44 vs 45 with the chrony......

[tek4260]

Well, I guess my little shooting session yesterday is not very scientific, but I tried to make it equal using what I had on hand.

44- OMSBH cut to 4 5/8, vel 1087
45- NMBH factory 4 5/8, vel 1198

44- 300gr cast Keith over 21.0 gr of H-110. This is all I could fit in the case without compressing it too much. This is over max according to my book. I am sure more powder could be used if this were a WFN type boolit with more nose weight. But, the 45 was also a Keith so I wanted to keep it fair, even though the 44 boolit sticks out of the case much more than the 45.

45- 325gr cast Keith over 22.0 gr of H-110. This is what I had loaded. The start load is 21 and the max is 24. I figure 1 grain of powder doesn't make up for the 25 grain difference in boolit.

So I ask the question, how does the 44 beat the 45???

[felix]

It does not. ... felix

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

How was accuracy?

[docone31]

Yeah it does!
When I shot my Chrony, the .45 did not wreck the chrony as badly as the .44.
The .44 made a profound hole in the steel.

[Heavy lead]

Yeah it does!
When I shot my Chrony, the .45 did not wreck the chrony as badly as the .44.
The .44 made a profound hole in the steel.

Naw, that just means the .44 is not as accurate:shock:..................or more, depending on what you were trying to accomplish.[smilie=s:

[docone31]

Meekly stated,
I was trying to get a speed check on my new loads.
The .45, at least the chrony was useable. The .44, it was toast, big time.
My early days of pistol shooting. My coach had just blown his off the stand also.
I laughed untill I did the same thing.

[S.R.Custom]

It's a physics thing... all else being equal (load pressure, bullet weight, gun spec, etc.) the .45 will show more velocity. It all comes down to pressure vs. area. The more area you can apply pressure to, the greater the resultant force.

(It's also the reason that when all else is the same, an engine with a fat bore and a short stroke will make more horsepower than an engine of the same displacement with a narrower bore and a longer stroke.)

[9.3X62AL]

I wouldn't stand downrange from either one, thank you.

Some of these caliber-related arm-rassling matches shed a lot more heat than light. With either of those loads placed well, you'll have venison regardless of caliber.

[tek4260]

I wouldn't stand downrange from either one, thank you.

Some of these caliber-related arm-rassling matches shed a lot more heat than light. With either of those loads placed well, you'll have venison regardless of caliber.

I know. Guess I love to stir the pot! But since I got my chrony, I wonder what others are doing to get these 1400 to 1500 fps loads that everyone brags about from their snubbies. Heck, I only got 1200 from 22gr of 4227 and a 240 SWC. I thought that was supposed to be the classic 1400fps 44mag load.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I do not own a chrony but I have played around with them before. The 44mag does seem to beat the 45 when it comes to velocity and boolits under the 240gr range. When it comes to pushing the heavies the 45colt with the greater case capacity always seems to win both accuracy and velocity wise. I personally always have preferred the 45colt.

[Whitworth]

It does not. ... felix


Exactly!

[Lloyd Smale]

thats a fair comparison and no doubt the 45 can be loaded to higher levels as it holds more powder. One thing though is that if you used two differnt guns, even the same identical models that velocity swing could go the other way. Ive seen many cases were velocity varied a couple hundred fps between two identical guns. I had a pair of consecutive number ruger 45 colt small framed vaqueros with 7.5 inch barrels and one would consistantly shoot a about a 150 fps faster then the other. Dont take this as an argument though. Im the first to preach that handguns dont increase in power near as much by speed as they do by caliber. Ill also admit that i prefer the 44 hands down to the 45. I have many of both but shoot 44s much more often. Why? not because they can be loaded up to power levels higher then a 45. I rarely run any gun at the absolute max level anymore. I like 44s because there just easier to find accurate loads for and theres just many more bullet and mold options for the 44. My heavy loads for both run a 300-320 grain bullet at 1100 fps. Something either will do with the proper powder. Ive pushed 340s to 1200 fps in a 5.5 inch accusport bisley using a compressed charge of 296 and cases showed no signs of excessive pressure. If you look at the linebaugh site and check out the old penetration tests youll see that load did exceptional well that year. It beat out all the other 44 and 45 colt loads and was only beat by two 475 loads and one 500 load. the what is better 44vs45 is kind of a silly argument. Both are dammed good rounds and no self respecting handgun fanatic would be without at least a couple of each.
Well, I guess my little shooting session yesterday is not very scientific, but I tried to make it equal using what I had on hand.

