W-296 in 40S&W Care to Comment?

[BT Sniper]

Well I have been debating this for a while, even posted on another forum here so figured I would run this one by you guys.

Question is how will/would W-296 powder perform in the 40S&W? I have a few ideas of my own from my studies as well as many other's opinions. Anyone care to venture a thought.

I have two guns for possible test. An EAA 40 witness pistol and a hypoint 40 cal carbine with 16" barrel. I can here you guys say there are many other powders that work well why not buy brand X? Only answer I have for you is because I have 5+lbs of W-296 and I'm courious.

I figure I would use a small pistol magnum primmer with a very good crimp on bullet to get the best chance at best ignition possible. I took some measurements and with one of my custom thin jacket 150 grain brass JHP bullets I can fit 14.5 grains of W-296 at 100% load, maybe a slight bit compressed.

Now for what questions or concerns I may have:

How does AA#9 compare in burn rate to W-296? I can find published data with the #9. With a 155 grain they list 13.0 grains as max with same FPS as the rest yet less pressure of course. move up to 200 grain bullet it is even listed as a "good load". I am pretty sure AA#9 is pretty darn close to same burn rate as 296. Comments?

Question has been brought up that not enough pressure would be able to be generated with the 296 since you would not be able to fit enough into such small case capacity. Comments?

My 40 carbine is a "blow back" bolt operation semi automatic if I'm correct. I have heard that if the bolt where to unlock before pressure curve has died off obviously this would create a potentially dangerous situation. Comments?

Will the 16" barrel aid in performance or hinder it with the excess volume compaired to the lesser amount of powder? Could there be a point at which this combination has used up all the powder's energy and runs out of steam before bullet reaches end of barrel? Comments?

Do you think the W-296 will work better with lighter bullet ie. 150 grains or the heaver 190 BT bullets? Nosler reports very good results with Blue Dot and a 135 grain bullet yet does not list load data for any heavier bullets and the blue dot????? I don't know about this one? Comments?

How does the computer load programs work, "quick loads" I think it is called? Anyone have experience with this program that can run some numbers for me?

OK last question. If 14.5 looks to be about 100% case capisity what do you suppose a starting load should be? I'm sure there is many recemendations on this one but this is W-296 and it is known to not like reducing the loads. Comments?

I may try to find the answers to these questions for myself with a live test but probably have the gun (carbine) clamped down in a lead sled of sorts with a string to pull trigger or standing behind big tree :)

I'll gladly listen to any comments or addvise any of you wish to share. In the mean time good shooting.

BT

[chaos]

Best advise is DO NOT do it. Winchester and everyone who writes manuals strongly recommends against reduced loadings with 296.

If the data is not published, then DO NOT do it. ESP

Your stated load may even be a gross overload. Trade that powder to someone who can put it to use in the proper application before you mess around and hurt yourself.

[sagacious]

The test rounds shot remotely may function without mishap, but sooner or later you'll be shooting them in a firearm held at only arm's length from your face. There may come a day when you regretfully remember all the advice you heard about not using W296 in the 40SW, and wish you had heeded it, but instead tried it anyway. Almost always, the more someone researches an idea, the more he convinces himself that it's a good idea.

Do not let economy and frugality be your guide-- let your common sense be your guide. Good luck, and stay safe.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
+1 on the above. If you really need more zip save up your shekles and get a 10mm.
Magnum pistol powders are for magnun loads.
Only time I ever stuck a boolit in a barrel was when I decided to down load #7. It worked fine for 20 some rounds. Then there was a pop. Boolit was half way down the 6" bore.

[shaggist]

Go to the Hogdon site and get their powder burn rate chart. Download it and make a copy, as it is very handy to have around. AA#9 is a faster burning powder than W-296 or H110 by several steps. 296 and 110 are NOT to be reduced for a starting load, as they do weird things as far as pressure is concerned. I use AA#9 in my M1 carbine, but not in my 357 mag or 41 mag. They get H110, as I get maximum velocity with reasonable pressure levels. But I don't reduce charges.

[jonblack]

Listed burn rates vary from chart to chart. Burn rates do not vary linearly from powder to powder as listed in the chart. Using burn rate is not the best way to work up a load.

That being said you would be doing yourself a favor by sticking with published loads. I know you have 5 pounds of powder, but buy some more suitable powder. You can look at it like you are purchasing an insurance policy against blowing up your gun.

BT, we need you! We need your fingers and eyes! Please don't blow them up! Of course that is said tongue-in-cheek. You you are a very valued member of the community and a true pioneer that is really pushing the envelope with your ideas and we'd like to see you stay safe.

jonblack

[BT Sniper]

Yeh! Not worth the risk I suppose. I do have plenty of powder to use in the 40 and a 44 mag to shot up the 296 in. I don't shoot as much as I like to anyway and one lb of any of the standard $20 powders in the 40 loads better then 1K worth of rounds. Darn curiosity bug been buging me latly I suppose.

