K98k with 3-12x32 scope

[Dutchman]

Didn't seem to be any measurable difference between .323" and .325" diameter. The loads weren't identical but very close. I need to put some Lyman 323470 through this rifle now to compare. If I can't get this rifle to group better it may end up with a new commercial barrel and stock. It's been Yugo'fied and de'nazi'fied anyway so it doesn't really have any significant collectible value (my justification).

First time shooting this rifle with this scope. I may put this scope back on the m/38 Swede as it just fits the Swede better, height-wise.

http://images19.fotki.com/v678/photos/4/28344/8945429/014x-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v237/photos/4/28344/8945429/013x-vi.jpg

http://images112.fotki.com/v599/photos/4/28344/8945429/DSCF2003p-vi.jpg

http://images17.fotki.com/v313/photos/4/28344/8945429/DSCF2005p-vi.jpg

[izzyjoe]

it looks like it grouped better with the 170gr. lee. that ain't a bad lookin' rifle, i've been thinkin' about getting me a yugo and scope'n it just for a truck/shop gun.:lovebooli

[Ben]

Looking closely at the 2nd group, those holes don't look round to me. Is there a stability problem with the bullets ?

[izzyjoe]

sure enough they do look odd ,especialy that flier to the right.

[Jim Sheldon]

That's a nice looking Mauser.

My Russian capture 98K seems to do much better with the Lee .329, 205 grain GC which I size down to .325 in the first step, relube and resize down to .323 in the final step. They shoot okay at .325, but I get ragged one hole groups out of them at .323 & 50 yards.

Load is 13.5 grains of IMR Trail Boss, Federal 30-06 cases reformed into 8mm and Winchester WLR primers. Gas checks are currently Hornady commercial, but I'm getting a Checkmaker die from PatMarlins.com and will be making my own aluminum ones when he gets the 32/8mm dies in stock.

From what I've read, most of the 98K Mauser barrels were supposedly regulated for the 197/198 grain FMJ boat tail bullets, and the heavier 205 grain cast gives me much better accuracy than the Lee 170 grain cast or the commercial case 32 special bullets. (I tried both before finding the info on the heavier bullets and switching.) I've got some saved targets around here somewhere and I'll post pix if I can find them.

I used the no-gunsmithing ATI scope mount and a Chinese clone of the Sightron sniper scope on it. So far it's holding zero nicely and gets all sorts of comments at the range - :mrgreen:

[Ben]

Jim :

Pics Man, Pics...........

We would love to see some pics.

Ben

[Jim Sheldon]

Jim :

Pics Man, Pics...........

We would love to see some pics.

Ben

Workin' on it. Looking for the targets so can post along with the rifle pix.

[Ben]

Here is an 8 X 57 mm Sporter that I built recently.
It shoots the Lee 230 gr. bullet pretty well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/8%20X%2057%20mm%20Sporter/1605.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/8%20X%2057%20mm%20Sporter/3333.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/8%20X%2057%20mm%20Sporter/531.jpg

[Jim Sheldon]

Suweet! Pretty rifle. I kept mine pretty much military, just inlet the stock to clear the scope mount barrel clamp and installed a Timney trigger. It's been de-nazified but the Russkis must have liked the barrel as they didn't change it out. They did change the stock and some of the bolt parts. The Waffenamt numbers and Mfr # show it made by Lubecker Berliner Maschinenfabrik in 1940. The original receiver and barrel serial numbers match and the barrel stamp indicates it's original to the receiver. The barrel slugs right at .3219 and that's probably why it likes the .323's better than .325's, even in the heavier bullets.

http://members.cox.net/asheldon/98kscoped.jpg

I did a comparison target using the 170 grain Lee bullet sized .325 and the 205 grain Lee bullet sized .323.
I had run the 170 sized .323 as well, and it shot about the same so I didn't include it on this target. My barrel
stabilizes the heavier bullets (over 190 grain) much better than 180 grain or lighter.

http://members.cox.net/asheldon/98Kboolitcompare.jpg

[Ben]

Group # 2 CANNOT be argued with.

