Gewehr 88

[StarMetal]

There is an article on this rifle in the new Shooting Times. I think there are some discrepensies in it. As you know the 88 first came out for use with the 7.9x57J (by the was the J is said to stand for Infanterie and it's because in Gothic script the leter I looks like a J) in which the bullet is .318. The along in the article when the Germans switched to the .323 bullet in the 7.9x57 the author says after 1905 the German modified the 88 rifle for the new bullet by relieving the throat of the barrel and modifyling the rear sights and then stamping an "8" on the receiver. The test rifle he borrowed from a friend was an 1891 model from Erfurt and it had the "S" stamped on the receiver, but yet he said he fired the .318 ammo in that he got from Old Western Scrounger. Wonder what gives? Also in such an old rifle design wouldn't it have been dangerous to fire .323 bullets out of barrel designed for the .318 bullets? Wonder if the author got this wrong and part of the modifications were a larger bore too rather then just relieving the throat. Anyone know anything about this?

Joe

[PAT303]

In Olson's book mauser rifles it makes mention that early .318 bored rifles were long throated and had reamed out necks to accepted .323 rounds but it was not recommended by mauser. It states that the smaller bore diamater gave better accuracy which is why it was still used. Converted rifes gave acceptable accuracy what ever that means. PAT

[StarMetal]

Interesting...thanks

Joe

[floodgate]

Joe:

I noted that, too, and wondered if either he or the Editor scrambled things a bit. I'm touchy on the subject: my Dad brought a nice little scoped Mannlicher-style rifle on a '98 action home from WWII. He took it to Pachmayr's in L.A. to repair the stock that had been cracked in shipping, and asked for the correct ammunition. Some klutz there took a look at the full-length stock and butter-knife bolt handle, and sold him a pre-war box of Western 8mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer, and Dad gave me the rifle, ammo and several books (the start of my current arms library) to learn on. I got off two shots, with hellacious recoil and badly-distorted cases (I'm a s - l - o - w learner, but I DO learn!) and then set it aside for further study. Not only was it a true Model 98 (with a huge dovetail cut into the top receiver ring for the claw-mount scope), and NOT a Mannlicher, but the action was marked on the left side rail "Mod. 88. 8". Yep! The barrel was cut for the older M88 8 x 57 J with the 0.318" groove diameter. Firing an 8 x 56 M-S in an 0.323" 8 x 57 JS barrel is bad enough; but in the smaller bore......Geez!!!

[Edit:] Pat's quote from Olson's book probably explains why the original owner had it cut for the older round.

I had it rebarreled and opened up the magazine for .30-'06, but never really trusted it; finally traded it in on the first Ruger flattop .44 Magnum that came to town, back in 1956.

Doug

[Buckshot]

..............That's the reason American made factory 8x57 ammo was loaded to 38,000 psi. If fired in the smaller .318" grooved barrels it would still be safe. I bought a M88 many many years ago that had been given to the Turks as military aid. It has all the mods (S stamp, ground action ring to clear spitzers, brazed on charger lips, modified mag for charger loading) yet it retains the barrel jacket.

I admit to not having slugged it, but did shoot it with .323" sized cast slugs and it shot very well. Since the jacket remains, without checking it may still retain the .318" barrel. The thing looks like a toad. The rear sight leaf was absent so I used a 1903 Springfield rear sight leaf (only required very light modification) in it's place. The old beater is on my list of things to do as I think as a sporter in a Mannlicher stock it would be much more attractive.

I also have a fully 'Turked' M88, below:

http://www.fototime.com/CDBFBF007F1D86B/standard.jpg

It too has had all the mods, new barrel and the Turkish military placed it in a M38 stock. Very slick, shoots like an essobee, but weighs a ton.

................Buckshot

[NickSS]

I've owned two Gew 88s one was an unmodified german rifle in almost new condition. It used the mannlicher charger clips and required 318 diameter bullets. I shot it with both jacketed and cast bullets until a friend talked it out of me in a trade a number of years ago. I also had a turkish one that had no barrel jacket and was stamped with a big S on the reciever ring. It also was modified to use mauser stripper clips. This particular rifle had groove diameter of .323". The barrel on it looked a lot like a standard Gew 98 barrel but it took the turkish bayonet that fit the turkish 93 Mousers like the one in 7.65 Mouser I had at one time. It also shot well with any ammo I put through it.

[StarMetal]

Doug,

My Dad's best friend had two rifles brought back from WWII, one was a Mannlicher Shoenaur 8x56 with a German claw mounted the scope. The other was a 98 Mauser with tappered octogon ribbed barrel, also with claw mount, but minus both the mount and scope. He and his wife couldn't have children and they sort of "adopted" me, especially when my Mother pasted away at an early age for me. I had told Butch that if he ever sold those rifles I'd be honored to buy them. I even got his Mannlicher shooting again as he couldn't find any ammo at that time. I used 8x57 Mauser brass and had to mill the web section down to get them to size down. I also got his 98 Mauser going again as he had lost the magazine floorplate. When he died the rifles got given to a non-hunting non-shooting nephew. Such is life.

