Base pins in Ruger single actions.

[Changeling]

Somewhere I read that there is no reason to go to an after market "Base Pin". However for the life of me I can't seem to remember anything other than that!
Just what will a after market base pin do that can't be attained by the Ruger base pin. Would really appreciate a full description of the problem and a fix, if one exists. :veryconfu

[462]

Ruger, from what I understand designed and manufactures a bit of cylinder/base pin play as an aid to proper cylinder/bullet/forcing cone alignment.

After market companies, like Belt Mountain, manufacture fat base pins for those who want a tighter cylinder/base pin fit.

I'm in Ruger's camp, though I do like the looks of Belt Mountain's Elmer Keith designed pin.

Also, Belt Mountain has base pins that incorporate a set screw as a means of preventing the pin from coming unlatched under heavy magnum-load recoil. Wollf Springs makes a heavier weight latch spring, which costs much less.

[Changeling]

Ruger, from what I understand designed and manufactures a bit of cylinder/base pin play as an aid to proper cylinder/bullet/forcing cone alignment.

After market companies, like Belt Mountain, manufacture fat base pins for those who want a tighter cylinder/base pin fit.

I'm in Ruger's camp, though I do like the looks of Belt Mountain's Elmer Keith designed pin.

Also, Belt Mountain has base pins that incorporate a set screw as a means of preventing the pin from coming unlatched under heavy magnum-load recoil. Wollf Springs makes a heavier weight latch spring, which costs much less.

So is that heavier weight latch spring from Wolff the answer to NOT losing the base pin without causing other problems ?

PS. Glad to see you are a fan of a very great actor, I really love his movies.

[pietro]

The Belt Mountain pin is helpful for correcting an overly sloppy cylinder pin fit, and when accurizing a Ruger SA revolver, as when throating, etc.

However, IF a Ruger SA owner's not ready to get that deeply into their gun, and/or the cylinder pin fit's "OK", it's simpler to just rework the head of the issue pin to prevent it from coming out forward under heavy bullet recoil.

I do it via D/T'ing a hole through the head of the cyl pin for a 3/4" long setscrew.

B 4 installing the setscrew, I fully seat the pin, and locate a punch on the barrel bottom, through the hole, for the tip of the setscrew to dwell in after it's installed.

The marked spot is enlarged slightly, for the tip of the setscrew, with an equally small drill bit.

An allen wrench will be needed thereafter for cylinder removal, though.

.

[tek4260]

I have also heard that they can cause alignment problems due to the fact that they lift the cylinder, but it has to be ever so slight. I have not used any yet, but probably will just because I think they are classy and the set screw is nice insurance.

[462]

Installed a set of Wolff hammer and trigger springs in my .357 Blackhawk, and included was a heavy duty base pin latch spring. Installed it as a test, but then removed it because it made the pin a bit difficult to move in either direction. I've never had the base pin become unlatched, but can see that the sprig would prevent it from happening in heavy duty .44 and .45 loads.

By the way, the spring kit reduced trigger pull to 3-pounds, from an original 6 1/2-pounds, and lightened the hammer pull just ever so much.

Duke's characters personified what made America great, and Westerns are my favorite genre. I particularly like Hondo because of the humorous interplay between Hondo and Mrs. Lowe, though it's not as much as in The Quiet Man or McClintock, between him and Maureen O'Hara.

[bbs70]

The base pin on my NV came loose several times, I had it replaced with an aftermarket pin and no more problems.
Bill Oglesby replaced the base pin on my blackhawk, among other work he did to the gun.
I have 0 problems with it.

[Changeling]

Installed a set of Wolff hammer and trigger springs in my .357 Blackhawk, and included was a heavy duty base pin latch spring. Installed it as a test, but then removed it because it made the pin a bit difficult to move in either direction. I've never had the base pin become unlatched, but can see that the sprig would prevent it from happening in heavy duty .44 and .45 loads.

By the way, the spring kit reduced trigger pull to 3-pounds, from an original 6 1/2-pounds, and lightened the hammer pull just ever so much.

Duke's characters personified what made America great, and Westerns are my favorite genre. I particularly like Hondo because of the humorous interplay between Hondo and Mrs. Lowe, though it's not as much as in The Quiet Man or McClintock, between him and Maureen O'Hara.

Now I am not really sure I want to do it. If it changes the "slop" in the chamber I will have to look into it more closely to see if it's something I really want to do. There was just a discussion on cylinder slop (bad word I think) and whether it is actually a bad thing, some of the real experts think maybe not.