Care to share your load data on Group # 2 ?

Great Shooting !

Ben

[Larry Gibson]

Here's my Yugo 24/47 with a Leupold 6x w/target knobs. The wires wrapped around the scope are attached to the strain gauge for pressure measurements. The group test was with Turk cases that had the bullets and powder pulled for use elsewhere. I NS'd them and used a M-die to flair the case mouth. Bullets are from the 190 gr GB mould. Lube is Javelina. The 100 yard test was to determine if my home made GCs were as accurate as Hornady's, they were. Both groups were shot from a clean bore so I tracked the first 2 fouler shots to see how far out of the group they were. then I fired 10 shots for "record". I had about 400+ of these cases and then loaded them up. They made for a great walk about load for my M48 with a Lyman SMJ receiver sight on it. If I lost a case I didn't have to worry about it. I did pick up all I could though as I don't like leaving any trash about. They shot great to about 400 yards which was as far as I tried them.

Larry Gibson

[Jim Sheldon]

Group # 2 CANNOT be argued with.
Care to share your load data on Group # 2 ?
Great Shooting !
Ben

Load data is as follows:

Bullets cast from wheel weight alloy, Water quenched - BHN 23 (SAECO tester).
Mold Lee 329-205-1R, Nominal weight as cast 207 grains sized to .323 in 2 steps (.325 and then .323), seated .005 off the lands, actual OAL not measured.
Gas checks - Hornady commercial 32 caliber, copper.

Cases - Federal 30-06 reformed to 8mm X 57 Mauser using a RCBS Trim/form die.
Powder - 13.5 grains IMR Trail Boss
Primers - Winchester WLR

Anything else you need to know, just ask.

Jim

[Ben]

Very Impressive !

[Jim Sheldon]

Forgot to mention, boolits were tumble lubed with Lee liquid alox cut 50-50 with mineral spirits. Dries overnight and so far I haven't had any leading problems with it.

[Jim Sheldon]

Here's my Yugo 24/47 with a Leupold 6x w/target knobs. The wires wrapped around the scope are attached to the strain gauge for pressure measurements. The group test was with Turk cases that had the bullets and powder pulled for use elsewhere. I NS'd them and used a M-die to flair the case mouth. Bullets are from the 190 gr GB mould. Lube is Javelina. The 100 yard test was to determine if my home made GCs were as accurate as Hornady's, they were. Both groups were shot from a clean bore so I tracked the first 2 fouler shots to see how far out of the group they were. then I fired 10 shots for "record". I had about 400+ of these cases and then loaded them up. They made for a great walk about load for my M48 with a Lyman SMJ receiver sight on it. If I lost a case I didn't have to worry about it. I did pick up all I could though as I don't like leaving any trash about. They shot great to about 400 yards which was as far as I tried them.

Larry Gibson
When I first saw the wire around the scope & fore end, I was thinking "Bubba's" scope mount but then I read the text - :lol:

What type of data are you collecting from the strain gauge?

Jim

[Dutchman]

When you have too many rifles to *work* with something gets left behind. I have 4 rifles that are 8mm that I've been *working* with..

- K98k above
- Gewehr 98 with LER scope
- Persian 98/29 with LER scope
- 8x58RD Swedish rolling block

I have 4 boolits of 8mm size.
- Lyman 323470 165 gr @ .324" (purchased), .325" and sized to .323"
- Lyman 323471 215 gr @ .324" (purchased)
- Lee 170 gr RN @ .325" and sized to .323"
- 170 gr RCBS flat nose .323" (purchased)

The Lyman 323470 and 170 gr RCBS have so far been the best bullets though the heavy 323471 is doing very well in the Persian 98/29 with it's near-new condition barrel. Lyman 323470 has produced a 10 shot one hole group at 50 yds in the Swedish rolling block using Marble tang sight.

