Rust Bluing help needed!

[broomhandle]

Hi All,

I have spent 30 hours refinishing a really rusty S&W model 10, that I sold to a guy years ago. He left it in a gym bag in an open jeep, for a few rain storms in humid Ga..

I filed, stoned & polished it ,all the lines are flat.No dishing at the screw holes,I have a few deep pin hole size pits that are too deep to work on.:( (Ican live with it)

Iwant to rust blue this pistol, if it works well .I want to do a C-96 Broomhandle next.
What is the best rust blue on the market, any tips on working with this stuff?
I think the Belgian blue from Brownells looks like the best to me.

Any & all help is welcome.

Thanks,
broom

[Bent Ramrod]

Broomhandle,

Sorry I can't help on the commercial preparations. Have no experience with them as I always whomped up some on my own in the Chem lab using some of the formulations in Angier's book. I would think that anything that grows a healthy coat of rust in a humid environment in a few hours is OK. Pilkington's or Belgian Blue should be equally effective.

The important things are the evenness of the humidity in the rusting chamber, the amount of care you take in checking the progress of the rusting between boilings and cardings, the judgement you exercise in determining how many passes is enough, and your surface finish and your ability to keep the metal and everything that touches it chemically clean through the process. I've only done three guns and a couple more barrels, but each time the procedure was a 5-day siege of fretting and tension. Twice a day I took the parts out, boiled or steamed them, carded them with steel wool, recoated and put them back. They turned out all right, with no bald spots from undetected oil nor bluing solution in the bore to ruin the rifling, but I now have a couple of guns "in-the-white" that really need rust bluing but I find I keep putting off the procedure. Too many other irons in the fire, don't-cha-know:roll: .

I was able to boil the frames and internal parts in an enamelled roasting pan, but, as I had no tank, I used a whistling tea kettle (with whistle removed but cover with hole left on the spout) as a steam source, turning and passing the barrel past it. A lot of rusty water goes all over the floor using this makeshift, but I could see the brown rust turn black and get the color completely changed over before carding. Saved me the complication of getting a tank and burner for something I was going to do but seldom. With pistols, the roasting pan should suffice. You'll need some latex exam gloves, some clean real cotton pads and make sure whatever brush or steel wool you use for carding is degreased same as your gun parts. I always gave the bore a generous coat of RIG grease and drove hardwood dowels into each end, degreasing the assembly again after that. The teakettle dodge kept the heat down so I didn't have to worry about internal pressure popping the dowels out or the bore grease getting out into a tank.

I used taped-up dry cleaner bags with some damp sponges inside for my bluing chamber and hung the parts off frames made of tinker toys put into the bags. Inside this bag was sufficient humidity during an Arizona summer to get a solid coat of fine rust on the parts twice a day.

The quality of the rust is important. It has to be a very fine even covering, just too heavy to be considered a patina. If you leave the parts to rust too long, the fine red-brown powder becomes coarser and the underlying metal shows tiny pits which become larger as the rust particles above them become larger. Also, if you make too many passes (a pass is one application/rusting/carding), the shiny finish you started with will become duller. I always wanted to try to take advantage of this and do the top flat of an octagon barrel or receiver ring one pass too many, to give a matted finish, but invariably by that time, I just wanted the ordeal to be over. Generally I went one pass too far (in retrospect) but the slightly duller finish looked OK. Here you really need experience. Most of the books describe this as an 8-day process but I found 5 was about as much as was needed.

It's very difficult to gauge when the metal is "done," as the finish will be a sort of charcoal gray that shows after the second pass and gets marginally deeper with each pass until it is oiled up after the last one. I was only able to get a bluish highlight by putting copper sulfate into the rusting formulation. Without this, the finish was an intense black. The books say if you do it right, the blackened rust particles are so small they reflect only the blue end of the visible light spectrum, giving a blue highlight, the way cigarette smoke appears blue in white light. Maybe twice a day gave too coarse a particle size for this effect. I sure didn't want to do it three times a day. The black is very handsome, even if it isn't blue.

All this said, rust blue finish seems to build up from the pores of the metal to the surface, making a really thick, wear resistant coating (for a bluing), compared to the hot salt cooking type blues that seem to cover from the outside in. If you don't mind the work, there's really nothing like rust blue.

Good luck and please let us know how your bluing session goes.

[Four Fingers of Death]

This was an article that I copied from an earlier post:

Friends Bramble and Savage, Rust bluing is a very old and simple process and works best if the metal is not overly polished because you want it to rust.
In the case of the link,I draw filed the Engraving ( gulp) out followed by 220 and 320 grit wet or dry paper. You clean the part GOOD with asatone or wash with hot water and dish soap and dry.
You were wearing rubber gloves to clean the part and will not touch the part again with a bare hand until it is done.
Next you swab on the rust blueing solution with a cotton ball , The solution is an acid and in early america they used human urine and a few drops of laundry bluing to cut the surface tension and make it level well.
The bluing acid goes on very lightly, 4 drops will cover an entire barrel. I used Pilkingtons Classic American Rust Blue from Brownells
but there are many others available and all I have tried work well.
After applying the acid, you hang the part in a damp warm area to let it rust.
After about three hr. you will have a dull red rusty mess. The rust should be fine grained and completely ugly.
Take your part and boil it in a clean stainless pot suspended by wires so the part is not in direct contact with the pan bottom. Use distilled water and boil for 10 min.
Let the part dry or blow off with compressed air and then card off the loose Velvet with 0000 steel wool that you have washed in assetone to remove the oil (from production and to prevent rust)
This process is done over and over untill the finish is what you want.
Rust bluing is very simple and very satisfying and durable finish,
just the best!!!
Order in some from Brownells, Midway,etc. it comes with complete instructions. Test it on scrap metal,banding material,old parts etc.
I have a sweat box that I built that speeds things up as I can control the temp and humidity quite well.
Have fun!

Chuck 100 yd

I forgot Abeline, Actually I didn’t forget It wasn’t there when I started that long post.
I did forget to say that boiling the part turns the red rust into a black oxide and after 4-6 coats is the beautiful rust blue that gunsmiths charge hundreds of $ for. You can do it at home in your spare time.

Chuck 100 yd
Steve and Duff, The pot only needs to be large enough to cover the part with water. I hang the parts from unplated iron wire just above the bottom and boil for 10 min.
I will take pics of my sweat box but it is just a virtical box about 6 ft. tall with a door in the side and a compartment in the bottom with a small door to access the lower part.a light bulb is mounted on the inside of the door and one at the bottom with a small pan held just above the bottom 150 wat bulb. Both bulbs are on dimmer switches. the light bulb inside the door warms the box and the bulb on the bottom heats the pan of water to make it humid inside. I can maintain 90% humidity and 90-100 deg.inside to make the parts rust fast. I will post a picture tomarrow.

Chuck 100 yd

[Topper]

Would like to add to the very good advice that has already been posted. There are only commercial formulas I have used. One is Marl Lee's Express Blue offered from Brownells. It's quick, in that the bluing can be completed in one day versus several, and its pretty durable.
You still have to boil the part/parts in water and card between each application.
Here's a couple of examples of the results:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/Topper_1950/Protect.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/Topper_1950/Bottom.jpg

He also markets a slow rust blue formula, end results should look similar to the Mauser bolt below. As stated already, you have to CAREFULLY monitor part between applications.
This bolt was bare metal and always spot rusting, no mater how much tried to keep it clean. I gave in and used the slow rust formula on it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/Topper_1950/Blued.jpg
If you decide on the slow rust method (most durable) and you cannot locate the formula, send me a PM and I'll see if I can't dig up Mark's contact info.

[Denver]

I've been thinking about trying this myself on a couple guns I have. Brownells also sell a stainless wire wheel that is used for carding. I thought of getting one of these and running it at slow speed in the drill press. Any thoughts on this?

:Fire:

[Topper]

Denver,
The wire wheel will definitely speed things up, especially for smaller parts. Just don't loss them. The previous post by 4fingermick & bentramrod have provided some very good information.
I always coat the bore with oil, then plug it tightly with wooden dowels that have been tapered for a tight fit before degreasing the barrel. Reason - the bluing literally attacks the metal, and as noted, will pit if not watched closely. If, by chance, the metal suffers pitting, the gun will have a parkerized appearance from the bluing, but at least the bore will still be smooth.
Another good degreaser that I didn't see mentioned is Simple Green.
For small parts, you can make a basket using wire screen and an office stapler to hold them when boiled.
Good luck with your project.

[Ricochet]

I've been experimenting on an old Turk Mauser barrel. The method I've used is to clean the metal really well with solvent and detergent, wipe it down with printed circuit board etching solution (ferric chloride), let it sit till it gets a nice coat of red rust on it, put it down in a piece of capped 4" PVC pipe, fill that with boiling water off the stove, let it sit 15 minutes or so, dry it off, card it and repeat. I need to get back on it (I interrupted the process a while back when I went on a trip and never resumed it) and see how it looks when finally oiled. I've got the gunmetal gray appearance.

If I can get this to come out well, I'll reblue my Persian Mauser that had the exposed blue taken off by some substance it was wiped with. Also took off most of the stock finish and left a sticky gum. I refinished the stock with clear nitrocellulose lacquer. (Persians had a varnish or lacquer on them.) If reblued, this rifle would look like the "unissued" ones Samco sells.

[Topper]

Richochet,
That is an excellent idea on the PVC pipe for long barrels.
I'll have to give that a try;)

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replys!
I sent for the supplys last week from Brownells.I went for the Herters Orignal Belgian blue.
The Brownell tech, mentioned that the Mark Lane blue was highly recomended.

So with luck, I will start working on it this week.I have about three pages of notes about all the things you fellows mentioned.
I think, I will go over the revolver one more time. I started fooling with 1000 grit paper but i'm afraid I'll have a problem with such a fine finish.
Not sticking correctly?
I think I will call Herters when the stuff comes in to see what they recomend.

This old S&W M-10 had that old style deep blue black. I hope to make her look good again.

Thanks AGAIN for your help,
broom