45 caliber Air Rifle

[HollowPoint]

Hey, I just bought a new Korean .45 caliber air rifle. My reason for posting here is to ask some of you more experienced bullet designer guys for some input on an optimum bullet design and weight for this rig.

Just for arguments sake well say it'll be used for paper punching out to 75 yards. I have yet to shoot it. In fact I'm waiting for the FedX guy to drop it off today.

The Rifling Twist is said to be 1 in 20.5. Velocity as it comes from the factory is said to hover around 750 to 800 fps.

Now, being the chronic tinkerer that I am, (I think it's a sickness) I fully intend to dismantle this toy completely just to see what makes it tick. With any luck I'll be able to make a few modifications to up the velocity numbers I listed above.

What drove me to buy such a toy? It had a little bit to do with the fact that I've grown weary of buying primers, gas checks, brass and powder; repeatedly.

But mostly it was because, over the last couple of years I've developed a severe case of tendonitis in my "Drawing Arm." This means that I can no longer enjoy the sport of archery hunting without having to endure several weeks of extreme pain afterwards.

I really liked the "Spot-N-Stalk" method of hunting that bow and arrow hunting afforded me. Although I've had to give up archery, I haven't given up hunting.

Since this Air Rifle is a "Close Up" hunting implement, I figured it would give me the same pleasure I derived for "Spot-N-Stalk" hunting with a bow and arrows. Not to mention the fact that it gave me an excuse to buy another toy.

(Sadly, the only things that can be legally hunted with "Pneumatic Weapons" here in Arizona at the present time are cottontails and maybe Jackrabbits.)

Since I have more .44 caliber bullet molds than I have .45 caliber molds, I've also considered changing the barrel out to a .44 caliber.

For those of you who might be inclined to offer up suggestions regarding a good bullet for this set up, could you also offer up some suggestions for optimum .44 bullet shapes and sizes.

Thanks
HollowPoint

[9.3X62AL]

This is one INTRIGUING text, sir.

I can offer no assistance on projectile design, but I have air-rifle hunted for quite some time in California. All of our resident game birds are lawful to take with airguns .20" caliber or larger. I am not an archery hunter, but your description of the spot-and-stalk nature of the sport is right on the money.

I am assuming that due to your disability and the platform's velocity potential the rifle is a pre-charged pneumatic. What is the weight of typical pellets for the rifle?

I have 2 air rifles that get afield quite a bit. Both are RWS, a Model 45 break-barrel in .177 and a Model 52 side-lever in 25 caliber. The M-45 can get 800-900 FPS with its pellets weighing 7.2 to 8.3 grains. Spire-pointed pellets kill ground squirrels and crows a LOT better than the wadcutter target pellets like Meisterkugelns.

The M-52 has been re-sprung by its initial owner, and runs the 27 grain Beeman Crow Magnums to 780 FPS. This is every bit of the power present in a 22 Short handgun, and the Crow Magnum pellet is a shallow hollw point. The rifle is an unalloyed bee-otch to cock, though. It hits with a discernable THWOCK on ground squirrels, crows, and jackrabbits. They seldom do anything but roll over and expire, and that effect is good to 35 yards or so. Early season chukar and quail around here get wise in a hurry when the shotgunners show up in October, but I've nailed a couple Gambel's quail with the 25. No chukars--yet.

Best of luck with that big-bore air rifle!

[HollowPoint]

Greetings Sir.

You are correct. The rifle itself is a Big Bore Sam Yang PCP in caliber .45.

If one buys their cast bullets pre-made they are available in any weight from 125 to 385 grain. Also; there are lead round balls of about 140 grain. I'm sure there are others available.

I spoke to a gal at the Arizona Game and Fish Department before purchasing this Air Rifle just to confirm what I'd read on their "Regulations" pages. It stated that "Pneumatic Weapons" (of any caliber) could only be used for hunting rabbits..

Have you ever hunted cottontails with a .45? I have. Not a pretty picture. However, it is effective if you're good at head-shots.

When I asked her how one would go about changing those regulations to include Big Bore Air Rifles she stated that I'd already taken the first step in the process. Apparently all inquiries regarding this type of suggestion are reviewed by the powers that be here in Arizona.

I'm just one guy though. If there are any other Big Bore PCP Air Rifle shooters/hunters from AZ reading this, please take the time to visit the AZ Game And Fish website and add your voice to the changing of this "Pneumatic Weapons" regulation.

I'd like to see it changed so we could at least hunt coyotes with them. Now that I think about it, I'd also like to see a new BIG BORE AIR RIFLE Category included in among all the other forum categories on this Cast Boolits site as well.

Right now I only have one .45 caliber bullet mold. It's the Lyman Devastator mold. Since I got into bullet casting to keep from having to buy my bullets, this is the cast bullet I'll be using until I can get a line on a better design for this particular setup; or until I can change out the existing barrel to a .44 caliber. I have three different molds in that caliber.

Thanks for the input.
HollowPoint

[melloairman]

I have the 909 as well as a 201 and a Jack haley 32 right now . The 909 is know to love .457 R.B. When it comes to bullets some like .454 others like .457 . Mine likes .454 . They have a very shallow rifle grove barrel and normally will not group well with a lead any harder than 7bhn . I have keep mine on R.B so far but I have bought a 160 mold to try . They can use some help in power in most cases . To get the stock off to deal with the spring you need to take the round plug out of the butt pad and deep inside you will see the 1/2 inch wide screw slot that has to be removesd . I would try and stay under 250 grains for sure at first and with bullets if it is not grouping try to resize from .454 - .457 .It is not a easy task to change the barrel on the 909 . From what you have said I would buy a .457 R.B. mold and get some pure or soft lead and go have fun Good luck Marvin

[HollowPoint]

Hi Marvin:

Thanks for the input. I've read about the "Users Manual" that comes with this rifle as being less than useful. It's good to hear from someone that at least has some experience as to how to taking it apart.

I look forward to playing around with it before I actually take it for a spin.

I've been hitting as many of the air gun forums as I can just to get a feel for what other have experienced with this particular model. As you might have guessed, there are many pros and cons.

It seems like the self-appointed experts tend to dominate the discussions but, occasionally you get some input for one or two guys that actually have hands-on experience which generally proves to be quite useful. They're the ones that make wading through pages of second, third and forth hand information worth doing.

Well, yesterday when I check the tracking number on this package, it stated that my new air gun was scheduled to be delivered today. I just checked again a little while ago and it now states that it's scheduled to be delivered some time tomorrow.

I've done a little work today but, the rest of the time has been spent waiting for the FedX man to knock at my door. The anticipation...

HollowPoint

[melloairman]

I know what you are saying . Those R.B. s are hard to beat . 6 shot group at 50 yards 2 inches or better . One other thing . The little screw that holds the cocking lever on has a bad habit of comeing lose and then the lever breaks . Take it out and either put some teflon tap on it or some medium lock tight and check it from time to time . I repeat my self r.b. r.b. .r.b that 1 in 20 shallow groved rifle barrel loves those r.b . Marvin

[beagle]

Hmmmmm! I've shot a 9mm and with the 358242 Lyman 92 grain cast that I cast up. In the .45, maybe one of the hollow base .45 bullets intended for the BP revolvers would work.

Having seen the abundance of cottontails and jacks in the SW, that sounds like a noble project./beagle

[ANeat]

This is an interesting subject, later this fall if you want to try some .452 bullets Ill get back with you. I have a decent swaging setup for .452, just about any weight and configuration can be dreamed up.

On the airgun bullets like this what do they use for lube (if they use lube??)

[HollowPoint]

ANeat:

From what I've read, little if any lube is used. I believe it's because these projectiles are traveling at such slow velocities.

I was kind of wondering about hollow base bullets as well.

It will be interesting to experiment with. I look forward to hearing from you regarding your swaged bullets.

Thanks for the reply.
HollowPoint

[melloairman]

R.B. need no lube . And the only lube I use for swaging and resizing is spray on dry lube . Remember you can not use petroleum based lubes around high pressure air . It will explode on you . Hollow base has no advantage from my testing . As a matter a fact I have lost accuracy due to the longer bullet and the slow 1 in 20 twist rate barrel . Marvin

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Hollowpoint,
I haven't messed with any of those big bore air guns yet, but I have been thinking about it. There is a shop down in Chandler called air guns of AZ that has everything you could ever possibly want in an air gun unless the caliber is above .25.:? That's kind of where I got stopped in the process of getting one. I don't want to buy one sight unseen via mail order, especially at the prices that they go for.

Now, having identified myself as someone that has zero actual experience with one of these things, I do have a few ideas that you may want to consider. There is an old-school boolit mold that was called the collar button. It's a fairly light weight .45 that sort of looks like an overgrown pointed air gun pellet, except that the back end is not hollow. I'll bet that if you got some of them & drilled a cavity in the back of them, they would probably work real well in that rifle you have on the way. I can do some good concentric drilling if you can get your hands on some of them to try out.

That aside, I would sort of think that any bore riding boolit with a reasonably sized bearing surface would work well if you drilled out the back end of it to form a skirt. That's just what I would expect though. I don't know that to be true.

I would very much appreciate it if you would post some pictures when you get that thing taken apart. I'd love to know what makes them tick inside, especially the fast dump valve area. the valve seems to be the place where you have the most room to make velocity improvements from what little I know about the pre-charged guns in general.

Thanks for posting here. I'll be interested in hearing how you make out.

Jim

[BCall]

The collar button might be a good idea, but I do know some guys had great success using the EPP/UG 150 gr. boolit from Big Lube. I think they bought them already cast, but the mold would be easier to get than a collar button mold I would think.

[HollowPoint]

Hi Jim and BCall:

I've been considering the bullet design you've eluded to. The reason being; it seems like ever since air guns became known to me (back when I was in elementary school) the shape of the pellets have always been like that of an hour glass.

I've wondered if a person just scaled that design up to .45 caliber size, would it still perform with the accuracy that they are known to achieve in the smaller bore sizes?

I have the bench top machinery to make and modify bullet molds but, on a bullet shaped more like an hour glass than a traditional bullet or round ball, I'd have to really think hard to come up with a way to get my mold cavities to take that shape.

It seems to me that out of necessity any such mold would have to be a nose pour type that required a hollow pointing pin to produce the hollow at the tail end of this projectile but, I'm getting ahead of myself now. I don't even have this toy in my hands yet.

Keep the suggestions coming.
HollowPoint

[scrapcan]

I too am interested in this topic and would like to own one also.

there is aother thread on this topic by Butcher45. I will see if I can find it. I think Sharpshooter is also shooting a big bore. Marlin Junky was also looking to get into the big bore airgun shooting game.

[scrapcan]

here is one thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=54511&highlight=airgun

Here is another by Butcher45
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76446

[2wheelDuke]

That sounds like quite a "toy." What does it use for a gas source? I tried looking it up online, and saw mention of them being filled by a scuba tank.

I'm interested to see your review on it.

I haven't bought an air gun other than a cheap airsoft toy since Service Merchandise decided that air guns were bad for their image and too much of a liability back in the mid 90's. They blew out their remaining stock at 50% off, and I had a few bucks saved up, so I got my mom to buy me a Sheridan Silver Streak that I never would have been able to afford otherwise.

I've come close to ordering one of those Drozd blackbird full auto BB guns, but that's alot of money for a toy with no practical use, I could start a 10/22 project for that.

[Wayne Smith]

It sure ain't casting weather here (discomfort index 110 this weekend!) but when it cools off I have the NEI copy of the collar button mold. PM me when you get to the point of actually wanting to use some. I assume you will want them soft and unlubed.

[JIMinPHX]

It sure ain't casting weather here (discomfort index 110 this weekend!)

Ole came over here last weekend & we cast boolits together on my back patio for several hours. It was probably 110 that day, maybe a little more.

[HollowPoint]

Hello again guys:

The more I read about this "Collar Button Mold" the more it's starting to look like it may be just what I'm looking for. And yes, I believe they would be cast as soft as possible.

I'm certain it would be more than enough for cottontails and coyotes; which is all I really bought this air gun for anyhow.

I cast up all the bullets I thought I'd need last year when it was a little cooler. I do remember casting last summer when it was a little hotter than the 110 degrees mentioned. It wasn't the most pleasant experience but, I'd just gotten a new bullet mold and I was dying to try it out.

Now I see that I may need to cast up some slightly different bullets for this incoming toy.

I'm kind of surprised at the attention that this thread is getting; and kind of glad as well. It's good to see that alot of us never really out-grow the kid in us when looking forward to a new toy to play with.

I just wish that darn FedX guy would show up.

2wheelDuke mentioned a scuba tank as a means of filling the air reservoir on this rifle. Since I'm just a beginner I think I'm going to do it the hard way for now. I mean, I'll be using a hand pump until I can save up the scratch for a small carbon fiber tank with all the appropriate fitting and such.

Just as a side note; I believe I'm going to sell my Encore pistol in 223 caliber to help me reach that goal. If any of you knows someone in the area interested, drop me a line. It's a 15" factory blued barrel with a Simmons pistol scope and pacmyr grip and forend. Nice little rig; practically new. I just never shoot it anymore. I think the last time I shoot it was early last year.

HollowPoint

[9.3X62AL]

In Phoenix or Indio, 110* F is almost sweater weather. :)

What kind of ballistics are yielded by the roundballs from the PCP rifles?

[SharpsShooter]

What kind of ballistics are yielded by the roundballs from the PCP rifles?

Roundball will be a bit less, but the 360gr boolit I cast (right)

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo53/bbbrownbommer/003-1.jpg

Fired from this...

http://www.bgmfairguns.com/thumb%20rifle.jpg

With a 3500psi fill, sends it downrange at 890fps and that's 630 ft-lbs. Groups run at an inch ( 50 yards) for 4 shots, then a fill is needed.

SS

[JIMinPHX]

If you decide to go the scuba tank route, there is a scuba shop in Mesa called Saguaro Dive & Sport that will sell tanks to people without a C-card as long as he knows that is is going to be used for an air gun. He's located at 908 E. Impala Ave. Airguns of AZ in Chandler should have all the pumps, fittings, adapters, etc.

How much were you looking to get for that Encore?

[HollowPoint]

Hey, neither one of those two businesses are very far from where I live. When I get that far along I'll have to check them out.

I've been waiting all day for the FedX guy to deliver my new air rifle. I went out to check my mail and found the FedX door tag stuck to my front door. If this weren't a family friendly forum I'd be able to use the appropriate words to describe how I feel right now.

I basically took the day off just to wait for this guy to show up too.

When I called their customer service to see why their driver snuck in and out so stealthfully they didn't have a clue. Fortunately they're going to attempt another delivery tomorrow/Saturday. Unfortunately their driver could arrive anywhere from 9:00 in the morning to 8:00 in the evening.

Looks like it's going to be another long wait.

JIMinPHX, you asked about the price of the Encore pistol I'm wanting to sell. I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but, a while back I tried to sell some of the components from this same TC Encore on the "For Sale" listing on this sight.

I got alot of looky-lou's but no buyers. At the time I was selling everything but the frame. This time around I'm wanting to sell the whole enchilada if I can.

I went back and checked my bank statements to help me remember how much I paid for the various components. I didn't realize it added up to so much.

I'm wanting to get at least $395.00 for the whole thing. (Frame, Barrel, Scope, Grips, Scope Rail, Factory Iron Sights) Plus shipping unless it's bought by someone in town.

I've never shipped a firearm to a buyer before so I'm not really sure how that goes. Hopefully it's not to complicated.

HollowPoint

[swamp]

Hollowpoint

I have the collar button boolit mold also. Have a 1 lb. can ful of lubed and sized at 458. If you want ot ttry some let me know.

If you need unlubed I can cast some. Mostly use 30-1 for this boolit. Plinker in 45-70 and 458 mag.

I also have a 400gr. spitzer boolit for 45 if you would like to give it a try.

Just pm me when you need to.

swamp

[HollowPoint]

Thank you Mr. swamp:

I'll will definately take you up on your offer. I'd kind of like to see how those collar button bullets work out on this air rifle.

I've had a couple of big buckets full of stick on wheel weights for some time now. It looks like I finally have a gun that will need
little if any alloy mixing to get them to work.

Now all I need is for this Air Gun to actually get here.

Thanks again.
HollowPoint

[JIMinPHX]

I'm wanting to get at least $395.00 for the whole thing. (Frame, Barrel, Scope, Grips, Scope Rail, Factory Iron Sights)

You have a PM in you in-box.

[bearcove]

BABore in the vendor section makes a collar button mold.

[PatMarlin]

Awesome subject. Keep the info coming with pics if possible. ...:drinks:

[JIMinPHX]

These are a few boolits that you might want to try as pellets.

[JIMinPHX]

Maybe that first photo didn't make those boolits look like anything special, but if you look at what I did to the bases, they might seem a bit more appropriate for the task at hand.

[2wheelDuke]

Roundball will be a bit less, but the 360gr boolit I cast (right)

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo53/bbbrownbommer/003-1.jpg

Fired from this...

http://www.bgmfairguns.com/thumb%20rifle.jpg

With a 3500psi fill, sends it downrange at 890fps and that's 630 ft-lbs. Groups run at an inch ( 50 yards) for 4 shots, then a fill is needed.

SS

Now that's a pellet gun! :drinks:

How loud is it?

[HollowPoint]

Those look very interesting. Did you use one of your little hollow pointing tools to hollow out the tail ends? Have you shot them out of any of your firearms? What weights are they?

Pat Marlins: I had my camera sitting back on my work bench all day long just waiting to take some pictures but, the FedX guy slipped in and out so stealthfully that I didn't get my Air Gun today after all.

I hope to have it in my hands tomorrow. I could swear my camera was salivating. I know I was. The delivery of my new toy turned out to be a non-event. Oh well, better luck tomorrow.

HollowPoint

[2wheelDuke]

Those look very interesting. Did you use one of your little hollow pointing tools to hollow out the tail ends? Have you shot them out of any of your firearms? What weights are they?

Pat Marlins: I had my camera sitting back on my work bench all day long just waiting to take some pictures but, the FedX guy slipped in and out so stealthfully that I didn't get my Air Gun today after all.

I hope to have it in my hands tomorrow. I could swear my camera was salivating. I know I was. The delivery of my new toy turned out to be a non-event. Oh well, better luck tomorrow.

HollowPoint

That sounds like the brass I was waiting for a few weeks ago. I waited all damn week, checking every day looking for boxes. I finally pulled it up in paypal to see if there was any tracking info before I sent an e-mail asking what happened. At least your fedex guy left a slip.

Turns out the mailman never left the slip to tell me they were at the post office. That's the 2nd or 3rd time that's happened now to either me of the gf.

[JIMinPHX]

When I cut those, I used one of my econo jigs as a boolit clamp to hold the boolits straight, but I actually cut them with my Bridgeport. Most of the tools that I was using were 1/2" diameter, which is too big to fit in the jig. I can make a jig that will take 1/2" tools, I just didn't have one sitting around already made, so I used the tools that were at hand.

I haven't shot any of these. I just whipped them up tonight, thinking that you might like to try them. The SWC style boolit started out around 200 grains. The RNFP started out at 160. They all weight a little less now. I didn't take the time to set up anything precise. I just plunged various tools by eye to give you a variety of things to try. If you decide that you like one of them in particular, I can make up a better batch for more precise evaluation. I figured that for a first look, I'd just scratch up a few rough specimens for you to look at.

There are 4 different types of base cavities. One is from a spot drill. One is from a center drill. One is from a 1/2" ball nose end mill. One is from a 3/8" ball nose end mill. I have no idea what will work best for you. These "pellets" are just made from pistol boolits that I had laying around already made. They are around 12-13bnh. That may be a little harder than you really want for a pellet gun, but it's a place to start. The big hollow cavities should make a big difference.

[JIMinPHX]

Sharpshooter,
What kind of rifle is that you have & how much does something like that cost?

[PatMarlin]

Pat Marlins: I had my camera sitting back on my work bench all day long just waiting to take some pictures but, the FedX guy slipped in and out so stealthfully that I didn't get my Air Gun today after all.

I hope to have it in my hands tomorrow. I could swear my camera was salivating. I know I was. The delivery of my new toy turned out to be a non-event. Oh well, better luck tomorrow.

HollowPoint

Maybe he got scared when he saw the word... GUN.. :brokenima

[Oyeboten]

This is really interesting...


A Mold for a Hollow Base 'Hourglass' having a blunted spire nose ( at the Sprue )...should be pretty feasable to make...nose pour...

[PatMarlin]

So you use an O2 tank to fill in the field? Then use a compressor to fill the tank?

If you know a fireman, they have a lot of air tanks that become obsolete for their purposes rather frequent. My buddy has given me tanks. I have a few around here.