44- OMSBH cut to 4 5/8, vel 1087
45- NMBH factory 4 5/8, vel 1198

44- 300gr cast Keith over 21.0 gr of H-110. This is all I could fit in the case without compressing it too much. This is over max according to my book. I am sure more powder could be used if this were a WFN type boolit with more nose weight. But, the 45 was also a Keith so I wanted to keep it fair, even though the 44 boolit sticks out of the case much more than the 45.

45- 325gr cast Keith over 22.0 gr of H-110. This is what I had loaded. The start load is 21 and the max is 24. I figure 1 grain of powder doesn't make up for the 25 grain difference in boolit.

So I ask the question, how does the 44 beat the 45???

[44man]

I know. Guess I love to stir the pot! But since I got my chrony, I wonder what others are doing to get these 1400 to 1500 fps loads that everyone brags about from their snubbies. Heck, I only got 1200 from 22gr of 4227 and a 240 SWC. I thought that was supposed to be the classic 1400fps 44mag load.
Shoot until the gun starts to get real hot and watch 4227 flatten primers and get faster and faster in the .44. This powder works great in some calibers but will never go near my .44 or .45.
The worst day of my life was when I tried to shoot 4227 at an IHMSA shoot. I thought my gun had broken or the barrel bent it was so bad.
Bullets got so fast I was 16 clicks higher then normal at 200 meters and hit the ground 50 meters short by the time I got to the last ram.
This powder does not like heat. Funny, it does work in the .357 max.

[Ed K]

If one were to consider the relatively simple science of hydraulics as an analogous case the reasons are readily apparent

[outdoorfan]

Well, I guess my little shooting session yesterday is not very scientific, but I tried to make it equal using what I had on hand.

44- OMSBH cut to 4 5/8, vel 1087
45- NMBH factory 4 5/8, vel 1198

44- 300gr cast Keith over 21.0 gr of H-110. This is all I could fit in the case without compressing it too much. This is over max according to my book. I am sure more powder could be used if this were a WFN type boolit with more nose weight. But, the 45 was also a Keith so I wanted to keep it fair, even though the 44 boolit sticks out of the case much more than the 45.

45- 325gr cast Keith over 22.0 gr of H-110. This is what I had loaded. The start load is 21 and the max is 24. I figure 1 grain of powder doesn't make up for the 25 grain difference in boolit.

So I ask the question, how does the 44 beat the 45???


I have a 4 5/8 inch .45 NMBH, and with a very stiff charge of H110 at 23.5 grains behind a 335 grain LBT I could get 1200 fps. It seems you have a fast gun compared to mine.

[cptinjeff]

If one were to consider the relatively simple science of hydraulics as an analogous case the reasons are readily apparent


I think this argument DOES hold water[smilie=1:

[smkummer]

I was getting 1350 to 1400 out of my NM SBH with the factory 7 1/2 barrel and factory wood stocks. Classic 21 grains 2400 and Kieth 245 SWC. Recoil was not nice. Plow handle grips, short barrels and hot loads don't make for a extended range experience.

[Calamity Jake]

The 44 does beat the 45<<<<<<if you compare only factory ammo as the 45C is loaded down for the Colt SAA

It's a liability thing ya know.

As you've found out, handloads are another story.

[hunter64]

I was getting 1350 to 1400 out of my NM SBH with the factory 7 1/2 barrel and factory wood stocks. Classic 21 grains 2400 and Kieth 245 SWC. Recoil was not nice. Plow handle grips, short barrels and hot loads don't make for a extended range experience.

Try that same load in a model 29 and you will appreciate your plow handle grips.:-o

[canyon-ghost]

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/41002.jpg


I pulled a starting load from Loadbooks with 2400 for my 41 mag. The 220 Keith is supposed to start at 15.7 grains. Loaded in my NMBH, it chronoed at 1315 fps. I'd say you're loading the 44 mag way, way too soft. Next range session, I blew the 2x2 behind the target board in half (shouldn't have hit that close to the bull at 50 meters) using an even lighter load.
A 44 mag at 1000 fps? Seems to me that defeats the purpose of using a magnum. From what little I gather about it, a 45 LC should be a great trail gun for subsonic. I'd rather use something that doesn't require hearing protection for short range. But shoot a magnum that slow? Nah, that just hurts your ears and doesn't accomplish anything. A 44 Magnum is made for way too much more speed and downrange punch that ordinarily isn't required where a 45 Colt is used.

