Good Defense Loads-.44 Spl Charter Arms

[Milanodan]

Some years ago I snagged 3 CA .44 Bulldogs--a 2.5" Pug, a standard 3", and a 4" "Target" model.

I have a big variety of older .44 Boolits and pistol powders, but a long while ago I bought a box of Cor-Bon 180 JHP's, listed at 1,000 FPS, barrel length was 4", I think.

Looking for your recommendations for hoodlum-type defense loads, esp. in the Pug. Should I just use something like a 180 gr solid Boolit with ~4 or 5 gr. of Bullseye/equiv., given my thinking that a 180 JHP isn't going to expand anyway at the low velocities I'd end up with? Thanks.

[TCLouis]

This is all from a current 2 1/2" barrreled SS B'Dog

I have tried the Lee 200 RNFP with 4.0 of Bullseye, 6.5 and 7.0 of AA #5. I would not care to be in front of them,though the 4.0 gr. of Bullseye is definitely a lower powered load. For social ocassions I think I would go 5.0-5.3 BE with a 180 grain bullet/boolit. Recoil with everything I have tried it not near as much as I had expected in this small gun. The new grips are much like the Pachy COMPACS and are a pleasure in the hand to me

I can tell you more about the performance of the 180 grain coated HP bullet tomorrow afternoon/evening with details of 1 gallon milk jug penetration. I have forgotten the load, but the 180 Remington will sail through 1 gallon of water and penetrate about 8 inches in a wet clay berm (getting lost in the process. I hope 3 milk jugs will do it tomorrow!

3 milk jugs of water did not slow a Remington 180 HP down very much I could not find it in the clay of my berm. Pressure from the bullets passage also blew out little circles inset in the milk jug that is normally inset about 3/8"

Today (7/25) I'll try 5 milk jugs and will also put a 180 JHP and a 200 grain RNFP boolit in the soft clay to compare cavities

[Milanodan]

This is all from a current 2 1/2" barrreled SS B'Dog

I have tried the Lee 200 RNFP with 4.0 of Bullseye, 6.5 and 7.0 of AA #5. I would not care to be in front of them.

I can tell you more about the performance of the 180 grain coated HP bullet tomorrow afternoon/evening with details of 1 gallon milk jug penetration. I have forgotten the load, but the 180 Remington will sail through 1 gallon of water and penetrate about 8 inches in a wet clay berm (getting lost in the process. I hope 3 milk jugs will do it tomorrow!

OK, good start. Thanks.

[HeavyMetal]

When I got my CA Target Bulldog back in the 70's I special ordered a 429348 full wadcutter mold for it.

180 grains was a real winner in this gun I loaded it to about 850 FPS out of the 4 inch barrel using Win. 452AA 4.5 Grains as I recall.

A couple yrs ago the site ran a GB for a copy of the 428352 a 250 grain full wad cutter I bought a 4 banger copy of that and am in love with it.

Either of these boolits will do the deed for you with decent recoil control and very little flash a must have in a defense round in my opinion!

The Corbon stuff is good but I think your asking way to much of a Pug barrel to get that stuff to expand. Try the full wad cutters I think you'll like them !

[Skipper]

I use the Lee 429-214-SWC at 800' in my 2.5" Pug. Hits like a 45 and won't kill your hand.

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/429214sw.gif

[sergeant69]

how about the devestator HP 250 gr. .44 in this gun? i have 2 of them (bulldogs) and if i don't load down recoil is drastic to say the least. but man are they accurate for what they are.

[Milanodan]

how about the devestator HP 250 gr. .44 in this gun? i have 2 of them (bulldogs) and if i don't load down recoil is drastic to say the least. but man are they accurate for what they are.


Somehow the idea of heavy boolits in a short barrel doesn't make sense to me.

Unfortunately I just discovered the lightest .44 boolits I have are 250 gr. Keiths, and I haven't started casting yet.

Looks like Gardners sells some 180 gr.