[JIMinPHX]

Pat, it's an air tank, not an oxygen tank. Oxygen is a little more dangerous at that pressure, especially if there is any oil residue left in the mechanism.

The tanks that the firemen use are Scott pack tanks. I'm not sure what pressure they operative at. Scuba tanks are normally used for the refill. Scuba tanks vary in pressure rating. The most common one is 3,000psi, which is what most of the aluminum tanks are rated for. That is the one that you are supposed to use for filling these guns. Other scuba tanks can be rated for 1800, 2250, 3500, 4,500 & 5,000 PSI, but they are less common. Probably 80% of the scuba tanks out there these days are the 3,000psi aluminum tanks. 80 cubic foot (actually 77cf in reality) is by far the most common size. 50 cf is probably the second most common. There are a handful of others. The smallest 3,000cf scuba tank that is commonly available is 6cf baby pony tank.

[BCall]

So you use an O2 tank to fill in the field? Then use a compressor to fill the tank?

If you know a fireman, they have a lot of air tanks that become obsolete for their purposes rather frequent. My buddy has given me tanks. I have a few around here.

Those tanks should work with the proper adapter as long as they hydro date is still good. if it is passed, you will have to have it tested again to have it filled. I know guys with friends in a FD who get them to fill their taks for them. Some won't though.

Some guys even have their own compressors to fill, but the cost is high for a 3000psi compressor.

But just to be square, it's not a O2 tank. Pure O2 could make it a bomb. Nitrogen is good, or just plain air tanks. Paintball guys like to use nitrogen for their tanks. Billy

[PatMarlin]

I was just wondering as Hollowpoint said he was going to use a hand pump. If that would work, wouldn't a regular compressor filling a cylinder tank work as well?

Trying to figure out how these guns work. Do you need special air and a special refill? What's the cost.

[BCall]

The hand pump you need is a special hand pump that works in 2 or 3 stage effect that will pump to 3000 psi. A standard hand pump will not work. The Hill pump is made specifically for pumping to the high pressure. A standard compressor will not fill to the pressure needed for the guns to operate. 3000 psi is needed.

Regular breathing air is all that is needed. If you have a scuba dive shop nearby, they might fill it for you. Cost varies to fill a 3000 psi tank, you would have to check. Some won't fill without a diver's certificate, you would have to talk to them and see.

This is the style of pump needed if you are going to hand pump. Probably the most economical, but the most work. 3000 psi can be hard to pump. I don't have a problem, but at 350lbs, I can put my wieght in it. Small guys may have a bit more trouble.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Benjamin_Hand_Pump_Fits_Discovery_Marauder_Katana_ Challenger_Rifles/2222

4500 psi carbon fiber tanks provide the most shots per fill and seem to be worth the money. But you have to find a place that will fill it. I never got one because there is no one around here that will do 4500psi. Only 3000. You can check with paintball stores or fields if you have any nearby as well. Some will fill to 4500, just depends on what they have on hand. The ones here only do CO2 and 3000 fills from nitrogen tanks. Billy

[9.3X62AL]

Cast Boolits and its richness in membership depth does it again! MANY THANKS to all in this thread who have helped expand my knowledge base of this subject.

The "hand pump" option reminds me of the Lewis and Clark expedition's use of an air rifle. Of course, Clark's slave 'York' was the designated pump operator on many occasions. That poor soul in a later time likely would do the case trimming and primer pocket crimp removal, too.

[JIMinPHX]

You can get 3,000psi hand pumps to fill them with, but I hear that it is a lot of work to pump them up that way. Airguns of AZ has those pumps in stock. They also stock the special fittings to connect a scuba tank to an air gun reservoir.

It costs about $5 to get a 80cf scuba tank filled at a shop. 3,000psi compressors start at around $3,000 for a Maxair 35 & go up from there. The Maxair 35 will fill an 80cf tank in about 20-30 minutes depending on how far you ran the tank down. Maxair compressors are actually still made in Texas, as far as I know.

[SharpsShooter]

Sharpshooter,
What kind of rifle is that you have & how much does something like that cost?

It is a Gargoyle, that belongs to a shooting buddy. I cast for him and get to play with it often. Standard version costs a $1000, $1200 for the high power version.

It is as loud as 38 wadcutters fired from w 4" wheelgun.

Here is a link http://www.bgmfairguns.com/gargoyle.html


SS

[HollowPoint]

It's 11:45 AM right now and I'm still waiting on the FedX guy.

I really have to go to the bathroom but, I just know as soon as I sit down that FedX joker will slip in and out like he did yesterday.

I never realized that so many of you guys had so much experience with big bore air rifles. It's good to have this kind of knowledge source available.

You know what would be nice? Coming up with a few different bullets designed specifically for these types of rifles, picking the best ones and possibly putting together a group buy for these designs.

I don't know if there would be enough interest but, I do know that right now most of the guys that shoot the big bore air guns buy their bullets pre-made by entrepreneurs that have jumped on the opportunities that these Big Bore Air Rifles have opened up.

I've seen images of some of these projectiles that are touted as the latest and greatest. Frankly, alot of those cast bullets may be good but, the cast quality is sometimes laughable. I have to assume that the folks buying these cast bullets don't really know to much about bullet casting.

I'm afraid that when I make a statement like that I presume to know alot more than I do. The fact is I don't know all that much but, I can tell the difference between a well cast bullet and one that was cast in to much of a hurry. Particularly when their makers show them photographed in close-up images.

It could be that they are just scrambling to keep up with demand and quality takes a back seat to quantity. This could be a definite heads-up for some of you bullet designers and mold makers here. You may be missing out by waiting to long to get in on this up and coming big bore air rifle phenomenon.

HollowPoint

[JIMinPHX]

Has anyone ever tried Helium in one of those things? With the super low viscosity of helium's 2-atom molecule, I wonder if it would improve the performance by flowing through the valves faster.

[PatMarlin]

Has anyone ever tried Helium in one of those things? With the super low viscosity of helium's 2-atom molecule, I wonder if it would improve the performance by flowing through the valves faster.

Chili beans I had the other night woulda got the job done for sure, with adequate hose fittings and high pressure cylinder.

[BCall]

Has anyone ever tried Helium in one of those things? With the super low viscosity of helium's 2-atom molecule, I wonder if it would improve the performance by flowing through the valves faster.

It has been tried. I think there was some issues with leakage, as the seals in the guns were not sufficient to hold the small helium molecules. Using helium was inefficient and inconsistent. Does allow for much higher velocities, but unless the airgun was built around helium(no one has done such that I know of), performance has been lacking. Just switching was not worth much unless ultimate velocity is the only goal. Because more air is used, ES and SD were high with fewer shots per fill. Helium is often much more expensive as well. Breathing air works well, without all the trouble. Billy

[JIMinPHX]

I'll bet that this would shoot real well out of that thing.

It's a Hornady #6745 sabot that was designed to let you shoot 9mm & .38 cal slugs out of a .45 cal muzzle loader.

[HollowPoint]

Hey PatMarlin, That's high octane stuff. It might burn those shallow lands and grooves clean out of the bore.

I might tend to lean more toward the sabots that JIMinPHX just showed. That may really work; and not only that, it could also go a long way toward having to keep from changing out barrels to accommodate different calibers.

I'm out for the night. Talk to you all later.

HollowPoint

[Tom Krein]

I have a Sam Yang and a Haley, both in .45 cal. I personally feel the button bullets are a bit light in these for hunting, but should work great for informal plinking.

I am working on designing a bullet in the 265-300 grain range. So far I have two molds, but haven't cast bullets with them... YET! Hoping to get them cast this coming week.

I look forward to what you guys come up with.

Tom

[Butcher45]

It's not hard to find an accurate boolit for that Sam Yang so long as the diameter is at least .454 I would stick to BHN9 and softer for starters. Thanks to several boolit casters I have met online, I have been able to experiment with a ton of different designs in my own 909 (tuned for more power). Generally speaking, the less contact with the barrel (small bands), the better.

HollowPoint, you most definitely want to try the .454 EPP/UG's (order sized, and unsized to see which works best for you). They look more like an "airgun design" then any other boolit I have ever seen.
I was the first airgunner to shoot, and take game (from rabbit to ram) with the BigLube designs (I got mine from Springfield Slim) a few years ago. Since then, I have turned several other airgunners on to the EPP/UG's and have heard only one report that wasn't positive. The EPP/UG is my go-to boolit for target shooting, and small game when I have them around. They are much more air efficient in my own rifle than roundball (probably due to a better seal), and group under an inch center to center at 50 yards off of my steady stix.
I used the EPP/UG's cast in BHN6 alloy when I went to Wyoming to hunt varmints a couple of years ago......I mostly took headshots. The EPP/UG will remove half of a jackrabbit's head every time, and it doesn't even have much of a meplat to speak of. A large meplat boolit would be gnarly on a jackrabbit.

For a medium weight boolit, I have had great luck with hollowpoint #454424's cast from both 50/50 WW/pb, and also pure lead at around .457 diameter. Again, under an inch c-to-c @50yards off of my steady stix (which is typical with the better boolit designs).

I don't always have my calipers with me when target shooting, but my best measured 50 yard group was 3 shots .45inch c-to-c off my steady stix using Springfield Slims .45Slim design.

You will need a chronograph to dial-in your rifle for best efficiency. Keep the muzzle about 10 feet away from the chrony to assist in getting accurate readings, as the air blast can mess-up your readings.

Most of the stuff sold as "airgun boolits" are really just regular firearm boolits cast from soft lead. I have personally weighed some heavy hollowpoint commercial "airgun" slugs that had around a 50 grain variance in the batch. Some people just don't understand the meaning of "reject", and will sell anything. These heavy slugs were HP'd with ridiculously deep cavities that went over 3/4's of the way down the boolit so there is no possible way they would expand in a game animal the way a HP boolit is supposed to. Nice gimmick, though.

The Gargoyle air rifle in the picture above (taken in his living room in Colorado) was owned by a friend of mine (the one I went airgun hunting with in Wyoming, and also in Oklahoma for hogs). The Gargoyle shoulders like a dream, and is available with a few different valves that can be easily swapped out by the owner so you can go from a 6-8 shot 300fpe target gun, to a 600fpe behemoth. Kind of like having a few guns in one.
The design has been modified from the original, and is now being manufactured by a different person (who bought the rights to the design). Their web-site is being worked on, but check it out when they are done.

http://gargoyleairgun.com/

Back to the 909. This link should help you go about finding your rifle's best performance. Write EVERYTHING down for future reference: beginning fill pressure, shot string velocities, end fill pressure (helps to establish efficiency), accuracy results, alloy used, diameter used, etc. Being able to reference all that info will come in handy throughout your testing, and should save you a bunch of ammo.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=78281

If you haven't already ordered one, get the foster fitting adapter. The Korean fittings/probe are just ****, and will let you down sooner if not later.

http://www.bgmfairguns.com/otherproducts.html

Play with your rifle for a while, then send it in for a power tune and be amazed at the difference! With a tune, I call the 909 plenty good out to 50 yards for anything in North America up to 200-250lbs (I suggest brain shots on big hogs, though).

Did you get the 909, or the 909S?

[Butcher45]

Almost forgot. This is one of the few designs that is actually airgun specific. I think they were designed specifically for the 909. Everything but the nose profile (WFN) designed by Seth Rowland (aka "BlackHogDown). Mold cut by LBT, and available in four different weights around 240-280(?) grains. Seth sells quality stuff.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/BHDJRsapprox240grains002.jpg

Here is a 50 yard group shot with the 240grain version....bad to the bone!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/Oct9001.jpg

[HollowPoint]

Hey Bucther;

Thanks for your input. I've read some of your other post and have gotten alot out of them.

Being chronically cheap by nature I tend to want to make alot of my own stuff; including bullets. That's what lead me to post my initial inquiry about finding some optimal bullet designs for my newly acquired 909S.

I recently inquired about those foster filler adapters as well. The guy emailed me back to let me know they still had some in stock.

I'd seen closeup pics of the factory probe on these rifles and came to the conclusion that they might very well be weak-links in the design of this rifle. Who has the cheapest prices on the female ends of these adapters?

I feel like a little kid at Christmas time. And you know what's funny. I have yet to by the pump to charge it with. All I have is the gun to look at. It's kind of like getting the latest electronic toy as a present but there were no batteries included.

This will give me some time to take it apart and see what makes it tick.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

The little screw that holds the cocking lever on has a bad habit of comeing lose and then the lever breaks . Take it out and either put some teflon tap on it or some medium lock tight and check it from time to time .

Just broke my fourth or fifth cocking lever last Weds. The teflon tape helped keep the screw in, but the metal it is made from is just cheap. Getting a nice cocking lever fabricated from quality steel would be a good idea.

[Butcher45]

Buy the HillPump. It is reputed to be the highest quality handpump on the market, and has re-build kits readily available for it. I hear a lot of horror stories about other pumps having very short lives.

I get my fittings here.

http://www.hamcontact.com/airgun/HoseAssembly/

[Butcher45]

This will help you out with tearing it down.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/414006/message/1148015877/I+choose+to+answer+here%2C%28and+a+pic%29

[Butcher45]

In Phoenix or Indio, 110* F is almost sweater weather. :)

What kind of ballistics are yielded by the roundballs from the PCP rifles?

The stock SamYang 909 throws roundball at around 750fps. A tuned 909 throws them anywhere from 880-900+fps.

The Gargoyle (IMO the best thing running in bigbore airguns) with the standard valve throws roundball at around 1020-1050fps I believe.

Unlike all the other domestic bigbore .45 airguns, the Gargoyle has no waiting list/luck of the draw, and can be ordered TODAY.

[JIMinPHX]

Who are the other domestic big bore manufacturers?

[Butcher45]

Who are the other domestic big bore manufacturers?

Dennis Quackenbush (good luck getting on that list....can take 5 years before you get lucky enough, if you get lucky enough).

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

Gary Barnes (the airgun version of the fantasy knife.......very long wait and VERY SPENDY!).

http://www.glbarnes.com/index2.html

There are one or two others, but the quality has either proven to be.....uhmmm.....let's say "non-existent", or has yet to be proven.

The guy producing the Gargoyle is very serious about meeting the demand.

[SharpsShooter]

Here is a airgun specific design I did for the 50 caliber Dragonslayer.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/whitworth.jpg
Very accurate

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/275grPellet.jpg

SS

[JIMinPHX]

Here is a airgun specific design I did for the 50 caliber Dragonslayer.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/whitworth.jpg
Very accurate

Is that just a plain flat base?

[HollowPoint]

I finally got a chance to take this Air Rifle apart this morning. I went as far as I could before running into an issue of not having the right screw driver to remove the main valve.

I took a few pics but I'll have to run them through my photo editing software in order to make them presentable.

Once you have it apart and laying in pieces on your work bench it's easy to see that this is not a complicated gun.

While I had it apart I slugged the barrel. Boy, you guys weren't kidding when you said this air rifle had real shallow rifling. I used a lead fishing sinker that slugged out to .455.5.

I guess I'll try some projectiles in the .457 range after I've used up the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try.

I'll try to post those pics a little later.

HollowPoint

[SharpsShooter]

Is that just a plain flat base?

Yes it is. Notice the narrow driving bands. The idea was to reduce the friction coefficient but yet still have enough to impart spin via the rifling. .

SS

[SharpsShooter]

I used a lead fishing sinker that slugged out to .455.5.

I guess I'll try some projectiles in the .457 range after I've used up the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try.

I'll try to post those pics a little later.

HollowPoint

If you use 457" in a .455 airgun bore keep in mind that it is easy to stick a pellet due to the lack of propellant energy. We have found that bore diameter is perfect and recovered slugs did bump up slightly. The increased friction of an oversize slug is a handicap to velocity.


SS

[HollowPoint]

SharpShooter:

If you haven't already, take a look at post 29 and 30. These are some test bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try out.

They measure .4535 and they are a little harder that straight stick-on wheel weights. In your estimation, and due to the fact that they have the tail ends hollowed out, do you think they'll bump-up to form a tight seal and get a good spin going while still not imparting too much drag?

I'm going to shoot them either way. I was just wondering since these air rifles just put out a set amount of air pressure and no more, it seems like an absolute balance between BHN, Drag in the bore and bullet weight in order to get consistent fps and fpe is imperative. At least that's what it seem like from reading some of the post I've come across.

I don't want it to get to the point where it becomes drudgery. I bought it to have fun with it. I figured I'd try to track down one light weight bullet and one not-so-light just to have most of my bases covered.

As I stated before, I just bought this gun to hunt coyotes if the AZ game and fish dept. will make that legal; otherwise it will be strictly a rabbit and target gun.

I won't worry about hunting anything bigger than that or shooting heavy bullets until long after I've become more acquainted with this PCP.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Yes it is. Notice the narrow driving bands. The idea was to reduce the friction coefficient but yet still have enough to impart spin via the rifling. .

SS

That's the way to do it with the air rifle slugs. Narrow driving bands allow harder alloys to more easily maintain their velocities. That's why most firearm designs shoot best when cast in very, very soft lead: less drag on most boolits over-abundance of contact area.

That's why I've always been fascinated with the EPP/UG design. El Paso Pete probably didn't even know .45caliber airguns even existed, yet the EPP/UG looks just like an airgun specific, tailor-made lightweight airgun projectile to me.

I would like to see a longer EPP/UG, with the lube-groove made shallow for extra weight, with a good-sized meplat on it.

We need to get about 15-20 boolit casters with 909 guns together, and start putting on some very interesting group buys. These projectiles are in the pioneering stage....quite an opportunity.



I finally got a chance to take this Air Rifle apart this morning. I went as far as I could before running into an issue of not having the right screw driver to remove the main valve.

I took a few pics but I'll have to run them through my photo editing software in order to make them presentable.

Once you have it apart and laying in pieces on your work bench it's easy to see that this is not a complicated gun.

While I had it apart I slugged the barrel. Boy, you guys weren't kidding when you said this air rifle had real shallow rifling. I used a lead fishing sinker that slugged out to .455.5.

I guess I'll try some projectiles in the .457 range after I've used up the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me to try.

I'll try to post those pics a little later.

HollowPoint

Yea, down to the valve is as far as I have gotten on mine, too.

While you have it torn down, get some pure silicone grease (from a dive shop) and lightly go over the o-rings. I hear the factory tends to send them out dry, resulting in shorter o-ring life. Especially the o-rings in the breech, as it should help them bump-up under pressure.

It's a beautifully basic rifle, isn't it? I dare say the design reminds of the pure simplicity, and functionality if the Colt 1911A1. Even Gary Barnes has recently began emulating the breech-sleeve design....incorporating it into his own air rifles.

Did you happen to notice a choke at the end of your muzzle? I've always wanted to slug my barrel both all the way thru from the breech out the muzzle, and also from the breech, half-way up the barrel, and back out the breech again to establish the difference between the choke and the rest of the barrel. Just haven't gotten around to that yet. I always thought it was around .4555-.456 due to that size boolit performing so well in them.

.457 roundball and boolits work great in mine. I suggest shooting the .457 roundball with a 3000psi fill first, to establish a baseline. Then try 2900psi, then 2800psi, etc on the following strings. This is where the chrony testing is important to make the best use of your air (especially hard-earned hand-pump air hahaha), the best accuracy, and the best velocity thru-out your shot string. Sometimes just 50psi difference in fill pressure can make a respectable difference.

.457 roundball almost always shoots well. Not the absolute best accuracy, but decent, and a great baseline for accuracy comparison at 50 yards. If your boolits don't group as good or better than your roundball, then the search for the ideal boolit continues!

[Butcher45]

If you use 457" in a .455 airgun bore keep in mind that it is easy to stick a pellet due to the lack of propellant energy.
SS

Not in a 909 barrel. Not unless the boolit is WAY harder than necessary.

I'd agree that's possible/probable if we were talking about a different type of airgun barrel that has relatively deep rifling, but I have shot PLENTY of .457-.458/un-sized stuff anywhere from pure lead to 50/50 WW-PB to 20:1 thru my tuned 909, and also my buddies stock 909. NEVER in several thousand rounds have I stuck a boolit. Get much harder than wheel-weight in alloy, then it might be a different story...... I've never bothered with anything much harder than BHN10 or so.

I did technically stick one, but it was from the valve mal-functioning due to having neglected it in the Oklahoma humidity (bad rust/corrosion). That boolit was BHN9-10 or so, and sized .454 so diameter obviously wasn't a factor. I just cocked the rifle and shot again to clear it.

HollowPoint, do you have the single airtube, or the 2tube version?

[SharpsShooter]

Not in a 909 barrel. Not unless the boolit is WAY harder than necessary.

