Help with building a .38 round

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I'm going to try to give all the info. I can. I am having trouble with a round I am trying to make up for my wife to shoot in a .38 revolver.
lead boolit is from a Mihec MP 359-125 mould sized to .359 in a Lee sizing die
powder: Bullseye 3 grains
OAL of round 1.495
Lead is a BN of 10
The OAL is determined by the top band of this boolit. There is no crimping groove. I am using a fairly heavy crimp. The boolit has 1 lube groove and I am using LLA with a 45-45-10 mix to tumble lube them.
The problem: I am having some leading in the cylinders right at the end of the casing and not towards the end of the cylinder. There is pretty heavy leading in the forcing cone. Next to nothing in the barrel. I figure that I need to bump up the powder or go with a softer alloy. Any help would be appreciated.

[HeavyMetal]

Couple things to look at here:

First the crimp: It's very likely that you aren't generating enough pressure ( or the alloy is to soft) to straighten out the crimp when the round is fired.

The result is the crimp shaves the boolit as it exits the case making it undersized and causing some flame cutting.

Even if the boolit had a crimp groove I don't think I'd do more than straighten out the case flare with that light a load!

10 BHN is O.K. for this velocity level but another thing you should check is the expander die diameter. If the die set is fairly new it is set up for jacketed and the plug will be to small for your .359 boolits. Again this can cause "shaving" as they enter the case during seating. I'd want an expander plug about .002 smaller than the diameter of the boolit I was loading any more and you got leading issues.

I'd check these two things first off and I'm suggesting them because your saying you actually have leading in the cylinder throat starting where the boolit exits the case.

I'm also thinking that one or both of the ideas I posted are your problem.

If for some reason the leading continues check the throat diameter of the cylinder. Boolits must be .001 to .002 over throat diameter, usually, to shoot well and not lead.

If the measurement's fall in line then the next move is to dump the LLA. I find the stuff distastefull to handle but I really doubt it's your problem which is why it's last on my list.

[462]

Have you measured a pulled bullet? Seating dies are dimensioned for jacketed, and often times they will swage down a fat boolit. It could be that your .359" boolit is getting squished to .357". I had to replace all my Lee dies due to it.

HeavyMetal's crimp mention makes sense, too.

[357shooter]

Two questions for you: Are you tumble lubing 2 times or just once? I've had better results lubing 2 tmes on my 38 special and 357 loads. The one exception is 148 wadcutters which a so lightly loaded that one coat works. This would probably casue leading further down the bore though. Still, it's worth a try if you have been lubing just once.

Sounds like the bullet is to small, unless you have undersize throats. Do you know the throat and bore sizes?

[runfiverun]

slower powder.
or harder alloy.
it's a balancing act, you just hit the base with max pressure right off the bat.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Ok. I just got back from my brothers farm after the NASCAR race. I used a very light crimp and bumped up the powder to 3.2 grains of Bullseye. The cylinder leading is gone!(thanks HeavyMetal). There is still some leading in the forcing cone. Just about the first 1/16 th of an inch. It just keeps accumulating there. No lead in the bore.
I have measured a pulled boolit. I took the sizing ring out of my Lee FCD a couple of months ago. The boolit is not swagged down, it used to do that though. I am tumble lubing twice and making sure that I get enough on. I would like to get another lube system but I just can't do that right now. (Christmas is coming) Maybe I'll get a setup after vacation. The throat sizes are .358 and I had used a .358 reamer on them per advice from another site. The throats were different sizes.
runfivefrun- I thought that if the forcing cone was leading, you needed to increase pressure or have a softer alloy?

[Edubya]

Charlie, Have you ever tried pan lubing? It's not all that difficult. I have two Star lubrisizers and a SAECO but I'll still do it when trying a new formula of lube or maybe on a new boolit. There are several videos on YouTube. I don't do it like any of them that I've seen. I use an old golf club shaft for a 'cookie cutter' and I fill it up with about fifty lubed boolits and turn it over to empty.
Also, you might consider getting a different mould. Most revolver moulds are going to have a crimp groove.

EW

[runfiverun]

pressure generally.
the forcing cone is another transition point.
you most likely have a tight spot, rough spot, something there.
no big deal, but a slower powder can generally ease the transition also.
or a harder alloy if it's skidding there.
you aren't that far off as evidenced by your change making a difference.
you didn't mention your alloy but a slight amount of tin could make the difference.

