Lyman IDEAL 452423

[Chapped Lips]

at a gun show today i picked up this IDEAL mold- 452423- single cavity PB,marked Keith-type 235grain for $15.....anyone have any experience with this out of production mold?

[Le Loup Solitaire]

This one was around for quite a while, but is now out of production. I had one for a time and used it in the 45 ACP in an AMT Hardballer. It shot high due to the increased weight which was around 245 grains. I struggled with the sight settings for quite a while and finally got rid of the mold and the hardballer. Its a good design but I think that it would be a better choice for a revolver in 45 LC. LLS

[StrawHat]

This is a good write up about the 452423

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

There was also a group buy for this boolit a while ago so there should be some recipes available.

[softpoint]

I have a double cavity in this mold, Mine weighs around 250 grs.,out of my alloy. It is a shorter design with a larger meplat than the other 250 swc offered by Lyman. It's a good bullet, but as said, can shoot to different point of aim than the 230 gr. slugs. This is not an issue with me since all my 1911's have adjustable sights. It can be finicky to get to feed reliably in some . I have shot it in my 625 revolvers, and Ruger .45 Blackhawks, too where it is a good performer, but have generally gone to 200gr. bullets in the 625's. :cbpour:

[GLL]

454423 CAT GB 45 2.1 design
http://www.fototime.com/5560C9981A3E039/standard.jpg

Very close to the original 2-cavity I have !

Jerry]

[Chapped Lips]

thanx all for replies.....the link was great....cant wait to receive my KAL handles and drop some....

[992B]

This was the first 45 caliber mold I ever purchased, and my most used one. When I ouught a Ruger 45 convertible model about 30 years ago the big bullet for this caliber could not be found. After experimenting, 9 grains of Unique with a standard large pistol primer in 45 Colt is dandy. Mine weigh in at about 235 grains.
Gary

[9.3X62AL]

Wasn't this design intended originally for the 45 Auto Rim revolvers?

[Ben]

Yes, AL.....I do believe you're right ....Auto Rim.

[MtGun44]

Yes, this was Elmer's design for the 1917 .45 ACP revolvers, either with the normal
rimless brass or with the rimmed brass.
Works very well in mine, once I got one large enough for my .454 throats and then
loaded it hot enough to hit near the sights. Light loads hit well left, but as the loads
get hotter they move right towards the POA.

Bill

[beagle]

Yeah, I've approached some of Elmer's loads with that bullet for the M1917. They were warm and I didn't ever get to his level with Unique but they will make a great man stopper.

I have found from shooting them from ACP cases in a .45 Ruger convertible that they tend to wander a bit at 100 yards. Too much to be useful for plinking at that range but again, we're talking pistol here and they're good at 50 yards./beagle

[StrawHat]

For my 25-2 I load the 454423 GB over 7 grains of Unique and enjoy the results. EK went to 7.5 but I have not.

In the 45 long Colt, I have shot this boolit over a case full of black powder and had a lot of fun with good results. I enjoy shooting black powder and find clean up is about the same for the firearms but a bit more for the cartridges.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

Does anyone knw if Mr Graff wrote a similar article about 454424?

[Bret4207]

This is a good write up about the 452423

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

There was also a group buy for this boolit a while ago so there should be some recipes available.

I believe the article was written some time back by our own Chargar.

[Chapped Lips]

thanx all for chip'n in.....i enjoy read'n about the history of development in our sport of shooting.....
9.3x62 AL.....are you a tonkin gulf yacht club member as well?....at your pay grade i would bet you are....how are things at china lake?

[MtGun44]

I. too, went up as far as 7.0 gr Unique with this boolit in a 1937 S&W (Brazilian contract
version of the 1917), but never went all the way to Elmer's 7.5 gr load. The interesting
thing is that the 6 gr loads shot about (IIRC) 4-5" left and a bit low. By the time I got
up to 7.0 gr it was level with POA and about 1" left of center. The POI moved ever closer
to the POA as the loads increased.

Bill

[Dale53]

I lusted after one of these moulds for my 625's (.45 ACP's). However, I "settled" on the NOE clone of the Lyman 454424. It weighs 250 grs out of WW's+2% tin and can be safely driven to 900+fps in my 5" 625 with 7.0 grs of Unique. It makes a powerful (as powerful as the original .45 Colt black powder round with a much better shaped bullet) and quite accurate load for deer, hogs, and black bear at reasonable range. Here's some cartridges (.45 Auto Rim) with those bullets:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

Dale53

[Freischütz]

I have a single cavity Lyman mould for 452423. Results in a Colt M1917 and a S&W 22-4 have been excellent. I was so pleased that I filed the 22-4's front site so points of aim and impact coincide.

I wish I had been a member for the group buy. The single cavity mould is too slow. I keep watching for another group buy, but it may be awhile.

[Doby45]

Dale what die do you use to do your crimping? (as in brand and style)

[Ben]

Dale :

Those look like real hog stoppers ! !

Ben

[Dale53]

Doby45;

I have a Lee Factory Crimp die for the .45 ACP. It comes with a taper crimp insert. I called Lee and they have an auxillary insert+spacer for a roll crimp. It requres replacing (temporarily) the taper crimp insert with the roll crimp insert and spacer. Both crimps work as designed.

Ben;
They ARE!! The NOE mould is a five cavity aluminum mould of the correct design AND size. It is excellent in every way.

Dale53

[Doby45]

I need to get that insert. That is a purdy roll crimp, my RCBS does not roll crimp very well.

[C1PNR]

My Brother and I have been shooting these at full power out of our 1911's, including the Argentine model, for many years. From my old 2 C they weigh in at 238 grains with my WW alloy.

Accuracy has always been consistent with what that particular handgun would produce. About my only complaint is that the Para doesn't digest them as well as the others. I'm still using RN in it, at least until I get it a little more broken in.