I'm a big fan of Westerns myself, the Duke always seemed in total control of situations even when everything was stacked against him, and he just had this way of talking to women that seemed so right.:wink:

[44man]

Now I am not really sure I want to do it. If it changes the "slop" in the chamber I will have to look into it more closely to see if it's something I really want to do. There was just a discussion on cylinder slop (bad word I think) and whether it is actually a bad thing, some of the real experts think maybe not.

I'm a big fan of Westerns myself, the Duke always seemed in total control of situations even when everything was stacked against him, and he just had this way of talking to women that seemed so right.:wink:
I do not want to call it SLOP because it is so little movement you just have a hard time telling it. Movement at the cylinder lock recess should be .005" to .006" so movement at the throats will be less and within boolit centering range. Pin movement just can't be felt by hand if you use a good lube like STP on it.
Don't fit anything so tight it can't move. If a throat is .001" out of line with the bore, let everything move .0005" so the boolit centers itself.

[Changeling]

I do not want to call it SLOP because it is so little movement you just have a hard time telling it. Movement at the cylinder lock recess should be .005" to .006" so movement at the throats will be less and within boolit centering range. Pin movement just can't be felt by hand if you use a good lube like STP on it.
Don't fit anything so tight it can't move. If a throat is .001" out of line with the bore, let everything move .0005" so the boolit centers itself.


I don't know how I would "measure" how out of align a throat with the bore is, or how to measure movement at the cylinder lock. What could I really do about it anyway?

From what you and Bass were discussing It seems some movement here makes more sense rather than trying to capture the "Bullet" in an unmoving cylinder barrel relationship witch is impossible (over time and shooting).
Something has to move, so, logic says the lead bullet is the one that gives by bending or whatever "if" there is some misalignment between the cylinder and bore (Seems ridiculous to think there isn't).

If this misalignment is allowed to fluctuate/move somewhat it also makes sense to think it can align itself somewhat rather than bending/upsetting the bullet the least possible.

The only measurements I understand at this point is the throats vs the bore.

My barrel groove is .451 and will probably increase by .0005 to .4515 after I polish out a couple tight spots. The cylinder is being reamed out to .4525 as we speak I hope, I haven't received it back from Cylinder Smith yet. The bullets will be sized at .452.

This barrel is really nice, nothing like the barrel in the other Revolver witch is gone (sold).

The only thing you have ever told/taught me that I just don't agree with is STP, if it would just taste good it might be OK on pancakes, but thats it , LOL.;)

[Thumbcocker]

I have #5 base pins on my hunting guns. They seem to make the action work smoother. After each cleaning I wipe a small dollop of GI rifle grease agross the front of the cylinders where thr cylinder rubs against the frame and another touch on the cylinder ratchet teeth. A small amount of the dollop on the front is pushed into the cylinder base pin hole. Dunno how much they help but I rate the #5 base pin head very high on the "cool" factor.

[hpdrifter]

If you'll remove your base pin, chuck it in a drill and file the "groove" a little( with a round file), so the base pin latch will actually fit it, you'll not have a base pin jump again.

The base pin groove is not the same diameter(or cut deep enough) as the latch.

When it fits the "groove" the latch will slide over ALOT farther than it does from the factory.

[tek4260]

If you'll remove your base pin, chuck it in a drill and file the "groove" a little( with a round file), so the base pin latch will actually fit it, you'll not have a base pin jump again.

The base pin groove is not the same diameter(or cut deep enough) as the latch.

When it fits the "groove" the latch will slide over ALOT farther than it does from the factory.

+1. I did this to a few of mine. On one of dad's I had to legnthen the slot so to speak. When it is done properly, the base pin latch will sit at the same depth weather the pin is in or not.

[44man]

I like STP. It is CREEPY and some actually gets in the action but it seems to stay on critical parts and after 60,000 rounds my SBH shows zero wear. I tried all kinds of grease and oils but nothing seems to hang on like STP or RCBS case lube.
I can even shoot my BP old army all day without the cylinder sticking.
One can of STP lasts a lifetime and that makes it very cheap.
Since the same sticky stuff is used in chain saw blade oil, what can I say?

[Changeling]

I like STP. It is CREEPY and some actually gets in the action but it seems to stay on critical parts and after 60,000 rounds my SBH shows zero wear. I tried all kinds of grease and oils but nothing seems to hang on like STP or RCBS case lube.
I can even shoot my BP old army all day without the cylinder sticking.
One can of STP lasts a lifetime and that makes it very cheap.
Since the same sticky stuff is used in chain saw blade oil, what can I say?


Everything you say is true I think, some of my friends use it on "Every" thing and these guys aren't new to any shooting game. They go for what works.

However I just happen to like an item called MiliTec-1 witch I burnish into parts and go through a heat process (PITA). Then, from then on I use Break Free CLP (use very little). the combination of the 2 is rather great. It's very consistent in heat variations, you never notice a difference, I like that!