I'd agree that's possible/probable if we were talking about a different type of airgun barrel that has relatively deep rifling, but I have shot PLENTY of .457-.458/un-sized stuff anywhere from pure lead to 50/50 WW-PB to 20:1 thru my tuned 909, and also my buddies stock 909. NEVER in several thousand rounds have I stuck a boolit. Get much harder than wheel-weight in alloy, then it might be a different story...... I've never bothered with anything much harder than BHN10 or so.

I did technically stick one, but it was from the valve mal-functioning due to having neglected it in the Oklahoma humidity (bad rust/corrosion). That boolit was BHN9-10 or so, and sized .454 so diameter obviously wasn't a factor. I just cocked the rifle and shot again to clear it.

HollowPoint, do you have the single airtube, or the 2tube version?

My concern was directly related possibility of him purchasing like Laser Cast or other hard cast commercial product. Fodder of that sort is not a good idea.


SS

[Butcher45]

My concern was directly related possibility of him purchasing like Laser Cast or other hard cast commercial product. Fodder of that sort is not a good idea.


SS


Yea any harder than BHN 10 or so seems to completely un-necessary.

MelloRoadman actually went and got a BHN tester, gathered a few different types of alloy, and did some fairly comprehensive testing on the effects of several different alloy combinations/hardnesses in increments of about 3BHN, and the affect boolit hardness had on velocity. I think he got up to around BHN22 before getting boolits stuck in one of his barrels, which was pretty much one of the end-goals of his testing (how hard a boolit can be shot without getting it stuck in the barrel?). He was prepared with what he needed to get it out. I think he has done this type of testing with three different air rifles/calibers..........good info to have.

Maybe MelloRoadman will share that testing with us here on the forum. It's very interesting stuff.

We airgunners have only 3000-4000psi of pressure to work with, compared to a "powder-burners'" (as us airgunners call firearms) 10's of thousands of psi. I'm just amazed at what 3800-4000psi can do out of a Gargoyle. In comparison, a .45Colt would have to be considered a "fairly warm" load to equal a Gargoyle using the extra power valve shooting those 360 grain slugs at around 875+fps! Seems like Elk hunting territory to me. Using a 360grain boolit with a fat meplat, and taking a broadside heart/lung shot at under 50 yards......wouldn't that do the trick?

[HollowPoint]

I tried to make my photos of this dismantling project as presentable as possible but, I made the mistake of taking these photos of black gun parts on top of a white work bench.

The "white balance" on my camera was way off so rather than spending alot of time trying to salvage mediocre images I just deleted most of them.

I did manage to tweek the two photos I took of the shallow rifling. Hardly the greatest images but it gives you an idea what was meant when it was referred to a "shallow."

[Butcher45]

Nice shot of the rifling!

I have a feeling that barrel life on these bigbores is going to be pretty darn long, shooting these relatively soft alloys at sub-sonic velocities and all. I've got 3000+ rounds through my 909 barrel, and only clean the barrel once in a blue moon when I happen to be taking the rifle apart. The barrel is holding up well.

[JIMinPHX]

I finally got a chance to take this Air Rifle apart this morning. I went as far as I could before running into an issue of not having the right screw driver to remove the main valve.


What kind do you need? I have a pretty good selection in the shop.

Also, if you need some of the silicone grease that butcher45 was talking about, I have some. Mine came from Grainger. Off the top of my head, I think that it is Dow Corning #111. Whatever it is, it's the exact stuff that Luxfer recommends for use on their scuba tank O-rings. I got it back when I was used to do scuba tank inspections.

[SharpsShooter]

Yea any harder than BHN 10 or so seems to completely un-necessary.

MelloRoadman actually went and got a BHN tester, gathered a few different types of alloy, and did some fairly comprehensive testing on the effects of several different alloy combinations/hardnesses in increments of about 3BHN, and the affect boolit hardness had on velocity. I think he got up to around BHN22 before getting boolits stuck in one of his barrels,

I'm surprised he made it to 22BNH without a stoppage



Maybe MelloRoadman will share that testing with us here on the forum. It's very interesting stuff.

Yes it would be interesting, but only if he used the same boolit design, throughout the testing of each caliber



We airgunners have only 3000-4000psi of pressure to work with, compared to a "powder-burners'" (as us airgunners call firearms) 10's of thousands of psi. I'm just amazed at what 3800-4000psi can do out of a Gargoyle. In comparison, a .45Colt would have to be considered a "fairly warm" load to equal a Gargoyle using the extra power valve shooting those 360 grain slugs at around 875+fps! Seems like Elk hunting territory to me. Using a 360grain boolit with a fat meplat, and taking a broadside heart/lung shot at under 50 yards......wouldn't that do the trick?

I continue to be amazed at the capability of these myself with regard to both accuracy and energy. The Gargoyle has taken one whitetail deer at this point and it was dead right there with no tracking required Elk should be no issue as I have read of buff being taken and even some africa plains game



SS

[Butcher45]

My friend took part in the first Missouri airgun deer season with his Gargoyle....shot a doe with a 205grain Devastator and she made it only 20 yards or so before dropping. Boolit expanded to around .75 caliber, and was found just under the hide on the off-side. He also used the same boolit to put down another doe that was caught in a fence, and it worked well then, too.

[Grapeshot]

Hey, I just bought a new Korean .45 caliber air rifle. My reason for posting here is to ask some of you more experienced bullet designer guys for some input on an optimum bullet design and weight for this rig.

For those of you who might be inclined to offer up suggestions regarding a good bullet for this set up, could you also offer up some suggestions for optimum .44 bullet shapes and sizes.

Thanks
HollowPoint

I suggest that you invest in a bullet swaging set up to make some hollow based bullets of various weights. With a swaging die and various nose and base punches you could tailor your round to the game you plan to play.

[Butcher45]

I suggest that you invest in a bullet swaging set up to make some hollow based bullets of various weights. With a swaging die and various nose and base punches you could tailor your round to the game you plan to play.

The swaged BuffaloBulletCompany Black Powder Pistol Boolits have a very shallow base with a short, thin "skirt", and shoot well out of my 909.

As for the truer hollow-based designs, I've seen and heard more bad-luck stories than good. From what I understand, swaging might make it tougher to keep the boolit-to-barrel contact area to a minimum.

[HollowPoint]

Hi guys:

Jim; The reason I had to stop dismantling when I did was because in order to remove the main valve I'd need a straight-slot screw driver about 28" long with a tip about 3/4" wide.

Actually the nut that holds the butt in place is the same size but I had a screw driver long enough for that part.

I don't plan on taking it apart again until after I've shot it a few times. Also, I noticed that there was plenty of grease in the air tube itself but the rubber o-rings didn't have much of anything on them. I'll have to tend to that the next time I have it apart.

GrapeShot; A swaging set up would be awsome but, right now I'm just trying to scrape up some spending money to buy a Hand Pump. I'm thinking that a couple of appropriately sized bullet molds would be much easier and cheaper to obtain.

Everything is slowly coming along. I'm trying not to get ahead of myself with this new toy. I should have my Hand Pump by the end of next week, I've got some test bullets and a bunch of Devastator home made bullets ready to go.

Right now I'm getting ready to order one of those forster fill probe adapters and the corresponding female quick connect fitting.

Before I take it out for the first time I plan on changing out the existing iron sights to a set of peep sights. Without this change I might as well not even waste my time.

My eyes are such that I require peep sights just to be able to see the sights. Peep sights help increase my depth of field. I have a few scopes lying around but, since this is mainly a close up hunting rifle I want to keep it as bare-bones as possible.

HollowPoint

[JIMinPHX]

Hi guys:

Jim; The reason I had to stop dismantling when I did was because in order to remove the main valve I'd need a straight-slot screw driver about 28" long with a tip about 3/4" wide.


I can rig that up. Let me know when you're ready & I'll cut one for you. I'd love to see a picture of that thing from the inside.

Also, I sent an envelope out to you today with the transfer adhesive we discussed & a small plastic bag with some of that Dow Corning #111 silicone lube for your O-rings.

[Butcher45]

Anyone feel like fabricating some nice cocking levers for these 909 guns? I'm tired of snappin' them in half........need one that will last forever.



http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/CockingLever001.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/CockingLever002.jpg

[PatMarlin]

You got a pic of it on the rifle? Does it just pull straight back?

How does it work?

[PatMarlin]

It looks like it's cast.

[Butcher45]

You got a pic of it on the rifle? Does it just pull straight back?

How does it work?


Yep, pulls straight back. The lever slides into a channel that is cut-out in the hammer, and is secured by the screw. Shown inside the receiver here. You can see how the back of the lever goes up against the back of the "channel" in the hammer.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/Thickwoods007.jpg

[PatMarlin]

Well since it rides in that slot, that's probably why it has no support in corner where it breaks. It looks like cheap cast forged metal.

I would think it needs to be machined out of a block out of strong steel to make that laid back "L" shape. You could even weld a handle on it. Is there a lot of pressure on the pull back?

[PatMarlin]

Also instead of pulling high at a 90 dregree angle like it does, I would think it would be better to have a handle pull lower and set back farther. That would keep the forces more inline, instead of pulling at the 90 degrees right over the area that breaks.

[Butcher45]

Well since it rides in that slot, that's probably why it has no support in corner where it breaks. It looks like cheap cast forged metal.

I would think it needs to be machined out of a block out of strong steel to make that laid back "L" shape. You could even weld a handle on it. Is there a lot of pressure on the pull back?

Yes there isn't much support for the lever. The lever is very, very cheap.

Can't weld the lever to the hammer; it needs to be removable in order to dis-assemble the rifle.

[Butcher45]

Also instead of pulling high at a 90 dregree angle like it does, I would think it would be better to have a handle pull lower and set back farther. That would keep the forces more inline, instead of pulling at the 90 degrees right over the area that breaks.


Should any proto-types be made available, I'd happily test them out:mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

Is that lever assembly that broke all one peice?

[Butcher45]

Is that lever assembly that broke all one peice?

Yes. The part that seats into the slot is about 3/4 inches long, 1/4 inch wide and 1/8 inch thick. The handle part is 1 3/4 inchs long.

[PatMarlin]

Here's a rough idea of what I'm thinking of:



http://www.patmarlins.com/Lever.jpg

[Butcher45]

Here's a rough idea of what I'm thinking of:



http://www.patmarlins.com/Lever.jpg


This should help show the parameters of the design. The surface of the hammer is a bit less than 3/8 inch from the surface of the receiver.

Un-cocked position

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/CockingLever003.jpg


Cocked to low-power position

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/CockingLever004.jpg


Cocked to high-power position

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/CockingLever005.jpg

[HollowPoint]

This is something I've been thinking about as well. I haven't broken my cocking latch but, it does appear to be a weak link in the system.

If I get some time this evening I'll show you the drawing I'm been working on as a replacement of the cocking handle. I't's really nothing complicated.

My idea wasn't all that different than Pats'. It would require a slightly longer retaining screw though.

My idea was that a slightly sturdier cocking lever would also add mass to the cylinder that hits and opens the air release valve.

Of course this may slow your lock-time just a hair but, with the heavier cocking lever you could now replace the cocking spring with a slightly stronger spring to compensate and hopefully you'll end up with slightly better performance for your troubles.

HollowPoint

[scrapcan]

It looks to me like you need to send a broken one to Pat and let him make prototype in the spare time that he does not have. I think his idea of moving the pull point back is a sound idea to start if it doe snot interfere at the end of the bolt stroke.

also if there is no interference I would put a fillet on the front upper side of the handle to mount plate as it will be stronger and not give a point of entry for the crack to start.

[PatMarlin]

It would not have to be near as long as in my drawing, and the height would be the same as your bolt. I wish I had my CNC mill up and online. I could knock one of those out pretty fast.

[HollowPoint]

Strengthening one of these cocking lever does look like it would be easy going with a CNC machine.

Here's a couple pics I took of my factory cocking lever. The profile view shows the inherent weakness of these levers; especially since it made of cheap cast alloy of some sort.

Another down side to this design is the fact that when the lever is pulled back, it has the tendency of tilting the cylinder out of alignment so that it doesn't allow this same cylinder to slide straight back as smoothly as it should into the cocked position.

If these pics load the way their supposed to it should include an image that depicts the idea I had in mind as a replacement for the existing cocking lever. I started out with a lever idea that looked similar to the existing cocking lever but after looking at Pat Marlin's drawing I kind of like it better (along with the logic behind it) so I changed mine a little.

It's nothing to radically different; just a little chunkier to mitigate the chance of breakage.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Still wondering if you got a 909, or a 909S.

I did send out these 909 tuning instructions I received from a guy on the Yellow way back when, to a guy I don't know from another forum. He says that he found them useful.

"If you slot the sides of the valve body, ad weight to the hammer, open the transfer port to .360, open the .24 restriction where the barrel slides over the receiver as much as possible you get an even 300fpe with 200g ammo."

Keep in mind, that Sam Yang at some point started using a narrower transfer port, and possibly a different valve sometime along the way.

Here are his responses over a period of time. He was tuning a 909S.

Hey,

I'm about ready with my tuning project!

There were problems along the way, but they are fixed. I had to cast (of chemical metal) strengthening to the end of transfer port (to that ending part which goes into the barrel) because it fell off when I was drilling it to 9 mm.

I think my gun is from newer edition and has smaller walls for its transfer port, but I managed to make enough room to get the port to the ultimate 9 millimeters. Some parts I first drilled to 8 mm and then ground manually to somewhat 9 mm, afterwards. It was quite a job... I also polished the transfer port pretty shiny and made all the curves smoother.


I also drilled the valve body to 9 millimeters. 9 mm is the maximum also there, because the valve (which is made out of plastic) is 12 millimeters with its brass coating/jacket; the plastic part is the gasket and holds the pressure, though the brass jacket could not hold the pressure: the system would probably leak, if one goes over that critical 9 millimeters.



The hammer and hammer spring are still original and in process (if I happen to do something with them).

It will be hard to put more weight to the hammer, because then I must make some modifications to the spring or other parts (because: just like with transferport, there are built in limits in hammer, spring and valve trinity, namely, not too much room for modifications). For example, if I'd grow the length of hammer, I should cut the hammer spring shorter or the whole thing grows out of picture and keeps the main valve open when in rest. It's pretty much the way... if you add with one hand, you must take with the other...


You remember my 909S tuning process...?

I think it's about ready, finally. I chronographed that strange 909, and got pretty fine numbers: 785 feet per second with 300 grainer slug, 405 FPE. And what the best I could get three shots with almost the same numbers. With 400 grainer I could get even better numbers, but that bigger slug is not as accurate as the 300 grainer...

Details of the gun:

Transfer ports are at least 8 mm everywhere (somewhere it's over 9 millimeter), ports are grinded mirror-smooth, valvebody is 9 millimeter, and there's stronger hammer spring. I had to make new bushings to the transfer port all along the way from valvebody to the barrel.

And, I changed longer barrel (over 30 inches long), it is smoothbore! I have designed special slug with which I could shoot one inch groups 55 yards (50 meters). One reason for smoothbore is that I could shoot shots with it, because I live in the town and near the town it's better to shoot shots only (and hunt small pests), slugs could be shot far in the forrest only...

[HollowPoint]

I came across those same instruction a while back and down loaded them just in case I decide to try this on my own. It doesn't seem to difficult.

Initially I didn't understand what alot of the reference numbers were about but, having taken the gun apart it now make alot more sense to me.

I think I'm going to go with the stronger/heavier cocking lever and cocking spring for starters. While I had it laid out on my bench the other day it just looks like those two modifications alone will be enough to give me a slight increase in performance without alot -no turning back- of alterations.

If these two small changes don't do enough for me then I'll seriously consider the mods listed in those instructions.

Do you happen to know what the exact size and compression strength the cocking-spring is?

I finished up my work early today so I took that extra time I had and installed the receiver mounted peep sight I mentioned in one of my other posts. Nothing fancy, just functional. I milled down the front and rear factory sights and dove-tailed the front for a "Globe Front Sight."

If I get some more free time next week I'll start on the heavier cocking lever then move on to replacing the spring. I think I've figured out an easy way to add a little more mass to the cylinder that impacts and opens the air valve; and it doesn't require any alterations.

More to come. Oh yea, I forgot to mention; my 909 is the one with the single air reservoir. I think it's the 909S.

HollowPoint

[melloairman]

I spoke to LI Bob about this problem a week or two ago . He said he machined the lever to except a cap allen screw and milled the lever grove to except it. . But on a gun with a really heavy spring he has removed the lever and back were the nob would normally be he has drilled and taped the hammer to take a large diameter bolt handle . But he said that it had to be exactly centered or the gun would not choch and hold . Hope this might help . I have thought about haveing something done with this as well . Marvin

[Butcher45]

I came across those same instruction a while back and down loaded them just in case I decide to try this on my own. It doesn't seem to difficult.

Initially I didn't understand what alot of the reference numbers were about but, having taken the gun apart it now make alot more sense to me.

I think I'm going to go with the stronger/heavier cocking lever and cocking spring for starters. While I had it laid out on my bench the other day it just looks like those two modifications alone will be enough to give me a slight increase in performance without alot -no turning back- of alterations.

If these two small changes don't do enough for me then I'll seriously consider the mods listed in those instructions.

Do you happen to know what the exact size and compression strength the cocking-spring is?

I finished up my work early today so I took that extra time I had and installed the receiver mounted peep sight I mentioned in one of my other posts. Nothing fancy, just functional. I milled down the front and rear factory sights and dove-tailed the front for a "Globe Front Sight."

If I get some more free time next week I'll start on the heavier cocking lever then move on to replacing the spring. I think I've figured out an easy way to add a little more mass to the cylinder that impacts and opens the air valve; and it doesn't require any alterations.

More to come. Oh yea, I forgot to mention; my 909 is the one with the single air reservoir. I think it's the 909S.

HollowPoint

The 909S is nothing to sneeze at out of the box. A 248grainer goes about 665fps, and a 305grainer about 616fps from what I'm told.

One way to add some weight to the hammer is to put a .45 or .50caliber roundball between your spring and the inside of the hammer. I think that the spring would have to be shorter than the stock one, though (not enough room to avoid binding-up the spring).

Looking forward to seeing the results of your mods. The best tunes I have seen with these rifles, used the stock spring (maybe just tweaked a little?). Porting, polishing, and mods to the valve/valve springs work seem to be where it's at.

The 909S has be tuned for some crazy power by BGMF.......as reported by a customer of his (only go by customer claims in the airgun-tuning business) using a 3000psi fill: 718fps with a 305grainer, 780fps with a 248grainer, 816fps with a 220grainer, 825fps with a 205grainer, 718fps with a 305grainer, 633fps with a 415grainer!

Those numbers are all the first shot; the second shot is usually about 40-50fps slower with a 909S. It is tricky to find the boolit/fill pressure combination that will give you two identical shots for the same POI@50yards with that rifle but I am sure it can be done.

[Butcher45]

I spoke to LI Bob about this problem a week or two ago . He said he machined the lever to except a cap allen screw and milled the lever grove to except it. . But on a gun with a really heavy spring he has removed the lever and back were the nob would normally be he has drilled and taped the hammer to take a large diameter bolt handle . But he said that it had to be exactly centered or the gun would not choch and hold . Hope this might help . I have thought about haveing something done with this as well . Marvin


I like what I see in PatMarlins sketch. I always thought off-setting the lever behind the hammer is the way to go. Seems like the simple solution.
I'm not worried about the screw coming loose anymore since I started using the teflon tape around it awhile back.....just the crazy-cheap lever material. The screw was still in tight on this last breakage.

[JIMinPHX]

It is tricky to find the boolit/fill pressure combination that will give you two identical shots for the same POI@50yards

Has anyone ever tried building a rifle with twin air tanks, so that you can get 2 true 3,000psi shots?

[Butcher45]

Has anyone ever tried building a rifle with twin air tanks, so that you can get 2 true 3,000psi shots?


You can get tights fps variances off of one air reservoir regardless of dropping psi levels....it's all about the valve, and having a large enough air capacity in the reservoir. I can get several boolit designs to shoot four shot strings within a maximum 20fps total variance (sometimes only 7fps or so in a string). The 909S has a larger valve than the 909 which makes for more power, but a smaller air reservoir so there are less shots available. Having a large air reservoir makes getting tight fps variances within a shot string much easier.

Here are some links to some comprehensive testing/shooting with my tuned 2tube 909.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76446

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=78281

[HollowPoint]

I've wondered about some of the fps numbers posted around the internet; even on the "Tuned" Big Bores.

I realize that we're talking about an air reservoir that reduces in psi after every shot so, it stands to reason that the fps numbers would go down in more of a linear way. What I mean is; as an example; each shot dumps 200 psi. So, this would mean that your shots would slow down incrementally because there is less air in the reservoir to draw from.

