Learning curve -------------

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK, I am in the middle of trying to develop, cast boolit, hunt worthy loads for my 45/70.

I have cast for years, but VERY seldom for rifle and therefore not with the concern for hunting level groups, such as I am attempting to do now.

I know I need to tighten up my casting practices in this effort, but am looking for some tips which might stop the fliers messing up my groups.

At this point, I have hunting level groups at 100yds, but fear they would be ify at the 200yds I hope to arrive at.

At this point, IMR 4198 seems to be getting the nod. 49, 50 & 51grains all giving a bit over 2100fps in my RUGER #1-s with a 350gr LBT boolit and LBT blue soft lube. The lubed boolit with gas check is falling in the 360 - to 365gr range

3031, at the load levels I hope to arrive at, is heavly compressed!!!! to the point where the 59 & 60 gr loading will not allow the boolit to seat to the normal depth.

With the 4198, I am getting very huntable 100yd groups, but that flyer - usually one per group - is not happy.

It is also keeping me from calling this load a 200yd group!

I figure a thermometer for my lead pot would help with consistancy. Thoughts????

I also wonder if all of my gas checks are hanging on for the whole ride. Thoughts????

My alloy is WW. Thoughts????????

Just how close to a given wt. is needed to get the hunting level groups?

My last tests were with lubed and gas checked boolits +/- 1/2gr of 364gr. Still had the flier. Thoughts??????

I could be hunting cow/anterless elk as soon as this coming Sunday morn'in, but probably not.

Son and I have taken early !!! morning walks the lst three days. First morn'in, lots of deer but no fresh ELK sign.. Second mor'in, just behind the house, zip for everything. Yesterday, back into the deer but with the addition of fresh, night [smilie=w: before, ELK tracks.

Interested in your thoughts.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[BABore]

For full snot loads, I prefer Hodgdon's H322. I've never had the best of luck with 4198. What are you using for primers? I typically use CCI 200's for general use. When I'm picky, I use Federal 210M match primers. I once had a good load for my 450 Marlin using H322. It's more or less the same as the 45-70, so it is comparible. Using the CCI 200 primer, the load was running 2,051 fps with an ES of 35 fps. Grouped around an inch at 100 yds for 3-shots. At 200 yards it was more like 4+ inch and just a hint of vertical stringing. Changed to the 210M's and the ES went down to 8 fps and accuracy was had at 200 yards and more.

Another thing to watch is how hard the boolit engraves when chambered. Ruger #1, 45-70's are notorious for having no throat at all. Sometimes a cast boolit likes a little breathing room. Not much, but 0.005 to 0.010" off can sometimes help.

You didn't mention what your groove size was nor what your sizing to. A very iportant factor is also what your chamber size is. How big is the inside diameter of a fired case. Excessive chamber size will allow the boolit to scoot to one side or the other when slammed hard. This will cause flyers. Size to a slip fit into a fired case to help control this. If the chamber is big, you may also want to only partially size the case so it centers itself in the chamber.

Finally, LBT Blue soft is an outstanding lube. It excells at high velocity. Tends to throw lube purging flyers when you don't have conditions to use it all up or when it's cold out. Try lubing one less groove if possible or switch to another lube.

One last thought. You mention WW alloy, but not if they are heat treated. I would be HT'ing them for your velocity. If you already are shooting hard boolits, are you waiting a couple weeks before using them? While they do show pretty complete hardening after 24 hours, I've never found them to be stable until at least two weeks or so. Young boolits will throw a flyer.

For a fine hunting alloy, many here have found that a mix of 50/50 WW-Pb is about perfect. Water drop them from a hot mold and give them 2-3 weeks. Mine run 22 bhn and will expand well. It also shoots more accurately than straight WW's in my guns.

[MtGun44]

I have had excellent results with 57 gr W748 under a 405 gr cast RCBS GC or Speer or
Rem JFP. Runs 1750 from my Marlin GG, 2" or better at 100, I for get the group, but still
really good at 200, about 8" drop from a 150 yd zero which is about 1.5 " high at 100
IIRC.

This is NOT a high pressure load due to the slow powder. I use a mag primer.

Bill

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK, -------- the primer is CCI BR2, because I have a bunch of them.

The word is they are basicly a CCI 200 with a bit better quality control.