Then again, STP could be doing all those things at once, but who knows?

[Bass Ackward]

I like a dry lube. Dry lubes have no hydraulic effect. If you have a gun that requires some height (pin slop) then a liquid lube is going to try to prevent that in the time it takes for bullet exit. From what I have observed with group sizes, the thicker the lube, the longer the effect until a gun settles in. Dry lube is instant. If the pin wears, it wears. It can be replaced.

After reading this, I am not sure that my position has been understood. I am for a totally tight handgun when they are aligned, they work and work with everything basically allowing more flexibility for bullet designs and hardness levels than one that isn't.

But if you have a gun that will NEED to align then it comes down to two choices. Shoot / lengthen / enlarge / elongate the forcing cone until you have enough clearance for the worst case scenario. OR .... find some compromise between gun wear and bullet jump. It's that simple.

Irregardless of your careful thought process you use or the actions taken, (the best laid plans) your gun "can" change. It will continue to change over the useful life. That can be good change, or not so good. I have a 4" Smith that went from 2" out to 4ish and now is coming back to 2" level. (@1600 rounds)

What (if anything) you need to do is better determined AFTER the gun shows you. NOT what a target shows you NEW!!! That is a big point. If you see wear on say the top left portion of the cone: is this cylinder misalignment? Base pin misalignment? OR did the cone, being the thinnest portion of the barrel, collapse at that point from thread crush? You will end up guessing wrong and generally you will take the wrong action.

That's why I tell guys to just shoot them. Load a known load that works for virtually everyone and shoot the gun, you can observe the change. If you try to work up loads and continue to chase it, you loose the apples to apples comparison. By 2000 rounds (could be a lot less) you will have them settle in and stabilize. Or then it is decision time. A handgun will continue to improve to about 10k - 12k. But this is gradual by comparison. If the gun becomes .... overly broken in, then a larger base pin is not a negative. There are burs in the manufacturing process that will come off. Just look inside a Ruger cylinder base pin hole. Wear will occur until it doesn't.

From the way I shoot allot (instinctive shooting) I won't beat a tight gun such as a FA. When you are running a handgun quick, you need some slop to allow the cylinder stop spring time to raise the cylinder stop so that it will enter the notch or that cylinder is going to rotate right on by which can be dangerous and an even better reason for a generous cone.

But if you are using a revolver like a rifle, then great alignment with a tight gun will make you look like a genius and expert. A gun as described can be shot well with a lighter grip. If you have misalignment it will get more difficult to hold as you increase velocity or increase bullet weight and force you to use a death grip to control movement. (if you can) I own enough of those.

[sniper]

Rather than buy a new base pin, wouldn't it be possible to take the pin to a plating shop, and have them put a layer of hard chrome on it? That would seem to take care of slop in the fit, and still allow good rotation, and cost less than the new pin.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have them in all my single actions. Anything 44 mag or bigger using stout loads will eventually walk a pin out in a ruger. If your gun is not doing it now it will in the future. The locking pin cures that. Does it help with accuracy. I dont know. I know ive shot most of them before and after and have never seen one shoot worse with one. Some of my small guns have them and i doubt the stock pin would jump but they look cool and in the case of a kieth style pin give them some class and the sheriffs pin helps with ejectiion on some guns. If they are causing clyinder bind in your gun its because you installed them wrong. the locking screw isnt suppose to be screwed in tight to the barrel. You are suppose to drill a dimple in the barrel and grind the screw so that when the threads bottom out the tip of the pin is just sitting inside the recess you drilled. By the way Kelly Shlepp the owner of belt mountian is about as nice of a guy as has been ever born.

[Art in Colorado]

Have been dealing with him for years. He is the best.

[hpdrifter]

+1. I did this to a few of mine. On one of dad's I had to legnthen the slot so to speak. When it is done properly, the base pin latch will sit at the same depth weather the pin is in or not.

Yes, you are correct(bold is my emphasis)

I haven't had one "slip" the pin since.

[ohnomrbillk]

I have #5 base pins on my hunting guns. They seem to make the action work smoother. After each cleaning I wipe a small dollop of GI rifle grease agross the front of the cylinders where thr cylinder rubs against the frame and another touch on the cylinder ratchet teeth. A small amount of the dollop on the front is pushed into the cylinder base pin hole. Dunno how much they help but I rate the #5 base pin head very high on the "cool" factor.

That is the same setup and procedure I am doing. It has treated me well.