Some of the numbers I've seen will start at a certain level, (generally the highest fps in the shot string) then the next shot may be a little higher than the first, then back down, then a couple shots higher still. It's rather erratic to say the least.

I can see why this might happen with traditional firearms where there are many components such as brass, powder, primers, seating depth, runout, reloading inconsistencies etc.. In an airgun, where an air valve should open up to or near the same amount each time the trigger is pulled, such a fluctuation in fps just doesn't add up.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it has to do not with the function of the valve, trigger, hammer or spring but, it's the position of the projectile in the chamber at each shot.

When we load a bullet into the chamber, is it pushed all the way in to the same spot in the chamber each time? With round ball especially; it can be a good fit in the bore but, while in the chamber -which is generally a looser fit- if it moves even a little bit it's bound to effect the fps as well as accuracy.

Now, I know that there are some that will argue that they've been getting fairly good consistency and accuracy from their air guns by just loading a bullet in the chamber without fiddling with the exact position of their projectile in the chamber but, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

If they're getting good accuracy that way; good. That's better than good but, I'm talking about the up and down variance of the fps numbers. Up where you wouldn't expect them to be and down where you'd expect slightly higher numbers.

I admit there are alot of variables that I'm not taking into consideration with these observations about fps but, what do you guys think?

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

I've wondered about some of the fps numbers posted around the internet; even on the "Tuned" Big Bores.

I realize that we're talking about an air reservoir that reduces in psi after every shot so, it stands to reason that the fps numbers would go down in more of a linear way. What I mean is; as an example; each shot dumps 200 psi. So, this would mean that your shots would slow down incrementally because there is less air in the reservoir to draw from.

Some of the numbers I've seen will start at a certain level, (generally the highest fps in the shot string) then the next shot may be a little higher than the first, then back down, then a couple shots higher still. It's rather erratic to say the least.

I can see why this might happen with traditional firearms where there are many components such as brass, powder, primers, seating depth, runout, reloading inconsistencies etc.. In an airgun, where an air valve should open up to or near the same amount each time the trigger is pulled, such a fluctuation in fps just doesn't add up.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it has to do not with the function of the valve, trigger, hammer or spring but, it's the position of the projectile in the chamber at each shot.

When we load a bullet into the chamber, is it pushed all the way in to the same spot in the chamber each time? With round ball especially; it can be a good fit in the bore but, while in the chamber -which is generally a looser fit- if it moves even a little bit it's bound to effect the fps as well as accuracy.

Now, I know that there are some that will argue that they've been getting fairly good consistency and accuracy from their air guns by just loading a bullet in the chamber without fiddling with the exact position of their projectile in the chamber but, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

If they're getting good accuracy that way; good. That's better than good but, I'm talking about the up and down variance of the fps numbers. Up where you wouldn't expect them to be and down where you'd expect slightly higher numbers.

I admit there are alot of variables that I'm not taking into consideration with these observations about fps but, what do you guys think?

HollowPoint

I myself seat the projectile against the rifling the exact same way with each projectile.

I'm no pneamatic expert by any stretch, but I've done enough testing to know that I can get four or five shots without a significant velocity drop, and the pressure in the reservoir drops from 3000psi to 2500 after 3 shots. It doesn't sound right, but that's just how it is. A large reservoir helps a lot.

You should see some of the strings the non-regulated smallbores get......Sometimes as little as 10fps max variances for 50-80+shots!

I'll write more later....got to get some work done. Here are some numbers from my friends stock 909 with 3000[psi fills. Check out that 245grain REAL string!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/EnergyChart-1.gif

[HollowPoint]

What does the "REALS" bullet look like? I don't remember ever hearing about that particular design. It would be interesting to see what it looks like.

I'd like to know about any similarities this "REALS" bullet and the EPP/UG's have in common. It looks as though there are some bullet designs that really outshine all the others when shot from one of these Big Bores.

I'm wondering if a bore-rider style cast bullet would do well in my 909? I've been playing around with some drawings of a bullet design using the measurements I got when I slugged my barrel.

If I get enough free time I might just get brave enough to try to make me a Gun-Specific bullet mold in the bore-rider style. If not, I'll just put it in my Idea-Folder along with all the other drawings and ideas I've had in the past that most likely won't come to pass.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

What does the "REALS" bullet look like? I don't remember ever hearing about that particular design. It would be interesting to see what it looks like.

I'd like to know about any similarities this "REALS" bullet and the EPP/UG's have in common. It looks as though there are some bullet designs that really outshine all the others when shot from one of these Big Bores.

I'm wondering if a bore-rider style cast bullet would do well in my 909? I've been playing around with some drawings of a bullet design using the measurements I got when I slugged my barrel.

If I get enough free time I might just get brave enough to try to make me a Gun-Specific bullet mold in the bore-rider style. If not, I'll just put it in my Idea-Folder along with all the other drawings and ideas I've had in the past that most likely won't come to pass.

HollowPoint

The R.E.A.L. is a muzzle-loader design......I think it stands for "rifling engaged at loading" or something like that. The similarities to the EPP/UG are very small contact area with the barrel, bore-riding qualities, and an angled/tapering top band (I think this may be key for proper boolit alignment).

The EPP/UG has a bore-riding heel, and on the REAL boolit all the bands are smaller than the top one (not sure if they get smaller and smaller towards the base as my calipers batteries are dead). The REAL is available in approx. 200grains, and 250grains, and seems to work great in a 909 for most that try it.....wish it had a large meplat, though.

Maxi-Balls also have bands that get smaller from top to bottom (I want to say, .457/.455/.450 but I can't remember exactly...some copies have a .455 top band though), and almost always shoot very well.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/CockingLever.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5811.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5556.jpg

[HollowPoint]

Those cast bullets look real interesting. They seem to have alot in common.

I wonder what made them decide on such a very small bullet shank diameter rather than going with a bullet shank say about .440 or .450?

If these lead slugs bump-up a little when fired -like those in traditional firearms- a diameter of .440 should still clear the bore while letting the larger diameter parts of the slug catch the rifling to get enough gas seal and impart spin.

I notice that neither one of these bullets have their tail ends hollowed out .

I finished work early to day so I looked around my stash of metal stock to see if I had anything I could use to make up a new cocking lever. I didn't have any steel that was thick enough so just for spits-N-giggles I tried making one out of solid aluminum stock.

I see now why the factory cocking lever is made as thin as it is. It's almost impossible to get it into place otherwise.

If you make one up that resembles the design that Pat Marlins drew up (or the one I drew up as well) you won't be able to tilt it back enough to get it into the slightly larger slot opening at the forward part of that cocking slot.

I had to alter the base a little to get it in. If you look at the cocking lever I made from the underside, it resembles the outline of a guitar. It's the only way I could get this particular attempt at a replacement cocking handle to go in.

This attempt gave me a little bit of a lesson. I think the next one will be a little more refined.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

I see now why the factory cocking lever is made as thin as it is. It's almost impossible to get it into place otherwise.

If you make one up that resembles the design that Pat Marlins drew up (or the one I drew up as well) you won't be able to tilt it back enough to get it into the slightly larger slot opening at the forward part of that cocking slot.

HollowPoint

Did you try using a phillips head screwdriver to cock the hammer back, before installing the new lever? A lot more room to work with that way.

[HollowPoint]

Did you try using a phillips head screwdriver to cock the hammer back, before installing the new lever? A lot more room to work with that way.

Yes I did cock it all the way back.

When you install the factory cocking lever (even when you cock the lever back) you still have to tilt the cocking lever backwards a little to get it to slide into position; at least on my gun anyways.

If you make your replacement cocking lever so that it extends back a little farther, (as depicted in the concept drawings) that little bit of rearward extension will not allow you tilt the new lever back far enough to insert it into its slot quite as easily.

The one I made up was kind of low profiled near its base. I suppose if I had made it stand a little farther away from the side of the receiver it may have cleared a little easier but then it would have looked out of proportion and prone to snagging brush while in the field.

Next time I'll now better. I'll have to keep my eyes open for some scrap steel I can use. I think this aluminum lever should hold pretty well but, I'd rather have a steel one instead.

HollowPoint

[BCall]

I've wondered about some of the fps numbers posted around the internet; even on the "Tuned" Big Bores.

I realize that we're talking about an air reservoir that reduces in psi after every shot so, it stands to reason that the fps numbers would go down in more of a linear way. What I mean is; as an example; each shot dumps 200 psi. So, this would mean that your shots would slow down incrementally because there is less air in the reservoir to draw from.

Some of the numbers I've seen will start at a certain level, (generally the highest fps in the shot string) then the next shot may be a little higher than the first, then back down, then a couple shots higher still. It's rather erratic to say the least.

I can see why this might happen with traditional firearms where there are many components such as brass, powder, primers, seating depth, runout, reloading inconsistencies etc.. In an airgun, where an air valve should open up to or near the same amount each time the trigger is pulled, such a fluctuation in fps just doesn't add up.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it has to do not with the function of the valve, trigger, hammer or spring but, it's the position of the projectile in the chamber at each shot.

When we load a bullet into the chamber, is it pushed all the way in to the same spot in the chamber each time? With round ball especially; it can be a good fit in the bore but, while in the chamber -which is generally a looser fit- if it moves even a little bit it's bound to effect the fps as well as accuracy.

Now, I know that there are some that will argue that they've been getting fairly good consistency and accuracy from their air guns by just loading a bullet in the chamber without fiddling with the exact position of their projectile in the chamber but, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

If they're getting good accuracy that way; good. That's better than good but, I'm talking about the up and down variance of the fps numbers. Up where you wouldn't expect them to be and down where you'd expect slightly higher numbers.

I admit there are alot of variables that I'm not taking into consideration with these observations about fps but, what do you guys think?

HollowPoint

The problem is you are thinking about it in a linear fashion, and it just doesn't function like that. You are not taking into consideration the pressure behind the valve.

All of these airguns operate on a simple knock open valve. The hammer hits the valve, causing it to open for a certain amount of time. When the pressure is high, the hammer has a harder time opening the valve because the pressure in the air cylinder is keeping it closed. The hammer hits it, it opens, and a certain amount of air is released. On the second shot, the pressure is lower, so the hammer has an easier time opening the valve, it stays open a little longer, so more air is released. This is why you often see the first shot lower then the second. If you simply lower the max fill pressure, you can see this disappear. On subsequent shots, more air is passed through the valve, so even though it is of lower pressure, more of it flows through, keeping the velocity higher.


Most airgun shooters will find a sweet spot on the fill pressure they use. Especially noticeable in smaller calibers. Starting at 3000 may give you 45 shots within 50 fps or so, but starting at 2900 may give you 35 shots with only a 15 fps variation. Starting lower, going up to max velocity, and falling as pressure falls below the sweet spot. They follow a curve, and by tracking velocity and pressure, you can find your "sweet spot" on the curve that gives you the most shots with the least variation. Then you know you can say- fill to 2850, and 35 shots later, refill.

This may or may not apply directly to bigger bores, but you can see that thinking about it in a linear fashion does not work. Each shot doesn't simply release 200 psi. It just doesn't work that way. Fill pressure alters the valve function, and fill pressure changes with each shot, so you cannot track it in a linear fashion. Plus there is the volume vs pressure function. You can get high velocity without high pressure. The Lewis and Clark air rifle certainly got high velocity, but I gaurantee you that it did not use 3000 psi. They made up for it with volume air flow.

If you are interested, here is a link to a fun book that can help explain some of it.
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Man-Powered-Weapons-Ammunition/dp/1602391475/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280545991&sr=1-3

[Butcher45]

A cocking lever that is off-set, and extends back behind the hammer is certainly do-able. Just needs to be made to fit is all.

[Butcher45]

This may or may not apply directly to bigger bores, but you can see that thinking about it in a linear fashion does not work.

Applies to bigbores, too. I'm talking airguns with non-regulated valves here.

Go above a certain fill pressure, and you can see the velocity of the first shot go down as a result of what is known as "valve lock". Take a 4-shot airgun for example. The idea with the low shot count bigbores is to fill just over this point of valve lock, to where the first shot is only 10 or so fps slower than the next. Ideally, the third shot will be about the same as the second, then the fourth shot is about what the first shot was.

With my 909, I fill to about 3000psi, and after the four shots are up I am down to about 2200-2300psi. The last shot seems to use a bit more psi than any one of the first three, so I often re-fill after only three shots if time is short, and/or I have only my HillPump to fill with (which is overwhelmingly most often the case).

[HollowPoint]

Hi BCall:

Having read your thoughts on this subject, what you're saying appears to make alot of sense. But when I look at the (sometimes erratic) numbers that are posted here and around the internet I have a hard time getting your assessment and the documented numbers I'm reading to come together to make some cohesive sense.

It may be that none of the fps, fpe or fill pressure numbers were as formally studied as we'd like but, enough guys have informally charted these numbers so you would think we would be able to draw some conclusion; even if they were weak and inconclusive conclusions.

The only conclusion I could come up with was the one about the position of the projectile in the chamber.

I checked out that book you recommended. It looks like it might be a good read. I'll have to check out the local used book store and hope I get lucky.

By the way; the 200 PSI I listed in my example was just that; an example. I don't really know how much of the total PSI is used up at each shot. I used that number in order to help me explain the point I was trying to make.

Also; anything I post regarding Big Bore Air guns has to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm a novice Big Bore Air gun owner. I haven't even taken my new Air Rifle out for the first time. Right now I'm having to scrape up some spending money to buy myself a hand pump.

I am unable to shoot it at the moment but, that's not stopping me from setting it up the way I like and finding out as much as I can about it and other Big Bore Air Guns in general. I think when my Hand Pump finally gets here I'm going to be a real happy camper.

Thanks alot for your input.
HollowPoint



Thanks for your input.

[BCall]

Projectile FIT probably has more to do with it than chamber position, but it may play a factor, just not as large of one as you think. There will always be a variation up or down in velocity due to variations in projectile size and weight. Not all of them are going to be the EXACTLY the same, so they will not all act the same when shot. There has been extensive testing done on it. I don't know what numbers you are viewing, but minor variations can alter the tests.

As far as 200 psi, the point I was trying to make was that each shot does not release the same amount of pressure unless you start with the same pressure for each shot. If you repump the rifle to the same amount of pressure for each shot then you will get a linear comparison, but when your fill pressure decreases with each shot, each valve duration is different, so each shot releases a different amount of air. It is impossible for an unregulated system to release the same volume of air for each shot. The amount of PSI used for each shot varies in relation to where it is in the shot string.

You don't have ot take my word for it, there has been extensive testing on the matter. Just like this
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/12/understanding-performancepower-curve-of.html

Notice that his velocity does not go in a linear fashion, but follows a curve. There are some up and down fluctuations, but it still follows the trend. No matter how carefully you place the projectile, you are still dealing with an imperfect machine. You will not be able to stop all the variation, the variables are too great.

Pellet fit will make a difference, as will placement, just remember that unlike a firearm, each shot is different, because the starting point is always changing. If you are finding alot of instances of erratic velocities, I would like to see the links about what they are doing. Billy

[garbear]

Not much to add other then go to your region meetings if AZ has them. We have Regional area conference and the wildlife board members are there to get their butts chewed or praised for there decisions for our hunting regulations. Try get organized or join a air gun hunter organization to make your wants heard. The bow hunters in my state pretty much get what ever they want because they are loud at eh RAC meetings. We predator hunters need to be. Nice gun from what I have heard about them. Good luck
Garbear

[Butcher45]

If you are finding alot of instances of erratic velocities, I would like to see the links about what they are doing. Billy

I am interested in seeing those links as well. They won't be links to my 909 that is for sure. I get very consistent velocities out of mine, and I would venture to say that I have posted more bigbore airgun shot strings, at more fill pressures, with more boolit designs than anyone I know of. I know of others that have a 909 tuned by the same guy, and their numbers are practically identical to mine.

Remember, air capacity is required to get a few consistent shots out of a powerful bigbore. Otherwise velocity will go down, then down some more past shot #2 or so. The numbers you see will be consistent from fill to fill when filled to the same psi unless there is something wrong with the rifle. So if you hop-up your 909S, focus on getting the first two shots as close together as you can. A tuned 909S is a two shot gun with a "finishing" shot or two. That is what the air capacity of the 909S will accommodate.

[HollowPoint]

The numbers you see will be consistent from fill to fill when filled to the same psi unless there is something wrong with the rifle. So if you hop-up your 909S, focus on getting the first two shots as close together as you can. A tuned 909S is a two shot gun with a "finishing" shot or two. That is what the air capacity of the 909S will accommodate..



This sounds a little more down to earth to me. The other statements posted regarding the possible reasons for the ups and downs of velocities also came across as logical as well but, my little pea-brain has alot of trouble with the seeming contradictions the actual numbers tend to pose.

Could just be some kind of dyslexia thing on my part. When one tries too hard to figure something out that can't be figured out, after a while you begin to come across as just a babbling fool.

I'll just leave it alone for now and move on to some other lessons about these Big Bore Air Guns.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

This sounds a little more down to earth to me. The other statements posted regarding the possible reasons for the ups and downs of velocities also came across as logical as well but, my little pea-brain has alot of trouble with the seeming contradictions the actual numbers tend to pose.

Could just be some kind of dyslexia thing on my part. When one tries too hard to figure something out that can't be figured out, after a while you begin to come across as just a babbling fool.

I'll just leave it alone for now and move on to some other lessons about these Big Bore Air Guns.

HollowPoint


That's why I enjoy posting my tests and results with these bigbore airguns so much. It can help save people a lot of time, energy, and boolits doing research shooting.

When a regular Joe like me that doesn't have a broad understanding of pneumatics is left to his own devices, it can take a very long time to get these bigbore airguns figured out. When I got my 909 just 3 years ago, there was almost no information available on how to go about maximizing the usage and performance of the rifle (and I'm not talking about tunes here....just how to best use the dang thing).

No one was posting anything comprehensive about the testing of various boolit diameters, alloy hardness, and repeated accuracy comparisons, fill pressure/shot string optimization testing, etc.

For example, a couple of years ago, it was commonly recommended to fill to a certain pressure, then "throw away/shoot/get rid of/waste the first shot because it was to slow". It wasn't common knowledge to simply use a lower fill pressure to get rid of the slow first shot (sometimes it only takes 50psi difference).

That's why we need more boolit casters involved with these air rifles....boolit casters strike me as the sort that will figure out what works best in a particular airgun as fast, or faster than most anyone! It's an opportunity to pioneer something that is just getting off the ground so to speak, and is rapidly growing in popularity. The testing won't break the bank, because air is free and lead in a boolit trap is recyclable!

For me, understanding the principles of the valve is the toughest thing to grasp. Took a couple years for me to realize particular dynamics I was seeing, and yet I still don't have the understanding to actually explain why these dynamics are happening.

So long as I'm seeing the best results possible out of my 909, and have an understanding of how to go about getting there, I can live with simple "faith" when it comes to all the complicated technicalities as to the "why" part.

Try not to learn everything all at once.....just dial-in a good load and enjoy shooting. Remember that more psi does not always mean more power. I'm a bit burnt-out on all the testing, and ready to just plink and hunt for awhile with just a couple of proven designs that have established optimum shot strings/pressures/accuracy, instead of constantly trying new stuff. After three years, I can finally move on to the more technical explanations, and be able to somewhat relate to them due to the personal experience I have gained.

[HollowPoint]

Try not to learn everything all at once.

Well said. It's time to move on.

Yesterday I tired to tweek my newly made cocking lever on the mill. It wasn't clamped down as tightly as I though so, as soon as the edge of my end mill touched the part it jerked the part forward and proceeded to gouge the bloody-**** out of it.

Oh well; back to the drawing board. I got some good steel flat bar coming. I think that the second time around will be the charm.

Do you know where a guy can get a replacement cocking spring with a slightly stronger compression rating? Also; what is a good way for a do-it-yourselfer to measure the compression strength of the existing spring?

Thanks
HollowPoint

[JIMinPHX]

Just in case you haven't found them yet, there is a real good metal shop across the street from Diablo Stadium. They will sell you 1 foot long hunks of common sizes of steel, brass or aluminum & charge reasonable prices.

[Butcher45]

Do you know where a guy can get a replacement cocking spring with a slightly stronger compression rating? Also; what is a good way for a do-it-yourselfer to measure the compression strength of the existing spring?

Thanks
HollowPoint

I don't know (on both counts).

[JIMinPHX]

McMaster Carr has a pretty good selection of springs. Sometimes you can get lucky at the local Ace Hardware if it happens to be a common size, but they don't carry that much.

To measure the compression strength, you basically apply a known force & measure how much the spring moves, then do a calculation. Depending on how big & strong the spring is, a fishing scale & either a pair of calipers or a tape measure may do it for you.