WW alloy is air cooled. normally water quench, but it seems here on this forum that a bit softer boolit finds favor for hunting/shooting in the 45/70.

Powder, again on this forum, seems while some other powders find favor, 3031 and 4198 lead the pack.

Was reading this afternoon and wonder if adding a touch of lino type might help.

About a 1 to 4, linotype/WW would boost the tin about 1/2% and the antimony about 1% over just WW.

As per chamber size, there is very little evidence of case swelling.

The throat was opened up just a touch to allow for the setting of the 350gr LBT boolit.

I am sizing to .459.

One thing I have noticed over the years, no matter what the make of sizer or the boolit beng sized is the marks on the boolit nose indicating that it made the trip in and out of the sizer die a slight bit off center. ??????

As per the lube, I don't want to get into that race, and everyone's lube is the best made and ever used. I guess it it works for you use it, and a bunch of them must be very good.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Maven]

"I am sizing to .459". One thing I have noticed over the years, no matter what the make of sizer or the boolit beng sized is the marks on the boolit nose indicating that it made the trip in and out of the sizer die a slight bit off center. ??????"

Crusty, You may want to try using epoxy in the nose punch (one of LBT's?) for a better CB-to-sizing die fit. Then too, it may be an off center sizing die. If so, try to obtain another one (either Lyman, Lee,* or RCBS). Also, have you considered sizing to .460", which may merely crimp the GC and leave the CB untouched? Since, you should only make 1 change at a time, I'm hesitant to suggest switching to 5744, but it works very well (a bit faster than IMR 4198 though)?


*Lee nose first sizing dies are .457", but can easily be opened to .459" or even .460".

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Maven,

Thanks for the reply.

I have wondered about the sizers or the sizer/luber being bored "off center", but if so, it must mean every die I have ever had, and each of the five sizer/lubers I have owned over the years has been off center.

Hmmmmmm??????????? possible, but it does seem unlikely.

I have ordered a pot thermometer to tighten up that aspect of my casting process, and the .460 sizing die also seems like a good thought.

The barrel on this rifle is really nice. Clean an bright! I would guess, from all indications, the rifle was barely fired before I bought it. I'm just guessing here of course, but a safe guess is that I have already fired the rifle far more then the first owner ever did.

I ordered the thermometer and some 44 & 45 gas checks yesterday, from Buffalo Arms in Sandpoint, Ideeeeeho and should have thought about a different sizer.

Have used a .431 in my .44s for years.

But, need to order some more Star, 45/70 brass so maybe a sizing die can be included on the next order.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Maven]

"I have wondered about the sizers or the sizer/luber being bored "off center", but if so, it must mean every die I have ever had, and each of the five sizer/lubers I have owned over the years has been off center. Hmmmmmm??????????? possible, but it does seem unlikely."

Crusty, Sounds to me like your lube sizer is out of alignment. Buckshot once posted pics and a tutorial on how to realign it somewhere on this site. You may want to search the archives for it.

[Larry Gibson]

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I've been shooting high end cast 45-70 loads out of my Siamese Mauser for many years so here's my 2 cents.

OK, -------- the primer is CCI BR2, because I have a bunch of them.

Those should be okay with the powders used. Personally I use WLRs because in very cold weather ignnition can be a problem. WLRs are made to ignite ball powders and while considered a non-magnum primer they have more brissance than CCI200s.

The word is they are basicly a CCI 200 with a bit better quality control.

WW alloy is air cooled. normally water quench, but it seems here on this forum that a bit softer boolit finds favor for hunting/shooting in the 45/70.

My current alloy for hunting is 50/50 WW/lead AC'd. With GC' bullets I generally push them to 2100 - 2200 fps. I have to clean the barrel after every 5-7 shots to maintain the best accuracy.Doing that is ok with me for a hunting load because I like the expansion and terminal effect of the expanding bullets out to at least 200 yards. For a practice load I use WWs +2% tin and WQ. These can be shot all day without cleaning the barrel with a good load.

Powder, again on this forum, seems while some other powders find favor, 3031 and 4198 lead the pack.

I use H322 as BABore mentions and also give RL7 a try. RL 7 is my top choice for 350 - 400 gr bullets with top end loads.

Was reading this afternoon and wonder if adding a touch of lino type might help.

About a 1 to 4, linotype/WW would boost the tin about 1/2% and the antimony about 1% over just WW.

