Cast boolits in 458 WM and 458 Lott

[JFE]

I have read reports of varying success of using cast boolits in the 458 Win mag and 458 Lott. I'd appreciate those that have experiences with cast boolits in factory rifles sharing their experiences, whether good or bad.

Would you please specify whether the rifle has a custom throat or twist rate and if possible, what the specs are.

I'm trying to determine just how easy or difficult getting these rifles to shoot cast is like.

Thanks in advance.

Joe

[waksupi]

Joe, I've been shooting mine, with about five grains of kicker powder, and filling the case to slight compression, with either WC 860, or WC 872. I'm using a Postell bullet, at around 560 gr. Don't know the velocity, haven't chrony'ed it yet. It has some authority. I took it out a couple weekends ago, and we were able to keep the bullets on a ram at 190 yards real regular, until flinch set in. This, with a factory Model 70 Winchester. Let me know if you have these powders on hand, and I will give you better specifics.

[JFE]

Waksupi,

Thanks.

I take it you havent checked accuracy from a benchrest yet ? Always a bit tricky with something as heavy recoiling as a 458. Would be interested to know how that works out if you do.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does a Postell bullet look like ?

Joe

[waksupi]

Waksupi,

Thanks.

I take it you havent checked accuracy from a benchrest yet ? Always a bit tricky with something as heavy recoiling as a 458. Would be interested to know how that works out if you do.

Pardon my ignorance, but what does a Postell bullet look like ?

Joe

I have got around 2 3/4" at a hundred from the bench. This is with apeture sights. This caliber rifle has no use for a scope. I've been telling the bosses at work, as soon as you put a scope on a big rifle, it is no longer a dangerous game rifle, it is once again, simply a hunting rifle.

The Postell is more intended for the Sharps rifle, for long range competition. I'd almost call it a spitzer. Enter Postell into a search engine, and I'm sure you will come up with a diagram in short order. Something lighter, in bullet weight, with a flat meplate, would be more sensible for everyday shooting on this continent. The bullet design, would not be a good hunting bullet. I know from experience, they are not good killers. I had a deer go a couple hundred yards after a lung hit with this bullet, from my old '86..

[Bass Ackward]

JFE,

How difficult? Do you mean how accurate? Hard to tell

I had a 14 twist that was sub MOA if I stayed below 1300 fps. This gun would hold 1/2" with 300 grain Barnes bullets with the throtle open. Full loads with cast could produce 1 1/2" with cast. Lube was critical at various temps.

I built a 20 twist and I smile a lot more often now.

[JFE]

BA ,

Thanks your comments.

I'm really trying to find out how accurate & flexible rifles in these calibers are with stock chambers & cast boolits - particularly as both of these 458's have relatively large throats. Comments on jacketed performance would also be appreciated.

Most of the comments I've heard and read about the 458WM have not been particularly positive. There are always exceptions and all I'm trying to do is to canvass this forum for their experiences.

The background to this is that I would like to build a 458 myself and need to decide between stock throating or opt for a custom chamber with a short throat. I expect to shoot mainly cast out of this rifle and would prefer to shoot a range of cast boolits through the rifle, not just heavyweights. The short throat would turn it into a handloading only proposition, but that is no problem for my application.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

The background to this is that I would like to build a 458 myself and need to decide between stock throating or opt for a custom chamber with a short throat. I expect to shoot mainly cast out of this rifle and would prefer to shoot a range of cast boolits through the rifle, not just heavyweights. The short throat would turn it into a handloading only proposition, but that is no problem for my application. Joe


Joe,

Since you would have excess case capacity for cast in either the Winny or Lott, seating the bullet deeper would actually aid you in your quest. Also look at various jacketed. The taper usually starts right after the canalure to ensure that it feeds and chambers. So a short throat isn't necessarily going to hamper you as much as you think if you can accept slightly lower velocities. If you went with a Lott and NO throat, you could still probably reach Winny velocities. The down side is poor case fill ratios with lighter cast. Depends on what you want to do.

I shoot a 458 X 2. Freebore on that is about .100 as it is basically made for less than 400 grain J-bullets. About a 52 grain case capacity with a 420 grain cast. Marry that up to a 20 twist and I can handle 500 grain bullets and more if I bore ride a little. But in truth, it is about perfection with 420 to 450 grain cast depending on bullet design. I would recommend the 450 Marlin cartridge. But I don't know about brass availability in your neck of the woods.

[JFE]

BA

You make valid points. The shorter case size would probably be fine for my purposes but I dont really want a wildcat and all that would entail. Most likely I would opt for the 458 rather than the Lott as I dont need all that much horsepower. However I am nonetheless interested in seeing how the Lott performs with a variety of cast with its long throat.

