrosion pits on the reciever and several that had what appeared to be occlusions forged into tthe reciever. I wish now that I had purchased several of these as parts guns but when your take home pay is only about a hundred dollars you just can't induge your fancy ike that.
Well, so much for my wandering this morning this morning. Neil

[ilcop22]

I was born a couple decades too late to have experienced such low prices. I think I would go into anaphylactic shock if I could purchase rifles at those prices.

I've considered selling her for a parts gun, given the condition. Admittedly, I'd love to take the barrel it came with off and slap it on my 03a3, but I don't have the tools for that. It's the best condition milsurp barrel I own, save for maybe the M1.

[mroliver77]

ilcop,
I would not be ashamed of owning this one as long as the headspace is acceptable. We are lucky that there are so many still floating around. I kinda like "mutt" guns as you don't have to worry so much about a scratch or ding. Sometimes these "mixmasters" have a lot of heart and shoot better than they ought to. :)
Jay

[merlin101]

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Dutch. I used to look at those adds and dream of what I'd shoot with my gun (once I was old enough to buy it) then life moved on! I only got to buy one of the guns listed and still have it. Paid a whopping $60 for a Argentine Mauser 7x57 on a sporter stock:-(

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Wow Dutch, thanks for all the info; the upload links especially and the ads from '69 - great "blast from the past" :)

The barrel in your photo:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24236&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1280904869

I have a few just like it, with the bursting bomb on it. My Dad bought a box of 10 of those barrels from the DCM back around 1962-1963 for the princely sum of $0.93/ea. Since they were replacement barrels, I can only assume that they were proofed at the Remington plant, and stamped there immediately before Parkerizing.

People screamed bloody murder when they jacked the price of the barrels up to $1.03 not long afterwards. I still have the receipt for the barrels around here, along with a few of the barrels - some still in the original wrappings and Cosmolene.

Around the same time, the price of a 1st class postage stamp went from $0.02 to $0.03. I don't know how they avoided riots in the streets; people were FURIOUS!

Those M1917 Rifles, .30 Caliber (aka Enfields) made great foundations for sporter rifles. Both my Grandfather and my Dad sporterized one each. When Dad passed on last February, I was glad to give my Uncle Larry (Dad's brother) Granddad's sporterized Enfield (along with an 1850's Rogers & Spencer .44 cap & ball Dad told me the day before he passed on that Larry was to get it).

I had my Mom sell my Dad's sporterized Enfield. He had another Enfield that was perfect except for a small chip in the stock by the bolt handle. I'm very glad to have one in nearly original condition. And yeah, they are ugly as sin ;)

He also left me an original Springfield M1903 in the 68x,xxx range, and an "S"-stocked M1903A3 that he'd started to sporterize - but I'd ruined that plan when I butchered his blank walnut stock when I was a 10-year-old. It's barrel was turned "in the white", and the bolt handle was straightened and polished. Fortunately, stripped bolts w/bolt handles are still easy to get ahold of, and I have some pristine WWII barrels to install.

Gotta get my "C"-stocked 03A3 National Match re-barreled too...

[Dutchman]

I was born a couple decades too late to have experienced such low prices. I think I would go into anaphylactic shock if I could purchase rifles at those prices.


In 1968 I got my first job at age 17. Pumping gas for $1.50 an hour. I also got 5 cents for each quart can of oil I sold. I worked 12 hours on saturday and 12 hours on sunday plus some hours during the week plus going to school the normal hours. Such was the drudgery of teenage life in the late 60s.

Dutch

[Chainsaw2]

A friend gave me a 1903 that fell into the Plao Duro canyon and broke the front recoil lug off at an angle leaving about half of it, and the screw only engages a couple of threads. Can this be repaired? Could it be milled off and a bbl mounted sliding style removable recoil lug be used in fron of the action? I just want a shooter out of the deal.

jim

[Bob S]

The barrel is indeed an 03A3 barrel. No two-groove barrels were ever made for the '03, only for the 03A3. The late date (post January, 1944) puts it in the first or second Remington "spare parts" contract. I bought several from the DCM from the 60's until as late as the mid 1980's. The price then was 98 cents.


Either the barrel has been reduced in diameter to get the '03 rear sight fixed base in it, or the fixed base has been opened up by boring to make it fit, or a combination of both.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Echo]

I love this forum!