Bench shooting help..& accuracy problem...

[Shome10x]

A while back a "bench shooting" thread was presented. One thing I gathered was that a "soft" pad was needed for hands/arms or under grip frame...Well I decided to go to the range this am, scrounging through the basement for something suitable. Lo & behod there was a Knee pad that I had bought at Lowe's in the garden department. Worked great! No shifting at the bench...

Now the accuracy problem...flyers! For a ten shot group @ 50yds, I get 2-3 flyers. shifts a group from 1.5" to 3-4"...I've exhausted my pea brain trying to find the problem...any suggestions?

Things I've already tryed....crown, charge, powder (two), case tension, diff bullets...I don't know what else to try....Primers? FPS?

Thanks,

Chris in MO

[Bass Ackward]

Based upon what you wrote and the frustration that you imply, I would investigate if it can be to a specific chamber (s). If no, then that eliminates mechanical. If yes, then you need to investigate why.

If you are dead sure about your bullet quality, then a change in bullet design and / or bullet sizing can change this. Lube or bullet hardness also can be a factor.

What you need to understand is that these aren't in any particular order.

It's what is easiest for you to try first. Some guys won't bat an eye at buying another mold design. Personally I feel that everything works for somebody else, why not me?

If you already have a smaller sizer on hand, I would go there first. Another lube, I would go there. I assume you have already cut your powder charge or I would have mentioned that. Primer can affect burn rate, while primer will always make a difference, it shouldn't be that touchy that primer is a show stopper. But it happens.

Lastly would be the expense of another mold .... for cost reasons.

[Changeling]

What BA said, in addition, What are you shooting, complete details would be nice.

[44man]

True, we have no idea what you are shooting. Gun, powder, alloy and boolit.
Then are fliers just stringing up and down or are they all over.
Hard to get help without information.

[Blammer]

I'd first try to make sure the firearm is on the bench in the SAME position each time before firing.

sometimes where you rest a firearm will affect the boolits impact.

[Shome10x]

Well...the cast I have been trying are bought...no mould yet. RN sized to large .358, box says 12 brinnel, visually sorted...nice looking stuff.

Also trying various swaged .358 bullets...these are all swc. Nice bullets...

FPS...700-800, with PB and VV N310 out of a model 14. All throats .3580-.3585---swaged bullets are a slip fit, cast need to be "pushed".

The 50 yd groups are typically: 7-8 shots in "round" group 1.5-2.0", then 2-3 low-usually right. Opens group to 3.5-4". If those 7-8 shots weren't so tight...it wouldn't bother me...

I've spent weeks on improving my "bench" technique...I've got to this pt, with the bench tips you folks provide.

I've not yet pushed loads to 850 -900 fps...

Thanks,

c in mo

[ole 5 hole group]

Unless you shoot a lot & I mean a lot, it’s difficult to get your timing down to shoot consistent good 10-shot groups at 50 yards. There’s a lot to gun handling and consistency is the key word. You don’t want your grip to touch anything but your hand and if you use the tea-cup grip or any other for that matter, it should be very consistent shot to shot, as does your trigger pull. Try placing the revolver frame into the bag the same way with the same forward pressure etc. You must keep that front sight aligned and try shooting 5-shot groups. If the front sight appears to be blocking one way or the other at the moment of recoil, call your shot prior to looking in the spotting scope – if the bullet strike is where you called it, consider it to be a good shot and chalk it up to lousy gun handling/sight alignment.

[Edubya]

I hope that you're not going to tell us that this was done with a 4" barreled, open sight revolver! If so, shame on you for such a brazen, childish complaint. :)

EW

[jsizemore]

Chris,
I'd make up or buy some sand bags. Find a piece of pipe roughly the same diameter as you barrel and make a groove in your front packed bag. Use the butt of your grip to pack your rear bag. Dry fire till your sights stay on target from start through hammer fall. I would try to lay across the bench so I could rest my cheek or chin on my arm. Practice, practice and practice some more. Elbow pad helps when on the elbow, not under the gun.
If you don't like carrying sand bags try dried beans, but they tend to shift around easier.