I do have a lb each of W-231, HS-6 and Blue Dot. This should cover a broad range of bullet weights and burn rates. Hope to get some testing done possibly this weekend.

I sent an inquire to Hodgen reguarding the use of H-110 or W296 in the 40S&W. I'll let you guys know what they had to say just for the curiosity sake of it.

Thanks for the comments, yes keeping all body parts intact is a good thing.

BT

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

OH Good, you just posted and you saved me from typing a big long warning post.

BT I like Accruate #5
first it is listed in a couple manuals.
second, according to the LEE manual, it is the most Dense (# of grains per starting load)
since there is limited case capacity, there is a better chance to find a good load that isn't a compression load.
I use the starting load for a 190gr. bullet for the 193gr. BTBJHP
LEE even lists a 195 gr.
Jon

this is a photo of the LEE manual (disregard that the cover of the other manual is in the photo)
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1287.jpg

this is a photo of the Accruate Manual (disregard that the cover of the other manual is in the photo)
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1286.jpg

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

OH, I would consider a slower burning powder like Blue Dot for Rifle only loads. I haven't done any research on that yet, since I don't have a rifle in 40....yet !
can you seat the bullet out farther than SAMMI in your rifle, that'll help case capacity as I'm sure you know.
Jon

[sargenv]

If you could seat the bullet way out like I do in my 610, you might be able to get enough powder in there to build up enough pressure to make it work, but I suspect it might not really be worth it being that there are slightly faster powders out there that should get you what you want. I loaded about 9.2 of Longshot with one of my 193 gr HP's that were made from the 9mm, and out of my 6.5" 610 made about 1150 fps using 40 S&W brass loaded to 1.260" which is 10 mm length territory. As I recall, ading more powder actually had the velocity drop. I have yet to try either newish Canister Blue dot or a batch I've had since the days of Hercules Blue Dot. I also have some H110, Accurate #9, WC 820, SR 4756, and SR 7625 to try out. Maybe I can do a bit of research now that I am a few months from Duck Season. Right now my USPSA load for the 193's is 4.2 of Solo 1000 which is actually max for the 200 gr bullet. I will be testing the velocity to make sure I make major (which is about 855 fps) in my 5" barreled Para-Ordnance P16-40.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks guys,

I have read very good things about the AA brands of powder for the 40S&W with severial of you recemending it. I just need to find some now, perferably locally but looks like I'll have to drive a bit further or order online and pay shipping + hazardous fees for some AA powder. I'm close to the big town of PDX, I may be able to find some there. As soon as I find some I will be for sure trying out some of the AA # 5 and probalby #7 in the 40 with these bullets.

I would have to check for max length as I'm sure I may get a few extra thousands but probalby would not be able to load in clip defeating the purpose of a simi auto.

Sarge, I did see your long loads. Looked good. I don't have any revolvers though.

I know finding a good load for the 40 will not be that difficult as I have not set my sights too high and we do have a post started for just this topic back there somewhere. I think more then anything this 296 infatuation of mine is just a chance to get some of my thoughts out here for others to comment on.

May actually do some shooting in the IPDA matches at local club. Friend invited me to join him in any of the upcoming monthly shoots. Looks like a lot of fun to me. Of course I'll be shooting the custom 190 BTBJHPs out of my EAA 40 S&W. Just need to load some up now.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Had I been able to find AA#5 at my local suplier I would have probably stuck with it and not looked back. I'll find some soon enough. I'll look foward to a good thread on the load development with these BT bullets. So anyone got some opinions on HS-6,W-231 and Blue Dot? Used the Blue dot with good results already with the 193 BT but was just having fun plinking and didn't really "test" much about it.

BT

[bohica2xo]

If you could seat the bullet way out like I do in my 610, you might be able to get enough powder in there to build up enough pressure to make it work.

Exactly. 296 is not some sort of magical explosive. Light loads rolling around loose in a 44 mag case have been known to cause problems, but that is not the case here with a 40S&W. A compressed charge of 296 in a 40S&W will probably deliver low velocities, and larger muzzle flashes in a pistol. Much like loading a 223 with 4831.

And where does this mindless fear of compressed charges come from? 10.5 grains of AA#9 behind a 124 grain 9mm bullet is a compressed load. Right out of a loading manual.

B.

[BT Sniper]

No Fear here! though I probably will pass on the 296 in a 40 S&W for the moment. I have compressed a few loads of 296 in the 44 AMP that is for sure. We shall see what the more appropriate powders do for me instead with the 40.

BT

[Jim_Fleming]

BT, +1 against using 296 in .40 S&W.

Save it for your .357's and .44 Mag's, it'll work great there, right where it belongs...

If you need someone to take that WW-296 offa your hands the guy that is writing this post might know where you can find a good home for that particular puppy...

:bigsmyl2:

LOL!

[sargenv]

While I long load for my 610, if you have a 40 cal based on the 1911 frame, it too accepts the long loaded 40's.. I load the same length for my Para P16 as I do for my 610, 1.260".