[HollowPoint]

I checked out the Ace Hardware store down the street from me. That's usually where I get my springs but, this time around they didn't have what I needed.

I got lucky though; a while back I ordered some springs online for another project I was working on. I think it was that "Soft-Pointing-Tool" project. Anyhow, I found one of those springs I hadn't used and it turned out to be pretty close to what I was needing both length-wise and strength-wise. What luck.

As far as the metal I needed for the Cocking Lever I hope to fabricate, I ended up ordering just enough to make two of them. Actually I ordered enough to allow me to screw up the first try and maybe get the second one close to right.

I'm almost there. I got the money for my new Hand Pump. Now I want to change out the existing Fill Probe to one of the Foster type quick disconnect fittings. I'm not sure where to get the right ones though.

There are more than just a few outfits offering them for sale but, not all of them are rated for the 3000 PSI that they'll be subjected to. Anybody know where I might find the correct fittings? They have to fit 1/8" or 1/4" BSPP threads.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Now I want to change out the existing Fill Probe to one of the Foster type quick disconnect fittings. I'm not sure where to get the right ones though.

There are more than just a few outfits offering them for sale but, not all of them are rated for the 3000 PSI that they'll be subjected to. Anybody know where I might find the correct fittings? They have to fit 1/8" or 1/4" BSPP threads.

HollowPoint

Here you go. Note Leroy's comments on heavy springs in the 909. Definitely need a custom cocking lever for it.

http://www.bgmfairguns.com/otherproducts.html

http://www.hamcontact.com/airgun/HoseAssembly/

[HollowPoint]

I guess I'm getting more and more impatient regarding getting this toy up and running for the first time.

I finally ordered my Hand Pump and the fitting I mentioned in my last post. I made a mistake on my order though. I ordered two of the male Foster fitting when all I needed is one.

I'll see if I can't sell it off. Someone's bound to need it eventually. If all goes well I'll be ordering one of those EPP/UG bullet molds next week and finally shooting this Big Bore as well.

This gives me just enough time to try to make up my new cocking lever again; this time out of steel.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

I guess I'm getting more and more impatient regarding getting this toy up and running for the first time.

I finally ordered my Hand Pump and the fitting I mentioned in my last post. I made a mistake on my order though. I ordered two of the male Foster fitting when all I needed is one.

I'll see if I can't sell it off. Someone's bound to need it eventually. If all goes well I'll be ordering one of those EPP/UG bullet molds next week and finally shooting this Big Bore as well.

This gives me just enough time to try to make up my new cocking lever again; this time out of steel.

HollowPoint

Wait until you pump that gun up from zero psi to 3000psi.....not fun. You may need to cock the lever to take pressure off the valve in order to get it to take a fill when pumping up an empty reservoir. Don't let your pump get to hot (feel the base for heat periodically). If you can find someone in your area that has a tank with foster fitting for that first initial fill, it will make life MUCH easier. Fill as slowly as possible when using a tank, to avoid over-heating the internals with what is known as a "flash fill".

Make certain you don't shoot it down more then 7-8 shots (or down below about 1500psi). The valve will "dump" when the pressure gets to low, then you will have to pump it from zero psi all over again. I refill my rifle when it gets down to about 2200-2500psi to get the most efficiency for my pumping effort without burning-up my pump. The more psi left in the reservoir, the easier it is for me to pump up.

That extra fitting should fit any of the Korean guns. So if you decide to get a .25 or a 9mm or something in the future you will already have the fitting.

Or you could sell it here......should move fast (often in a matter of hours) as there is about a full page of business posted there every day.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/

Research buyers here.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/406412/

While you are in the shop fabricating the cocking lever, I suggest making a stainless steel breech sleeve. Sometimes the original sleeve will allow the o-ring to blow-out from under it from time to time. When that happens, you have to take the barrel off to re-set the o-ring, which means sighting in all over again.

Good move on the EPP/UG mold. That boolit is a safe bet in the 909 guns. Hopefully you get a mold that drops'em nice and fat.

[JIMinPHX]

I have a scuba tank if you have the adapter. I have scuba yokes with NPT pipe thread fittings too if you need to screw something together. I'd kind of like to see what the airgun fittings look like & maybe take a few measurements.

[Butcher45]

I'd kind of like to see what the airgun fittings look like & maybe take a few measurements.


Check out the links I posted in post #125, and you will see what they look like.

Foster fittings are the most universal (lots of airguns use them), and the easiest to use.....that's the way to go.

[Bob.]

As mentioned, the 4500 psi carbon fiber tanks are the way to go if you can get it filled.
Being you charge or fill to around 3000 psi the smaller lower pressure SCUBA tanks wont give many fills before it will be below your fill pressure.
You can top off the rifle with a pump when the tank is below the fill pressure.
The CF tanks are high $ new but you can find used ones from fire departments.

And Butcher is right filling from zero pressure ain't much fun with a pump .

Bob

[HollowPoint]

I've been trying like crazy to stay on the budget I set when I first decided to get this new toy. So far I've been able to do just that without diverting funds from other areas of life.

I'd be nice to just go out and drop a wad of cash on all the items you guys have listed; I'm certain it would make things whole lot easier too but, with the cash I was able to scrounge up by selling off my Encore setup I wanted to get just the necessities needed to be able to shoot this Air Gun.

Within the last year or so the Encore had just become a dust collector. It's never a good thing to have a nice gun like that and never shoot it. Most of the components of that Encore are now in the hands of folks that will put them to good use.

Maybe sometime in the future I'll pick up a scuba or carbon fiber tank and the peripherals needed to pre-charge this Big Bore but, I think I'm going to stick to my budget for now. It may be that after I've pumped it a few times I'll change my mind.

I agree with Butcher that the first fill will be the hard part. After that though it should get a little bit easier. I just can't see myself hauling a tank in my back pack while in the field. I could be wrong but, a Hand Pump just seems a little more convenient for that application.

As for the extra fitting I ordered; I'm not sure when that will arrive but when it does get here you're more than welcome to use it to take measurements and such.

I finished up the motor home I was working on early today so I spent some time with my .45 caliber Lyman devastator mold. It was dropping bullets at .452 so I opened up the tail end to .457.

I want to try those cast bullets in this Air Rifle. I can size them back down when I reload for my Kimber .45. If I get time I'll cast up some straight stick-on wheel-weight-alloy'd devastator bullets this weekend. If it gets hot enough I might not even have to plug my melting pot in.

It's all coming together; slowly but surely.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

I made due with the HillPump for over two years, and didn't think I would ever be able to come up with the cash for the 4500psi tanks. I still managed to do more shooting than most. If anything, that pump makes you focus on every shot you take, because you worked for it. Most bigbore (and probably the majority of smallbore) shooters use CF tanks, and thought I was crazy for using my handpump to refill a bigbore every 3-4 shots.

If I had to choose one method of filling, it would be the pump for the reason HP described....being able to hike around with it in a pack out in the woods.

Then a good friend made me an offer I couldn't refuse on two tanks (66cu ft, and an 88 cu ft) along with all the fittings. If it wasn't for his kindness, I would not have CF tanks (he practically gave them to me).
I still use the pump for the most part, as I have a hard time arranging fills over at the paintball shop. I'm going to try and arrange a workable filling schedule with them.

Hey Bob....what are you shooting airgun-wise?

[Bob.]

I made due with the HillPump for over two years, and didn't think I would ever be able to come up with the cash for the 4500psi tanks. I still managed to do more shooting than most. If anything, that pump makes you focus on every shot you take, because you worked for it. Most bigbore (and probably the majority of smallbore) shooters use CF tanks, and thought I was crazy for using my handpump to refill a bigbore every 3-4 shots.

If I had to choose one method of filling, it would be the pump for the reason HP described....being able to hike around with it in a pack out in the woods.

Then a good friend made me an offer I couldn't refuse on two tanks (66cu ft, and an 88 cu ft) along with all the fittings. If it wasn't for his kindness, I would not have CF tanks (he practically gave them to me).
I still use the pump for the most part, as I have a hard time arranging fills over at the paintball shop. I'm going to try and arrange a workable filling schedule with them.

Hey Bob....what are you shooting airgun-wise?

I'm down to 3 air rifles, as far as PCPs I still have the Rapid MK2 in 22 caliber.
Really don't see ever parting with the Mk2 I love shooting that rifle and it's my main vermin whacker.
Last week a casting friend shot my MK2 from 50 to 100 yards so now I'm looking for another used one for him.
Used a pump for a while when I started shooting PCPs the first one I had took 580 cc of air, the Rapid takes 400cc.
I've got arthritis and it got to the point I couldnt use the pump as much as I wanted to shoot so I got a 4500psi CF tank.

Good to see ya still shootin with air power ! :drinks:

Bob

[HollowPoint]

My new Hand Pump finally showed up today. And wouldn't you know it; my new Sam Yang Big Bore was leaking air.

I ran to my neighborhood Ace Hardware store and picked up some silicone grease and I was back in business.

Airing it up wasn't as bad as you guys made it sound. It did take some time but, only because I deliberately would stop for a few minutes to let the pump cool down a little.

The hard part was the initial stages of airing up. Once I got to the 300PSI mark it actually went fairly well. The cheezy little factory fill probe didn't help matters much.

I noticed that from the 2500PSI mark it only took about 25 pumps of the handle to get me to 3000PSI mark.

When I read your previous descriptions I was thinking, "Damn, I'm going to have a pretty muscular upper body by the time this is up."

To anyone who may have been spooked away by thoughts of alot of hard work to keep your Big Bore shooting; fear not, it's not that bad. Once you get it aired up initially, it's even less work than what you may have imagined.

Here's the kicker though; One of the Foster quick-disconnect fitting I ordered was on back-order. I didn't know this before. That means I'm going to have to start from scratch once I get that fitting delivered.

The metal I ordered for my new replacement cocking lever showed up today too. The only problem is that I may not have the time to make it for a couple of weeks. I have it all laid out on my metal stock. I just need the spare time to shape it.

And I never did get around to casting up some of those Lyman Devastator bullets either. Oh well; maybe this weekend.

HollowPoint

[Bob.]

Congrats HP !
Your right the smaller air capacity rifles are not that bad to pump back up once you get it up to pressure.
Those pre charged air rifles are addictive, just like other guns it's hard to only have one!
Keep us updated I'm fascinated with the big bores using cast boolits.

Bob :drinks:

[Butcher45]

If only SamYang or PyramidAir would grease the rings before sale.

I forgot that you have the 909S, which has much less air capacity than the 909. So your 909S reservoir would be far easier to build pressure in than a 909. The latter part of the fill goes easier so long as the one doing the pumping weighs enough. I have a lighter-weight friend that needs to wear a backpack with 60lbs of weight in it to pump his 909.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Devastators' diameter will be to small, especially cast in relatively soft lead. Are you willing to modify the mold to drop a fatter diameter?

[HollowPoint]

As stated in one of my previous posts, I already have modified my Devastator mold. It was dropping bullets at .452 even with straight stick-on wheel weights.

I opened the driving bands to .457. I can always size down when I reload for my Kimber 45. I think they should work. Time will tell. If not, no matter; it's not like I've ruined the mold.

Also; I had thought about ordering one of the EPP/UG bullet molds this week but I decided to get a Boring Head instead. I can use it to alter even the cheapest molds to mimic the EPP/UG's general dimensions.

When I first looked at that specialty bullet I noticed that particular website showed their EPP/UG bullet with all of the dimensions needed for duplicating.

It looks like it's just a .357 bullet with a couple of .454 diameter driving bands placed fore-n-aft. With this new Boring Head I think I can make up a suitable Boring Bar and bore some appropriately sized groves in the cavity walls to mimic the same look. Wether it will work or not is anybodies guess but, I though it was worth a try.

Besides that, I can deduct that tool on my taxes; something I couldn't do when buying a bullet mold.

I have an old 44 caliber mold that I buggered up a while back by using the wrong tools trying to alter it. I'll be using it as my Guinea pig to see if this theory will work or not.

Well, it's time to hit the sack; got a busy day tomorrow.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

As stated in one of my previous posts, I already have modified my Devastator mold.
HollowPoint

Oh yeah. I forgot about that.

[HollowPoint]

I got the female end of the Foster Quick Disconnect fitting I ordered.

Quick Disconnect??? More like; Won't Disconnect, unless there's little or no air pressure behind or in front of these fittings.

Does anyone here have any experience with these fittings? I have them on my air tools but they only go up to 90-100 PSI. These little Foster Fittings really won't disengage when the pressure is above 300 PSI.

There's no way I put them on incorrectly; and Yes, I did bleed the air before attempting to disconnect them. I ended up having to bleed the air out of my reservoir completely in order to disconnect the darn things.

Is there a trick to it that I don't know about? I don't want to have to put the factory fill probe back on. A little help please.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

I got the female end of the Foster Quick Disconnect fitting I ordered.

Quick Disconnect??? More like; Won't Disconnect, unless there's little or no air pressure behind or in front of these fittings.

Does anyone here have any experience with these fittings? I have them on my air tools but they only go up to 90-100 PSI. These little Foster Fittings really won't disengage when the pressure is above 300 PSI.

There's no way I put them on incorrectly; and Yes, I did bleed the air before attempting to disconnect them. I ended up having to bleed the air out of my reservoir completely in order to disconnect the darn things.

Is there a trick to it that I don't know about? I don't want to have to put the factory fill probe back on. A little help please.

HollowPoint

We'll get you thru it.

First of all: Describe to me what happened when you unscrewed the bleeder valve on the base of the pump after pumping up the rifle. The bleeder valve is to be opened all at once/abruptly in quick fashion, so the bleeding should last for no longer than one second.

Also, how did you go about bleeding the air out of your rifles' reservoir?

There isn't supposed to be ANY pressure at all when dis-engaging the foster fittings. Do you really want to dis-engage a whip and female foster fitting with 3000+psi of pressure behind it? That's a far cry from a shop compressors' pressure, and far more dangerous (especially with large-capacity tanks).
The bleed valve should have dumped all the air from the pump and hose. It sounds like you tried to get the foster fittings apart while under pressure? Always bleed the line on the pump before dis-connecting.

Since you apparently did try bleeding the air out of the pump and hose before trying to dis-connect it, and still experienced pressure in the line, I can only guess that the problem is one of the following:

1) The male-end foster fitting often works best when it isn't screwed-down all the way. IF you have it screwed down all the way, try backing-it out A LITTLE BIT, and filling it again. Sometimes it can help to put a small o-ring between the bottom of the male foster, and the rifle when installing. Try a couple of different sizes. When you get it to take air without problem, don't ever mess with that foster fitting unless you absolutely have to.

2) The check valve in the reservoir behind the male foster fitting might have an obstruction to one degree or another.
When the rifle is holding air, and the check valve is working right, yoyu can take the male foster off while there is pressuree in the air tube. If there is a lot of resistance when un-screwing the male fitting, and if you hear ANY air at all that means the check valve in the rifle is failing and you need to screw that male foster back on. You do NOT want the male foster fitting to come flying-off with 3000psi being dumped behind it.

3) The end fittings in the tubing were not put back in just right. Particularly the insert that goes into the airtube (if the 909S is like the 909, which I don't know.....never tore-down or handled a 909S).

First, pump the rifle up to about 1500+psi and see if you can get the line bled, and dis-connected. No sense filling to 3000 if it's just going to dump=out.

[HollowPoint]

I took the male Foster fitting back off the Big Bore and broke out my digital calipers. I wanted to see what kind of differences there were in the dimensions; if any.

Sure enough, there was a big difference.

I had to screw the aftermarket Foster Fitting in as far as it would go to keep it from leaking air. Unfortunately, having it screwed in so deeply caused the effect that Butcher eluded to; it was somehow keeping the Air-Reservoir plug for completely sealing.

As a result, the Foster Quick disconnect fittings had full constant PSI pushing against them. That's why I couldn't disconnect them once I'd pumped the PSI up to about 300PSI and above.

The Ace Hardware store down the street had a full selection of rubber O-Rings so I was able to find a slightly larger replacement O-Ring (as well as a few larger sized just-in-case replacement O-Rings) for the face of that Male Foster Fitting.

All is right with the world again.

I cast a few of the Lyman Devastator bullet from the mold that I had opened up. I was anxious to see if they would work in this air rifle. The bullets looked good out of the mold but, when I put my calipers to them I noticed that the tail end that I had opened up to .457 was slightly out of round.

I couldn't wait; I closed all the doors and window of the house and shot a couple of these lyman devastators and a couple of the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me into a box of old tax papers that I've been getting ready to shred. I wanted to see if the rifling was printing onto the tail ends of these cast bullets.

It worked! I could see that the tail ends of my Devastator bullets were engaging the rifling. And just ahead of the lube groove there was just a hint of contact with the rifling. It was the type of rifling imprint you would get from a good "Bore-Rider" bullet setup. The smallest of the bullets that Jim gave me showed a slight trace of rifling imprint but not to much. The others, none at all.

The only down side to this particular bullet is what I stated earlier. When I opened it up to .457 I didn't get a true-round .457. It is presently an oblong-round. It goes from .455 to .457.

I have a couple of Boring-Bars coming in a couple of days. I'll be able to true-up the tail end of my Devastator mold at that time.

With any luck I'll be taking this new toy out next weekend for its maiden rabbit hunt.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

!!!That battle station is fully operational!!!

:drinks:

[HollowPoint]

I hope you Big Bore Air Gun Shooters and other interested parties will bare with me while I show off a little bit.

After what seems to me like a real long time, I finally got my new Sam Yang ready to hunt. I hope to take it out next weekend to see what it will really do.

I know a place where there's alot of cottontail targets. I know this new toy is more than enough gun; wether I can hit them or not is another story.

I broke out the camera and took a couple of pics of my finished Big-Bore Air Rifle. Nothing to outlandish; I just wanted to show you the peep sights and the Lyman Devastator slugs I'll be shooting.

[Butcher45]

I hope you Big Bore Air Gun Shooters and other interested parties will bare with me while I show off a little bit.

After what seems to me like a real long time, I finally got my new Sam Yang ready to hunt. I hope to take it out next weekend to see what it will really do.

I know a place where there's alot of cottontail targets. I know this new toy is more than enough gun; wether I can hit them or not is another story.

I broke out the camera and too a couple of pics of my finished Big-Bore Air Rifle. Nothing to outlandish; I just wanted to show you the peep sights and the Lyman Devastator slugs I'll be shooting.


Nice peep sights!

Penetration is not what the HP's do. Especially with a 909 that has not been tuned (tuning makes a HUGE difference). Use a 220-250 grain solid, or roundball if you want to see penetration. Roundball works great on small game.

I'm sure the Devastators will work more than OK on a rabbit.

Do you have a chronograph?

[HollowPoint]

In all fairness these Devastator slugs were cast from straight Stick-On wheel weights. Around 6-7 BHN.

I'm not surprised that I didn't get deep penetration, just not impressed with what I got as far as penetration.

A while back I made an adjustable hollow-point pin for this very mold. By using it I can adjust the depth of the hollow point from just a dimple on the tip of the bullet, to about 5/16" deep hollow point cavity.

If I need more penetration I can just decrease the depth of my hollow point and increase the hardness of my alloy a bit.

I do have a chronograph. It's brand new. I've only had it out of the box once; and that was just to look at it. I've had it for about three years now. I've never used it.

I guess I'll have to blow the dust off of the box it came in and check the velocity of these Devastator bullets.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Remember to have the chrony about 10 feet away from the muzzle to avoid false readings from the airblast. Just be sure to aim level, and a bit high over the sensors. I've shot more than one chrony in my time.

[Bob.]

Nice lookin rifle HP
Really like those peep sights.



Bob

[HollowPoint]

Thanks for the compliments gentlemen.

I went back and forth about putting a scope on this air gun but, in the end I decided to try to keep it as simple as possible.

The peep sights seemed like a good compromise. They basically give me the sighting effect of a zero-powered scope and still allow me to make sufficient adjustments for the close up shooting this gun was made for.

I mentioned before, without these peep sights I would just be wasting my time because I wouldn't be able to see the sights clearly enough to shoot straight.

I plan on posting a couple of bullet ideas I've had just to see what you guys think. I want to know if they look like they might have some merit. They are dimensionally based on my Air Rifle's bore dimensions.

I want to try to make a bullet mold that puts out cast bullets specifically made for this rifle.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

I plan on posting a couple of bullet ideas I've had just to see what you guys think. I want to know if they look like they might have some merit. They are dimensionally based on my Air Rifle's bore dimensions.

I want to try to make a bullet mold that puts out cast bullets specifically made for this rifle.

HollowPoint

Now we're getting to the good stuff!:cbpour:

Here's what I would like to see: a combination of the EPP/UG, and "JR" WFN designs, with the common factors mentioned earlier in the thread (very small contact area with the barrel, bore-riding qualities, and an angled/tapering top band). About 215-220grains, with a meplat around .33 or so. It'll happen some day.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/BHDJRsapprox240grains002.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5811.jpg

[HollowPoint]

As far as bullet designs go, I really don't have the experience to say one way or the other.

I'm looking for a lighter weight design with some of the same characteristics that were mentioned. I don't want to copy anyone else's design but, it seems that there are certain similarities that all good designs have to incorporate in order to get them to fly right.

The heavies are OK but, at this point I have no use for them. Since I'll be shooting real-small game a 200-plus grain slug is more than I really need.

I'll try to post what I had in mind a little later.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

The .45Slim is super-accurate in my 909.....about 170grains in pure lead.


http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/45Slim.jpg

[HollowPoint]

That last picture looks similar to a bullet and bullet mold that I drew up a couple of weeks ago. On my drawing the front grease groove looks similar to the rear grease groove. I figured the deep grease grooves would go a long way toward reducing my weight. I also made mine a hollow point for the same reason.

I was hoping for something about in the 150-155 grain range. Never having designed bullets before, I'm not sure how to calculate the weight of a given design so, I just have to guess.

I use my Lyman Devastator mold as my comparison. At that given length and shape, it weighs close to 200 grains. I figured if I design a bullet of the same length and general thickness and include some deep grease-grooves and a hollow point, that might get me to the 150 grain mark I was hoping for.

Here's one of the other bullet drawings I've been working on. I think it's stubby enough to get me into the weight range I'm looking for.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

That last picture looks similar to a bullet and bullet mold that I drew up a couple of weeks ago. On my drawing the front grease groove looks similar to the rear grease groove. I figured the deep grease grooves would go a long way toward reducing my weight. I also made mine a hollow point for the same reason.

I was hoping for something about in the 150-155 grain range. Never having designed bullets before, I'm not sure how to calculate the weight of a given design so, I just have to guess.

I use my Lyman Devastator mold as my comparison. At that given length and shape, it weighs close to 200 grains. I figured if I design a bullet of the same length and general thickness and include some deep grease-grooves and a hollow point, that might get me to the 150 grain mark I was hoping for.

Here's one of the other bullet drawings I've been working on. I think it's stubby enough to get me into the weight range I'm looking for.

HollowPoint


That's a very interesting/cool looking boolit design. Looks like a double-ended target/hunting boolit. Wonder how that would fly with the HP in the back?

Another thing to consider, is the affect the extra surface area at the face of the boolit (more surface area for the air to push). Very interesting.

Again, neat looking boolit!

[PatMarlin]

Fine looking rifle HollowPoint.

Nice cocking lever ...:mrgreen:

[PatMarlin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEacrvw2OI8&feature=related

[Butcher45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEacrvw2OI8&feature=related

That corsican ram was shot in the spine. The guy that shot that video said so.

Hit'em in the spine with just about ANY boolit, and that's what happens.

[HollowPoint]

Thanks for the compliment Pat.

After I mounted it on the gun it kind of looked out of proportion with the rest of the receiver. I left it on because it really does cock more easily in that configuration.

I have since removed it and whittled it down a little more; just so it doesn't look quite as chuncky. I have one more piece of metal left so I can make one last cocking lever later on if I'm feeling energetic. Next time I'll make it to set a little closer to the side of the receiver.

Bucher45: "(more surface area for the air to push)"

I'm not really sure what to make of this statement. I did a little bit of informal research into the optimal shape of slow moving bullets and I was able to google up a study that was done by Lapua. If I paraphrase what that study conveyed it's some thing like this:

Optimum bullet design for slow moving pistol bullets include a truncated cone-like nose and a Rebated Boat Tail.

The down side to a feature like a rebated boat tail is the fact that it may have the effect of directing the hot gasses to edges of the bullet's tail and there by inducing gas-cutting. (this is in a conventional firearm.)

I don't know if this applies to air guns with such a low PSI behind the bullet as it gets pushed forward. In the bullet I drew up, I thought a good way to mitigate the "gas-cutting" would be to modify my rebated boat tail by setting it into the tail end of the bullet's semi-hollow-base.

In my minds eye I pictured the gasses that my have been directed to the outer edges of my bullet's tail, as being re-directed by the curvature of the semi-hollow-base back into the oncoming gasses.

This would create a sort of donut-shaped vortex of pressure/gasses which would expand and seal the rear-most driving band up until the bullet exited the barrel; at which time the benefits of the rebated boat tail would add to the aerodynamics of the bullet in flight.

Of course, things don't always work the way we hope they will but, that was the idea behind the design.

The truncated cone just seemed a whole lot more aerodynamic than just about any of the air-gun-bullet designs I've seen so far. That's why I wasn't sure what to make of the, "(more surface area for the air to push)" comment.

By drawing it the way I did I was hoping to get this bullet to slice through the air rather than "push" it through the air. If there's something I'm missing here please let me know so I can incorporate it into the next idea.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

The truncated cone just seemed a whole lot more aerodynamic than just about any of the air-gun-bullet designs I've seen so far. That's why I wasn't sure what to make of the, "(more surface area for the air to push)" comment.

By drawing it the way I did I was hoping to get this bullet to slice through the air rather than "push" it through the air. If there's something I'm missing here please let me know so I can incorporate it into the next idea.

HollowPoint

I wasn't referring to the nose when I said "more surface area for the air to push". I was referring to the base of your boolit design, and the reservoirs air pushing for power. This is speaking in turns of air-specific efficiency, rather than accuracy, or terminal ballistics.

From what I have gathered thus far, any airgun calibers appear to have a power-ceiling, with the larger calibers having more fpe potential. Meaning the greater the area for the air to operate in AND ON, the greater the power potential.

The rebated boat tail's very minute increase in barrel volume (the "area in" part) is not what I'm getting at here, but the "area on". That boat tail base provides more area for the force of the air to be applied. A substantial increase in area over a plain base. I'm thinking this additional area just might provide some of the benefit a larger caliber also brings.

Another way of explaining it.....think of the boolit base as the tip of your pool cue, with the air being you operating the cue. If for some reason you are wanting to hit that Q-Ball as hard as you can, which applies more force; a pencil, or a pool cue?

I could be wrong about any or all that, but that's been my personal impression.

The 174 or so grain (BHN6) Truncated Cone is unbeaten in accuracy from my 909. Another super-accurate boolit is the old #45266 BullsEye boolit, which many describe as reminiscent of a boat-tail. My 909 loves that 226grain boolit (brained a small Oklahoma boar hog with a #45266).

Lyman#45266 third from the left

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5481.jpg

[Butcher45]

The truncated cone just seemed a whole lot more aerodynamic than just about any of the air-gun-bullet designs I've seen so far.

HollowPoint


Finding a "good" target design that shoots .5 to .9inch c-to-c at 50 yards is fairly easy....the ones with "great" accuracy do appear to have somewhere between a medium/modest meplat, to no meplat to speak of. So you seem to be on the right track for a small game/acuracy boolit. With the few airgun boolit designs that are out there, (off the top of my head) supreme accuracy was never the goal.

The objective with the large meplat airgun boolit designs you refer to has been to create the best hunting slug intended for creating larger wound channels/quicker kills when taking heart-lung shots on larger game animals. A proper Keith nose, LFN, and better yet WFN is PLENTY accurate for big game and plinking at 50 yards.


Forgot to mention, that aside from Barnes (he has a few designs for different calibers), you can count the airgun-specific designs on one hand.

[HollowPoint]

("From what I have gathered thus far, any airgun calibers appear to have a power-ceiling, with the larger calibers having more fpe potential. Meaning the greater the area for the air to operate in AND ON, the greater the power potential.

The rebated boat tail's very minute increase in barrel volume (the "area in" part) is not what I'm getting at here, but the "area on". That boat tail base provides more area for the force of the air to be applied. A substantial increase in area over a plain base. I'm thinking this additional area just might provide some of the benefit a larger caliber also brings.")

Hey Butcher:

Do know of any links you can refer me to so I can read up on exactly what you're trying to explain in the quoted sentences above?

I believe you know what you're talking about but, I'm having trouble understanding it. I thought perhaps if I read the same things you've read concerning air guns and power ceilings and surface areas and such, I could better understand what you're getting at.

The bullet study that I googled up the other day that lead me to design the bullet in the drawing I provided seemed to indicate something slightly different. Of course this study I'm referring to applied to conventional firearms; not air guns of any kind. I just assumed that this same study might have some relevance to air guns as well.

Following is the link to that study. http://www.swage.com/ftp/rbt.pdf

It's true I'm looking to make an accurate air gun bullet but not to the exclusion of terminal ballistics. Thats where a shallow hollow point comes in. With air gun slugs cast as soft as they are, even a shallowest hollow point should induce expansion even at the slow speeds that these big bore air guns function under.

Even a slight expansion should compensate for the generally low terminal ballistics of an otherwise pointy nose bullet, while hopefully still retaining its aerodynamics and accuracy .

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

("From what I have gathered thus far, any airgun calibers appear to have a power-ceiling, with the larger calibers having more fpe potential. Meaning the greater the area for the air to operate in AND ON, the greater the power potential.

The rebated boat tail's very minute increase in barrel volume (the "area in" part) is not what I'm getting at here, but the "area on". That boat tail base provides more area for the force of the air to be applied. A substantial increase in area over a plain base. I'm thinking this additional area just might provide some of the benefit a larger caliber also brings.")

Hey Butcher:

Do know of any links you can refer me to so I can read up on exactly what you're trying to explain in the quoted sentences above?

I believe you know what you're talking about but, I'm having trouble understanding it. I thought perhaps if I read the same things you've read concerning air guns and power ceilings and surface areas and such, I could better understand what you're getting at.

The bullet study that I googled up the other day that lead me to design the bullet in the drawing I provided seemed to indicate something slightly different. Of course this study I'm referring to applied to conventional firearms; not air guns of any kind. I just assumed that this same study might have some relevance to air guns as well.

Following is the link to that study. http://www.swage.com/ftp/rbt.pdf

It's true I'm looking to make an accurate air gun bullet but not to the exclusion of terminal ballistics. Thats where a shallow hollow point comes in. With air gun slugs cast as soft as they are, even a shallowest hollow point should induce expansion even at the slow speeds that these big bore air guns function under.

Even a slight expansion should compensate for the generally low terminal ballistics of an otherwise pointy nose bullet, while hopefully still retaining its aerodynamics and accuracy .

HollowPoint

I think you are going to need a cavity quite a bit wider, and a bit deeper than the one in your initial blueprint to achieve pedaling/expansion. That cavity looks like it would just smear/deform. Cavities that are fat, and of medium depth seem to be working the best overall for the people shooting HP's (with both accuracy, and expansion).

The best place to do research on technical airgun stuff is here. All you have to do is ask, and some of the most experienced airgunsmiths in the world will be there to answer.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/

[HollowPoint]

I spent most of the day today working on what I hope will be the first of several Air-Gun dedicated bullet molds.

Encouraged by several recent posts by guys on this forum showing their first ever bullet molds I finally quit procrastinating and went at it. So far it's going quite well.

The only thing I struggled with were the alignment pins but, I finally got it worked out by using some of the examples shown by a couple other first time bullet mold makers on this sight.

This first attempt will be as simple a design as I could do. It's a close copy of the EPP/UG bullet. The only difference is that the forward part of the bullet will be at the diameter of the bore, (.453) with the middle driving band being .456" and the tail end driving band set at .457"; and it will be hollow pointed.

I had a couple of old Lee Two-Cavity Sprue Plates laying around. They were left overs from two molds I ruined a while back. I also had the mold-handles from those two ruined mold so I'm putting them to good use. I'm using a piece of aluminum that used to be a suspension part off of a Cadillac CTS. I got it from the Body-Shop junk pile where I used to work.

Before I went back to self-employment, that junk pile used to be a gold mine for miscellaneous metal stock.

Tomorrow I hope to finish up most of the details before I actually make my bullet cavities. I'm probably going at it bass-akwards but, that's OK. I just need to get this experience under my belt, then I can have a little more confidence when I attempt to make up the mold for the bullet design I posted earlier.

It feels like it's just one more step to being fully self-sufficient with respect to hunting and shooting.

With this air rifle, I haven't had to buy powder, primers or shell cases. The peripheral accessories took me a while to acquire but, now I can just cast my bullets and go shooting.

I can't see myself ever selling all my firearms but, I'm starting to feel like I may be letting a couple more of them go just so I can purchase another Big Bore Air Rifle to Tinker around with. I'm fairly certain that I've acquired enough knowledge about these Sam Yangs to be able to convert one over to .30 caliber.

Well, I'm starting to ramble on now so I'll shut up for now.

I'll post pics of this Big Bore Air Rifle bullet mold when I get it finished up. The reason I went at this mold in the order I have been is because I'm waiting for the boring tool I ordered to arrive. I can't make the bullet cavities till it gets here.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I've gone as far as I can on my present attempt to make my first Big Bore PCP specific bullet. My plan was to make them match the dimensions of my Sam Yang's bore.

While I'm waiting for the Boring tool I ordered I thought I'd post the first bullet design I drew up. I posted the second design ahead of it because I personally thought it was a more aerodynamically correct Air-Bun bullet design.

The bullet design I'm posting here is a lot more complex. (at least for me to build) It may be way out of the realm of possibility for a novice bullet and mold designer/maker. (like myself for example) I guess I'll find out when the time comes.

Right now I just want to finish and cast with the mold I'm working on now before I get ahead of myself and start rambling on about these other two designs.

Check it out.

HollowPoint.

[JIMinPHX]

I'll say again that I'm no airgun expert, but one thing crosses my mind. Is there any real value to having such deep grooves? Once your grooves are about .01" below the minor diameter of the bore, does going smaller really help in some way? There may be a good reason for it, but it's just not obvious to me, so I'm asking.

[HollowPoint]

From an aerodynamic stand point I don't believe there is any real value other than maybe to help reduce the weight of the projectile while maintaining a certain length.

I prefer the initial design I posted. The main body of the bullet is sized so that it rides the bore and the thin driving bands are just big enough to initiate spin and seal the air behind it.

The design in thread 163 was meant to emulate some of the existing Big Bore Air gun bullets. Most -if not all- of the more accurate ones tend to have pronounced driving bands that stand much taller than the core of the bullet.

Why? I have no idea. In the little bit of informal research into optimum bullet shapes for slow moving bullets like these Air Gun slugs that I've done, I haven't come across anything that would even remotely suggest that these "pronounced driving bands" are ballistically beneficial. I suspect it's just a case where everyone's trying to copy everyone else. I'm afraid I'm guilty of that.

Why? Old habits die hard. The only thing I tried to do differently is give it a pointy nose and a hollow point to enhance the aerodynamics and try to distinguish my bullet.

I think at some point someone must have stumbled onto that "pronounced driving band" design, it worked well in their gun and maybe several others so no one bothered to do much more R&D other than cosmetic changes in order to claim a new design.

I've seen the same phenomenon with bullet casting and designing for traditional firearms.

When was the last time you seen or signed onto a group-buy for a bullet mold of a new design? One that's almost radically different but, shown to work?

I haven't been a member here that long but, I've never seen a group buy that featured anything but bullet molds that cast bullets similar-to or copies-of existing bullet molds. It's almost like no ones thinking outside the proverbial box for fear of upsetting the balance of bullet-casting-nature.

My previous design is nothing new either but, with the rebated boat tail protruding from the semi-concave base, I think it may actually work as an Air-Gun-Specific projectile.

That's the next bullet mold I'll be working on. I have the blocks nearly ready and additional metal stock on the way.

I'm deliberately trying something NEW. If it crashes and burns; so what. I'll never know unless I try. I think alot of guys on this forum have had some stellar ideas for new bullet designs but, for one reason or another, they've never brought it forth.

I'm not saying my ideas are anything stellar by any stretch of the imagination. As I stated above, my bullet designs are nothing new. I'm just trying to make the point that there's gotta be something more than the "Status-Quo" bullets we all love to shoot.

I know we all tend to gravitate toward the "Tried-and-True", "Status-Quo" cast bullets that work for us but, isn't anyone else here deliberately trying new bullet designs; regardless of how radical they may appear or the oppositions they may encounter because of them?

Since acquiring this new .45 caliber Air Rifle, I thought I'd do just that. I may ruffle the feathers of the hardline traditionalists. I may waste alot of time with little in the way of positive results but, on the other hand.......

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I got a chance to go out this morning and do some informal "Stump-Shooting" with my newly acquired Sam Yang .45 Big Bore.

I have to say, I was impressed. Not with myself as the shooter but, with this Air Rifle's performance.

I was shooting some of my 200 grain Lyman Devastator slugs. Again; I was impressed. They seemed to be hitting right where I was aiming.

Not bench-rest accuracy mind you but, plenty accurate for rabbits and coyotes.

I fired only four rounds at a time then I'd recharge my air reservoir. Each of these four rounds hit close enough to the same point of aim that I couldn't really tell if there was any loss of velocity.

I had my range finder with me so I was deliberately shooting out to a hundred yards with the same results. I'll make it a point to take my chronograph with me next time. Hopefully by then I'll have my first bullet mold finished so I can test some slightly lighter bullets.

I did have some of the bullets that JIMinPHX gave me. They varied in size and weight but that didn't seem to make any difference accuracy-wise. They seemed to hit where I was aiming as well. I think a more formal shooting session is in order now.

With the recent storms we've had here I was hoping to come across another toppled over sahuaro cactus. Sure enough; I found one and took a shot from measured-50 yards. It was about 11 or 12 inches in diameter and I had planned on doing some minor surgery on that cactus to retrieve the bullet but, it had passed clean through.

That really surprised me; given that they were cast from straight stick-on wheel weights. I would have figured that these soft hollow pointed slugs would have flattened out like a pancake and not penetrated very deep.

I really hope that our Game And Fish department changes the hunting regulations for pneumatic weapons to include coyotes. As you may have heard, right now the only thing that can legally be hunted with pneumatic weapons here in Arizona are rabbits.

Now I'm really anxious to get my bullet mold finished. I think this Air Rifle is going to work out real well for me. If any of you have considered getting one, I can't say enough good things about them.

HollowPoint

[JonnyReb]

Hi Hollowpoint, i joined C.B. as i was given the link to this forum while searching for the best boolit for my Sam Yang. This link came up, also a member at an airgun site linked me over. Nice to meet ya'll.

I look forward to seeing the results of your new molds in action, how is it coming along?

My .45 is an early manufacture Sam Yang, a bit low in power compared to the newer model. Like you, i am VERY impressed with the gun, mine is very nicely put together, a joy to shoot. With .454 and .457 roundballs i'm seeing strings starting at 700fps or so and the next 4 shots are pretty consistent with that number. Accuracy is astounding , i had no idea a gun could throw a roundball so well.
I've also just experimented with a muzzleloading .45 plastic sabot holding an 155gr. xp pistol jacketed round. This shot well also and netted me about 648fps... 145ftlbs.. nothing to scoff at but not exactly a firebreather either. It does however, open up the possibility of using other .401 cast or jacketed boolits for lower weight projectiles and higher velocity.

On order are 150gr. epp's, i can't wait to get them and give em a try. I'm going to base the purchase of my first mold on the results of the epp. Look forward to hearing of any progress you've made in finding a "perfect" round for this gun.. J

[HollowPoint]

Greetings JonnyReb:

And welcome to Cast Boolits. It's an honor to have you post your first reply on one of my threads/posts.

I think that the "Best Bullet" for our Sam Yangs is the one you can get to give you the best accuracy and power without having to spend a small fortune -repeatedly- in order to get more of them.

One of the main reasons I'm attempting to make my own bullet molds is because I'm trying to attain a certain amount of self-sufficiency when it comes to bullet casting and reloading. That's just a round-about way of saying that I'm cheap by nature and a chronic do-it-yourselfer.

It's a slow work week this week so I'm spending my time trying to finish up my first mold so I can start on the second.

I'm afraid I'm getting to impatient. I have the habit of rushing things and that generally means my original plans turn out a little different than I originally planned.

I got the first mold nearly complete but, rather than having the three driving bands I'd intended to copy from the UPP/bullet, I decided to make it with the main body of the slug .452 in diameter and just one single driving band at the rear of the bullet that measures .457. It also has a shallow hollow point.

If it were a rifle-type bullet it would be called a "Bore-Rider" but, since it's a pistol bullet I don't know if that designation still applies. Oh well; If it works, it works; if it doesn't, it doesn't.

I'm making it out of an old Lee two cavity .30 caliber mold that I ruined a while back. To make myself appear to be more politically correct I guess I should call it recycling.