I go just the other way with softer bullets for hunting. For practice loads just get some tin and add 2% to your WWs and WQ them. This will give much better fill out to the bullets. I find I get a lot less rejects if I cast with a hotter alloy and cast just fast enough so I don't get frosted bullets.

As per chamber size, there is very little evidence of case swelling.

The throat was opened up just a touch to allow for the setting of the 350gr LBT boolit.

I am sizing to .459.

One thing I have noticed over the years, no matter what the make of sizer or the boolit beng sized is the marks on the boolit nose indicating that it made the trip in and out of the sizer die a slight bit off center. ??????

If you are using a Lyman lubrasizer try not tightening the set screw that holds the top punch in. A dab of lube on the top punch stem will hold it in. This lets it self center as much as it can. Also if your bullet has a flat meplat then use a top punch that has a flat that pushes on the meplat instead of the ogive of the bullet.

I'm assuming the use of Hornady crimp on GCs? If they are a tight fit on the cast bullet they should stay on during flight. Also if they are tight when putting them on the bullet and not seated to bottem out then pre-seat them before sizing. A crooked GC on the shank can easily cause the bullet to enter the sizer crooked. The Lyman GC seating tool works well for me. You can also adjust the "I" stop all the way up so the GC is just seated and slightly crimped at the top of the sizer.Then readjust the "I" stop down and lube the bullets.

As per the lube, I don't want to get into that race, and everyone's lube is the best made and ever used. I guess it it works for you use it, and a bunch of them must be very good.

I use Javelina (classic NRA 50/50 beeswax/alox formula) for my loads. It works very well at HV and in fairly cold weather down around 20 degrees or so. There are some others if you hunt in colder weather that work better. I think Bullshop sells one? Quite candidly I've been very dissappointed in LBT Blue Soft. I've been running extensive tests in several calibers on different bullets and have not had decent results unless the temperature is above 50 degrees. Others swear by it but my experience has not been all that good. You may not want to go there but the lube could be part, a major part, of the flyer problem. You won't know unless you try something else.

Those are my thoughts.

Larry Gibson

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Thanks Larry.

And, NO I don't want to go there about the LBT soft blue lube as I just bought 30 sticks.

However, I did see a group which looked reasonably good with my home brew lube.

I have enough of that mix to last me quite awhile for use in just the 45/70, should it happen to out shoot the LBT product.

However, the current batch of home brew will never be duplicted as I cleaned out the odds and ends of lube I had laying around and threw it all into one pot. Ooooops!

Would be easy enough to test, I have one sizer with the home brew in the tank, so change the dies and size up a sample to shoot against the best that LBT soft Blue has done.

If the groups are equal or better with the home brew, and no fliers I guess the LBT would be set aside for the handgun boolits.

The nose punch for the 350gr WFN LBT boolit was made to fit that boolit, bny LBT.

Maven, Hope you are incorrect about the sizer/luber being out of line, cause if it is, as indicated earlier everyone I've ever had has been blessed with the same problem.

Thanks for the info guys, I expect little by little I will make the correct turns and things will be just HAPPY!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Maven]

"Maven, Hope you are incorrect about the sizer/luber being out of line, cause if it is, as indicated earlier everyone I've ever had has been blessed with the same problem."

Crusty, I hope I'm wrong as well, but I have a Lyman #450 and 2 RCBS Lub-A-Matics and am not aware of any misalignment. The floating top punch, as per Larry's suggestion, may save the day.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Running with a loose sizing die and tip punch is sure worth a try.

I need to try the home brew lube, so I think I'll just switch the top punch and die over to the other sizer and give it a go.

I weighted out a bunch of raw boolits, recycled the highs and lows and took an average with the rest, so think I'll do a run of test boolits, and load up rounds with both of the lubes and with the floating parts.

I could get word of a wondering elk herd in some farmers field, and being as how that "farmer" season open in the morning I had better get with it. This "farmer's season runs about six weeks, so have a bit of time.

On top of that, being as how I am an Ol'Coot and the weather is really hot right now, it would be a struggle to get a critter into the cooler fast enough.

Hate!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hot weather, so it can cool down to sweat shirt weather any time as far as I am concerned! Not likely soon, but maybe I will get a day here an there with enough cool to hunt.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot