Finally...a Krag!!

[Kraschenbirn]

Been shopping, off and on, for an "affordable" Krag shooter since about the time I figured out that the .30-40 is a "natural" for CB. Snagged this one off a consignment auction a couple weekends back.

From the S/N, it was mfg'd in 1898 and I'm guessing "sporterized" well before WWII. According to the folks at Lyman, this particular Mod. 48K receiver sight (marked with patent date: 1911) was made between 1912 and 1920. Stock has been reworked by someone who knew what they were doing; very clean inletting around the rear sight and nice checkering on the bottom of the forearm and around the wrist - definitely NOT a "kitchen table bubba job".

Bore is very, very clean - slugs .308x.301 - with sharp rifling and (after a thorough cleaning/defouling with Sweet's 7.62) no visible pitting or dark patches. Haven't shot it yet - still waiting on brass and dies - but thinking either the old reliable 311291 or, maybe, the Lee 309-200-1R for starters.

Bill

[Dean D.]

Awesome snag! FWIW, for light target work I have had excellent luck with the 311466 over 19.5gr of IMR 4227 in my Krags. YMMV.

Enjoy!

[Kraschenbirn]

Awesome snag! FWIW, for light target work I have had excellent luck with the 311466 over 19.5gr of IMR 4227 in my Krags. YMMV.

Yep!! I'm planning to try the 311466 eventually but I used all I had on hand reloading .30-30s for my Savage bolt gun and it's been too darn' hot to do any casting.

Bill

[RayinNH]

Nice rifle Bill. Hard to find a boolit that won't shoot well in a Krag. A few that have done well for me, 311291 and 19.1 gr. SR 4759, Lee 185 2R and 17 gr. 2400, 311284 and 17 gr. 2400, even the Lee 155 grain boolit is a good one for plinking...Ray

[Dobetown]

really nice, I am green. It looks like an NRA sporter that someone finished. Makes my two look like a klunkers. Let me know if you get tired off it.

[GBertolet]

Had good luck using 18gr 4759 in my Krag carbine, with the 311291 and 311284 bullets. About 1575 fps with the 291 and about 1475 fps with the 284 in my 22 inch barrel. Two to three inch groups at 100 yds with my bad eyes. Real pleasant shooting, and the brass seems to last forever. Try this, get a Lee neck collet sizer die for the .303 British, as Lee doesn't make one for the 30-40. Take the mandrel out and take 1.5 thousandths off of it, which will make it right for 30 cal. You will never have to lube your cases, plus it only sizes down about 80% of the neck, which leaves a tiny unsized ring at the shoulder, which I think helps center the loaded round in the chamber. At these low pressures you can even use pistol primers, if that's all you can get, during this primer shortage.

[No_1]

Your brass has not arrived yet?

[Jack Stanley]

Those old steel peep sights are just the coolest thing ain't they ?!! If I saw a neat shooter like that come by i think I'd have bought it too and firured out who to sell my infantry rifle to later :grin:

Enjoy that one , it's a beaut !! :drinks:

Jack

[SharpsShooter]

I have the same sight ( S not K) on my 03 sporter. BTW my Krag loves the 311299 and 23 grains of IMR 4198./

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/1903Springfield3-1.jpg


SS

[madsenshooter]

Those 48Ks are the epitome of the machinist's art! I bought one off ebay once, and didn't even have a Krag at the time. Sold it later when I quit my job, now I have a bunch of Krags!

[mooman76]

Not trying to hyjack this thread but I had a chance to buy a Krag a few years ago and passed on it. I am wishing now that I hadn't. But the reason I passed was because first it had been bubba'd a bit but a guy I knew that knew allot more than me about guns(he's 20 years my senior and been reloading since I was born) said I would have a problem with it. I told him I generally loaded with light loads but he said it didn't matter. That was the desiding factor but I can't remember what he said the problem was. Does the Krag rifle have a inherant problem or weak point?

[GBertolet]

The Krag has only one main locking lug on the bolt, with a small reserve lug on the top of the bolt at the rear. This limits the max pressure to around 45K. You would probably be better off limiting it closer to 40K. The Krag has one of the slickest operating bolts of any rifle. Unfortunately from a military standpoint, it was obsolete almost as soon as it was adopted in 1892. Knowing it's limitations, it is a neat rifle.

[madsenshooter]

Other than only having one locking lug, no. I can tell you I've shot some loads out of mine that'd make the 2200fps service load that was supposedly cracking bolts look like a wimpy load pressure-wise, but I've not cracked any bolt lugs yet. Mic McPherson, who for awhile edited Cartridges of the World, thinks the problem was some overcooked bolts, not the hotter ammo. I do have one Krag receiver that was overcooked. It has some cracks in the receiver behind the locking lug recess. Even then I think it was more a matter of the locking lug bearing only on the outside portion of the recess, as the cracks radiate from there. Maybe the fellow meant it was finicky about the load it liked or something like that.

[wallacem]

Hey guys, if anyone might be interestd in my Krag look at the pictures and let me know, Wallacem in Ga

[PatMarlin]

nice.

[buck1]

I wanted one my whole life and I filaly picked one up with a good bbl last year ( I got it here). I love it!! Good find!

[Kraschenbirn]

Just an update...

Took the Krag to the range this morning and it looks like this one's a "keeper". Only had 40 rounds loaded...half Ken Waters' 22 gr IMR4198/Lyman 311291 and half 37.5 gr IMR4350/Lee 309-200-1R. Used 1/2 the 4198 loads getting the sights centered at 50M then shot the rest at 100M. 5-shot groups from both loads ran around 2 1/2" (+/-) with the best with the 200-grainers going into just over 2". (Was also the last group I shot and improvement may have been more shooter than gun/loads as I'd become pretty comfortable with trigger and sight picture by that time.)

Didn't chrono either load today but brass is already in tumbler and plan to get back to the range later in the week.

Bill

[bruce drake]

Pure Jealousy.

Since I found the affordable P14 I've been looking for for the last 10 years, I would not want to tempt fate twice in the same year to find another gem like that Krag of yours. I'll wait to next year to start the search for a Krag. I wouldn't wanted to be called up earlier than I expected because I found 2 good rifles in a year.

How much fun is it to shoot a lead load at 100 that matches or improves on store-bought ammo!

Bruce

[KCSO]

Well I have been a Krag fancier for a number of years and currently have a Sedgley and a home built Krag sporter. Both will shoot better than I do and both have harvested a number of deer. My deer load is a Mountain Moulds 22 rnfp bullet with 4895 powder for 1950 from a 24" barrel, pretty much duplicating the old Krag load. For plinking a Lee 165 spire point sized 311 and pushed by 12.5 of Red Dot groups at or under 2" at 100 yards.

Last year at qualifications I showed up with a Krag carbine with a peep sight and beat a whole raft of scoped AR's and shot in time too.

[Multigunner]

Other than only having one locking lug, no. I can tell you I've shot some loads out of mine that'd make the 2200fps service load that was supposedly cracking bolts look like a wimpy load pressure-wise, but I've not cracked any bolt lugs yet. Mic McPherson, who for awhile edited Cartridges of the World, thinks the problem was some overcooked bolts, not the hotter ammo. I do have one Krag receiver that was overcooked. It has some cracks in the receiver behind the locking lug recess. Even then I think it was more a matter of the locking lug bearing only on the outside portion of the recess, as the cracks radiate from there. Maybe the fellow meant it was finicky about the load it liked or something like that.

Bad heat treatment probably caused some bolts to fail while others did not, but I have my own theory.

On reading Greener's book the Gun and its development I found that it was very common for lots of smokeless powders to be far more energetic than the formulas would indicate.
Also the .32 Special had the advantage over the .30-30 of being suitable for reloading with Black Powder, a major selling point when these cartridges came out shortly after the .30-40.
The reason given was that there had been many accidents caused by the poor quality control of smokeless powders sold for reloading, and many early smokeless powders were very temperature sensitive.
The manufacturers of British sporting ammo had to resort to downloading ammo shipped to warmer climes like India and Africa. Ammo safe enough in the British isles could blow out the breech when temperatures climbed to 100 degrees or more in tropical heat.

Early smokeless could also break down under vibration during shipment or in vehicles. A phenomena which caused at least one accident some years back when ammo left for years in the glove box of an off road truck broke down and blew up a .44 mag revolver. The powder in remaing cartridges from that box had been ground to dust by vibrations of the truck engine and bouncing over rough ground.

Also whenever a charge is increased it almost always increases the maximum deviation for the loads. An example would be M118 Ball which has a maximum deviation of more than 5,000 CUP over its AMWP of 52,000 psi.

A nominal 43,000 CUP load might have a Max Deviation of 48,000 plus.

The older loads were not only of lower pressure but a bit less subject to increased pressure due to various factors of handling, heat, etc.
The powder previously used was highly erosive but very consistent and fairly stable.

[No_1]

What is your price face to face sale?

Robert


Hey guys, if anyone might be interestd in my Krag look at the pictures and let me know, Wallacem in Ga

[madsenshooter]

I shot my Krag in the Vintage Match at Camp Perry. I didn't do very good, but it was all me, not the rifle or load. I didn't shoot cast, might next time out. I had no problem stroking that smooth working bolt or reloading (I made a charger), and had plenty of time left before the targets went down after 80 seconds (10 shots). They are a joy to me. Even the junkier ones I have are hard to part with!

[Char-Gar]

Krashenbirn... I am a Krag fan and would like to prevail on you for a little information about the mounting of the Lyman 48. I am in the process of mounting a Lyman 48 on a Krag I am building. The 48 base is somewhat difficult to mount and can be mounted in several places. Yours in mounted forward of the magazine cut off. To do that requires some cutting/grinding/milling to the rear end of the side magazine plate. I wonder if there is any way, you could send me a pic of how the side plate has been modified so I could get an idea how to do it.

As an aside, I noticed a screw and nut on top of the bolt holding the extractor in place. Normaly the pin/screw is flush with the top of the bolt. The longer screw with nut was a replacement used to mount a Rice peep sight on the bolt at some point in time. You can remove the nut and flush the screw and it will do no harm.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

[Multigunner]

I shot my Krag in the Vintage Match at Camp Perry. I didn't do very good, but it was all me, not the rifle or load. I didn't shoot cast, might next time out. I had no problem stroking that smooth working bolt or reloading (I made a charger), and had plenty of time left before the targets went down after 80 seconds (10 shots). They are a joy to me. Even the junkier ones I have are hard to part with!

The wallhanger Krag carbine I once owned wasn't shootable but I found its action every bit as fast to handle as the SMLE.
When the Krag was adopted the Chargers were not yet part of the Enfield rifle design and the Krag was far faster to reload without a charger than any of its competitors. Only the Mausers had the advantage of charger or stripper clip reloading in those days.

The advantages of the 1893 Mauser over the Krag were a bit exagerated, but the Krag was not as suitable to improvements and higher velocity ammo.
I'd not feel a bit at a disadvantage carrying a Krag in almost any circumstances. A fine rifle and much under rated.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I just missed out on a Krag carbine at a local gunshop. It has been there for 6 weeks, I`m told. It sold for $395 and was in very good shape they said.Robert

[leadman]

I think it would be "neat" to have a Norwegian? Krag with the magazine door that swings forward and has a charger slot. The second lug on the bolt also bore on the receiver to increase the strength.
The USA officials that changed the original design should have left it alone in my view.
That said I do enjoy my Krag sporter.

[Multigunner]

I think it would be "neat" to have a Norwegian? Krag with the magazine door that swings forward and has a charger slot. The second lug on the bolt also bore on the receiver to increase the strength.
The USA officials that changed the original design should have left it alone in my view.
That said I do enjoy my Krag sporter.

Some target shooters, both civilian and military, would lapp the locking lug till the safety lug came to bear, no so much for greater strength as to improve accuracy by giving a more solid lock up.
A few thousandths of head gap were sacrificed, but many early Krags had very tight headspace, almost too tight for use in the sandy western desserts.
Also due to manufacturing tolerances some safety lugs bore to begin with.

In general though if theres no daylight at the safety lug its best to closely examine the locking lug for setback or cracks.

[Char-Gar]

If anybody is looking for a Krag, I know where one is to be had. It has a cut down military stock, but with the original 30" bbl. The finish has gone to patina, but the bore looks good. It does have a Lyman scope base on it, but it can be removed and the three hole plugged. I can come up some pics if anybody is interested.

[Kraschenbirn]

Krashenbirn... I am a Krag fan and would like to prevail on you for a little information about the mounting of the Lyman 48. I am in the process of mounting a Lyman 48 on a Krag I am building. The 48 base is somewhat difficult to mount and can be mounted in several places. Yours in mounted forward of the magazine cut off. To do that requires some cutting/grinding/milling to the rear end of the side magazine plate. I wonder if there is any way, you could send me a pic of how the side plate has been modified so I could get an idea how to do it.

As an aside, I noticed a screw and nut on top of the bolt holding the extractor in place. Normaly the pin/screw is flush with the top of the bolt. The longer screw with nut was a replacement used to mount a Rice peep sight on the bolt at some point in time. You can remove the nut and flush the screw and it will do no harm.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

The side magazine plate has been milled to clear the base of the 48K. I didn't remove the sight to gauge the relief but it look like the 'smith used (maybe?) a 3/8" ball end mill. (See pic below)

Took me a while to figure out that nut and screw for the bolt mounted peep sight. I'd seen a picture of a mounted Rice sight but didn't make the connection until I started researching the old NRA sporters.

Hope this helps you out.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Thanks for the pic. That shelf on the rear of the magazine side plate is part of the original shape. Behind it is the screw that holds it on. It is under your sight base. That part is flat. To mount the Lyman 48, that flat space has to be thinned a hair to fit under the sight base. I will probably just take a file to it.

I have my receiver locked down in the drill press right now to drill the holes for the sight base. My HSS drill bits just spin on the metal. Some folks grind a little off to get below the surface hardness, but I opted to order out a carbide bit.

This sorta surprised me. The front receiver ring of Springfield 03s are extremely hard, but the rear receiver ring where you place a receiver sight is very soft and easy to drill and tap.

I installed a third action screw in the Krag, by drilling and tapping into the bottom receiver ring. We are talking hard! That took a carbide bit as well.

I just rehabed an old Krag sporter that had the high extractor screw and nut for a Rice sight. I installed a Redfield no drill receiver sight and it landed square on top of that high screw. I removed the nut and cut off the screw flush with the top of the bolt. A little 44/40 blue and everything looked and worked fine.

Thanks for you help and info.

[madsenshooter]

Interesting to note that the hardness of the Krag receivers is pretty variable. Sedgely would only work on the ones that would take a file, saying the others were too hard and perhaps brittle. I have one receiver in the 13,000 serial # range that has cracks radiating from the right hand corner of the locking lug recess. It really rings when struck, very high pitched, and is too hard to file.