Issues with a 35Rem.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Okay so I picked up a 336 in this nice caliber but have yet to shoot it. I am having some problems loading for this rifle. I have a 2-die set made by Lee, as you would expect the sizer die does not expand the brass adequately for cast boolits. So I also use a universal cast boolit expander die (also made by Lee). The universal expander only flares the very end of the case so that the boolit will start with out shaving, yet for some reason I am not getting enough neck tension. I can actually turn the boolit in the case with the crimp groove being the only thing holding onto the boolit. If I don’t use the universal expander die I can’t get the boolits started without shaving lead. If I do use the universal expander the boolits will literally just drop into the case. I am not quite sure what to do. I have thought about taking the expander plug out of the sizer die and turning it down just a tiny bit with sandpaper. My thought is that then the sizer die won’t expand the brass as much, and then I will just use the universal expander to bell the cases. Any other ideas?

[PacMan]

I'M confused between the sizer and the expander.
dwight

[docone31]

Just how large are you making that casting?
If it is gas checked, it should fit in an ordinary die set. If not, send it to Lee, with a casting that works in the rifle. They will modify the die to fit the casting.

[Heavy lead]

How about using a .357 sizer die and setting it so you just size the neck only, should give you a tighter fit. Just a thought.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Just how large are you making that casting?
If it is gas checked, it should fit in an ordinary die set. If not, send it to Lee, with a casting that works in the rifle. They will modify the die to fit the casting.

Will that cost me anything?

[madsenshooter]

Win, or Rem brass? The Win has a thinner neck and turning down the expander ball may not help. Can you fell the expander pulling through the neck?

[Heavy lead]

Another random thought, deprime the brass seperate and pull the expander out and resize, then flare and seat the boolit and check things out.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Win, or Rem brass? The Win has a thinner neck and turning down the expander ball may not help. Can you fell the expander pulling through the neck?

Rem and PMC brass. Not sure what you mean by fell the expander.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Another random thought, deprime the brass seperate and pull the expander out and resize, then flare and seat the boolit and check things out.

Tried that one, but the problem was that the universal expander only expands the very mouth, not deeper in the case. As a result the boolits where getting undersized.

[docone31]

If memory serves me, it was not 10$ complete.
That was a few years ago. My .303 Brit just was too small for paper patching. I had to have both dies enlarged. I have a dedicated set for my .303 now.
They are pretty good about it. Talk to Pat at lee. Actually, e-mail them. They get back real quickly.
They have done well by me.

[KYCaster]

OK, two questions you need to answer.

1) Does the sizing die size the case neck to the correct size for your boolit?

2) Does the Lee Expander Die affect the case neck diameter or just the case mouth.

Take a sized case and bell the mouth with needle nose pliers or tapered punch then check your boolit fit. That should give you a clue to what's happening.

If boolit fit is still loose then the die dimensions are wrong or your boolit is way undersize.

Jerry

[Larry Gibson]

2ndAmendmentNut

Tried that one, but the problem was that the universal expander only expands the very mouth, not deeper in the case. As a result the boolits where getting undersized.

I'm assuming by that you mean the bullets were getting sized down too much by neck tension? If that is the case then when the expand/decap rod is removed the case necks are getting sized enough. That tells us the expand part of the expand/decap rod is too big as you suspected. Mic its diameter, what is it? If you can turn it down evenly then go for it. Turn a little and test by sizing cases. the inside measurement of the case neck should be .002 - .003" smaller than the diameter of your cast bullets. Then using the lee flair tool will work fine.

BTW the RCBS 35-200-FN is an excellent bullet for this cartridge. At 2000+ fps they are excellent for hunting and general rifle shooting. Also, for plinking, I' don't drive PB'd pistol bullets faster than 1000 fps for best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

Rem and PMC brass. Not sure what you mean by fell the expander.

