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swheeler
05-12-2005, 10:39 AM
I just picked up a Nagant revolver in 7.62x38R. Anybody loading and shooting one of these?
Scooter

crazy mark
05-12-2005, 10:50 PM
Yes. 2 of them, both 1944's, one an Izzy and one a Tula.. I use 32-20 brass and 313xxx bullets. I do have some russian brass that is boxer primed and I made a tool to get the proper crimp on the nose of the case.

swheeler
05-12-2005, 11:49 PM
Crazy Mark: tell me more, favorite loads? The one I bought has a triangle with an arrow in it(arsenal?)1945 ,reblued ,bright shiny bore, double action. The double action trigger pull is HEAVY, single is heavy but useable. What a strange looking firing pin, has an errection! I ordered 250 rds 7.62x38r brass from Starline(52.00) and Lee steel dies from Midway 20.00, the RCBS were a little steep at 135.00. Interesting little piece, the wife just loves the way it feels in her hand, can't wait to take it plinkin'. If you'd care to share some loads, I'm all ears! Thanks
Scooter

crazy mark
05-13-2005, 12:15 AM
I picked up a used set of RCBS dies for $25 and also have the Lee dies.
I mainly use Unique for my loads. I use from 2.2 to 3.5 gr depending on my bullet weights. I use 313492, 313445, 313631, 313249 and 313226 cast bullets. I size my bullets to .310-.311. I have also used red dot, bullseye and win231 with mixed success. I have done the most work with Unique however. Your gun is an IZHEVSK. The Tula is a star. The double action trigger pullo varies from gun to gun. If you use the 7.62 brass ans plan on having it look original you will need to make a piece for the lee set to make that special crimp on the end of the case.

9.3X62AL
05-13-2005, 01:53 AM
The Nagant revolver is one of only two Russo-Soviet service sidearms I don't have an example of, the other being the PSM 5.45mm. Mark--does the cartridge REQUIRE that screwy crimp for decent accuracy? These little wheelers have intrigued me, but the loading regimen was a little vague and I did NOT want to thin down case heads on 32-20's. A little info on the crimp needs and the Starline brass might push me over the edge.

oksmle
05-13-2005, 02:34 AM
Deputy Al .... I have two of these. Four other club members also shoot them. Then the Lawton, OK gun club has several shooters using them. We actually attempted using them in our Military Revolver competition & were not very competitive to say the least. So we set up a special Nagant match & because of the terrible trigger pulls allow two hand holds at 25 yards. (Sundog, if you see this, you'd better tell your people to get with the program). Everyone uses fireformed .32-20 cases. Both of mine required thinning the front side of the case rim just a tad & decreasing the rim diameter just a bit. I accomplished this in my wood lathe with a common Jacobs chuck installed in the headstock & used a mill file. After you get used to the feel it takes less than a minute per case. Be certain you don't decrease the diameter to the point the case will no longer fit in the .32-20 case holder. All the other shooters use the .32-20 cases "as is." I've stayed with the Lyman #314294 cast in WW at about 90 grains, Remingtom small pistol primers & 3.0 to 3.7 grains of Unique. The bullet is crimped in the crimping groove & standard .32-20 dies are used.
oksmle

sundog
05-13-2005, 09:20 AM
"Sundog, if you see this, you'd better tell your people to get with the program"

Oksmle, roger, out. sundog

swheeler
05-13-2005, 10:17 AM
CM &OKS; thanks for the info, appreciated.
Scooter

9.3X62AL
05-13-2005, 10:29 AM
Ditto to SWheeler's text.

swheeler
05-13-2005, 12:50 PM
Deputy Al; you need to get one of these, round out you're arsenal! Settin' here watching the rain come down, wishing I had ammo to go play with. I've seen a couple posters on other boards shooting 32 H&R mag ammo out of their guns, just may run up and get a box to try. None of them said anything about missing fingers or being blinded in an eye. I'm kind of surprised the top burrito doesn't have one, a real mil-surp nut for sure, that RT.
Scooter

swheeler
05-13-2005, 05:28 PM
Went up and bought a box of 20 Federal Classic 32 mag=95 gr swc lead. The casings were a sloppy fit in the cylinder, after firing they were bulged pretty bad, but fell right out- accuracy was dismal at best. Just cleaned it, no lead, while I had it stripped for cleaning I slugged the muzzle end of the barrel-.3105 approx. throats on the cylinder .333-.334. I suspect accuracy would be better with ammo designed for this setup- casemouth to help align the bullet with the bore on firing.Just placed my order for the Lee .311-100-2r mold. Scooter

crazy mark
05-13-2005, 06:33 PM
The Nagant revolver is one of only two Russo-Soviet service sidearms I don't have an example of, the other being the PSM 5.45mm. Mark--does the cartridge REQUIRE that screwy crimp for decent accuracy? These little wheelers have intrigued me, but the loading regimen was a little vague and I did NOT want to thin down case heads on 32-20's. A little info on the crimp needs and the Starline brass might push me over the edge.
Deputy Al, Nope you don't need to do the funny crimp. You do have to remember to seat the bullet deep enough however as these are "gas seal" with the original ammo. They can be silenced really easily for a peestool. I haven't had to do anything with my 32-20 brass and both mine like to split 32 long cases. I shipped a couple boxes of 32 long to Beagle because I didn't like the cases splitting and brass is now easy to get. Decent accuracy is 3-4" groups at 25 yds. I haven't spent lots of time trying to improve accuracy. I spend most of my time with them checking load functions. Mark

9.3X62AL
05-13-2005, 11:58 PM
It sounds like the case mouth helps form the chamber throat--correct? And the cylinder goes forward and contacts the forcing cone end of the barrel. I think I get it.

Buckshot is a milsurp enthusiast, but mostly rifles. He's making a S&W Victory 38 S&W lend-lease comeback wheeler do the right things, though.

This Nagant sounds like fun.

Scrounger
05-14-2005, 01:08 AM
It sounds like the case mouth helps form the chamber throat--correct? And the cylinder goes forward and contacts the forcing cone end of the barrel. I think I get it.

Buckshot is a milsurp enthusiast, but mostly rifles. He's making a S&W Victory 38 S&W lend-lease comeback wheeler do the right things, though.

This Nagant sounds like fun.

There is an excellent Nagent in the Gunshop here, $140, I think. And Nagents are C & R...

9.3X62AL
05-14-2005, 11:44 AM
Art--

PM sent your way, sir.

NVcurmudgeon
05-24-2005, 05:33 PM
My Nagant arrived today on the Fedex gunnut's gratification unit. It appears to have been made at Tula in 1937, (just in time for the big Red Army purge) and condition is excelllent. It looks like new, but I think it is rearsenaled as the finish is 100%, with slight rounding of the lands, but still a VG to excellent bore. The bore slugged .314", with cylinder mouths around .335." You can't call them throats with that odd gas-seal arrangement. Single action trigger is creepless, but about ten lbs. Double action pull is humongous. This thing is so cool, it defines the word "funky." There is the fragile-appearing primitive ejector rod, the pebble-grained RUBBER holster lined with what appears to be what was called oil cloth back in the pre-plastic age, apparently THREE piece grips of a shape very close to the broomhandle Mauser, and best of all it is a SEVEN shooter, which would have delighted Red Skelton's "Deadeye" character. Appearance seems to have been influenced by Belgian pinfires, or maybe the English Adams revolvers. Everybody need one of these.

Buckshot
05-26-2005, 01:27 AM
...............The new Graf's catalog shows 7.62 Nagant ammo in 25 round boxes with 90gr slugs. Don't know if this is news or not, but there it is.

.............Buckshot

TCLouis
05-26-2005, 08:44 PM
Buckshot

Does the Graf ad say whether it is boxer Primed or not?

Buckshot
05-27-2005, 12:49 AM
Buckshot

Does the Graf ad say whether it is boxer Primed or not?

Doesn't say but it's Hornady so I'd suspect it's boxer. It says, 7.62 Nagant 90gr HP/XTP (25 rounds) $13.49. Since it's from the dealer catalog I suppose that's the dealer price.

...............Buckshot

9.3X62AL
05-27-2005, 10:20 AM
The website shows a price of $16.99/25.

After I clear some space on the loading bench, this caliber is going to get some R&D undertaken. Right now, the results of several weeks of Burrito Matches, Modoc rat zapping, and NCBS 2005 has me swimming in projects. Add in the vegetable garden, and I'm keeping pretty busy.

My question--how the hell did this stuff ever get done while I was still working?

swheeler
05-27-2005, 10:48 AM
NV Curm:seems to be large variations in bore dia. on these-makes one wonder how well they could shoot .308" bullets? Got out late yesterday evening to try some more loads, light was failing so chrono wasn't reading too good. 4 grs WSF showed promise with a low velocity of 692 fps, 3.1 grs Herco did about the same accuracy with unknown velocity. These loads were shot in the same brass as the first, 50 rds of brass will be used in developing loads, and to see how many firings the brass will take(interested in how long it will take for the necks to split where the crimp is applied) The lighter loads drop from the cylinder without the use of the ejecter rod, 4 grs of Herco needed a little nudge.
Scooter

9.3X62AL
05-27-2005, 11:21 AM
Kind of brainstorming here......to repeat a bit, I'm not certain the crimp plays a huge role in establishing the gas seal per se. The Starline text where they describe their rationale for cutting back case length to 1.460" from 1.520" occurs to me as a trade-off of gas sealing ability for functional reliability, and a good one. If the case mouth ends are curling back around the cylinder face and causing difficult extraction, there is already at least some loss of propellant force through the barrel/cylinder gap going on.

Now, if the brass case has relief cut into the forcing cone to accomodate the deeply crimped end of the case mouth extended under pressure well past the barrel/cylinder junction, the brass could conceivably support and seal the junction. The Soviet-era ammo that came with the revolver has a pronounced taper crimp to prevent interference of the case mouth with barrel/cylinder mating. I suspect the deep double-radius crimp on some makes of ammunition serves the same purpose. My point is that either regimen will cause short case life, and I think Starline is on the right path by running the case mouth only to the length of the supported portion of the cylinder wall. In this way, a small bit of pressure may escape, but case life could be drastically extended.

If ever a case could be made for using the Hornady 32 caliber hollow-based wadcutters, this caliber provides the justification.

NVcurmudgeon
05-27-2005, 11:21 AM
Allen, Your "how the Hell did alll this stuff ever get done while I was still working?" question about retirement is perfectly normal. Normal, that is, for busy, interested people. Such retirees are extremely unlikely to become couch potatoes and croak within six months of retirement. After six years out of harness, I am still amazed that I managed to squeeze work into my busy schedule. (Here comes the wild swerve back onto topic.) I have Lee dies and mould coming from Graf's, and will get brass direct from Starline. Neither of these companies charges for shipping, and Graf's gives dealer prices to C&R licensees. Yahoo! (enthusiasm, not the ISP.)

swheeler
05-27-2005, 02:42 PM
AL: I figured the crimp would hold the bullet in place, not in normal fashion, but over the top of the bullet. The dies use a "type M expander" it expands the resized case from .292 up to .311 (inside approx)and I can push a boolit into the case, as for down as it is expanded with my thumb, without the crimp over the top of the ogive the bullet could move forward, locking up the cylinder. I read the info that came with the brass from Starline, I took it to mean they still used the crimp, just shortened it to prevent flaring at the mouth producing hard extraction and short usable case life.(by shortening it enough to keep it inside and supported by the cyl) Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong tho!
Scooter

NVcurmudgeon
05-27-2005, 05:04 PM
Scooter and Alllen, Just slugged one cylinder throat this AM. The largest diameter of the oval is .3366", call it .337" to be safe. Less .314" groove leaves .023" for brass. If wall thickness is .0115" or less, (no brass here yet) and with a .314" expander, good boolit fit is barely possible. More likely, it's going to be rattleski, wobblevich time!

45nut
05-27-2005, 08:46 PM
Right now, the results of several weeks of Burrito Matches, Modoc rat zapping, and NCBS 2005 has me swimming in projects. Add in the vegetable garden, and I'm keeping pretty busy.

My question--how the hell did this stuff ever get done while I was still working?
Hey AL,,,would one of those projects be one of the 45nut portable rests you were impressed with?
I can get you the UPC number off the main part if you are still interested.
Ken

Buckshot
05-28-2005, 06:05 AM
The website shows a price of $16.99/25.

After I clear some space on the loading bench, this caliber is going to get some R&D undertaken. Right now, the results of several weeks of Burrito Matches, Modoc rat zapping, and NCBS 2005 has me swimming in projects. Add in the vegetable garden, and I'm keeping pretty busy.

My question--how the hell did this stuff ever get done while I was still working?

...........I'm still wanting to know how those pure lead swaged WC and HBWC's do out of your Webley. You're supposed to finish one project before starting another. This falls under the "Do as I say, and not as I do" type suggestion (as I look around the garage). I AM curious though :-)

...............Buckshot

9.3X62AL
05-28-2005, 01:56 PM
Buckshot--

The reloading is a "compound project" as is the Webley/38 S&W ammo assembly bit. First I need to create some space on the bench, then I can pull the Webley apart and diagnose its advancing hand reach problem--which is likely a cylinder retaining collar issue. Once that gets done, the swaged boolits residing atop my dresser in the bedroom (Marie--WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE GREASY THINGS IN THE ZIPLOCK BAG?!) will be fitted and fired in the DAO Mid-Sized Monster.

As you can see, there is more than one prompting element to the 38 S&W project--I sincerely hope you are more accepting of the explanantion for its delay in completion than are parties in other quarters.

All this off-topic diatribe is advanced to show why little more than brain-storming has occurred with the new to me Nagant. The measurements given by Curmudgeon and others are encouraging, and I have a wide array of dies and die parts in the 30/31/32 rifle and pistol calibers that can likely create or modify brass as needed to fit this strange little beast.

swheeler
05-29-2005, 01:49 PM
100 gr cast .312" in 7.62 nagant
3.3 gr Herco-776
4.0 gr Herco-972
4.0 gr Win WSF-693
4.3 GR Win WSF-888
4.6 gr Win WSF-967

Lost first casing to lengthwise split down on body(neck area unaffected) third loading of 4.6 WSF(warm)

9.3X62AL
05-29-2005, 09:15 PM
If the brass is initially resized to .292" ID and expanded back to .311" ID, it is being worked too much methinks. That might explain the sidewall split. Those 900 FPS+ velocities are right respectable, though. If such performance comes with reasonable accuracy, this will be a right useful sidearm.

swheeler
05-30-2005, 11:36 AM
Looks like taking the expander out and turning it down a bit may be in order, but I feel a better fix would be to send the sizer die back to Lee(with a couple fired cases) AND LET THEM OPEN IT UP SO IT DOESN'T OVERSIZE THE BRASS TOO MUCH.

swheeler
05-30-2005, 12:01 PM
Or..... partial FL resize the brass, this may require decapping in a seperate step, only time will tell. The way the dies work now the loaded round looks like a chicken with a rock stuck in it's throat!AL and Bill still waiting to here some results!!!!!!
Scooter

9.3X62AL
05-30-2005, 12:22 PM
I hear ya, Scooter. Lemme finish up the yard and garden crapola, and get some boolits and books mailed out--and I'll give the Nagant the once-over.

After all the rain this winter, you can actually WATCH the weeds growing in my back yard--probably an inch per hour.

9.3X62AL
05-31-2005, 12:02 AM
OK--got John H's 243 boolits all ready to go, and Eric's book(s) ready to send, and the hyperactive weeds in the back yard largely at bay.

The throats on my Nagant run ~.335" or so, and the base end about .357". This sounds pretty familiar--very close to 30 U.S. Carbine dimensions, and roughly the same taper per inch.

I de-boolited 3 Rem 32-20 WCF cartridges, and found the base diameter to be pretty close at the head--.355". The mouth end after extracting the boolit was about .330" OD. Looking pretty good so far.

The shoulder on the 32-20 case prevented full seating of the case into the Nagant chamber. I ran the cases through my 30 Carbine F/L sizer, and the cases slipped right into the charge holes very snugly, and there's about .312" clearance (ID) on the case mouth. The only bugbear would be the case length is about .15" short of reaching the forward edge of the cylinder's throat.

Correlating the groove diameter in the barrel to the boolit diameter in the case will await arrival of the Starline cases and

1) Their initial sizing in the 30 M1 Carbine sizer, which should be less stressful to the brass than the Lee sizer per S Wheeler's info--

2) Expansion using the 32-20 expander die to gauge OD vis-a-vis the revolver charge holes--

3) Cartridge OD after boolit seating of proper diameter boolit to fit groove diameter.

I may get lucky and have about .002" of expansion tolerance with the Starline cases and properly-sized boolits for the barrel. If the cartridges don't allow that expansion for safe boolit release, then inside reaming may be indicated.

I also think that 32-20 cases reformed in the 30 Carbine die would give serviceable results, but those short cases would do at least the same things that 38 Specials do in 357 Magnums--crud up the chambers where a case end should go. The revolver did function without balking with the Rem cases and rims in place.

This little roller is getting pretty interesting.

floodgate
05-31-2005, 12:59 PM
Al:

Ah, yessss... the old "No-Gong" revolavers. We got a couple back around 1970, a SA Officer's model and one of the DA Trooper's. SA trigger pulls were "OK" and "so-so", respectively; the DA pull was horrible, verging on impossible. No brass available anywhere, the nearest looked like .223 military, of which we had heaps from the Base range, so I made up a die to swage the body and web area down to .348"-.350"and opened up the necks to .300" +/-. Loaded with Hornady HJ "plinkers" and taper-crimped, they would go into the cylinder and, when cocked, would move forward with the cylinder into the sealing seat in the forcing cone. Here (I HOPE) is a shot of a loaded round, and a sectioned case before loading. http://photos.gunloads.com/images/floodgate/p5310002.jpg..Made up a couple of dozen and fired them off; in the DA, the cylinder was slightly out-of-time, and the cases ended up with a "jog" at the mouth that made them really tough to eject. Gave one to Big Al the Armorer; he adapted the idea to a S&W M53 rebored to .256 Winchester, with an extension on the hand to turn the recoil plate forward on a quick thread to shove the cylinder hard against the barrel tenon, in an effort to get a good dseal and stop the erosion that "ate" the back end of the barrel. Didn't work - he later checked with S&W (for whom he had done development work in the past), and they told him they'd tried the same thing; high-speed photography showed that the frame would stretch during firing and just open up the gap again. The 1895 pistol was modified to Russian specs from a design the Belgian Nagant firm (with whom the Russians had worked on the 1891 rifle) had marketed - without the moving cylinder seal - had been marketing around Europe. All in all, an interesting concept, overcomplicated mechanism, and a pretty poor weapon overall. floodgate

9.3X62AL
06-01-2005, 12:47 AM
Yeah, the cylinder-seal bit is a solution in search of a problem to correspond to, for sure. I have an odds-and-ends order for Midway, and Nagant brass will be a part of it. Between the 30 Carbine and 32-20 die sets, I think usable ammo will result.

swheeler
06-01-2005, 11:07 PM
Just a little more data, may help someone find a good place to start. I will be the first to tell you I am no "pistoleero" and will make no claims to accuraccy potential- all shooting was done informally offhand at 25 yds- groups ran 4-8 inches. It was raining hard and overcast so I encountered quite a few chrono errors(some strings only consist of 4-5 readings. Take it at face value!

100 gr Lee 8ww-2lino
AA#2(lot 1470_3)
2.5 gr 507fps-es67
2.8 gr 823fps-es11
3.0 gr 832fps-es46

3.0 gr 618fps es 37?????????????? Cast of pure lead(seems slow-will re-shoot later)

Herco
3.5 gr-815fps-es29
Scooter

swheeler
06-02-2005, 05:01 PM
JUst worked over the Lee dies, now they don't work the brass so much. Honed .009 out of the inside of the sizer die, and polished the feed marks off the expander(I know-now you got waves inside the sizer- we'll see) sized brass is now .301-2 inside(was.292-3) expands to .308(was .312) this gives me probably a little too much grip on the .312 boolit-.004. The expander was so rough that it looked to be made of brass, I can actually pull the handle back up on the press with one hand. You never know what kind of trouble you can getr into on a rainy day! If it works I'll have to back-charge Lee.

NVcurmudgeon
06-02-2005, 06:30 PM
Santa's Brown Sled just dropped off my 7.62 Nagant dies and mould. The sizer is marked 7.62 nagant, the expander not marked at all, (expected that)
and the seater is marked .32/20. Is this crrect or a picking error? I have seen wrong dies in a Lee box before.

StarMetal
06-02-2005, 07:33 PM
Bill

I'll bet it's correct because my 7.62 Tokarev dies have a 7.62 Tokarev sizer die, and a 30 Mauser expander and seater. These mix and match these between the 7.62 Tokarev, 30 Mauser, and 30 Luger. I'll bet they do the same with your dies except for other rounds like the 32-20 you mentioned.

Joe

swheeler
06-02-2005, 09:17 PM
Bill- they're correct. You'll have to invert the seater stem. I hope they are a little larger than the set I got!

9.3X62AL
06-07-2005, 10:18 AM
I'm waiting on delivery of some Starline 7.62 x 38R brass to commence work with this little oddball. The goal will be usable, renewable ammunition first, and accuracy sufficient for small game and varmints to whatever distance boolits print "minute of jackrabbit" secondarily. Ballistics look like they'll be at a midpoint between 32 S&W Long and 32-20 WCF, which would be VERY usable in the game fields if they'll print closely. The revolver's fixed sights aren't the best I've used on a mid-caliber revolver, but are a LOT better than those on a 1903 S&W I once had.

NVcurmudgeon
06-07-2005, 11:36 AM
My Starline Nagant brass arrived yesterday. They sure look like rimmed, elongated .30 Carbine cases (maybe close to .32 WSL?) The Belgain pinfire look of the revolver will keep me from trying to break the sound barrier. .32 S&W Long loads should be a good starting point, and as soon as I find a recipe that shoots to the sights I'll be satisfied. Looks like the new Lee mould will be gainfully employed tonight. It's the same one Scooter has and might be able to double for the CZ 7.62 x 25.

NVcurmudgeon
06-09-2005, 01:51 AM
I put together my first 21 cartirdges of 7.62 Nagant tonight. Thanks to scooter and Deputy Al for their ideas. Load is 3.4 gr. WW 231 and the Lee 100-2R boolit. It is certainly weird to load boolits INSIDE the case, THROW boolits into the case, and to full-size AFTER loading! Now that it's done, I can see why. The post loading sizing functions like sort of a crimp to keep the boolit in place. sizing was interesting, creaking all the way, but coming free at the first hint of drawing the case out of the die. Laying a straightedge alongside the case showed why, this case has a straight taper from front of rim to mouth. My boolits cast .312" to .313", I sized them nominal .314" (groove dia.) The loaded rounds chambered very easily and the case mouth was a wobbling good fit in the chamber. I'm not too worried about boolit release. Looking forward to Friday at the range, weather permitting.

9.3X62AL
06-09-2005, 11:22 AM
Bill et al--

I noticed the straight taper on the factory loads that came with the revolver. Its dimensions are almost exactly the same as that of the 30 U.S. Carbine, same included angle too.

I didn't order the Lee die set, and will try the 30 Carbine sizer die for initial dimensioning--followed by the 32-20 expander die to set a flare for bullet seating. I will essentially be treating the caliber like an elongated 32-20 wadcutter load seated deeply to the point of seating boolits--then will try a carbide sizer die for the 32 ACP to snug down the case mouth to the point of the boolit shoulder for a "crimp". Sort of a half-assed in-breeding of revolver and auto-pistol loading, with The Taper Crimp From Hell completing the cycle. I might be able to do this on the P-W semi-progressive, if all goes well.

Another thought was to seat Hornady HBWC's to flush depth and just set a light roll crimp like a NORMAL wadcutter load. That may get a try later on--right now, I think the Lee 100 RN and RCBS 98 SWC will get first show.

NVcurmudgeon
06-09-2005, 04:12 PM
Allen, Very perceptive of you to analyze a die set that you have never seen! My Lee "official" 7.62 Nagant die set has a sizer marked 7.62 NR, and the expander and seater are marked .32/20. As Scooter (I think) said, Lee mixes and matches among the .30 cal./7.62 pistol cartridges. My .30 Tok Lee die set has a 7.62 TOK sizer, .30 MAU/LU expander, and for variety, a .30 LGR/MSR seater.

9.3X62AL
06-10-2005, 10:30 AM
The Nagant brass arrived yesterday while I was bass fishing. They appear on eyeball to be straight-walled--no taper. Gotta head for the doctor's office, maybe I can mess about with the revolver and brass later today.

NVcurmudgeon
06-10-2005, 05:52 PM
Wait'll you run them through a FL die after loading, you'll see an unbelievable amount of body taper!

9.3X62AL
06-10-2005, 08:00 PM
I'm going about this a little more conventionally, due to having a number of dies and die parts available that others might lack--and wanting to load these critters on my P-W semi-progressive machine. Report to follow.

9.3X62AL
06-13-2005, 12:40 AM
I used the 30 Carbine sizer, followed by the Lyman Multi-Expander Die with short drop tube and 32 caliber M-style fitting, then seated boolits (100 grain Lee RN sized @ .311") atop the 3.5 grains of WW-231 dispensed through the Lyman die--this done in the 32-20 seater die. This was accomplished on the P-W semi-progressive.

Crimp needed another die step. The 32-20 seater would not release the seater plug if crimping was tried as a part of bullet seating, so crimping was done using the old-fashioned taper crimp method--using the sizing die reset a bit higher. I also tried the 32 ACP and 32 S&W Long sizer die, but the cartridge length was too long to allow any die thread engagement without squeezing the boolit as seated. I only wanted a snug-down to the boolit shoulder.

I believe this will work. Boolits don't push or pull after seating, and the cartridges are a snug fit in the charge holes. Time for a test-drive!

swheeler
06-13-2005, 01:44 AM
NVC & DA; Keep us posted on results! I thought I was getting a handle on accuracy until I did some 100 yd plinking. Bill your case won't take a bullet back after firing(mine won't) so next time around you'll have to expand. I've been sizing after loading, use the .135 spacer for the 38/357 dies, under the sizer die- minus decapper, can't tell any difference in accuracy. I believe the most consistently accurate loads ,so FAR, are the ones loaded with crimp formed on the end? Only time will tell. I was shooting 4-5 in at 25 yds consistently,very good for ME, I walked out and set a small box (the one the brass came in)on the ground infront of the 100 yd backstop, couple would come real close, then flyer 30FEET left, couple close, then flyer 20 feet high. No I don't drink anymore!!!!!
LOL
Scooter

NVcurmudgeon
06-13-2005, 07:15 PM
Scooter, 4"-5" at 25 yd"? My first attempt today yielded groups of 24" at 15 yd. About three from each cylinderful printed sideways. The revolver points well and recoil is very mild. As near as I can tell, these Improved cylinder patterns shoot to the sights. Load is 3.4 gr. 231/ Lee 100-2R. Trigger pull is at least ten lbs, but that's the least of my worries. Next trial will be with pure lead boolits, maybe it's not obturating? Thinking ahead to reloading the once-fired cases it looks like the RCBS 9mm sizer will be a good decapping die.

swheeler
06-14-2005, 06:47 PM
Bill; when you run the loaded round thru the sizer die I believe it is swaging your bullet down way under groove dia., and even pure lead may not upset enough, maybe just partial size them?My lee dies were quite a mis-matched set, the expander would be perfect for .314 boolits(expanded brass to.312) but the seater die would only let a .310" bullet pass thru, a little honing and polishing took care of most of the problems. The FL sizer die was MIN dimension- working the brass way too much- by the 4 th loading I had lost 21 of 50 brass! I think I have this taken care of now.I did try loading some without the LONG crimp on the end, they were not accurate! Try conventional loading method for about 14 rounds, I think you will see an improvement. In a couple days I will have some time to investigate this cartridge further. Good luck!
Scooter

swheeler
06-14-2005, 06:49 PM
Deputy Al, anything?

9.3X62AL
06-15-2005, 10:38 AM
Not yet, sir. I'm involved in some administrative stuff at work to complete the retirement process, and not able to get to the range right now.

Just brainstorming here......I think you might be right about a swage-down of the boolits in Curmudgeon's case. This was my reason for avoiding the Lee die set and trying to adapt existing dies to the Nagant cases--I wasn't just being reflexively cheap.

My intent is also to check inside diameter of fired cases and see how fat a boolit can be fired safely in the revolver--using a boolit sized I/D minus .002". I may also scrounge up some of the Hornady HBWC's and use them flush-seated with light roll crimp.

BTW--the Nagant cartridges require 357 Magnum-sized cartridge boxes, FWIW.

NVcurmudgeon
06-15-2005, 11:12 AM
I have put together two cylinderfuls of Nagant rounds for my next experiment. These have unsized new cases with the only die operation being sizing about 1/4" of the case after loading, to preclude my pre-ruining the boolits. If this works, expanding FIRED cases will be the next hurdle. This may be a situation similar to the famous Norma 6.5 Jap. The handloader may be thwarted at the outset by loading die and/or case manufacturers who mistranslated lines, versts or arshins, or who took their "standard" dimensions from an atypical specimen made on the Commissar's surprise inspection day. ANYBODY can load .38 Specials, only the truly dedicated, or demented, are worthy of the Nagant challenge.