[357shooter]

Slower powder sounds like the easiest thing to try out. Just a slower, but still fast powder like HP38 may remove the last of the leading. It seems to work well with lead across a wide range of loads and also with soft to hard lead (BHN 11 to 21 all worked with no lead, didn't try anything softer). All with Alox.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

To explain a little further. The lead forms a perfect circle around the outside edge of the forcing cone. It does appear to be sprayed on. I will try the recommendations here and see what happens. I won't be able to test again for a few weeks. I tried to get it figured out in one weekend but it is kind of hard to load some up, go to the farm, find I have leading, go back to town to clean and load some more and repeat. I don't mind doing it but it takes up a lot of time. Patience. One of the virtues I have to work on. I can't seem to clean on site because it is really stuck on there. I bet it takes a good hour to clean the stuff off at home and that's an hour of really having at it. I figure that I should get every last speck of lead out or the following test won't be accurate.

[357shooter]

If you can get to the store, buy a Chore Boy copper cleaning pad, cut a piece off (1x1 square works) and wrap it around an old cleaning brush. I run it dry back and forth in the barrel, without really clearing it through the barrel. It might help clean it out quickly, or more quickly.

[9.3X62AL]

Charlie--

Another thought occurred to me in the context of your most recent leading issue at the forcing cone. 125 grain boolits are shorter than the "conventional" 158 grain 38 caliber castings. So short--that in some revolvers the boolit base clears the front edge of the cylinder face before the front end of the boolit is fully engraved in the barrel's rifling origin. This can enable leading of the barrel or forcing cone, but more critically can cause the boolit to enter the barrel at some angle other than straight-on. Could it be that "cocked" boolits are shaving lead at the edges of your revolver's forcing cone during their passage?

110 or 125 bullets--jacketed or cast--have never shot as well for me as have bullets/boolits weighing 140 grains or heavier in all of my 38/357 revolvers. I think this misalignment and canting of over-short projectiles is the reason for that.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I will find out sooner or later if this boolit will work as I want. My wife really likes shooting the lighter boolit. Using this one, she is really starting to like shooting.

[357shooter]

I've shot 38 special - 125 cast bullets with no leading, I'm sure many others have as well. A heavy crimp for no crimping groove worked well too, with LLA.

Since increasing the load some helped, is there room to increase it more? If a little increase helped, maybe another little increase with also help a little more.

Otherwise, try a powder slightly slower and see how it works. I've had good luck with HP38/W231 and lead. Unique is another even slower powder that works well with lead. These may help keep the load light too so your wife will still like it. Beefing it up to the max might kill her enthusiasm.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to try some increased load prgallo. I have some with 3.2 and 3.5 of BE. I did notice that even though I really bell out the casing, when I seat the boolit and then pull it, there is no reduction of size but a good portion of the LLA is rubbed off the driving bands. Maybe tomorrow night I can pop these new rounds off and see what happens.

[DLCTEX]

I am loading the Lee 125 gr. boolit for my wife in our 38 Charter revolver. 3 gr. BE sized 357 and lubed with 50/50. No leading and very accurate.

[mdi]

Check out the Boolit Lube! section for some variations on tumble lubing; 50/50 and 45/45/10, alox thinned, etc. There also is a lot of info on pan lubing there too, check the stickies. I've been casting and lubing my own for about 5 years and still don't have a lubersizer and have no plans to get one, 'cause there are still a whole bunch of T/L and pan lubing variations out there that I need to try...;)

[Rocky Raab]

First, a crisp salute for your time in 'Nam - from an AF FAC also there in '71.

The reduced crimp seems to have solved half the problem, if I read correctly. The forcing cone leading might well be cured by trying a slightly slower power. The HP38/W231 suggestion is good, and I'll add that I've had very good luck using American Select with cast bullets lately.

One of my favorite bullets in the .38 is the Lee 358-158-RF which I lube once with LLA and load unsized. Recoil is very mild.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Rocky. Quite a job you had there. I was just off of Cam Rahn Bay Air Force facility. I was Army but we flew RP2E Neptune aircraft. (WWII Navy anti-submarine aircraft). They were used radio interceptions. Our company was called Crazy Cats. We were in the ASA out of Ft. Devan Mass. Believe it or not, our mission is still classified. Strange huh? Wonder how much other stuff is classified. My brother was a grunt and was in Cambodia. He got to Nam about 3 months before me. I volunteered to go over there. Nobody ever said that I was Einstein.