The K98k has been on the bottom of the list due to swapping scopes around. So far the K98k is the least accurate of the 4 rifles. When I installed the Tasco 3-12x32 I expected some propensity for error to evaporate with the vastly improved X ring potential. But this was only the first outing with this scope on the K98k. I need to shoot the K98k with the Lyman 215 gr to see if the heavier bullet will make a difference. The end play may be that this K98k gets rebarreled and restocked as a ~custom~ rifle. It's looking more possible for that if the accuracy doesn't improve. (it isn't a matter of accuracy "improving" as much as my ability to find the load that produces better accuracy.)

Of the other 8mm rifles the old ratty Gewehr 98 and Persian are proving to be way more accurate than I would've thought. These 2 rifles now both have 2-7x32 NcStar LER scopes that are decent enough at 50 yds for tight groups.

I've not slugged the bore in any of these rifles except the rolling block which came in at .324". I just started loading for them and the ones that were accurate, or more accurate, are the ones that floated to the surface on their own merit.

Jim - you can't argue with one hole groups. I will refer to your data and experience in the future with 8x57 and see if it improves my results in the K98k.

LarryG - duct tape! That's what I thought. I hope you also used some bailing wire and then covered the wire with duct tape as exposed bailing wire is so unsightly:).

Ben - what do you mean your 8mm sporter shoots the 205 gr "pretty well"? Dohhh! One hole for 5 shots rates a little better than "pretty well", don't ya think?

Leupold scope mount - First time that I've used the Leupold setup. It makes for a real nice scope mounting. It has a little bit of an older German sniper rifle look to it.

Dutch

[Jim Sheldon]

Dutch,
If you haven't already, check some of the other forums for data on IMR Trail Boss. It's amazing stuff and really works well with cast rifle boolits. It was originally designed for "Cowboy Action" loads for the 44/40 and .45 Colt but after much experimenting and people busting the original rules, Hodgdon (IMR's current owner) has opened the door and said use it for literally anything. If there's no published data, you can actually make up your own. Just don't compress the stuff as it causes erratic burn rates.

Max load - fill the case to just where the base of a seated bullet (either cast or jacketed, no matter - and the bullet weight is also immaterial), weigh that charge and call it your MAX. Now, take 70% of that and call it the minimum suggested starting load (you can go less with no fears as like 2400 it doesn't appear to be position sensitive) but they claim somewhere between the 70% and 100% points you'll find the accuracy sweet spot for that given boolit. Fun stuff to play with for sure. It works well from .32 handgun up to 600 nitro express, go figure!~

Oh yeah, the felt recoil is about that of an AR-15 and the muzzle blast is not much worse than an unsuppressed .22 handgun on an indoor range.
Jim

[ilcop22]

Dutchman,

Did you polish the bolt (Im assuming its an RC)?

[Ben]

Dutch :

Q Ben - what do you mean your 8mm sporter shoots the 205 gr "pretty well"? Dohhh! One hole for 5 shots rates a little better than "pretty well", don't ya think?

A. All I ever said about my rifle was this :

Here is an 8 X 57 mm Sporter that I built recently.
It shoots the Lee 230 gr. bullet pretty well

I don't own a mold that cast a 205 gr. 8 mm cast bullet.
The group that I show that was shot with my Sporter 8 mm isn't what I call a " 1 Hole " group.

If you want to see a " True 1 Hole ", look at Jim's # 2 group.

[Jim Sheldon]

Dutch :

Q Ben - what do you mean your 8mm sporter shoots the 205 gr "pretty well"? Dohhh! One hole for 5 shots rates a little better than "pretty well", don't ya think?

A. All I ever said about my rifle was this :

Here is an 8 X 57 mm Sporter that I built recently.
It shoots the Lee 230 gr. bullet pretty well

I don't own a mold that cast a 205 gr. 8 mm cast bullet.

If you want to see a " True 1 Hole ", look at Jim's # 2 group.