9.3X62AL
06-15-2005, 07:02 PM
I think demented--or certainly "severely bent"--is a more likely circumstance than "dedicated".

swheeler
06-16-2005, 12:28 AM
I hear ya COMRADES!

9.3X62AL
06-16-2005, 05:10 PM
On the Leverguns thread, I'm getting some capitalistic consciousness raising about reloading the 25 ACP. AS IF the 7.62 Nagant wasn't OUT THERE enough.......sheesh! I should also clarify that my Nagant is pre-Soviet.....1916.

swheeler
06-20-2005, 12:43 AM
One good, several not so good? The brass grows on one side between firings.

NVcurmudgeon
06-20-2005, 02:21 AM
Scooter, Pretty good looking targets, certainly minute of capitalist. I'm running Nagant trial Mark II tomorrow.

swheeler
06-20-2005, 11:21 AM
Bill;on the 6" group notice the circled 2 shots, one of them went thru the target sideways, one went way high- this ammo was loaded with a profile crimp. That 3 and a quarter inch is the best so far, thats approximately 800 rounds tested- three powders- the faster of the three seems to provide the best accuracy, with the 32-20 seater turned way down to let the ammo stop itself(if you go any further it colapses the case- this produces a crimp approx .065" long with inside dia under .300- these seem to be the most accurate? I don't have any factory ammo to compare to, would be a great help. I am now wondering about the effects of seating the ROUND NOSE boolit with a FLAT bottom seater stem- crooked seating of boolit- wild flyers? I also tried loading to a longer overall length, approx 1.510, lost 30-40 fps but still had flyers. As soon as UPS delivers, I will be taking a deputy Al approach, ordered 400 Horn-32 cal(.314) 90 gr hbwc. If all else fails, I got about 50# of 9 shot- guess it will become my snake load gun!~ha ha
Scooter

9.3X62AL
06-20-2005, 02:39 PM
Tomorrow will be Nagant Test Drive And Consciousness-Raising Day after getting my butt whupped during the Burrito Shoot. I might really throw caution to the winds and drag out the 25-20 for even more masochistic disappointment.

My load has the Lee 100 RN seated even with the case mouth and lightly taper-crimped with the 30 Carbine die, with 3.5 grains of WW-231. If these go sideways, then we'll get a consensus of what NOT to do. I may recruit Buckshot and Ray the Rangemaster to let drive with this Russkikh Roller, to remove whatever "Deputy Al Malo Mojo" might exist from the equation. With the things going on with the 25-20, I strongly suspect such influences are afoot--and I have no clue what sacrifice or incantation is required to dispell the spell.

swheeler
06-20-2005, 05:36 PM
Al; be interesting to see how one shoots with the surp ammo you bought with the gun. LOL!
Scooter

9.3X62AL
06-21-2005, 01:12 AM
At some point, I might try that surp ammo out. For now, I'll just muddle along with conventional components and see if I can make mine act right.

9.3X62AL
06-21-2005, 09:14 PM
I gave the loads a test drive on paper at 25 yards today. Call it 6" wide x 8" tall group about 12" high and 6" left of aimpoint--but it was a group all right, a 20-shot composite. No sideways impacts, and it was "minute of capitalist" at 25 yards. That trigger is AWFUL, even in single action. Combined with the skinny little grip, it made shooting more than slightly challenging. I shot it using my usual "rest the wrists on the bags" method--I believe some benefit could be gained by resting the BARREL on the bags.

Buckshot and Glen gave the little hummer a test drive, too--and shared my view that while robust and stout, it was far from refined. I still have ~40 rounds left, and now that I have some fired cases I can see about the clearance question and maybe some fatter boolits. Zero leading @ .311", so that's not a concern. The slight taper crimp provided by the 30 Carbine sizer adjusted upward held boolits in place during recoil, too. Buckshot opined that Lee Soup Cans need a test drive in this beast. Somewhere out there is a rifle or revolver that won't digest the Soup Can--Buckshot has made it his life's work to find it.

All in all, I'm pretty satisfied with the results. This wheeler is so crude and clunky, it's almost charming. Sorta like my Broomhandle in some respects--clunky, inaccurate, but possessing a charm all its own that compensates for its grouping shortfalls.

swheeler
06-22-2005, 12:26 AM
AL; off to a good start, sounds like a little left drift on the front sight in order. Did you happen to check speed? Couple more times out and you'll be ready to take on Buckeroo and his 38!!!!!!!!!! You got to like a challenge to shoot one of these critters.I think Bill has his shootin' one holers, just tryin' to hustle someone!
Scooter

9.3X62AL
06-22-2005, 10:28 AM
Scooter et al--

I'm going to leave the sights as is until I get done trying boolits out. This strange little roller might find something it likes real well, and then I'll do sledgehammer surgery on the sighting system. Both the Tokarev and the Makarov shoot high as well, and I believe this is in keeping with Russian doctrine regarding pistol sight regulation. If a more accurate load comes along, we'll deal with windage after a few more test drives.