[Rocky Raab]

My home unit was at Cam Rahn. The classified job I flew in Cambodia wasn't declassified until 1985. Lots of old elint jobs are still under wraps - because not a lot has changed in how they're done. Platforms and black boxes change, but not the methods.

The FAC job, however, is kaput. At least the way we did it, because it was becoming rapidly unsurvivable. There might still be theaters where a FAC at 1,500 feet and 150 knots could survive - but not many. By the time 'Nam was over, FACs were at 10,000 feet and could still get what we called a "Strella Suppository." I was one of the few that had one miss me.

Sorry for the thread hijack, guys. We old jungle rats kinda bond, ya know?

[Doby45]

Charlie I will be sending that care package out to you tomorrow. It will include:

Buckshot Kake Cutter (Awesome piece of equipment)
A stick of BAC and a stick of Carnuba Red (I melt them together and use as a pan lube)
10 or so of my lubed and sized 125gr Lee RNFP boolits (.358)
10 or so of my lubed and sized 120gr Lee TC boolits (.358)
10 or so of my lubed and sized 150gr Lyman 358477 SWC (.358)

I use 3.5gr of Bullseye in the 120 range boolits and 2.5 for the 150gr and they are awesome plinking rounds in my Blackhawk 6.5", zero leading.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Thanks Doby45. I appreciate that.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I went and shot 20 rounds of my 125's today and got next to nothing for leading on the forcing cone. I bumped up the Bullseye to 3.3 grains. I may try 3.4 and see if it completely eliminates the leading. I was very careful in seating the boolits. I used a little bit bigger flare to start them to make sure I wasn't scaping off any LLA. When I get Doby45's boolits, I will try them at 3 grains and see what happens. Anyway. I'm glad I didn't spend the afternoon cleaning out lead in the barrel. Thanks for all you guys help. I'm pretty sure this won't be the last problem I encounter.

[Doby45]

Correction on my 120gr range loads, I use 3.4-3.5 of Bullseye. Good thing I write down notes as I loaded a bunch up today and when I went to charge the cases I checked my notes and it says "3.5gr Bullseye (Great)"

[JIMinPHX]

I use 3 gr of Bullseye under either a 105 or 125 grain 12ish bnh boolit in a .38 for my wife load. I've had generally good results. I don't crimp much at all. It's just not needed with a charge that scant & a powder that fast. If I were you, I'd try less crimp, like almost none.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I'll try the (next to nothing) crimp,Jim. It is pretty light right now, but the lighter the load, the more my wife will enjoy shooting it. At least I am showing some progress in getting this load feasible.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I got Doby45's care package today. Very good looking boolits! Thanks Doby45. That will help. You have a very good fill out on your boolits. Kake Cutter looks great. Now I just have to figure out what to do with the BAC and C-Red lube you sent. Looks like more reading for me.

[Doby45]

Melt those two sticks together and pour it in your old cake pan with your boolits soldiered up in it. Then let it cool and cut em out. Size and repeat. :) You can thank Buckshot for the super job on the cutter, everything he does is top notch. I should have sent you some of the 358477 HP boolits to try too. Buckshot did that for me also.

[JIMinPHX]

Sometimes, with the really scant powder charges, a hollow base on the boolit helps things come together.

[lylejb]

I've had really good luck with trail boss powder for the light 38's

it's not as fast as bullseye, but still plenty fast enough

2.6gr with a lee 158 RF is like an oversized 22, little recoil, little report, and fills the case much better.

You can, and may want to load higher than that, but for a novice - introductory load it's great.

[Good Cheer]

I'm kinda partial to loading Lyman's old hollow base wadcutter backwards.
Seat it out and size the front of it .354" far enough to slide on up into the chamber throat without interference.

[JIMinPHX]

I'm kinda partial to loading Lyman's old hollow base wadcutter backwards.

An old fisherman that I used to know back east used to use backwards wadcutters like that for quieting down large sharks when he pulled them into the boat. According to him the results were "just like hitting him with an oar". Apparently they pancaked pretty well & didn't over penetrate...which I could image might be a good thing when you are in a boat that is miles from shore.

[Good Cheer]

An old fisherman that I used to know back east used to use backwards wadcutters like that for quieting down large sharks when he pulled them into the boat. According to him the results were "just like hitting him with an oar". Apparently they pancaked pretty well & didn't over penetrate...which I could image might be a good thing when you are in a boat that is miles from shore.

Like an oar sounds about right. It's plumb amazin' what they'll do out of an air weight snubby.