I'll just keep plucking away till I get it done. It's the next bullet mold that I plan on trying to be a little more meticulous with; although I'm pretty sure that mold will also end up putting out cast bullets that look slightly different than what I had drawn as well.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Good to see you found your way over JonnyReb:cbpour: I have a feeling there will be a lot of airgun boolit R@D going on in the near future. Especially for the common/popular Korean barrel profiles.

[JonnyReb]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys, glad to be here. Nothing i like more than a site full of folks who love my various shooting related hobbys as much as i do. This place seems full of people who have "been there, done that" and i hope to pick up as much knowledge as i can.

Butch, you i think, know as much about preferred bullet design in the SY as anyone alive judging from a google search of best bullets for the sam yang. Hollowpoint, you have designed what looks to me like the best large bore pellet design on the face of the earth.. just my opinion, but i sure look forward to seeing your results. I was reading in a copy of the book "Lee reloading"(2000 ed.) last night and Richard Lee said he would make anyones mold into production reality for a hundred dollar set up fee + the regular cost of the tool. I don't know if that still stands but... i thought i'd mention it. Anyways, I'M the one who feels honored to be here, i feel like i will learn lots about this gun over the next few months and i'm sure looking forward to sharing info with you guys. BTW Butcher, thanks so much for the info on the tuners, it is very appreciated.

I can't wait also to begin casting my own slugs for both air and powderburners, i'll be spending a lot of time here for sure. :) J

[PatMarlin]

Welcome to cast boolit heaven JonnyReb! ..:drinks:

We have a good number of fine craftsman mold makers here at CB. I'm sure we could do a group buy for your air gun mold at a lower cost and much better quality than LEE.

[Pepe Ray]

Good morning gentlemen;
Allthough there have been a few interruptions, I've been following this thread with GREAT interest.
Not being a NET SURFER, could I ask for someone to post a link to a retailer of these remarkable BBAR's (Big Bore Air Rifles)?
Also, are the portable pumps usually available from the same dealer?

I tried to get a line on a Quackenbush but that's out of the question for one who doesn't buy 'green bananas'. :roll:

Thanks for any and all assistance,
Pepe Ray

[scrapcan]

Pepe,

Lik eyou I am also watching closely and trying to get into this interesting aspect of the shooting sports. The above guys no way more than I could hope to learn so listen to what they say.

There are a few dealers. Not sure who is the best price right now though. PyramidAir, airgundepot, Cobra airguns.com, etc..

For the portable manual operated pump you will want to go with the Hill pump. There are other pump makers, but he hill is the top of the line and reliable.

i am trying to trade myslef out of a few things so I can upgrade to on of these abig bore airguns.

[JonnyReb]

Hi guys, thanks for joining in!! In my opinion, pyramid air, using their 10% off code (summer2010), has the best prices on bigbores. The .50,.45 and 9mm is carried by them and they have quick shipping and a good service dept if ever needed. Also, you can google "Airgun classifieds" or "yellow forum classifieds", as i did, to pick up a bigbore for about $400.00. A used manual pump on the classifieds will run anywhere from $125.00 and up. A scuba tank can be had new for $140ish and the adapter and fill station run another $70.00 or so. I went used for the pump and gun and ended up at around $600.00. Couldn't be happier. For a bit more power, google "southern airgun conversions" to find a site that sells semi custom bigbore .45 and .308 for a few hundred bucks more. I think bigbore airgunning is here to stay, i can't wait to see new products emerge over the next couple years.

This whole bullet topic is new too. Anyone on the forefront, designing and building bigbore airgun ammo will find themselves much in demand.. as right now everyone is using the available roundballs, foster type slugs and muzzleloading designs... none of which are really made for the special demands of an airgun. The above design is the only one i've ever run across.. and it looks well thought out.. quite viable it seems.. group buy you say?? .... i'm gonna really like this place..:cbpour: J


edit: I hope this is allowed, i wanted to post a link to an AG site, a thread with some good info on it. Some of it relates to hunting and there are some photos that some may not be comfortable with seeing. mods please remove this(but not me :)) if it's a problem.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=1852.0

[melloairman]

These smiths have a waiting list normally but here you go .Marvin
I have a J.H.32 and it is a good rifle
http://www.southernairgunconversion.com/southernairguns_002.htm
I have a Gargoyle by Dan which I have yet to shoot but the workman ship is there . He tuned it to put out 680 fpe.
http://www.xp-airguns.com/
Here is Leroys site the inovator of the Gargoyle.
http://www.bgmfairguns.com/index.html
And DQB site .
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

[HollowPoint]

Good Morning Gentlemen:

It's good to see a few more Air Gun enthusiasts on this thread. And it's always good to have all the other Cast Boolits craftsmen and fans like Pat and Jim chiming in when they can.

I spent most of yesterday trying to make a "Cherry" for my bullet mold. The first one turned out slightly smaller in diameter than I had hoped so I did a second one that seemed to fall right into the dimensions I was wanting.

Turning them on the lathe is fairly quick and easy but, most of that time was spent milling the flutes on this reamer. With my little cheapy Harbor Freight bench top mill it can only handle small bites of metal with each pass of the end mill. I'm not kidding, it took me about an hour or so for each of the four flutes.

These little machines just don't have the torque to mill any faster and right now I don't have the money to buy a better machine so, it's going to have to do.

I wanted to finish as much as I could cause tomorrow I have a job coming in and I don't know when I can finish up the work on this bullet mold.

I intended to answer Pepe's question about the retailers that sold these Sam Yangs but, it seems that one of the other Air Gunners has taken care of that.

I got my Sam Yang and my hand pump from Pyramyd Air. They were both on sale at the time I puchased them. I think I got a good deal compared to some of the other retailers. It's like any other purchase though; you have to shop around. At any give time you may be able to find a better deal at one of the other sellers.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

The job I had scheduled for today didn't show up until mid-afternoon. It was supposed to arrive at 9:00 AM this morning.

While I waited around I decided to work on finishing up my number 2 Air-Gun-Dedicated bullet mold.

It started out good but, after misaligning my cavity holes, ruining my sprue-plate and having my newly ordered metal stock not show up, things kind of went hay-wire for a while.

I originally intended to make this mold a four cavity but, because of my misaligned cavity holes I had to cut it down to a three cavity mold. When I cut it down to accommodate my three cavities I cut to close to my alignment pins, which left them partially exposed but still functional.

If it's true that we learn from our mistakes then I should be a freak-en genius.

I also intended to make these bullets aerodynamic and hollow pointed. I had ordered some additional aluminum flat bar which I was going to use as the form for the rebated-boat-tail ends of my bullets; however, that flat bar didn't show up so I decided to go with the "Nose-Pour" style of mold instead and put the rebated-boat-tail forming fixture on a cramer-style fitting.

Since my bullet mold was now a "Nose-Pour," that meant that I'd have a semi-round flat nose so I varied the sizes of the Nose-Flats, bullet sizes and the lengths of my boat-tails.

If none of these descriptions make any sense I've included a couple of pictures so you know what I'm babbling about.

When my previously ordered flat bar finally shows up I'll be able to use it to make what I'm pretty sure will be a more refined Air-Gun-Dedicated Bullet Mold. And this time I know it will come out like I originally intended.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Getting three designs out of that mold (instead of three cavities of just one design) puts you way ahead of the game for your testing. However this turns out, it sure is interesting to be able to watch from the get-go.

[Marlin Junky]

Can the 909S be filled from a hand pump?

MJ

[Larry Gibson]

I'm coming into this a little late perhaps but I always thought the Rapine 460210 would be excellent in such an air rifle. It is a HB with a very deep tapered HB. I use it in my 45-70s at 600 - 1000 fps with small doses of Bullseye. It is a deadly small game getter. The photo's show it (bullet on the left).

Larry Gibson

[Butcher45]

Can the 909S be filled from a hand pump?

MJ


Yes it can.

[HollowPoint]

Greetings Marlin Junky and Larry Gibson:

Butcher, it's been a short while since I seen your name on one of these repies. It's good to see you back.

I use a hand pump to air up my 909S. Mainly cause I don't have the spare cash to lay out for a carbon fiber tank and hoses.

When I was out shooting last weekend I did find myself wishing I had an air tank after about the fourth time I topped of my air reservoir but, I can live with a hand pump for now. Once you get a pumping routine down it's not that bad.

Larry I think your bullet suggestion is just about right on the money. Back on post 29 is a picture of a selection of cast bullets that JIMinPHX gave me when I first started this thread. Jim milled/drilled hollow bases of various depths and contours on each. One of them bullets was similar to the bullet you've suggested; only slightly shorter.

I wasn't sure how they'd fly cause their diameters were smaller than the measured dimensions of my bore. When I shot them last weekend they all seemed to shoot just fine. They all seemed to end up at or near where I was aiming.

My reason for trying to come up with an "Air Gun Specific" bullet for my Sam Yang is because I'm wanting a design that will give me good interior, exterior and terminal ballistics in a slow moving bullet. I want to be done with the days where Air Guns just shoot pellet-type projectiles and cast pistol bullets. I'm looking for a "Dedicated, Air Gun Specific" bullet.

I know it's been said again and again that bullet design is a balancing act between all three of those qualities but, I'm still going to try to have my cake and eat it too. I think all three ballistic qualities can be had with the right design.

The design I'll be casting this weekend is the design I hope will work. Although; with the flat-nose contour I ended up with I think it will detract from the exterior ballistics this time around. My next attempt will be more of a pointed nose.

OK, I just caught myself starting to ramble on like I actually now what I'm talking about. The truth be told; with all there is to know about ballistics and bullet design, it would be closer to the truth for me to state that I know nothing, rather than trying to explain what and the why I'm doing what I'm doing in coming up with a new bullet design.

There has to be a design that could rightly be considered "Optimum" for these Big Bore Air Guns. And since I haven't found it by searching the internet then I figured I'd try to come up with that "Optimum" Air Gun Specific bullet design myself.

Wether I succeed is still up in the air but, I think I'm off to a decent start.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I finally finished the work on my second bullet mold attempt. It turned out a little rough around the edges but still functional.

The bullets also are dropping from the mold a little rough around the edges but, I know they'll still work. How well they work is yet to be seen though.

If I get a chance I'll take them out and shoot them this Labor Day weekend.

It's a relief to finish this mold. I did learn alot from all the mistakes I made. I'm kind of anxious to get started on my next mold but I want to test this first batch of bullets first.

No sense in building another mold if these don't shoot well; even though I'm relatively confident that they will, I could be mistaken. I've been wrong before. I'm trying real hard not to get ahead of myself but it's difficult not to.

Since I'm the one that's developing these bullets I've taken it upon myself to name them as well. I'm calling them, "Arc-Angel " bullets . (C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano If that name has already been applied to another bullet design I'll worry about it later. Right now, "Arc-Angel" bullets (C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano are their working title.

Why "Arc-Angels ?" (C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano

Because, it's the "Arc-Angels" that usher in new eras. They are the Heralds of new beginnings. If these or any of the modifications I make to these bullets perform as I hope they will, I think this is an appropriate name for these "Air Gun Dedicated" bullets.


Behold; Fellow Big Bore Air Gunners; I bring you tidings of great joy. For today a new Air Gun Specific Bullet has been born; Yada, Yada, Yada. You get the picture.

There will finally be a bullet that has been researched, designed and tested specifically for Air guns. Not just for shooting water-filled jugs with dramatic effect in order to sell to the uninitiated cast bullet novice. Not just a flat-nosed, un-gainly, aerodynamically inefficient slug of lead that shoots well but isn't really made for air guns and tends to destabilize at higher velocities.

I know that there's a good chance that these "Arc-Angel" bullets (C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano are just an exercise in futility but, I just can't help getting ahead of myself and thinking, " If these work well enough I can scale them up or down to the various small-bore and larger-bore air guns being used today.

That is yet to be seen though.

Here's a couple of pics of how they look. I hope to be able to post some updates on how they shoot as time permits.

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

Looking forward to the testing. Hope they fly true!




There will finally be a bullet that was researched, designed and tested specifically for Air guns.


Actually, there are a few boolit designs out there that were researched, designed and tested specifically for airguns. Off the top of my head; Gary Barnes' designs (he keeps most of them a secret between himself and his customers).....Eric Henderson designed a DragonSlayer boolit a couple/few years ago, and Seth Rowland designed the "JR" series WFN airgun slugs about a year ago. I think there is also another Cast Boolit forum member here that designed some great hunting slugs for the DragonSlayer.

[HollowPoint]

" Hope they fly true! "


Hi Butcher: That makes two of us.

I've seen some of the bullets designed by the gentlemen you mentioned. I'm leaning more toward "aerodynamic" bullets with carefully proportioned hollow points.

I'm wanting good flight characteristics without sacrificing the punch that most of these other Air Gun bullet appear to be designed around.

That's were the small hollow point comes in. I'm hoping that the aerodynamic profile of the bullet makes it slice through the air and fly true until it reaches the target; at which time the small hollow point initiates just the right amount of expansion to equal the effect of the wide flat nose profiles that many of these other bullet designs are known for.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I've been trying like crazy to figure out how to calculate the Ballistic Coefficient of a bullet the shape of my new "Arc-Angel" bullets. [smilie=b:

I've googled up more than one online calculator set up specifically for this type of calculation but, I must be entering incorrect information in one or more of the data fields cause, it's just doesn't seem to be coming out right; or I'll get error messages instead.:killingpc

I've even gone as far as searching bullet-data-bases for bullets with profiles and weights as close to the profiles of my "Arc-Angel" bullets as possible, in hopes of getting a clue of the ballistic coefficient of my bullets.

I think it has a lot to do with me sucking at math that makes this a frustrating ordeal. Anybody out there know how to do this? A little help please.

HollowPoint

[Marlin Junky]

I've been trying like crazy to figure out how to calculate the Ballistic Coefficient of a bullet the shape of my new "Arc-Angel" bullets. [smilie=b:

I've googled up more than one online calculator set up specifically for this type of calculation but, I must be entering incorrect information in one or more of the data fields cause, it's just doesn't seem to be coming out right; or I'll get error messages instead.:killingpc

I've even gone as far as searching bullet-data-bases for bullets with profiles and weights as close to the profiles of my "Arc-Angel" bullets as possible, in hopes of getting a clue of the ballistic coefficient of my bullets.

I think it has a lot to do with me sucking at math that makes this a frustrating ordeal. Anybody out there know how to do this? A little help please.

HollowPoint

HP,

Go to Radio Shack and see if you can buy a very long cable for your Chrony OR set one of these out at two different distances (perhaps 10 and 200 feet, whatever):

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=531741

With the F1, you'll need a spotting scope to read the display. I would should several groups at the distance you plan on measuring the velocity before actually shooting over the chronograph. Then use the following app:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmbcv-5.1.cgi while trying the different drag functions (you'll see what I'm talking about once you get there).

MJ

[Butcher45]

This looks like it could be a serious contender for the Sam Yang in the lightweight division. The latest airgun-specific design.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=992523#post992523

[HollowPoint]

Hi Butcher.

I believe you could be right about that new bullet you posted the link for. If it had a round nose it would almost be a dead ringer for the UPP bullet.

If it were a little longer it would almost be clone of the "REAL" bullets I've seen or the "Raptor" bullet that was kept under wraps for so long by its creator. It has all of the characteristics of those bullets known to shoot extremely well out of the .45 Big Bores. The fact that it's a lighter weight projectile makes it even more interesting.

I hope it shoots like gang-busters. Light weight bullets like that are what seems to be missing in the .45 big bore ranks. Well done Mellow-Man.

Marlin Junky:

The link you provided is one of the three Ballistic Coefficient calculators I came up with as well. I went back and checked all the numbers I had entered.

In the data field asking for distance between chronographs I had inadvertently put 10 yards rather than 90 yards. I believe this would be correct if I placed my first chronograph at 10 yards and my second at 100 yards.

Also, just out of curiosity, I went through all the "Drag-values" as you suggested, to see what the differences would be. The lowest BC that turned up was .119 using the G1 value and .190 using the G7 and the RA7 (or RA4 value; I can't remember what it was now) value.

One of the things I read about these "Drag-Values" stated that, "for "Standard Bullets" the G1 value was used" and "for Boat-Tail Bullets the G7 value was generally used" but, because these Arc-Angel bullets don't fall neatly into the "Standard Bullet" or the "Boat-Tail" bullet genre of bullets designs, I'm still not convinced that I'm getting correct numbers.

In my very short and informal search for this information, I've come across bullets with profiles like school busses that have higher BC's. Of course these other bullets are being fired at higher velocities so that must also figure into their equations.

I'll keep looking into it and see what I can come up with.

I wasn't able to go shooting this weekend but I did manage to cast a few more bullets on Sunday after tweeking the Boat-Tail ends of my mold. I now have the lightest bullet hovering at 160 grains with the heaviest of the three still at 225 grains.

It was the 225 grain bullet that I was attempting to run the BC numbers on.

I was hoping to get the lightest bullet down to about 150 grains so that when I make up my new mold with pointier nosed bullets, the added nose weight would bring me back to about 160 grains. I'll just have to see how it works out.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

Opps: posted the same reply twice. My bad.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

The Arc-Angel has landed.

OK, I'm getting carried away.

I got a chance to shoot a few of them at short range. (30-50 yard offhand)
It looks as though right now -with this flat nosed profile- the heavier bullets are more accurate than the light weights.

I didn't take my camera with me. I didn't even plan on going out cause I've been feeling under the weather for the last few days but, I was just dying to try these out.

It was informal shooting to be sure but, these Arc-Angel bullets showed some promise.

The metal stock for the new mold I plan to make should arrive next week. Right now, my work schedule next week looks like it's starting out kind of busy but if I finish up in time I can start making up my parts.

Now that I know they'll shoot, I plan on making an adjustable Cramer Style two cavity mold.

If it comes out like I've planned, I'll be able to cast Arc-Angel bullets of weights ranging from 160 grains to 230 grains in the pointy-nose profile and 155 to 225 grains in the flat nose profile.

With a separate jig, I can hollow point them and hopefully have some long range hunting bullets with a good ballistic coefficient for such a slow moving bullet.

The weights I've listed are just estimates based on the weight I'm getting now with flat-nose bullets cast from straight-stick-on wheel weights.

I know it's kind of a bold plan for a novice mold maker but, having learned from a multitude of mistakes I've made, I now believe it's doable.

HollowPoint

(C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano

[HollowPoint]

Hey, I’m back.

To those of you that have been following this thread, I’m sorry it’s been so long since I added anything new.

For the last few weeks I’ve been dealing with one of those “No-Medical-Insurance Cancer-Scares” you hear about from time to time; along with the accompanying “Your-Money-or-Your-Life” drama that the medical professionals tend to interject into these already stressful situations.

Because of this situation my regular routine was put on the back burner till I could get things worked out.

I did log on here from time to time just to get my mind off of these events.

The bad news is, I have quacks practicing "Defensive Medicine" for doctors. The good news is, it was just a case of severe Acid Reflux.:groner:

Go figure.

I still have a little healing time ahead of me but, for the most part I can resume my “Before-The-Scare” routine.

Other than the initial informal shooting I did with my Arc-Angel Bullets, I haven’t gotten a chance to do any further shooting. That will be changing soon. Now that I know I’m not in for a prolonged session of physical and psychological distress I can resume my R&D of this bullet design.

I did get a chance to tinker with my second prototype bullet mold while going through the above mentioned ordeal. (also, just to get my mind off of things I was going through)

I decided to build a mold that would allow me to cast my Arc-Angel Bullets in as many configurations as possible out of the same mold. I figured it would save me the time and expense of having to build multiple bullet molds in order to find the optimum weight, length or profile.

Prototype number 2 isn't nearly as rough around the edges as my first bullet mold but, like my first mold, I know it will work just the same.

Once I figure out which of these Arc-Angel Bullet configurations is the optimum one, I can concentrate on building my molds specifically for that bullet shape and weight.

I think I’ve now figured out a way to build my molds in the traditional hollow point mold configuration without the use of a CNC mill. The thing that was holding me back was the rebated-boat-tail of these Arc-Angel Bullets.

The form I have to make for the Rebated Boat Tail is so deep that putting the boat-tail form on the top of the mold may have given me fill out problems.

I want to test a few bullets before I move onto prototype number 3 though.

I’ve included a couple of pics of prototype number 2 below. Stay tuned for further developments.

HollowPoint


(C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano

[HollowPoint]

Hi all:

I tried casting with my Second Prototype Arc-Angel Bullet mold this morning. I immediately started having problems.

Even with the problems I did manage to cast a few good bullets but, these problems all stemmed from my poor choice of materials with respect the the "Cramer-Components."