Hey Ben,
If you don't have one of those Lee 329-205-1R molds and want some 205's, I'd be glad to cast you up a few :castmine:
They'll be .329 diameter, but you can size 'em down to .325 and GC 'em easy enough -- :lol:

[Ben]

Hey Ben,
If you don't have one of those Lee 329-205-1R molds and want some 205's, I'd be glad to cast you up a few :castmine:

That's a great offer Jim, but I rebarreled that rifle ( I've still got the 8 mm barrel packed in grease however ).

[Dutchman]

Dutchman,

Did you polish the bolt (Im assuming its an RC)?

It's not nice to assume:).

It's not a RC. It's a Yugoslavian re-crested de-nazified 1940 Mauser Oberndorf (Waffenampt 655).

I had the bolt done elsewhere. I don't do bolts. Bolts make me nervous.

Dutch

[Larry Gibson]

When I first saw the wire around the scope & fore end, I was thinking "Bubba's" scope mount but then I read the text - :lol:

What type of data are you collecting from the strain gauge?

Jim

From the strain gauge specifically I get the peak pressure, area under the curve and the rise of the curve. Also a nice graph that shows each shots pressure curve and when the bullet exited the muzzle. The attachment is all the info I can gather at one time per shot. It is for a hunting load developed using the Remington 185 gr bullet. As you can see there is a lot of info put in and a lot of data received. I get the first screens velocity, the proof screens difference, the down range (screens right in front of the 100 yard target) velocity, the time of flight in miliseconds, the measured BC for each bullet and then the pressure data. The sumary part puts the info together. In the ballistic part the velocity is converted to actual muzzle velocity (the distance from the muzzle to the start screen is measured and entered). Then I get usefull trajectory data to 500 yards. I also the use the actual target and trace each bullet hole onto the print out and write the group size. Gives me a pretty comprehensive picture of the internal and exterior ballistics of the cartridge in that rifle.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

You guys can't fool me, I know you use duct tape and bailing wire for "no D&T" mounts....works for me....you guys just won't admit it:-)

Larry Gibson

[beemer]

Larry,

I have been working up a load with the 185 Rem for my scoped Yugo 48. Accuracy has been good, it is no trouble to do 1.5''-2'' at 100 for 5 shots. I haven't ran any over the chrony yet but will before I'm done.

I have read somewhere that the 185 gr. 8mm bullet was made for the 8mm Rem Mag. If so it might be a little to hard to open up at 8x57 velocities. Have you had any experience on game with this bullet?

Dave

[Larry Gibson]

beemer

I have read somewhere that the 185 gr. 8mm bullet was made for the 8mm Rem Mag. If so it might be a little to hard to open up at 8x57 velocities. Have you had any experience on game with this bullet?

That is my understanding also. I've shot a couple injured elk with the load shown and they worked fine (one bullet recovered showed excellent expansion) but the range was less than 50 yards. A friend of mine over in NE Oregon uses them for elk hunting in his 8x57 and he's killed several elk out to 250 with them I think he uses 4350 or RL19 and gets another 50 fps or so. He says they are little too hard for deer past 200 yards. He prefers the Sierra 175 SP for deer and pushes it at 2750 fps using an older Lyman load before things were dumbed down. He says the load ain't broke so he ain't gonna fix it. I've not pressure tested his load but I have shot it and it shoots moa in my VZ 24/47. I'll pressure test it one of these days.

Larry Gibson

[Jim Sheldon]

Larry,
Where did you get the strain gauge, how have you mounted it to the rifle and what are the necessary connections to be able to collect the data with your computer? Also, how did you calibrate it?

I'm a retired master electrician, but during my 20 years in the Army, my main focus was teaching electronic equipment repair and on my last overseas assignment I was programming and supervising the operation of computerized test equipment.

This sounds like something that could be really useful and it's the first I've ever heard of an individual doing this.

Rather than keep hijacking this thread, you might consider starting a new thread on the subject for all to see or if not, PM me. I'm really hoping you're willing to share the info.