[2wheelDuke]

I picked up a Bulldog Pug at a gun show a couple years back after hearing him talk about them on and off for years.

I wound up giving it to him for his birthday, and it's his main carry gun now.

He's using some rounds I picked up at the same time from Georgia Arms for his defense load. They've got 200gr Speer JHP's and are loaded on the hot side, and recoil is kinda harsh. It's probably not idea for the snub gun.

I don't think he's even got to hit the bad guy, just the blast from that would make anyone with half a brain turn tail. Even with the recoil being a bit harsh, it's still plenty accurate out to 25 yards when we were testing it out.

He already had plenty of .44spl around that he'd use in his Model 29 sometimes.

[Bret4207]

6.0-6.5 gr Unique and the 429421 work.

[redneckdan]

My carry load for my 629 is a 250gr LSWC-HP at between 850-900FPS, that is better than .45 ACP balistics and less recoil than .44 magnum loads, good enough for me.

[buck1]

I have had very good luck with unique.

[Milanodan]

I'm going to try firing one of the CorBons from the Pug into something and see what happens. Question is what to use. Some guys use wet newspapers, but they appear to be harder than bodies.

[sergeant69]

I'm going to try firing one of the CorBons from the Pug into something and see what happens. Question is what to use. Some guys use wet newspapers, but they appear to be harder than bodies.

so go to arizona and.........., never mind, ur already there!

[MtGun44]

Have fun with the Corbons. Typically they are loaded REAL hot.

Bill

[Jason.223]

I am worried about court and handloads...sure we have all heard about it...some say no problem others say problems!!!

anyway I have been loading my defense guns with buffalo bore ammo....this ammo is hot!!!

It chronographs right about what they claim on their web page...good hot ammo!!!

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=17

this is their 44 spl ammo...have a look

Jason

[Bret4207]

I am worried about court and handloads...sure we have all heard about it...some say no problem others say problems!!!

anyway I have been loading my defense guns with buffalo bore ammo....this ammo is hot!!!

It chronographs right about what they claim on their web page...good hot ammo!!!

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=17

this is their 44 spl ammo...have a look

Jason

Dear Lord, another one that buys Ayoobs line. :roll:Ya know what, we've done this dance before... a lot. Carry what you feel comfy with. You shoot someone your life will be forever changed no matter what you carry.:coffee:

[Milanodan]

Dear Lord, another one that buys Ayoobs line. :roll:Ya know what, we've done this dance before... a lot. Carry what you feel comfy with. You shoot someone your life will be forever changed no matter what you carry.:coffee:

Good point. Imagine the reaction of a jury to seeing and handling a big JHP with a huge opening.

I'll carry my Lightweight Officer's Model .45 whenever I have to go into a crummy area. Longer barrel, bigger hole. You give up a lot of barrel length in a small revolver vs a compact auto, but the .45 is noticeably heavier than the little Pug.

The .45 is far more accurate than the Pug, but in the extremely rare event I'd ever need either one I'd think the distance would be REAL short.

[Daryl]

I am worried about court and handloads...sure we have all heard about it...some say no problem others say problems!!!

anyway I have been loading my defense guns with buffalo bore ammo....this ammo is hot!!!

It chronographs right about what they claim on their web page...good hot ammo!!!

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=17

this is their 44 spl ammo...have a look

Jason

A recent (last few mos) Handloader touched on this. In that article, they stated that they were unaware of any legal cases as a result of using handloads. That was good enough for me - but everyone needs to make their own decision.

[Combat Diver]

For my old 3" Bulldog I carried either Winchester 200 gr STHP or Federal 200 gr LHP. Still have some old PMC Ultramax (?) that used the copper cookie cutter bullet. I haven't bought any 44 Special in a long time as last week or so I just got back my Bulldog from my BIL who I loaned it to for 10 years (I've been on the otherside of the Atlantic too much).
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/CA_Bulldog.JPG

I did fire some 240 gr LSWC that I loaded about 15 years ago last week which I don't remember the powder or charge but they were stiff in that lightweight revolver.

