45/70 lightweight

[softpoint]

I was looking around for a 45/70 collar button mold , and not finding anything without having a custom mold cut, I was wondering about having a 340 gr. Lee milled off short. Either right below the first lube groove, or maybe even right below the crimp groove, and then use the crimp groove for lube, and crimp the bullet right above the drive band. Or what is the possibility of plugging the mold from the drive band forward, creating a full wadcutter?
I'm just thinking I'd like a light boolit to hunt small game to about 50 yards. The round ball might be OK, but all I/m finding are .457, and I'd need a .460 or so. I think a boolit would be better anyway. What are ya'lls opinions?

[BoolitBill]

Have you checked BRP molds? The very first one on this page may be what you are looking for: http://www.brp.castpics.net/R2.html
I have some BRP molds and the quality is very good. You can choose the number of cavities and if you want one hollow pointed as well. It just seems to me to be easier to have one made for you rather than trying to modify an existing mold.

[Larry Gibson]

Another good place to check is with Rapine Moulds. I use their 460250 (mine cast 270 gr bullets) extensively in my 45-70s. I load them over 8 gr of Bullseye for 1050 fps. Another excellent mould they have is the 460210HB. This is a very HB'd straight sided bullet with almost a WC nose. It is extremely accurate over 6 gr Bulleye at 950 fps out of my TD Carbine. It is a very deadly small game load also.

Larry Gibson

[Tim357]

Lyman 454190 Beagled out works pretty well

[thx997303]

The link isn't working because you've added a v at the end of the link.

Delete that v and it will work.

[BoolitBill]

thx997303
Thank you, I don't know how it happened, and I didn't notice it but thanks to you I have it corrected!

[softpoint]

More options than I thought! I am feeding several hungry 45/70's and I have a bunch of molds between 300 and 500 gr. but no lightweight.
I like the looks of that BRP mold, that is just about what I had in mind. But it wouldn't be too expensive to cannibalize a Lee mold to see how that would work, either.....[smilie=w:

[StrawHat]

There was a group buy for the Collar Button mold a few years ago.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=15210&highlight=catshooter

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=23514&highlight=collar+button

Perhaps an ad in the wanted section could get you a mold or cast boolits.

[Larry Gibson]

The left bullet is the Rapine 460210. Note the flat nose, HB and long bearing surface. This is an excellent gallery and small game bullet as previously mentioned. The second from the left is the Rapine 460250 which is really my most used bullet in my 45-70s. Both are excellent bullets for your intended purposes.

Larry Gibson

[softpoint]

The left bullet is the Rapine 460210. Note the flat nose, HB and long bearing surface. This is an excellent gallery and small game bullet as previously mentioned. The second from the left is the Rapine 460250 which is really my most used bullet in my 45-70s. Both are excellent bullets for your intended purposes.

Larry Gibson

Both those boolits look good, can the hollow base one be driven about 1100 or so fps. ? I might not always want to run a plinking boolit that fast, but for small game or vermin, 50 yard performance ?:drinks:

[montana_charlie]

NEI has a collar button for .45 caliber.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/458-150-pb.jpg

http://www.neihandtools.com

CM

[GLL]

This is Bruce’s photo of the BRP 462-210PB “Gallery”
http://www.fototime.com/A2B07BF71605FDA/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/6725F00EC81AE4B/standard.jpg

Jerry

[Larry Gibson]

Both those boolits look good, can the hollow base one be driven about 1100 or so fps. ? I might not always want to run a plinking boolit that fast, but for small game or vermin, 50 yard performance ?:drinks:

Yes, if cast of a little harder alloy they can be driven to 1100+ fps without blowing the skirt. However with that "shuttlecock" balance and flatter nose they begin to lose accuracy when they start going trans sonic. thus the 950 - 1000 fps load (950 in the carbine, 975 fps in the Officer's Model and 1000 fps in the full length trapdoor barrel). Trust me that short stubby nose has a flameplat from the sprueplate cut off and there is a wide full diameter shoulder. It thumps squirrels, porky pines, rock chucks and rabbits really hard, even managed a coyote once with it out of the OM. Think about whether or not a short stubby 200 gr SWC out of a .45 ACP at 950 fps is "enough" for small game?

Larry Gibson

[softpoint]

Yes, if cast of a little harder alloy they can be driven to 1100+ fps without blowing the skirt. However with that "shuttlecock" balance and flatter nose they begin to lose accuracy when they start going trans sonic. thus the 950 - 1000 fps load (950 in the carbine, 975 fps in the Officer's Model and 1000 fps in the full length trapdoor barrel). Trust me that short stubby nose has a flameplat from the sprueplate cut off and there is a wide full diameter shoulder. It thumps squirrels, porky pines, rock chucks and rabbits really hard, even managed a coyote once with it out of the OM. Think about whether or not a short stubby 200 gr SWC out of a .45 ACP at 950 fps is "enough" for small game?

Larry Gibson

1000 fps. is fine for killing power. I just pulled the "1100fps." out of hat. I sure like the looks of that BRP 210 grain, though. Is there any accuracy improvement by going hollow base.? I know the concept is to "slug up" the skirt to bore size on firing, but if I get a .460+ mold, it ought not need slugging up?
That NEI mold looks nice, but it is a little pointy for what I want, I think.:drinks:

[Larry Gibson]

softpoint

Is there any accuracy improvement by going hollow base.? I know the concept is to "slug up" the skirt to bore size on firing, but if I get a .460+ mold, it ought not need slugging up?

There is no accuracy improvement as such over the Rapine 460250. The difference is in the obvious "whop" on game. The pointier, with a small meplat 275 gr bullets just don't whop small game like the 210 gr HB ones do. I can certainly cast the 275s much quicker as it is a 2 cavity and I don't have to mess with the HP part either. Thats why my "general shooting" at rocks, pine cones, cow pies etc. is with the 275 gr bullet. I always carry several of the 210HPs in the cartridge belt and use them on squirrels, rabbits, close range rock chucks, porky pines and the occasional close shot on a coyote. Having them available to me with the very obvious increased hitting power on small game is worth the extra casting effort.

Actually when cast of a harder alloy like WW+ 2% tin the as cast diameter from my mould is .463. That makes them perfect for a light tumble in LLA and then shot as cast in original TDs. For use in the .458/.459 barrels I do size them to .4615 and lube with my BP lube which works fine for smokeless loads at this velocity. I also think the much longer bearing surface helps with accuracy for such a light weight bullet. I managed to recover one bullet from a very large rock chuck, right at 16 lbs. He was sitting doing the "bhudda" with is back to me (my favorite shot;-). The bullet hit it square in the middle and when through a very full paunch of fresh green alfalfa. When I kicked him over part of the bullet was sticking out of the belly so I pulled it out. What was interesting was the bullet (cast of range lead with 2-3% tin if I remember right) had completly flattened out with the skirt expanding out and around the nose, basically inverting on itself.

BTW; that 6 gr load out of a long barreled rifle is fairly quite, an additional benifit.

Larry Gibson

[montana_charlie]

Good Lord!
How much 'whop' does it take to kill small game at 50 yards with a .45 caliber rifle?
A Ruger Mark II does a fine job at that distance...with .22LR.
CM

[Larry Gibson]

Montana

Many of us (probably most of us) use other cartridges for small game than the .22LR simply because we want to and can. The more whop the cleaner/quicker the kill. Besides, I don't have a TD in .22LR and there's not much romance in "hostiles to the front" with a Ruger Mark II nice pistol though it is. Kindly allow an old man his hallucinations;-). We all have our choice what to use, you have yours and some of us differ.

Larry Gibson

[montana_charlie]

We all have our choice what to use, you have yours and some of us differ.
I have no problem with using the 'rifle of your choice' on small game. If that is a 45/70 trapdoor, it sounds like fun to me.

What I was marveling at is the notion that 210 grains, 250 grains, or 275 grains might be something worth cogitating over when it comes to getting enough 'whop' at fifty yards.

Considering that rifle bullet placement is almost automatic at fifty yards, it seems that any of those bullets would do a creditable job on anything smaller than a Budweiser Clydesdale...

[Larry Gibson]

I have no problem with using the 'rifle of your choice' on small game. If that is a 45/70 trapdoor, it sounds like fun to me.

What I was marveling at is the notion that 210 grains, 250 grains, or 275 grains might be something worth cogitating over when it comes to getting enough 'whop' at fifty yards.

Considering that rifle bullet placement is almost automatic at fifty yards, it seems that any of those bullets would do a creditable job on anything smaller than a Budweiser Clydesdale...

Charlie

Contrary to the movies and TV a RN .45 cal slug at 800 - 1000 fps will not throw a man 20 feet back against the bar......especially on smaller game like rock chucks, rabbits and porky pines and even the larger red digger or rock squirrels. Even with a small meplat on the RN 460275s I have had the animals run or crawl off upwards of 25 -50 yards or get down a burrow before dying. That is not my cup of tea. Many will quip that with a .45 cal anything you don't need expansion. But, if you prefer to kill animals as quickly as possible like I do, then a RN bullet just does not suffice. This is what led Kieth to develope his SWC because it kills better. It is what led to the development of WFN bullets because they kill better. I don't like to see an animal, any animal, I shoot crawl or run off to die a lingering death. Again, just personal choice.

In the discussion above it is not the weight of the bullet under consideration (once down under 300 gr for such 45-70 small game bullets) but the shape of the bullet nose. The 210 gr HB bullet is proven to be a much more efficient killer than either the Rapine 460250 or the Lyman 457130 collar buttons and probably the BRP Gallery bullet pictured. I had a couple hundred 150 gr WC collar buttons a guy gave me a long time ago (unknown what mould) and they were very efficient killers but accuracy was iffy at 50 yards for small game. It is well known that the target WC .38 Special load is a killer all out of proportion to it's velocity or bullet weight. It is the WC shape of the nose that makes it so effective.

If I'm going to kill anything then it is simply my choice to do it as quickly as possible. Now I'm not insinuating anyone who does other than me is cruel or anything of that sort so please don't misunderstand me. It's just my own personal choice and why I mention the additional "whop" of the 210 gr bullet. I shoot lots of ground squirrels with the .22LR also and have for many, many years. Most of the guys I go shooting them with use generic "on sale" .22LR ammo, mostly just standard velocity RNs and claim any "hit" on the squirrel as a good one. I've no qualm with that but my own choice is the higher end HPs like MiniMags or Yellow Jackets that leave a body there where they are shot. The last few years I've been using Blazers out of my Remington M504 that I've worked over putting a Nasty Nose on them and many times also a HP with the Paco Kelly tool. Accuracy after such swaging is 1/2 to 3/4" at 50 yards for 10 shot groups and the "whop" on squireels is much greater than even that of the super high speed HP .22LRs. With the .22LR, even with such modified ammo or factory HPs, I only take head or heart/lung shots. With the .22 Hornet or .223 I can just "shoot the squiirel" as even with my 225415 cast bullet loads a solid body hit is instant death. However, with the lower powered .22LR I prefer the increased "whop" of my Paco modified ammo. Afurther benifit is the Blazers cost less than half as much as the high end .22LR stuff and once worked over are more accurate. BTW; a Hornady or Speer .32 swaged lead HBWCs over 2.7 - 3.2 gr of Bullseye in most .30 and .31 cal rifles are very deadly on squirrels out to 75 yards for the very same reason...."whop";-)

Personal choice of a more efficient killing nose style is all, ot the weight.

Larry Gibson

[montana_charlie]

Charlie

Contrary to the movies and TV a RN .45 cal slug at 800 - 1000 fps will not throw a man 20 feet back against the bar
If you think my firearm knowledge comes primarily from TV, it's a pipdream you made up...not based on anything I have ever said.

If I'm going to kill anything then it is simply my choice to do it as quickly as possible.
I like to consider myself a precision shooter. I can only maintain that illusion if my game falls dead where shot. It doesn't happen every time, but often enough to keep me making that claim.

It started when I was learning to take head shots on rabbits and squirrels for the table.

I use CCI MiniMag in all of my .22's, but have only bought one box of hollow points in my life. I found them to be less accurate than solids.
I guarantee that, when shooting within fifty yards with a .22 rifle at standing game, I can kill anything coyote size or below with one shot....with the standard round-nosed, 40 grain bullet.

I once killed a coyote (with one shot) at greater than 150 yards with a Ruger Mark II and the standard bullet. I don't know the actual range. I only know I held the entire front sight above the rear notch to get the distance.
Yes...there was a lot of luck involved in placing a fatal hit at that range with a pistol...but the bullet killed her 'efficiently' enough that she only walked eight steps.

My belief (and TV has nothing to do with it) is that properly placed, 200 grains will kill anything at fifty yards, no matter how it's shaped. And that is said with the understanding that I consider one-shot kills as the only proper way to kill something.

CM

[Larry Gibson]

Charlie

The TV thing was a generalized statement, not meaning you specifically at all. There's no need to take anything personally here. I was just explaining why I choose the bullets I do. Yes a 200 gr bullet properly place (many times improperly laced also) will kill most anything at 50 yards. The whole point was that some shapes kill quicker than others. I like, and choose those bullet shapes, which kill the quickest. No sense in getting in an uproar over our difference of opinion because it's not all that important to me.

I have a lot of faith in my own marksmanship ability also. I also know that the lowly .22LR kills. However, it is not my choice for many applications. Were the .22LR with solids and the Ruger Mk II all we had available then I don't suppose we'd not be bother with this forum. The point is there are a lot more choices than that. I've seen a lot of squirrels, rabbits, rockchuck, porky pines and even coyotes go a lot farther that 7 steps with a fatal shot from a .22LR, particularly with solids. Unless hit in the head, as you did that coyote, then other bullets shapes kill quicker and I've found many that are just as accurate for the intended purpose as the solid bullets. But even then that was the choice of those who used them and I am not saying that choice is right or wrong. Just saying it's not my choice, I simply choose the more efficient bullet shapes is all I'm saying. Why you have such an apparent problem with my choice of bullets in my 45-70s is a mystery to me. You are certainly free to use what you want in your 45-70, .22LR or any other firearm.

I think I've stated my position here quite plainly and have no desire to continue this dicussion as it's not really making much sense to me.

Larry Gibson

[badge176]

I asked a buddy to mill off the heel and the first lube groove... It casts at 282g out of WW

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24433&stc=1&d=1281491084

[Gelandangan]

well.. I am glad to hear that there are others that like to snipe at wabbits with 45/70 :bigsmyl2:

Here's a picture of mine, shot with a 470gn HP CB.. not exactly lightweight, but the other mold gives 535gn..

[kennisondan]

Poor rabbit .. that is going to leave a mark.. lol..
I tend to think that in my experience a good hit ends up with a dead animal right there... when I shoot ammo that is capable to real expansion or will impart a lot of energy, I have seen hits that would have been marginal with my 22s be very impressive with 22 mag holllowpoints, the 204 ruger, etc. . I have also killed many a rabbit with my keith 240 gr. lead cast in front of 8 gr. unique, and one shot instant kills were the norm due to the size and the dismemberment ensuing. I can see that a flat slug kills better then a pointy one at CB speeds and weight is not much of an issue as much as meplat would be. If the debate has centered around whether any 45 cal bullet would do, of course it would.. will some seem to do better.. I am sure they do.. if I was going for a plinking load I would just worry about how it shoots first, then I would like to see a dedicated plinker to be either a flat nose or a wad cutter, if the hollow base allows for more bearing surface in the barrel I can see liking that for stability and accuracy... I think that we all like to kill little things with the big guns and big things with the little guns in addition to what their most common usages are.. I do not think you guys are really on different pages.. just not speaking quite the same language or something. lol..
I love this stuff and will read and or comment or question on any nuance extensively, cause I like it.. it may be a silly exercise but I have wasted time in worse ways, i guarantee that.. lol
it is interesting the ideas and different shapes and weights available for plinking loads etc. and especially when one shares they have used them and how they performed.. saves me a lot of time and money and ups my learning curve..
what I want to know is if there is a best design for a ( two-fer ) on small pests and game.. two animals one shot ? ? blunt or pointed light or heavy ? I am thinking heavy and pointed would be the name of the multi kill single shot phenomenon..
what say you ?
lol
dk

[StrawHat]

...I am thinking heavy and pointed would be the name of the multi kill single shot phenomenon..
what say you ?...dk

I believe the flat nosed bullet penetrates in a straighter line from what I have seen and used. Given that, a heavy, flat point, would be my choice.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I just load up a throat size round ball made with 40-1 and plow any critter that I have a mind to. Case full of 2F or enough Unique to get to 900 fps+ and it is done. Push the ball down into the case. A light roll crimp if you want. Before loading a smear of lube on the ball nose. They are very accurate out to 70 yards and anything under 200 pounds that gets smacked with one does not seem to wonder very long what it was. Shoot a groundhog in the shoulders with this and they donot crawl anywhere.
Not real high tech but it works.

[Larry Gibson]

I managed once to kill 2 deer with one shot (didn't see the deer standing about 20 feet behind the other one at all) using a 390 gr 457483 at 1800 fps cast of older WWs out of my Siamese Mauser. The bullet plowed straight through all 4 shoulders and heart/lungs. The deer dropped in their tracks. With a proper expanding bullet that may not have happened but it's hard to say.

In late April when the Sun warms up the fields ground squirrels (sometimes called gophers, picket pins, et.) will line up on their mounds shoulder to shoulder in line. I havebeen known to slip around to get a "multiple" shot on them. With a Hornady 55 gr SX out of the .223 at 3200 fps the 1st 2 or 3 squirrels (# depends on whether they are smaller young ones or fat and full of alfalfa mature ones) are exploded. The last one in line is knocked back by the exploding guts and debri and once it clears the cobwebs out between it's ears it sits there wondering what the heck happened:-) Same thing with the .22 Hornet using 40 - 45 gr Hornet bullets at 2600 -3000 fps.

With the 225415 in the 22 Hornet, 222 Rem and 223 Rem all at 2200+ fps I've never got more than 2 squirrels with such a shot. With the 225462 I've managed a several tripples. I have killed 4 squirrels in a row with one shot several times using a 311041 at 1850 fps or so out of several .30/.31 cal rifles. The 311041s smashed through all of them without slowing down much. Once I did manage a tripple with the 450-400-70 Siamese Mauser using the Lee C457-500-FN at 2050 fps one time. I actually missed all 3 squirrels with the bullet plowing through the dirt just under their feet. They were through about 2-3 feet into the air and came straight down quite dead. They all had blood coming out of their ears and noses. I've also pulled that shot off on several singles. I figure it was the concusion and compression that killed them. Sure surprised me and I guess it surprised them also;-)

The bullet shape that kills the best at 200 - around 1800 fps without expansion is the full WC. That is why we see many designs with very large meplats which are proven to be better killers. Given the same bullet weight/caliber and velocity the SWC kills better than a RN, the WFN kills better than the SWC and the WC kills better than all of them. Yes they all kill. It's just a matter of which kills better, i.e. quicker.

Larry Gibson

[Artful]

I actually missed all 3 squirrels with the bullet plowing through the dirt just under their feet. They were through about 2-3 feet into the air and came straight down quite dead. They all had blood coming out of their ears and noses. I've also pulled that shot off on several singles. I figure it was the concusion and compression that killed them. Sure surprised me and I guess it surprised them also;-)

Larry Gibson

Larry I used to use my Savage 99 in 358 wcf to "bark" the tree rats in Oregon - they would move around the tree in such a way as to be hidden from view for a clean shot but you knew where they where - this worked to protect them from 22LR but when I used a bigger gun you could aim so that you may not hit 'em but the movement of the bark disturbed by the larger cast bullet would stop their little hearts and they would fall out of the tree. I was taught it from someone who used to use his muzzle loader to do the same thing.