Examination of fired casings show that a .308" j-word bullet is a slip-fit into the case mouth, but a .310" j-word for the 32 ACP is a "no-go". I did not "bell" the case mouths to eliminate any possible "curl-in" of the case mouth edge, and did not use any force other than gravity to try the bullets.

If the flaring shows no variance in case mouth interior dimensions, I may neck-ream 20 of these fired cases with the 30 caliber Forster reamer and see if that improves grouping very much. I may also try some pure-lead Lee 100 RN's with the same 3.5 x 231 in unreamed fired/recycled cases to see what difference that might make. There is presently a Ruger-like undersized throat situation in this revolver with the existing cases and boolits that fit the groove diameter properly. There was no barrel leading detected......but it still ain't right.

azrednek
06-23-2005, 12:20 AM
I've had one for apx 30 years, never reloaded for it but have put a few hundred 32S&W shorts through it. It was a good tin can killer out to about 20 yards any further they got away unscathed. Mine looks bad and has a few pits in the bore, it came home with my x-wife's uncle after WW2. He claimed it was found shortly after the war in a German officer's POW camp along with some other souvenirs that came back from the eastern front. The 5rds of original ammo he gave me with it were all duds.

TCLouis
06-23-2005, 09:56 PM
If ya keep it up I may have to dig mine out and shoot it. I just bought it because it is tied with two others as the UGLIEST handgun EVER manufactured.

9.3X62AL
06-24-2005, 02:12 PM
Louis--

No denying that--they are so ugly, you almost feel sorry for them--so ugly, they transcend ugliness and advance to coolness.

Scrounger
06-24-2005, 02:22 PM
Louis--

No denying that--they are so ugly, you almost feel sorry for them--so ugly, they transcend ugliness and advance to coolness.

To only a few, thank God. Most of us have the good taste to abhor them.

swheeler
06-27-2005, 01:19 PM
A thing of beauty, a true masterpiece, I'm surprised it hasn't been copied by one of the American gun makers!!!!!

9.3X62AL
06-27-2005, 01:47 PM
I think a second shooting series is called for with this critter after the Burrito Shoot tomorrow. A telephone conference a few minutes ago with the Burrito Shoot Project Manager (Buckshot) indicates that he will be dragging along at least one "revolter" of the 45 caliber persuasion to test drive with pure lead boolits, so the Webley 38 S&W and the Nagant will tag along so Rick's Ruger won't feel so lonesome.

swheeler
06-27-2005, 02:20 PM
Al:Wife and I tried horn 90gr HBWC yesterday, zips along at just under 1100 FPS. Connie shot 51/2", 8" for me, those decade younger eyes. We got to shoot 5cyl full each before getting rained out, rested. No boolits cutting target sideways, not sure there were EVER any-maybe just a shot up backerboard? We tried pure lead 100 Lee (.311) alloyed 100gr Lee (.312+) 90gr Horn (pure lead?.314) they slipped right in. The most accurate for both of us was the .312 Lee, 3" for Connie, 6" for me. That's dang-nert a thousand rounds thru it, seems to get better the more we shoot.(maybe "breaking in" the rearsenal?)
Scooter

9.3X62AL
06-28-2005, 12:20 AM
I think a little trigger re-familiarization with the Nagant is called for EVERY time you try it out. I don't see this piece as a target arm by any stretch of imagination--it might do for jackrabbits to 35-40 yards, provided the jack was having a real poor run of luck on a given day. Its accuracy is on par with the Broomhandle Mauser, and I have cartwheeled several jacks with that old warhorse--much to the surprise of all involved parties. So, it IS possible to do--just rather dicey.

9.3X62AL
07-23-2005, 06:53 PM
Well, I emptied out the balance of the initial loaded ammo for the Nagant at Angeles yesterday. There is a bank of steel reaction targets at 35 yards, and they were the victims of the Nagant's poetic projections.

I chose a steel square about 14" x 14" at that distance, suspended by a chain about 3' off the ground on a chain of about the same length. Lots of elevation adjustment, in other words--and a "stadia line" to help. All rounds from the first cylinder went over the top, sighted 6 o'clock, with windage about correct. OK.......give about one plate's worth of Ekaterinagrad Elevation down (as distinguished from "Kentucky windage"), and hits started happening on the steel. The hits were all over the plate, thanks in no small way to the ABHORRENT trigger and imprecise sight picture......but I connected about 45%-50% of the time. Camp Perry-capable.....it ain't. I can only wonder at the certain consternation of Russian servicemen being issued this cranky little oddball, after having used the very fine top-break S&W #3 variants in 44 Russian.

Anyway--I now have a good supply of fire-formed cases, which should yield some dimensional info about boolit diameter to match the case mouth/throat areas. Make these a close fit, and boost velocities a bit--maybe the thing will produce usable accuracy. Or not. I am left with the thought in the back of my mind that my efforts are about as hopeful as CPR at an autopsy, but the wheeler has my curiosity raised--weird as it is.