CD

[buck1]

WOW thats some hot ammo! And pricy too$$$$!
The only time to use a defence gun, is if our or our families lives depend on stopping a real bad guy from doing very bad things and RIGHT NOW. so I agree in carring stoping power if you carry. If that gun has to fire, common sence demands it to be enugh to stop the bad action with a single shot. my $.02 ...Buck

[9.3X62AL]

That Federal 200 grain HP was some GOOD STUFF. Is it still in print? I can't think of a better carry round in a 44 CA than that ammo, if you are concerned about factory vs. handload (AKA The Myth Of Massad).

[sergeant69]

i have been in LE since 1972 in one form or another and i have never heard someone say "man that was too much recoil, wish i'd shot him with something else". ur focus is elsewhere during the caca hitting the fan. believe it.

[MakeMineA10mm]

For a good self-defense handload with light recoil, I'd go with the Speer HJ-SWC-HP 225gr with 5.5-6.0grs W231. This duplicates the 45acp with a better-shaped bullet and a soft-cored HP. Should work dandy. I agree completely with what the sergeant said above, though, and myself, I load this bullet hotter, but all my 44s currently have magnum chambers.

[Groo]

Groo here
Get some full wad cutter bullets target [about 200gr] and load a starting 44 spec load.
Fun ,accurate, and what a flat nose!!!!!!!!!!!

[Freischütz]

I have an original with a 3" barrel. I use Brent4207's load with Unique and 429421. I tried a 225 gr SWC but it shot low. 429421 is right on.

[MT Gianni]

I recently bought a 214 Gr HP mold from Mellowroadman. It is accurate with 5,0 gr AA#2 and also with 5.5 gr Red Dot which spanks the hand harder. I did not Chrono either load. The HP did not expand in 5 gallon jugs of water. Shot out of a 20" bbl Rossi 92 it blew a 1 liter water bottle as far apart as anything I have ever shot one with.

[luvtn]

Hi,
I have a Bulldog Pug from Charter 2000 2.5 inch barrel. I use the blazer 200 gr HP and Corbon 165 gr hp for carry. I play with 240gr swc over 10 grs of 2400 for woods carry. Snappy recoil about like a 45 acp, but accurate
lt

[powhs]

Been loading a 220 WFN hard cast bullet over Power Pistol for my CA Pug. Just ordered a Lyman #429360 232gr SWC mold. I want to try it with some soft lead at about 825 fps. Will try it on water jugs and let you know.

[Dale53]

If I had to use factory loads in the PUG, I would try Winchester's 200 gr H.P. ammo.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65252-5.html

However, since I cast my own bullets and reload, I would just use my Group Buy 200gr. Wadcutters. I would load it as fast as I could stand (the recoil will be the limiter in a .44 Snubbie - not the pressure). I have shot this bullet ahead of 5.0 grs of Red Dot and in a full size revolver it chronographs 878 fps.

If you can handle the recoil in your revolver, that would certainly do the job. If not, then just reduce the load by .5 or1.0 gr until you can handle it. That wide flat meplat of a full wadcutter will do as much as you can do with a snubbie and I guarantee it will get the job done.

Dale53

[powhs]

Good 44 Bulldog reveiw at the below link.
Even has the Lyman devastator hollow point.
http://www.gunblast.com/Cassill_Bulldog.htm
:redneck:

[Freightman]

Been thinking about a Bull Dog for carry but I have a Taurus 450 with a 2" barrel in 45 Colt. I did find that 185/200gr SWC works better than the 255g, and would think the lighter boolits in the Bull Dog would be the same.

[pietro]

I've been jonesin' for another .44 Bulldog like the one I had 35 years ago, for these last 6-7 years - until I found an unfired 2-1/2" stainless .44 Pug in it's original little, form-fitting, triangle-shaped, clamshell-type plastic case.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1056072/DSCN0365.JPG

The only .44 Special ammo I had on hand was some Blazer 200gr HP's, that turned out to be scary accurate..................................... Enough so, that I think I better look for more, because I don't think I can make loads that good. :rolleyes:

.