The std 458 WM provides cheap dies, cases and better re-sale in the event of ever losing interest (and we always do at some point). If I opt for the short throat then it can always be converted to full 458 duty by opening up the throat for re-sale.

Joe

[RangerBob]

Try the RCBS 500gr FPGC bullet over the proper charge of IMR-4895 for about 1500fps in the .458WM.

In my gun, this load will shoot about 3/4" at 50yds and about 1.8" at 100yds.

You have to try harder to get lighter bullets to shoot. I have a couple loads that do alright, but not as accurate as the RCBS 500gr. 3031 has proved to be the best powder for the lighter slugs. Don't try to run the smaller bullets over about 1600fps. I've also had better results with 350gr bullets sized to .464. The extra diameter fills the huge throat.

The same gun will shoot 405gr Remingtion bullets into about 1 1/4" at 100yds with a stiff charge of 3031 pushing 2150fps.

[JFE]

Bob - thanks for sharing your experiences.

My understanding is that the throats of 458 WM and 458 Lott are quite different in design. The 458 WM appears to have more of a 'forcing cone' than a conventional rifle throat with a cylindical throat and leade. Info from Clymer suggests that the 458 has a 'forcing cone' with a diameter of 0.469 just ahead of the chamber with a relatively gentle 30 minute throat angle. This would provide for quite a wide and long throat have a very generous bullet fit. I can understand the reason for having this in a DGR, but to my mind this would create potential problems of boolit fit and limitations, particularly the use of shorter boolits. The Lott has a conventional throat, albeit a fairly long one.

Like you mentioned one way might be either to have a long bullet that bridges the gap between the end of the case and the 'forcing cone' and the other maybe to use a much larger diameter boolit that would swage down in the 'forcing cone' as per your experiences.

Any others out there with cast boolit experiences in the 458 WM & 458 Lott ? Surely there must be more the two guys out there who have tinkered with these chamberings ?

Joe

[charger 1]

Time to ring in with some facts.Or atleast the facts I,ve gathered. I was in the process of ordering another custom mold two use in my 458 wm whitworth. Also to use in my ruger 77 lott. But you know its real easy to buy mold after mold that sits and looks pretty.I AINT DOIN THAT So while at the local gun show picked up an old lee 457-405 fp hp mold, thinking to myself that if I can convert this mold into roughly what I want to end up with and get good performance out of a dozen or so boolits then I'm a go. If neither gun will shoot the creation worth a crap or at a decent speed then why spend for the custom mold. I quick fast ground of the hollow pointer,and cast up a couple doz with my ww's +2% tin. Heat treated them to 30-31 bn,took em to my little unimat and buzzed the back drive band off for a GC. size,lubed,and GC'd them at .460,the same as my chamber cast showed of the lott. chamber casting the 458 wm is not even possible in my opinion unless you use a garage funnel for the mold...I'll sum up a long story short.My whitworth 458 will sometimes put my comp guns to shame with copper. however it will not out do the meger 45/70 on speed while staying accurate with cast IMHO largely due to the throat which is a butchered attempt at making a big gun out of a mid sized one. Now that said,and before you's ask yes I tried every speed of powder under the sun. The story with the lott is quite different. I have read that it is the 458 of choice with cast and those folk be true. Having very defined chamber measurements I just seated the bullet out to touch rifling .170" on top of 74 grains of imr3031. I forgot to mention this weirdo projectile weighs 435 grains and on that powder passes the chrony at 2440 fps. With every shot I take I'm watching what you would expect from a well performing cast combo. The 100 yard group is constantly shrinking. Down to under 3/4" now. I really cant be bothered monkeying with the 458wm and cast no more,it just doesnt pay back dividends. The lott does,and how So quick fast on order is a 450grain lfn .460 mold with .170 of contact past crimp and GC.

[canuck4570]

I have many Winchester Ruger and my last his a Cz they all shoot good..... but the most accurate load I mean 1 to 1 and a half at 100 yards is 65 gr of 3031 IMR this is in all my 458..... you have to put powder with funnel and it is compress a bit.....on the chrono it goes 2014 fps average...... the bullet is Saeco 540 grain.... lube is Alox .....aloy is w.w. aire cooled....

[JFE]

Chargar - very useful feedback. Nice loads for the Lott.

Canuck - have you had any luck using lighter weight cast, say 300-400gr in your various 458's ?

[RangerBob]

Mt. Baldy sells a 375gr WFNGC that will stay accurate to about 1900fps in my Ruger #1 Tropical (.458WM) using 3031. Accurate means <2" at 100yds.