Buckshot,

I shoult have known you'd have just about every rifle made that has that "racy looking" underbelly magazine. You love em.

Joe

[KCSO]

I had a Kar 88 with a shiney, but worn bore that shot 324 cast better than any rifle I have ever had. With factory HUNTING sights the gun shot every time under 2" at 100 yards. I foolishly traded it for a GEW 88 with a mint bore that i ended up giving to my dad for a wall hanger. My Kar came from Sears in the 1930's and was sold with a gold bead front sight as a GERMAN HUNTING RIFLE. The fellow who bought it paid $16.00 for it and that was a good chunk of money in those days. He used the rifle with Remington and surplus military ammo till I bought it from him about 10 years ago. He sold it cause it was kicking him too hard. I figure that Kar had sot upwards of 200 rounds of the wrong size ammo and most of it was WW2 surplus. I never shot the gun with anything over 12.5 of Red Dot.

[StarMetal]

Well apparently they must have been well made and fairly strong rifles, thank God.

Joe

[floodgate]

Western also loaded - before WWII at least - an 8mm round labeled "8mm Mannlicher AND Mauser". I don't have an example, but I gather it was made with a rather heavy case with compromise dimensions that would let it chamber in the Mannlicher, with a light charge that wouldn't blow the case in a Mauser, and an undersized bullet with a soft, thin jacket that would accomodate either bore size, at least "pretty well". Can you imagine anyone doing that today?

floodgate

[bruce drake]

I've owned several M88s in my relatively new collecting history. Some of Gibbs Rifle Company's Ecuadorean M88s look like shinola on the outside but whe you scraped the external rust and gunk and grim off them I found two with brand new CZ manufactured barrels in the .323 chambering. Granted they still required the en-bloc clip that the standard M88 required but they sure shot pretty when I had them. I Parted out four and Sold two complete and kept one for the collection.

Like Buckshot said. Some of them still can shoot like the essobeees.

Bruce

[Bob S]

Well apparently they must have been well made and fairly strong rifles, thank God.

Joe

Strong? Don't push your luck. There is less meat in the receiver than a small-ring Mauser, and it has other weaknesses as well. Among them is a miniscule recoil lug. The pic is a Turked '88 that was undoubtedly fired with the Turk 7.92 x 57 ammo that is pretty universally regarded as "hot", even for a '98 action. The arrow indicates the crack in the recoil lug.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/G88crackedlugA.jpg

In defense of the seller, he didn't know the rifle was unsafe to shoot, as the front bedding screw was rusted solid in it's seat. I replaced the receiver on this rifle when you could get a stripped receiver from Numerich for $10, and it is a fine cast shooter now.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a German '88 barrel with a .318 groove diameter. I have yet to find one. I still own 7 or 8 of these things and all of mine (except the M1935 Turk modification) mike out between .320 and .321. A good reference for the confusing time line of the development and subsequent modifications of these rifles in German Service is John Walter's book, "The German Rifle". The very first barrels had a groove diameter that approached the bullet diameter (which was abit bigger than .318), but frequent burst barrels in the first year of service prompted the Germans to increase the groove depth while keeping the bore diameter (and bullet diamter) the same. This made the bullets slightly undersized for the barrel dimensions, but this was quite common in the early days of smokeless powder, as pressures frequently did unoredicatble things with the first smokeless powders. The .303 had the same mis-match 'til it's dying day.
The external contour of the barrel was also increased at some point. If you've ever seen an "original" barrel, you'd swear it was seamless drawn tubing. They are *that* thin.

When the Germans modified the '88 for spitzer ammunition, only the throat *and the case neck* were modified to accept the larger diameter bullet and case neck. The throat was long and tapered to squeeze down the .323 slug, but the Germans recognized that this was only an expedient, and infact they issued more 88's without the "S" mod then with in the first part of the Great War (see next paragraph). The Turk M1935 modifications included new stocks and typical "Mauser" profile barrels of the 1893 pattern, with the correct internal dimensions for Patrone 1905 cartridge and bullet. The action, however, is really a 40KSI action.

Anyone ever see the 1914 German mod with a closed bottom magazine that pops the en bloc clip out the top, like an M1? I've got one. It's pretty slick.

These things are great cast shooters, if the bore is decent. For shooting Jacketed stuff, the Speer 170 grain .321 bullet works really well.

I need to make room in my safe, so I will be unloading a few of mine in the near future, if anyone is interested. I actually need to go and count them, 'cuz I don;t remember how many I've got!!!.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[EDG]

I once owned a Kar88 and it slugged .3205. The receiver was S marked.

[newfoundlander]

Although they don't pop up that often some of the CZ rebarrelled '88s that made it to Central and South America slug out to .317!!! Many of these guns have an "S" on the receiver from earlier Imperial German "upgrades" but were rebarreled for overseas sales so the end user could take advantage of cheaper surplus/obsolete .318 military ball. Although some folks claim that there are some Turkish '88s with CZ made barrels (not the later reworks with Mauser profile stocks) that also mic out to .317 I can't vouch for this. Most CZ barrels I've come across however are indeed .320-321.