It's also a favorite in my RBH as a plinker that saves a little lead vs the 454424 that weighs in at 264 gr.

I've always viewed the 452423 as one of most versatile .45 handgun styles around.

[Dale53]

Doby45;
You will need to call Lee and ask for a technician who is familiar with .45 ACP+.45 Auto Rim dies. They were extremely helpful to me and sent me the insert+spacer promptly. I consider it a NECESSARY part of my .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim die set.

Dale53

[mroliver77]

This was one of my first molds. A Lyman single cav. It drops WW at .456+. I bought the Lee GB 6 cav some years ago and it is a nice mold. This boolit shoots very well out of a 1937 Brazilion gun, my .45 Colts love it and a few diferent 1911's have shot it and fed it well. One of my favorite boolits. The Lyman single cavity is Beagled and drops at .460. Sized through my .459 die they are loaded in 45-70 for an awesome plinker! Miha was supposed to do a HP in this design.
J

[Ben]

Dale53

A few have had critical remarks to make about NOE molds, not me .......! !

AL makes some fine molds. They are well worth the money !

Ben

[Char-Gar]

I am glad to folks continue to rediscover this great bullet. It was indeed designed by Elmer Keith for the Colt and Smith and Wesson 1917s DA sixguns in 45 ACP. His load was 7.5/Unique over this bullet. I shoot this load on a regular basis through post war sixguns but consider it to hot for the old pre-war sixguns.

Skeeter Skelton wrote an article many years ago entitled "Poor Man's Magnum" where he loaded the heavier 260 grain Keith over this charge and shot it through a Colt 1917. After the article was published he succeeded in cracking the cylinder of his pistol. He had the pistol re-barreled and re-cylindered to 44 Special. I owned this pistol for a short time...like two hours!)

452423 does well in the 45 Colt out to 100 yards or so. I like 9/Unique in the 45 Colt case. It still is just the huckleberry for the 1911 pistol in 45 ACP. 4/7/BE does the trick for me. The notion of getting hit with this bullet makes me queasy. I have seen what it does to deer and lesser critters.

There is nothing magic about the heavier Keith bullet for the 45 Colt. Just load 8.5/Unique and shoot away. It can be pushed harder, but why?

[mroliver77]

Seems like it was mebbe Charger got me to shooting this boolit out of my 1911. It is still mt go to boolit for loading to kill things. I have only tried it in 4 or 5 1911 but none had any feeding problems whatsoever. My books told me that it would not feed. A few old timers with EXPERIENCE said it would work fine so I tried it.
One reason I fell in love with the internet right away as it put many of us with like minds together to pool our knowledge when before it was all but impossible to do that. I shot this boolit in the 1937 Brazillion but knew a SWC Kieth would never work in an auto(My books said so) In some ways these are the good ole days!
Jay

[Dale53]

Lyman has disappointed me of late and one of the reasons is they have been dropping several very useful designs. This (454423 or 452423) is one. No one else makes a similar bullet design, to the best of my knowledge. I DID find an even better bullet in the NOE 454424 bullet as I have mentioned but I use mine in a couple of current S&W 625's.

Another of Lyman's decisions was to drop the great Keith 452424 in four cavity moulds (they still list it in a two cavity mould). I surely don't understand THAT one. I understand, that with the great interest in Cowboy Action shooting, that the Lyman 452664 is better adapted to companion lever guns but surely there is room for both?

Sounds like to me that there is a lot of, "Penny wise and pound foolish" going on in that outfit...

But, that is just me...

I do have a comment on using the 454423 bullet in a 1911. The bullet is designed to seat to a depth in the case where the crimp groove is used (original design was for revolver use). If you taper crimp just below the leading edge of the first band, you will be seating it considerably deeper than originally intended. That means that the pressures, in that rather small case, would be considerably higher compared to "normal" seating depth. That calls for a reduction of powder charge. I have no pressure test results that conclusively show this, but-t-t... I would suggest that any who intend to use this in a 1911 carefully consider this when deciding on a powder charge. I would compare it to the seating depth of a Lyman 452374 (nominal 230 gr Round Nose) and act accordingly. The slight extra weight compared to the 230 gr RN is not nearly so big a concern to me as the reduction of powder space might be.

Just be safe, folks.

Dale53

[Char-Gar]

Just a little adendum with Dale's caveat in mind. To be certain, Dale is correct in that the reduced powder capacity when 452423 is seated in the ACP case for use in the autopistol, is indeed a matter of concern. I have determined that 4.5 to .4.8 grains of Bullseye is a safe powder charge to use. I would never go above 4.8 and would start at 4.5 and work up. 4.5 grains is a pretty stout load and I killed several deer with it.

Some folks load the longer/heavier 454424 in the ACP case and that decreases case capacity even more. Frankly, I would not be comfortable in doing that.

I am pretty comfortable with what I said above about the BE loads. I have never worked with any other powder for this combination of bullet, case and pistol. So, if you wander off the Bullseye reservation, your blood be on your own head. Also one needs to be certain his 1911 pistol has not been gunsmith improved into a piece of rattling junk. You also need no less than an 18 lb recoil spring.

[billw]

The Lyman 451423 is not much good for anything. Send it to me, I'll pay $15. Just kidding, it's a good one for 1911 and 45 Long Colt. I don't have one but have a Lee mould similar if not the same in HP, haven't fired it yet, old Lyman, Lee, bunch of moulds here, don't know how many I have including H&G, Saeco and one 58 cal I can't ID.

[Stuckcase]

I prefer 8.5 gr of Imr 800x behind Lyman 452423. Great boolit

[USSR]

Stuckcase,

You're going around bringing up all these threads that are many years old. Try something current or start one of your own.

Don