That's been the best "light weight" cast bullet that I've used.

I have a 350gr Lyman PB that will do OK to about 1600fps.

I have a 300gr Lyman PB that shoot awful at any speed.

I have a 400gr HB that shoots real well at 1200-1400fps with 2400 or 5744. It stinks with slower powders.

I've tried paper patching nearly all of these. It doesn't help.

But the 500gr RCBS GC will stay accurate to 1950fps. I can't stand any more fun than that.

Bob.

[charger 1]

Mt. Baldy sells a 375gr WFNGC that will stay accurate to about 1900fps in my Ruger #1 Tropical (.458WM) using 3031. Accurate means <2" at 100yds.

Bob.

Which a person should be able to expect out of a 45/70

[RangerBob]

I'm not disputing anything you've said.

I'm simply reporting what has worked for me and what has not.

I personally have little interest in cast bullets over 2000fps.

BTW - the Lott chamber and throat have changed some over the years. When the Lott was a wildcat it had a throat similar to the .458WM. That allowed the 500 jacketed bullets to be loaded a little heavier. The current factory Lott throat is shorter and these rifles can not be loaded as heavily. But, as you have found, the current set-up is much better for cast bullets.

[NickSS]

I have only owned one 458 WM it was a Ruger #1. I originally bought the rifle to shoot 45-70 class cast bullet loads. So I started out with my Lyman 457125 400 gr cast from wheel weights and enought 3031 to give me about 1350 fps. Results was really poor. I upped powder charges to the 1500 fps range with no improovement. This rifle would shoot hornady JSP 500 gr slugs into 1 moa groups at 100 yards with the same powder charges. So I bought a Lee 500 gr GC mold and tried again. Net results were that I had to get the bullet going at at least 1800fps before I got good accuracy. All bullets were sized .458 as that was the only sizing die I had at the time. At 1800 fps the rifle was no longer a plinker for which I bought it so I sold it.

[Bullshop]

I have only owned one 458 WM it was a Ruger #1. I originally bought the rifle to shoot 45-70 class cast bullet loads. So I started out with my Lyman 457125 400 gr cast from wheel weights and enought 3031 to give me about 1350 fps. Results was really poor. I upped powder charges to the 1500 fps range with no improovement. This rifle would shoot hornady JSP 500 gr slugs into 1 moa groups at 100 yards with the same powder charges. So I bought a Lee 500 gr GC mold and tried again. Net results were that I had to get the bullet going at at least 1800fps before I got good accuracy. All bullets were sized .458 as that was the only sizing die I had at the time. At 1800 fps the rifle was no longer a plinker for which I bought it so I sold it.
Nickss
You sure bout that 457125 bein a 400 grainer? A 125 should be over 500gn even in WW. Sounds like you have a bobbed mold. A 125 is a bore rider and I wouldtn spect good things from a bore rider in a standerd 458 chamber.
BIC/BS

[charger 1]

I must say I continually am amazed at all who say they are not interested in speed when it comes to cast. Given that "PERMENANT WOUND CHANEL" is a direct function of me plat,and can you guess? Ya you got it,SPEED. GIMME SPEED!!!!!!!

[Bullshop]

Charger 1
You must have read the little blue book. Me too and I agree.
God willing I will be out moosing tomarrow with my new Marlin XLR 45/70.
This year for the first time I will be using the light RCBS boolit. Why ? Speed ! Its doing about 2150 at 10 feet from the muzzle. I never used this boolit before because B00 has a front sight dovetailed into the barrel and is too low for that boolit. At the lowest setting on the old Lyman receiver sight it still shot a foot high at 100. Now with this new XLR I put a 4x compact Lupy (cant see them soghts no mo) in extra low rings and YEHAW that thang shoots! Now lets see what kinda hole they make.
BIC/BS

[charger 1]

I'll bite. Is there a blue book on this stuff to read? Whats it called?

Something I did notice while lighting up that mound of 3031 in the lott was that the FPS over the chrony was near identical whether I used magnum or standard primers,but the group shrunk quite noticeably with standard primers. It seems with that load in that gun that even though its a magnum ,the cast prefers a less violent take off than can be had with magnum CCI's

[charger 1]

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm

[Bullshop]

The little blue book is called " jacketed performance with cast bullets" by Veral Smith. If you havnt read it you should. Lots of good stuff in there about perminent wound chanel related to terminal velocity, meplate and stuff like that. Lot of other good stuff too. Still available from LBT.
What you said in a previous post sounded like it came right from the book, thats why I thought you read it.
BIC/BS