[spqrzilla]

Now the accuracy problem...flyers! For a ten shot group @ 50yds, I get 2-3 flyers. shifts a group from 1.5" to 3-4"...I've exhausted my pea brain trying to find the problem...any suggestions?



If you are shooting a revolver, my suggestion is to get more realistic expectations of handgun accuracy. A three inch group at 50 yards is good for all but certain custom revolvers.

If you are shooting something like a high end custom revolver or a Thompson Center Contender then you may have something to complain about, if you are not allowing the barrel to warm up.

[44man]

Soft boolits cause fliers.

[Shome10x]

Sounds like a good excuse to buy a new revolver...custom, none the less....I've been eyeing a 686 SSR...does that count as "custom"?

I'm accustomed to shooting "tuned" 1911's with produced groups from 1.5-2.5 inches at 50yds...so my expections may be high for a stock Model 14. BUT is sure would be nice...

Over the past months...position and grip were hard lessons...but things worked out. New sandbags may help...

Thanks all!

c in MO

[Shome10x]

44man, How hard do you suggest? These won't be pushed faster than 875fps...

Thanks,

c in MO

[44man]

44man, How hard do you suggest? These won't be pushed faster than 875fps...

Thanks,

c in MO
It is not the velocity, it is the effect fast powder has on a boolit. I would start with water dropped WW metal.
If that helps, then try oven hardening to see if it is even better. Let boolits age long enough to get full hard, takes a week usually.
The swaged boolit is just a blob when it leaves the muzzle.

[fecmech]

I would suggest not shooting 10 shot groups with a revolver unless it holds 10 shots. Doing that requires you to take your hand off the grip to reload which adds another variable. Shoot 6 shot groups without repositioning your hand and then if you have consistent fliers you can look to mechanical or other issues as previous posters have mentioned. At 700-800 fps you have a lot of "barrel time" for your bullets and consistent hand grip is a key factor there.

[gray wolf]

Lo & behod there was a Knee pad that I had bought at Lowe's in the garden department. Worked great! No shifting at the bench...

Don't no if you are still using your knee pad ? if you are get rid of it, It's not going to give you what you are looking for.
Think ransom rest--No you don't have to go and get one, just think like one.
What does it do ? it holds the pistol rock steady ( posed to anyway )
I would say a sand bag is the way to go, at least a half of pant leg. tied on one end and filled with kitty litter or fine sand, or a mix of the two.
It should not be so low that you have to bend over so much that you then have to pick up your head and bend your neck. That will make you tired and mess up your sight picture.
try and sit as up-rite as possible.
Grip the pistol firmly with a grip you can repeat over again, No hand under the grip. the bottom of the grip on and into the sand bag. Fluff the bag and slowly press the weapon into the bag down and forward until it is like a vise holding you and the weapon.
every shot must be the same, once I am set I may even have someone else cock the hammer for me if it is a revolver. If not it is a little trick to release your grip to cock the hammer and return to the same grip and place in/on the bag. ( but very doable )
Trigger control and sight picture along with consistency is the key here.
Try to duplicate that ransom rest.



Well...the cast I have been trying are bought...no mould yet. RN sized to large .358, box says 12 brinnel, visually sorted...nice looking stuff.

Also trying various swaged .358 bullets...these are all swc. Nice bullets...

FPS...700-800, with PB and VV N310 out of a model 14. All throats .3580-.3585---swaged bullets are a slip fit, cast need to be "pushed".

Settle on one load, variables will kill you. you may also want to shoot at a shorter distance until you are confident with your tecknique and your load.
Bullets , pistol , bag position, powders, amount of powder, seat dept, and on, and on.
CONSISTANCY.
Skip what does not pertain to you, but some of it may help someone Else.
I shoot an almost stock 45 ACP, free hand and benched for group testing. I know what it takes ammo wise, gun wise, and bench technique wise.
Get rid of the knee pad, what your asking your pistol to do will take a little more support.
Shoot 5 or 6 shot groups and get them as small as you can, and ten figure out why the rest don't go into the same group.
Sorry for skipping around and being so mouthy, but what you would like to do covers a lot of ground and I didn't even get into the mechanics of your pistol.