[44man]

After hundreds and hundreds of thousands of rounds out of Ruger's, I have never had a pin move. This will only depend on how the gun was fit at the factory. If fit right it will never change. I shoot thousands of 330 gr boolits from my SBH without a problem.
I keep reading Bass about wear and changes and never believed a word because I never, ever seen any indication of it until recently. The gun in question needs a new barrel and cylinder to come fully back and it is a super tight revolver. Off center wear at the cone, rifling and throats is unreal with around 300 shots.
Working with revolvers for 56-57 years, this is the FIRST time I have seen this kind of wear. The gun is too stinking tight! Bullets leave off center and wear the gun off center. Not only that but each throat shows wear in a different spot, some at the pin direction and some at the lock direction. Line bored!
It is almost impossible to have each chamber perfectly in line no matter what process is used and there might be one in a thousand guns that turn out right.
Some question my use of STP for lube but it does not restrict alignment but does act as a cushion, mostly back and forth and prevents end play from showing it's ugly head. It also softens fouling so a pin does not bind. After over 60,000 heavy rounds from my SBH it is not possible to measure a change from what I measured when new. The bore is still .430" and the rifling is right at the end of the forcing cone, crisp, even and sharp. End play has not changed. It groups as good as it did when new.
Inspecting my BFR's shows pristine rifling, forcing cones and throats. They will be still shooting good after a lot of generations and I am long gone.
If you want to wear out your nice revolvers, make them tight.
Would anyone here remove the gap between piston rings in your engine? There is a reason for tolerances.

Bass can pound on my casket trying to convince me a tight gun is better! :kidding:

[Changeling]

Well I have never had any reason to doubt your advise and do not intend to start now. Every thing you ever told me about I would give a lot of thought to and not once did the things you say not make good sense.

My only reason for not caring for STP was because a few years ago I started using it in a Ruger 10/22 (sparingly) but that winter I was hunting squirrels near my place called "Rocky Ridge" it is a long ridge that runs roughly from North to South. That day it was very cold about 10 degrees with a 10 to 20 mph wind, a squirrel came out and was headed for the corn field, when I shot there was a slow click, I reworked the bolt and tried again with the same results, went home! The STP was just plain to thick evidently for the 10/22 action.

Thats when I investigated everything and came up with my current lube method. I have never had this happen again in the 10/22.

More than likely it was the weaker action/springs of the 10/22 that caused it. I can see where the stronger springs of a single action revolver would probably not had this effect, but in my mind it had failed me! That is something hard to recover from!

As for setting up the 45 BH , my original intention was to set it up as tight as could be done because that had been the conventional wisdom I had read about and seemed to be adhered to by all reaching for the best possible setup.
After reading your thoughts on the subject I changed my mind because once again the things you said jut plain made sense to me.

So I'll keep doing as you have prescribed and wonder why others seem to disregard your years of experience and background coupled with "Pictures of Proof".

I very well might be crazy, but I am sure as Hell not stupid. You have "Been There Seen It and Done It", and some people think I should be listening to them, I think I'll just stick with your teachings Jim!!

[mtgrs737]

I too had trouble with the stock Ruger base pin coming loose from the frame latch. I inquired and got some advice to have a look at the Base Mountain pin for my Ruger NV. It was pointed out that the Ruger pin was machined all the way around the pin as in a lathe cut for the latch and the Base Mountain pin was cut with a end mill to create a simi circular latch engagement point with the latch. The point here is that the Ruger pin and latch only contact each other in a very small contact area whereas the BM pin has a much larger contact area with its latch. Using the Ruger pin I was having the base pin unlatching and sliding forward enough to cause the base pins spring loaded end to not push the hammer transfer bar enough to the rear and jamming the action. With the new BM pin this has never happened. I do think that the BM pin might be a tad larger, but if that is a problem it would be easy to modifiy it with a drill and a file or abrasive paper. You could even customize the base pin by leaving it full diameter at the frame and rear cylinder contact area and putting a taper on it to the front of the cylinder so that the original base pin diameter is retained. Then you could have your cake and eat it too.

STP has Zinc in it which is what most motor oil uses as a anti-wear additive, the stickyness of the stuff should keep it where it will do the most good. I know we are talking revolvers here, but the fully synthetic motor oils are great at reducing wear, but they are hard to find in heavy weights that stay put well. Mobil One makes a synthetic grease that is wonderful stuff one tube is a lifetime supply! Just my 2 cents.

[tek4260]

Not trying to stir, but wouldn't a tighter built revolver last longer? Less movement (slop) means there is less room for the gun to beat itself to pieces when it is fired. And Ill throw in that it must be in time and have good cylinder/bore alignment to begin with. I understand the theory on slop built in to let everything move into alignment, but at magnum pressures, I believe the movement is more violent than we realize.

Perfect example of built loose would be the old DA Colt's that are in every shop. They are built loose, and show what happens when they are fired a bit. I am sure they didn't take many rounds at all to turn them into paperweights.