Jim

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

The strain gauges come from a company back east that makes all sorts of pressure measuring gauges and devices. I can get the name and address for you but it will take me a while to hobble out to the garage (I'm on crutches with a broken foot:-( ). They are spendy BTW. They come with the Oehler M43 Personal Ballistics Lab. It also is spendy but for what I do is worth every penny. I currently have 22 strain gauges mounted on various firearms of various cartridges.

The strain gages are permanently glued to the barrel using specific step by step process and several chemicals to prep the steel before application. The cable connections are soldered to tabs on the gauge and may be removed and reapplied at any time. I mostly put the gauge underneath the barrel between the barrel and stock so it is not visible when not being used. The gauge must be applied on the barrel over the middle to forward portion of the powder area of the case. This precludes the effective use in some actions with some cartridges. That is why my Contender barrel collection is growing.

The cable has a standard telephone plug in on the other end and is plugged into the M43 "box". A USB cable connects the M43 to the computer. A software program for the M43 is loaded onto the computer and that is where all data input goes and data is retrieved from. With the M43, the skyscreens and the laptop being battery capable it is readily portable and can be set up easily. However, at the range I use there is power available so I use that. I always set up on the same bench and have everything set the same each time I use it. The M43, laptop and accoutrements minus the skyscreens all fit into a large foam lined Pelican box for movement which protects everything.

The gauges are calibrated at the factory and you get a gauge specific measurement that is put into the computer. When the M43 initializes with the software it tests the gauge based on voltage and the number entered. If all doesn't match you get an "error" and can proceed no farther. That is the calibration of the gauge. If you mean the calibration of the psi then I contacted both Federal and Winchester about getting "reference ammunition. Calibration is a misnomer in this regard even though it is commonly used. Reference ammunition is a specific lot of ammunition known to be particularly consistent. It is then tested by SAAMI and their psi measurements then become "standard". When it is used in another pressure barrel it is expected that the psi's will be different. The difference is a +/- offset figure. I.E. if the SAAMI psi is 2,300 psi higher than the new test then the new test barrels psi measurements are increased by the offset figure of 2,300 psi to correlate to SAAMI's pressures. The actual psi measuring device is not "adjusted" or "calibrated" in the common meaning of the term.

The working of the electronics inside the M43 is way beyond me but perhaps you could understand it. You might call Oehler Research and discuss it with Dr Oehler; he is a gentleman of the old school. If you want further info then PM and we can discuss it there further so as to not hijack the thread as you mention.

Photo's show the strain gauge attached to a barrel where it is visible. The set up at the range; note the laptop sits on top of the M43 box. The Pelican case is to the right of the bench.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Got kind of side tracked there and didn't finish about reference ammunition. The actual reference ammuntion is very, very, very, VERY expensive. I had 2 lots of .308W ammuntion from each company and they were kind enough to email me the actual psi recorded (piezo transducers) and the corrected psi to SAAMI specs of those lots and the conditions (atmospheric) of the test and the specs on the barrel. Those then became my "reference" ammuntion. I found that with my minimum chambered barrel of the same twist that my psi measurements were pretty close. They actually were slightly higher than those of one of the test rifles. The round count of that test barrel was considerably higher than that of my rifles barrel.

Satisfied that the Oehler M43 was giving correct readings (not really any doubt about that but it was a good check of my gauge mounting and set up) I then set aside a quanity of M118 7.62SB as my own "reference ammunition. Having tested it for pressure and velcodity on the same day as the Fed/Win ammo was tested it gives a good base line for comparison. Now every time I set up the M43 I shoot a 5 shot string of that M118SB through the same rifle to veryfy that all is well and consitent. Noting the change in atmospheric conditions (also entered into the program) I've found the M43 to be very consistent from one set up to the next. I've not encountered a single problem or irregularity. I maintain the data from all of the "calibration" tests I run.

Larry Gibson

[beemer]

Larry,

Thanks for the info. I have been thinking about boring a small hollow point in the bullet

Dave