[bowhunter]

The truth is it don't need to expand. It is already as large as a 6 or 7 mm will ever expand in a h.p. Rifle, in my 696 s&w i use 215 gr. Lyman and 17 gr. H4227/imr4337 and mag primer.

[30calflash]

Dear Lord, another one that buys Ayoobs line. :roll:Ya know what, we've done this dance before... a lot. Carry what you feel comfy with. You shoot someone your life will be forever changed no matter what you carry.:coffee:

Don't discount Mr. Ayoobs take on this. The courts opinion has everything to do with how things go for you AFTER the fact, whether it be by judge or jury. Win-Rem-Federal all have spent big$$$ to make reliable effective defense ammunition. Buy factory for carry and load for practice.
You may never spend a day in jail because of the ammo you used BUT you could loose everything that you own.

[Tracy]

250 grain #429421 Keith over 12.6 AL8. Gives right at 1000 fps from my 2.5" Bulldog Pug. Has a rubber band effect as the gun tries to hurl itself over my shoulder while the rubber grip stays behind.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Don't discount Mr. Ayoobs take on this. The courts opinion has everything to do with how things go for you AFTER the fact, whether it be by judge or jury. Win-Rem-Federal all have spent big$$$ to make reliable effective defense ammunition. Buy factory for carry and load for practice.
You may never spend a day in jail because of the ammo you used BUT you could loose everything that you own.

My reloads are loaded to kill quickly . . . what do they do?

I'll keep carrying my reloads, dead is dead! Whether with a frying pan or a 50 bmg with factory loads . . .

[Bret4207]

Don't discount Mr. Ayoobs take on this. The courts opinion has everything to do with how things go for you AFTER the fact, whether it be by judge or jury. Win-Rem-Federal all have spent big$$$ to make reliable effective defense ammunition. Buy factory for carry and load for practice.
You may never spend a day in jail because of the ammo you used BUT you could loose everything that you own.

My friend, with all due respect, I DO discount Ayoobs garbage in this area. I asked him in an email war we were having to back up his claims on this and that he was a real street cop with time on the road. He did neither. Wanted to send me his educational records.

I spent 22-23 years on the road as a real cop. I know fluff when I hear it. He's a good writer and I'm sure he's a great guy and wonderful expert witness, but he stuck his foot in it with this one.

There are no cases where it played out that a handload was determining factor in a guilty verdict. NONE. But- you carry what you feel comfortable with. If I can make any suggestion it's that you think long and hard about the fact life as you know it will cease when you pull the trigger. Pray you never have to do it.

[30calflash]

BRET4207, I appreciate your comments on the subject. There is a lot of info out there that can get you in the deep stuff, very quickly. I'm inclined to go with Mr. Ayoobs recommendations, though. The biggest thing is knowing what the mood of the courts are in your area of operations. It is a good idea to be forewarned when you carry for self defense. It's up to those who carry to know what they are getting into long before they ever have to use it.
That being said is that I agree 100% with your last two sentences. Things will be much different and pray you never have to use it.

[Changeling]

Whats wrong with cast Wad Cutters!

[Combat Diver]

Granted I carry factory ammo in my bottom feeders when CCW. However, majority of the time I'm open carrying as I'm usually in the woods tracking, fishing, hunting, scouting, etc. Then the Bulldog, model 29 or 58 will be loaded with a home cast boolit. Then they shouldn't have attacked me. A handgun is still less powerful then a rifle.

[JIMinPHX]

The .44 special factory loads that I have messed with have all been pretty snappy. I can't think of one that I thought was substandard for a defensive round.

This is a .44 we are talking about, not some sub caliber mouse gun that needs some kind of laser high tech, super double special, monster ammo to become an effective deterrent.