Sam--who does not know it all

[HeavyMetal]

I'm going to make a "left Field" suggestion: weigh your boolits!

Among other things I have tried in the past was weighing boolits for my compatition guns.

What an eye opener the first time was!

I have one of the first Pact electronic scales, and use it for weighing boolits only, and I sort my "match" boolits into lots of no more than one grain plus or minus the average weight of the as cast boolit.

This means if I make a 1000 200 grain 45 boolits and my average weight is 197 grains 196 to 198 is going to be my goal. the others that don't meet this go into seperate lots based on thier weight.

Now we come to the interesting part the: Wild Card Boolits!

I call them this because it is wild that I wind up with any boolits that are that far off in weight!

Again during my first session with the Pact scale I made this discovery: several boolits that were out side the average, and I mean way outside!

I found a half dozen that were 5 to 10 grains lighter and another half dozen that were 15 over.

Mix these in a random loading session and the light ones would certainly hit lower on the target because they are shooting flatter because they are faster??

So before your next range session weigh the ones your going to load and make sure they all weigh within one grain of each other but even more important is to make sure that you have no surprise weights in the batch!

Think your flyer problem will then disappear.

[Changeling]

Just a thought: If you are getting 2-3.5 (sort of your average) inch groups from a homemade shooting bench at 50 yd using some commercially bought bullets with varying diameters and also some swagged bullets of "some diameter' and all these make up the the above accuracy, I can't understand your problem and post. There are some here who can't get that accuracy with good bullet fit, the same bullet, good lube, correct BHN, powder type, pistol/revolver, barrel length, etc.
However you seem to have a "Gun" that will do it with anything you put in it.

Just wondering, what accuracy are you expecting from your gun at 50 yd?

[Shome10x]

Changeling...Let's just say that group size in not the emphasis....Nice "round" groups are. I'm shooting with a scope and can definitely identify the "flyers". I'm used to shooting "match" guns @ 50yds...Lets just say, "a bunch"... So, I just want to correct the errant ones...

44Man...Would changing to a slower powder help? I have some old powder the speed of Unique...

Thanks all!

c in MO

[crabo]

We had a pretty good thread before about bench techniques and holds. I would look for it, but I need to go out in the 95 degree heat and cast some boolits.

[fecmech]

I'm accustomed to shooting "tuned" 1911's with produced groups from 1.5-2.5 inches at 50yds...so my expections may be high for a stock Model 14. BUT is sure would be nice...


Thanks all!

c in MO

My stock Model 14-3 will stay under 2" easily at 50 yds. The only thing that ever knocked revolvers out of the centerfire bullseye game were timed and rapid fire. Revolvers were staying inside the 10 ring on 50 yd bullseye targets long before anyone had a clue that 1911's were capable of that kind of accuracy. If you took a box of .38 spl factory target loads (148 hbwc's) and most of the Colt or S&W stock revolvers made in the 50's or 60's, it would be unusual not to stay inside the 3" 10 ring of the 50 yd target. Unless you have a bad one I would expect your Model 14 to do as well as your 1911's.
One way to get an idea of the guns capabilities would be to get some of the Remington 148 gr HBWC's from Midway or elsewhere. Load them flush seated in same headstamp Wadcutter brass( brass with 1 or 2 canalures in the middle of the case) over 2.7-3.0 of Bullseye powder. You should see nice round small 50 yd groups, if not I would be looking hard at the gun. In the past I would have suggested simply buying a box of Factory wadcutters but I have heard rumors that 38 wadcutter ammo is not what it once was. Good luck.

[44man]

44Man...Would changing to a slower powder help? I have some old powder the speed of Unique...

Thanks all!

c in MO[/QUOTE]
Yes, you can shoot softer lead at a higher velocity with slow powders but Unique is still fast. 2400 would do better.
The very worst is pure lead wad cutters with Bullseye in a .38. Lead will squirt from the gap. It shows right away that it is not velocity related, it is how you attain the velocity.

[Bass Ackward]

After reading all this, I would say gun. Now my recommendation would be to just load and shoot it. In 2 or 3 thousand rounds it will settle down.