After you have run the case all the way into the die, and start back out, you should be able to FEEL the neck of the case being expanded again as you withdraw the case. Sorry my bad spelling above. If you're not feeling it, then it could be that the neck is not be being sized down enough by the die. If you can feel it, could be turning the expander down a bit as you were thinking will help. Don't go too far!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

2ndAmendmentNut

Tried that one, but the problem was that the universal expander only expands the very mouth, not deeper in the case. As a result the boolits where getting undersized.

I'm assuming by that you mean the bullets were getting sized down too much by neck tension? If that is the case then when the expand/decap rod is removed the case necks are getting sized enough. That tells us the expand part of the expand/decap rod is too big as you suspected. Mic its diameter, what is it? If you can turn it down evenly then go for it. Turn a little and test by sizing cases. the inside measurement of the case neck should be .002 - .003" smaller than the diameter of your cast bullets. Then using the lee flair tool will work fine.

BTW the RCBS 35-200-FN is an excellent bullet for this cartridge. At 2000+ fps they are excellent for hunting and general rifle shooting. Also, for plinking, I' don't drive PB'd pistol bullets faster than 1000 fps for best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

You assumed correctly




After you have run the case all the way into the die, and start back out, you should be able to FEEL the neck of the case being expanded again as you withdraw the case. Sorry my bad spelling above. If you're not feeling it, then it could be that the neck is not be being sized down enough by the die. If you can feel it, could be turning the expander down a bit as you were thinking will help. Don't go too far!

Oh I see now, yes I can really “feel” it.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Ok the expander plug from the sizer die is right at .357 dia. So I am not sure if I want to turn it down.

[docone31]

You will need to upsize it.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

So I guess I'll send it off to Lee. Thanks guys.

[docone31]

Send them a casting the size you are going to load, they will modify both the expander die, and the sizing die. It will end up your go to rifle. My .303 is like that for me.

[madsenshooter]

Ok the expander plug from the sizer die is right at .357 dia. So I am not sure if I want to turn it down.

Hmm, something doesn't fit here. Just what size are the boolits you're trying to put in the case? After pulling over a .357 expander there should be no problem with too little neck tension on a boolit for the 35 Rem, unless the universal expander is opening more than just the mouth of the case. The problem has to lie there somewhere if you're tight enough to shave beforehand, then too loose after using the expander die. You haven't mentioned having slugged the bore of your rifle either. Groove diameter could be anywhere from .357" to over .362. The important question is in bold italics, I've been following this thread primarily because I just bought a pre-microgroove 336 in 35 Rem myself, haven't loaded for it yet though. BaBore should be cutting my mould soon.

[rockrat]

I would think a .357 expander when pulled over a properly sized neck, lubed well, would spring back to .355" or so. If you are flaring the mouth of the case to where you can just start to seat about .050-.060" of the boolit in the case, you should have sufficient case neck tension. What size are your boolits? I would think you will need at least .003-.004" difference to have proper neck tension.

[DirtyDan]

Did I miss it? You didn't say anything about a Lee Factory Crimp Die in the mix. I flare my 30-30s with Universal expander then seat the boolit, then crimp. No problems.

[9.3X62AL]

With spring-back of the case mouth brass taken into account, a difference of .002" between the expander ball or spud and the boolit diameter should provide sufficient neck tension and not reduce boolit diameters during seating. I routinely use a .355" spud in 9mm case mouths, and my boolits sized at .357" don't 'telescope' on feedramp contact--even with 3-4 cycles each. No significant taper crimp, either. 2Anut, we're missing the boolit diameter as part of the equation.

Another possible explanation of your "bullet spinning" phemonenon may be over-zealous roll-crimping. I've seen that loosen bullets on my 30 Luger and 30 Mauser cartridges--the end-on force that turns the case mouth edge inward literally causes the lower case mouth wall to bow out away from the boolit's sidewall. This can occur with both jacketed and cast boolits. I have little experience with the Lee Factory Crimp dies, dunno if they can produce that effect.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

The boolits I am loading are sized through a 358 sizer die. I confess that I have not slugged the bore yet, but seeing as I am not having any leading issues 358 seems to be big enough.