I made them out of aluminum; the cross-pins and the main cylinder into which the Rebated Boat Tail form slides.

This meant that the hotter I got my mold the more galling that occurred with the cross-pins and the main cylinder. Which in turn meant that I couldn't keep a fast enough casting-pace to maintain the proper mold temperature. (not to mention the Heat-Sink effect that aluminum has anyway)

Although the mold design appears to be sound and functional, my choice of metal for some of the key components is less than adequate.

I'm going to have to ditch the existing aluminum cross-pins and cylinder and turn some steel components to replace them. Also, I wasn't to crazy about the function of my alignment pins. I think I didn't make them large enough. I'll have to replace those too.


Hopefully I'll get some time to do that next week.

To give you an idea of what I was wanting to achieve with this Arc-Angel Bullet mold design, I've included a low quality image of a few of the bullets that did come out usable.

HollowPoint

(C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano

[Marlin Junky]

Sorry, I'm getting in on this very late and I don't have time to review all the posts leading up to its development; however, why is this design preferable to a hollow base mold similar to Lee 459-405-HB but with a much lighter as-cast weight?

Would it be possible to duplicate .45 ACP pistol ballistics with this Korean rifle and a soft lead "pellet"? If so, I would think it would be adequate for most deer hunting situation at bow-type ranges (e.g., from a ground blind or tree stand).

MJ

[HollowPoint]

Greetings MJ:

"Would it be possible to duplicate .45 ACP pistol ballistics with this Korean rifle and a soft lead "pellet"? If so, I would think it would be adequate for most deer hunting situation at bow-type ranges (e.g., from a ground blind or tree stand)."

I would say yes to both. In fact, the main reason I bought this air rifle was to replace the traditional
bow and arrows I was using to hunt deer here in AZ. I developed a case of tendonitis in my drawing arm so I decided to sell the bow and use the money to buy this rifle.

While doing some research on these Big Bore Air Rifles I found that alot of guys were doing just that; I mean, hunting deer, hog, coyotes, among other game.

Unfortunately, I didn't know that the only thing that can be legally hunted with any pneumatic weapon here in Arizona are rabbits. I found this out only after purchasing the gun.

I'm hoping our local Game and Fish department will change those regulations in the upcoming year. If not, I'll have to be happy using it to hunt rabbits. Still alot of fun.

As far as my bullet design being preferable; I really can't say that it's preferable to any other projectile. I've shot various .45 caliber bullets out of this rifle and they all seemed to hit at or near where I was aiming.

When I first started this thread, JIMinPHX gave me several .45 caliber bullets of different weights and configurations to try out. He had manually hollowed out the bases of each bullet just to see if one performed better than the other.

The problem was, (if you can call it a problem cause there really wasn't one) they were all .45 caliber pistol bullets designed to shoot out of powder burning guns. My reason for coming up with the Arc-Angel Bullet design was to deliberately design and test a bullet specifically for the Big Bore .45 caliber PCP Air Rifle.

I didn't want a blunt nosed pistol bullet. I wanted an aerodynamically efficient bullet that would give me good internal, external and terminal ballistics when shot out of a low-velocity air rifle like mine.

After doing some research on optimum bullet designs for slow moving bullets, (700-900 fps) I decided to incorporate a rebated boat tail and a semi-hollow-base into the same design just to see if it would shoot.

As luck and a little good research would have it, the design has shown to have some promise. That's why I've continued to pluck away at it trying to tweak this design into an optimum weight and profile for my Sam Yang .45 caliber PCP Air Rifle.

There are presently a whole lot of projectiles made specifically for these Big Bore Air Rifles and some of them are real good shooters. (and more coming online every day) I was just wanting to go in a different direction with my bullet design.

You'll find that most of these other designs are basically full wad-cutter profiles with high driving bands and deep lube grooves. For the most part, they are not made to be ballistically aerodynamic.

So far it's worked out pretty well. I still have alot more tweaking and testing to do but, I figure that in two or three more month I'll be ready to send some bullets out for testing in other Air rifles of the same caliber. So far I've only shot them out of my rifle.

I hope I made some sense with my reply. Thanks for the inquiry.

HollowPoint

(C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano

[Butcher45]

Would it be possible to duplicate .45 ACP pistol ballistics with this Korean rifle and a soft lead "pellet"? If so, I would think it would be adequate for most deer hunting situation at bow-type ranges (e.g., from a ground blind or tree stand).

MJ
[/FONT][/FONT]


With the 909S, yes you can. The 909 is more like a target .45ACP, or black-powder pistol in power as far as fpe is concerned. Tuned 909S rifles have spit out 143grain roundball at over 1010fps, 200grain boolits at 887fps, 218grainers at 816fps, 238@778fps, 305grain@718fps, and even 415grainers@633fps (try that with your .45ACP lol!). So that's about medium range .45ACP, right?

Personally, as far as boolit design is concerned I'm concerned only with accuracy, the best velocity for the boolit weight, and terminal ballistics. If you are just shooting steel plates then any ol' roundnose slug that is accurate will do fine I imagine. For hunting I want to slap them hard with a big meplat. The hole in game is noticeably larger when a WFN profile is used at these velocities, even over a LFN which is still a good sized meplat.

I get plenty of accuracy at 50 yards with a WFN (under an inch c-to-c). If I'm shooting something farther out than that, it's just a target so any accurate slug will do (though I've rung 6inch spinner plates several times in a row out at around 120 yards shooting 260grain WFN slugs that hammer those plates like no other). The Lee ROA has shown to produce the most FPE in my rifle to date (a 909 at about 270-285fpe with most medium weight slugs).

Some old-school gun guy once said "pistol rounds don't have a ballistic co-efficient" or something to that affect. Meaning that the short range ballistics of these rifles makes BC a mute point under 100 yards or so where the majority of my shooting takes place. 150-200+ yard shooting may merit something out of the ordinary, though.

[HollowPoint]

Hi all: Many Thanks to those of you who may have participated in this sale. As of now, all the items I listed are sold pending receipt of payment. I am now a little closer to testing my bullets.

This is just a short note to those who may be interested. I will be moving into my formal accuracy testing of the Arc-Angel Bullets within the next couple of weeks.

In an effort to make this testing more convenient, I've decided to part-out/sell my last T/C Contender Carbine setup.

The funds raised by this sale will be used to purchase a High Pressure Carbon Fiber Air Tank and accompanying hoses and such. Without this Carbon Fiber tank I'm afraid I'd be doing more Hand-Pumping than testing.

Please be aware that the phrase, "Hand-Pumping" in no way refers to the act of masturbation.

If you know anyone that may be interested in T/C Contender parts, please steer them to the Swapping and Selling area of this forum. I'm not the only one selling stuff there. Who knows, maybe they'll be interested in something that one of the other sellers has listed.

I'm hoping this notice doesn't go against the policies of this Cast Boolits website. If it does please let me know and I'll remove immediately.

Thanks guys.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

It's been about a month since I last went out in the field to do some shooting.

I took the Sam Yang .45 out to do some rabbit hunting this morning. The weather has finally turned favorable for some morning and evening desert hiking.

Last Saturday I cast up some 155 grain Arc-Angel Bullets that I figured would be absolutely the perfect weight for rabbits. They may have been the perfect weight but they didn't seem to be grouping worth a darn. They were all impacting about a foot to the left of my point of aim at 50 yard and a little higher than the 200 grainers I shot out of this gun the last time I was out.

I also had some 200 grain Devastators left over from a previous outing and a small number of 200 grain Arc-Angel Bullets as well. These slightly heavier bullets both seemed to shoot right to my point of aim; shooting off-hand.

Incidentally, I went to the same spot I was at the last time I took out my Sam Yang. At that time it appeared that there was a cotton tail rabbit under every bush.

I didn't see a single rabbit this time around.

What really surprised me was that I spooked up several Mule-Deer at several different locations as I was trampling along.

I think the reason that the lighter weight Arc-Angel Bullets don't seem to shoot as consistently is because the shorter they are the less driving-band there is to catch the rifling and keep the bullet aligned when it's pushed into the chamber.

If you'll notice in the bullet pics I provided in previous posts, the shorter Arc-Angel Bullets are at their widest at the very tail of the bullet. This appears to give only enough contact area to seal the bore but not enough to center the bullet in the chamber or the bore as it's fired. It actually creates more of a pivot point for the bullet rather than a means to center the bullet.

I haven't tried the heaviest Arc-Angel Bullets yet. I'm still waiting for all the funds I need to purchase one of those Carbon Fiber Air Tanks I've got my eye on. Anyhow, the heaviest Arc-Angel Bullet I can get out of my present/latest mold is 240 grains.

I'm hoping that if the 200 grainers are any indication, then the 240's will do much better.
If the heavier Arc-Angel Bullets don't give me enough increase in performance then, another bullet-design-tweeking will be in order.

Oh well; it felt good to get out again. It will feel even better once I can get to the range for some formal bullet testing.

HollowPoint



(C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano

[Butcher45]

It's been about a month since I last went out in the field to do some shooting.

I took the Sam Yang .45 out to do some rabbit hunting this morning. The weather has finally turned favorable for some morning and evening desert hiking.

Last Saturday I cast up some 155 grain Arc-Angel Bullets that I figured would be absolutely the perfect weight for rabbits. They may have been the perfect weight but they didn't seem to be grouping worth a darn. They were all impacting about a foot to the left of my point of aim at 50 yard and a little higher than the 200 grainers I shot out of this gun the last time I was out.

I also had some 200 grain Devastators left over from a previous outing and a small number of 200 grain Arc-Angel Bullets as well. These slightly heavier bullets both seemed to shoot right to my point of aim; shooting off-hand.

Incidentally, I went to the same spot I was at the last time I took out my Sam Yang. At that time it appeared that there was a cotton tail rabbit under every bush.

I didn't see a single rabbit this time around.

What really surprised me was that I spooked up several Mule-Deer at several different locations as I was trampling along.

I think the reason that the lighter weight Arc-Angel Bullets don't seem to shoot as consistently is because the shorter they are the less driving-band there is to catch the rifling and keep the bullet aligned when it's pushed into the chamber.

If you'll notice in the bullet pics I provided in previous posts, the shorter Arc-Angel Bullets are at their widest at the very tail of the bullet. This appears to give only enough contact area to seal the bore but not enough to center the bullet in the chamber or the bore as it's fired. It actually creates more of a pivot point for the bullet rather than a means to center the bullet.

I haven't tried the heaviest Arc-Angel Bullets yet. I'm still waiting for all the funds I need to purchase one of those Carbon Fiber Air Tanks I've got my eye on. Anyhow, the heaviest Arc-Angel Bullet I can get out of my present/latest mold is 240 grains.

I'm hoping that if the 200 grainers are any indication, then the 240's will do much better.
If the heavier Arc-Angel Bullets don't give me enough increase in performance then, another bullet-design-tweeking will be in order.

Oh well; it felt good to get out again. It will feel even better once I can get to the range for some formal bullet testing.

HollowPoint



(C) Copyright 2010 Tim Montano


Clear something up for me if you will.

You said that the 155grainers "didn't seem to be grouping worth a darn. They were all impacting about a foot to the left of my point of aim at 50 yard and a little higher than the 200 grainers I shot out of this gun the last time I was out."

If they were all impacting at about the same place, why do you think they seem to be inaccurate? From reading your post it gives the impression that you were shooting 155grainers while zero'd for 200grain Devastators, and that they were hitting off paper. Did you see the group they printed?

Do you think they didn't seem to shoot well just because they hit so far away from the 200grainers zero'd POI? Different weight of boolit (even different designs of the same weight) can impact anywhere compared to each-other. Different diameters can print far from other diameters on paper. As an extreme example, I recently had very undersized .452's hitting about 3-4 feet to the right of another boolits zero'd POI@50yards. Lots of different dynamics at play with that valve, and in that barrel, with various hardnesses of alloy. Heavy boolits often impact higher than lighter ones using the same zero (as they are commonly reported to do in C@B revolvers).

A hunting buddy went out on a hunt loading slugs in his 909 that were about 50 grains off of what he had sighted in with (RB/EPP/UG's). He thought it wouldn't make much difference in the POI, which I insisted it would. He was even going to go for a headshot. I told him I doubted that he would hit the head of a coyote with a different load than he zero'd at. We went target shooting the next week, and I had him take a shot at the target with the 200grainers, and it showed that he would have cleanly missed the head of a coyote, and possibly could have missed a body shot it was shooting so high.

It will be nice to see you post groups on paper comparing your boolit designs to the more established/proven stuff to see how they compare. That will be very interesting.

Where are the chrony shot strings? WE WANT CHRONY SHOT STRINGS LOL!

[HollowPoint]

Hi Butcher:

You know, as soon as I'd finished writing my last post/reply I had a feeling that someone would come on and question some of the things I'd just written. I can only blame myself. I don't usually go into any great detail when I write something new.

That lack of detail leaves folks to either wonder what the heck I meant or completely misinterpret what they've just read.

I'll try to answer your questions in the order they were asked.

"If they were all impacting at about the same place, why do you think they seem to be inaccurate?"
I was shooting at a small rock about 50 or so yards away. This small rock was sitting in the middle of a dry sandy wash. I could clearly see the impact craters where each of my shots was hitting; and, as I stated, they were impacting about 12 inches to the left and a little higher than the 200 grainers I shot the last time I was out shooting this gun.

"Did you see the group they printed?" The impact creators were spread out a good 4,5 or 6 inches in that general impact area. I didn't have a tape measure or a camera with me so I'm just guessing at the measurements.

"From reading your post it gives the impression that you were shooting 155grainers while zeroed for 200-grain Devastators, and that they were hitting off paper." That's exactly what I did. When your checking accuracy from one load or another (especially at the close range of 50 yards) there's really no need to adjust the sights. I expected these lighter bullets to have a point of impact different from the 200 grainers. By simply holding my aim at that small rock, (even though the sights were set for the 200 grainers) I could clearly see where the 155's were impacting; and how well they were grouping.

"Do you think they didn't seem to shoot well just because they hit so far away from the 200-grainers zero'd POI?" I think I just coverd this question with my last couple of answers.

In trying to figure out what might be causing these apparent inaccuracies the only thing I could come up with at this time was mentioned in the sentence, "I think the reason that the lighter weight Arc-Angel Bullets don't seem to shoot as consistently is because the shorter they are the less driving-band there is to catch the rifling and keep the bullet aligned when it's pushed into the chamber."

"It will be nice to see you post groups on paper comparing your boolit designs to the more established/proven stuff to see how they compare. That will be very interesting." I completely agree with you here on both counts.

"Where are the chrony shot strings?" I actually have a Brand New Crony that I bought several years ago to check the velocity of my 17 Remington. I never did use it. It's still sitting in the box in my storage room. When I finally start with my bullet testing I'll blow the dust off of it and post some numbers. Right now I think it would be a pointless waste of time.

" WE WANT CHRONY SHOT STRINGS LOL!" You know Butcher, when I look at the number of hits that this particular post has gotten over time and then I look at the names on the replies, I sometimes feel like you and I are the only ones actually present; with an occasional visit from some of the other good-guys on this site. I figure we've each come onto this post/thread at least a couple of thousand times apiece.

I know you've garnered alot of useful info during your run with these Big Bore Air Rifles and it's always good when I learn something new from one of your responses but, it would be nice to hear from someone who may know something that neither one of us has heard of or learned yet.

Is there any body else out there reading these words that has any thoughts or new ideas that can help in this process of coming up with an Optimum Air-Gun-Specific bullet for the Sam Yang Big Bore?

I'm not going to laugh at your ideas. I know what it feels like to be laughed at for thinking something different than the accepted norms of this forum.
And I promise I won't question your intelligence or presume you to be ignorant either. I know what that feels like too.

I guess I'm just needing to know that it's not just me and Butcher45 trying to teach each other what, (for the most part) we already know.

HollowPoint

[Pepe Ray]

The numbers may be slightly misleading.
I'm very interested in the subject. I know nothing of it beyond what I'm learning here, so it would be presumptuous of me to make suggestions.
Being an O.F't, with too much time on his hands, I "hit" the forum frequently and always look for your posts. If you both are in a conversation you may get several "hits" per day from me alone. And it must be obvious that I'm NOT the only interested viewier.
Love it!!
Carry on,
Pepe Ray

[Butcher45]

Cool......thanks for clearing that up for me.





I know you've garnered alot of useful info during your run with these Big Bore Air Rifles and it's always good when I learn something new from one of your responses but, it would be nice to hear from someone who may know something that neither one of us has heard of or learned yet.


I too would like to see more folks involved here, as this thread has somewhat evolved into a tennis match between ourselves. I have at times been holding out on responding so as to raise the percentage of input from others (somewhere in this thread you noticed I hadn't responded recently, and wondered where I was).

Even in the small world of bigbore airguns, there aren't many people doing (or at least sharing) real-deal boolit testing.

[Butcher45]

Thought you all would like to see the replacement cocking lever I had machined. Looks like this one will last.......it just needs a little belt-sanding to round-out the back corners to fit the back of the hammerslot, and maybe a sleeve for the lever.


http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/P1020049.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/P1020050.jpg

[HollowPoint]

Hey Butcher:

That looks pretty cool. It's kind of shiny. Is it made out of Stainless? From the looks of the underside it appears that it was threaded onto the base and then possibly spot-welded in place to keep it from coming loose.

You can tell just by looking at it that it's way stronger than the factory version. It always gets me when an otherwise decent gun design is put on the market with just the bare minimum acceptable strength on critical components like the cocking levers on the Sam Yangs.

Hey Butcher, I got a PM from your buddy Terry informing me that he's wanting to sell his one year old Carbon Fiber Air Tank. I didn't read his PM till this morning so it may be that he's already sold the tank.

I mentioned to him in my initial reply that I had just gone out yesterday and picked up the last of the funds I was waiting for to buy the Air Tank I've had my eye on for the last few months.

I just finished a last-ditch PM just before checking this thread. I was hoping that Terry had a chance to read my reply before selling his tank to someone else. In this most recent PM to him I told him that I'd wait till tomorrow before I went ahead and ordered a Brand New CF Tank.

Hopefully he'll get back to me before then.

Once I get some of this bullet testing out of the way I plan on doing some Internal Component modification and replacement on this Sam Yang. I was looking it over the other day while I was cleaning it and noticed a few things that could be improved without making any permanent alterations to the gun itself.

I'm sure you've noticed how the hammer sort of drags along the inside of the cylinder that it fits into. I've thought about turning/milling a new hammer and using roller bearings to keep it centered in the cylinder and smoothing out its travel.

I think that, that in addition to a slightly stronger hammer spring should give me a slight increase in power without having to mess with the valve.

Do you have any pictures of the valve itself? I'd like to take a look at the valve that the hammer rams into without having to dismantle my rifle again. I have an idea that may make having to increase the diameter of the valve opening unnecessary.

As long as these air rifles have been around and do-it-yourselfer's tinkering with them, I'm sure others have contemplated the same modifications. I just don't want to do any permanent changes until I've exhausted all the easier less invasive modifications first.

Well, that's it for now. If you read this post before Terry does, maybe you can let him know that I am interested in his tank. (if he hasn't already sold it)

HollowPoint

[Butcher45]

My friend Terry posted his pygmy tank for sale on the Yellow Classifieds.....sold in two minutes!

A hammer-guide would be great.....the tube my hammer rides in is very rough, and has contributed to problems with hammer alignment in the past (partially due to deformed cocking levers).

I don't know whether or not I've seen/have pictures of the 909S valve. I'll see what I can find.

[HollowPoint]

It's been a real long while since I posted anything new on this thread.

In fact, I'd forgotten all about it until just today when I went out to test some new Paper Patched
bullets for my K31.

I know I mentioned is several of my previous post on this specific thread that I would post results from the bullets I made up for my Sam Yang 45 caliber air rifle; and I still intend to do so.

However, here in the Arizona Desert, the weather has turned just right for doing so many of the other enjoyable outdoor things I like to do that testing these Air Gun bullets right now just seemed like a crime against nature.

There's coyotes out there waiting for me to educate them. Also, they've stopped the water flow on the lower Salt River which creates nice pools full of large mouth bass just waiting for my to wet my canoe and my fishing line over them.

In spite of that I felt compelled to add this short note of apology to those of you who may have been following this thread in anticipation of charted velocities and pictures of targets.

As already stated, I intend to do that but not at the neglect of my other guns, toys and projects. I hope you all will bare with me. With any luck at all this testing will take place before or at about the same time our Game And Fish department sees fit to change some of the statutes regarding what can or can't be legally hunted with these Big Bore Air Rifles.

As usual, your comments and suggestions are invited and hoped for.

Thanks for your patience.

HollowPoint