[canyon-ghost]

I figure 1 grain of powder doesn't make up for the 25 grain difference in boolit.

That's not very scientific, it's also not 'all things being equal' either. Comparing apples to oranges is the same old 'beating a dead horse'.
Ron

[Heavy lead]

A 44 mag at 1000 fps? Seems to me that defeats the purpose of using a magnum. From what little I gather about it, a 45 LC should be a great trail gun for subsonic. I'd rather use something that doesn't require hearing protection for short range. But shoot a magnum that slow? Nah, that just hurts your ears and doesn't accomplish anything. A 44 Magnum is made for way too much more speed and downrange punch that ordinarily isn't required where a 45 Colt is used.


So are you saying that a 44 loaded down is louder than a 45 loaded down?
Just because it has "magnum" in its name means nothing, both can be successfully and accurately run at 900 to 1000 fps, I wouldn't shoot either without hearing protection. IME they both shine (in the right revolver) with strong loads, but can be run slower pretty fair.

[Milanodan]

It's a physics thing... all else being equal (load pressure, bullet weight, gun spec, etc.) the .45 will show more velocity. It all comes down to pressure vs. area. The more area you can apply pressure to, the greater the resultant force.
(It's also the reason that when all else is the same, an engine with a fat bore and a short stroke will make more horsepower than an engine of the same displacement with a narrower bore and a longer stroke.)

Not to start a big battle, but that engine analogy isn't quite right. The primary reason why *most* big bore engines have a HP advantage is because larger valves can be used with a bigger bore.

Your first paragraph is right on the money. :mrgreen:

[white eagle]

I own both cals and shoot them alot of times back to back or I will pick one up while the other is cooling down
I can tell you that given the same level of loads you can definately tell what you shoot the 45 colt just a lot more thump

[Lloyd Smale]

larger pistons give more area for he combustion gases to work on and a bigger bore means more power no matter what the stroke. Its the same reason a 45 colt will push an equal weight bullet at the same velocity using less pressure. The shorter stroke in a motor does not add hp it allows for faster reving (more rpms) Making more hp at higher rpms. In most cases a motor with a smaller bore and longer stroke making the same displacement will produce more low end torque though. Same goes with valve size. Larger valves are great for high rpm motors but the bigger valves dont have good intake velocity so low end suffers and so does gas milage at cruising speed. Same goes with a sixgun to a certain extent. A smaller bore will not allow for the same top end performance but its much more effecient with all but the wide open stuff.
Not to start a big battle, but that engine analogy isn't quite right. The primary reason why *most* big bore engines have a HP advantage is because larger valves can be used with a bigger bore.

Your first paragraph is right on the money. :mrgreen:

[felix]

Excellent, Lloyd! ... felix

[Milanodan]

[QUOTE=Lloyd Smale;955372In most cases a motor with a smaller bore and longer stroke making the same displacement will produce more low end torque though. [/QUOTE]

That's really a myth because of all the old long stroke engines of the past. With everything else equal (valve size, cams, squeeze, etc) there won't be much difference at all.

The big bore engine can take advantage of bigger valves, and that's what makes the difference, not the B/S ratio itself.

[9.3X62AL]

I should make some popcorn! :)

During the time Elmer Keith was expanding the potential of the 44 Special with his #429421 boolits, he stated that "1200 FPS is all you need" in the context of game-taking. When the 44 Magnum came into being with its 1400+ FPS to a 240 grain bullet, I suppose the factories (gun and ammo) thought 'if 1200 was good, 1400 is better'.

I DO know that for me in either the Model 29-series S&Ws or the Ruger Super Blackhawk, a 1200 FPS load is a lot more comfortable for sustained shooting than is the 1400 FPS beast. My present Redhawk tames the 1400-class loads pretty well, and the 1200-class loads are almost docile. Of course, a gun-bearer for that Redhawk would be nice to have along.......but I digress.

This is another of those "apples vs. oranges" comparisons to a degree, but let's limit the context to pure ballistics--for the sake of discussion. Among my more treasured possessions is an 1897-vintage Winchester Model 1973 carbine in 44-40 WCF caliber. It served as a ranch rifle for the first 35 years of its life, and accounted for deer in the hundreds and at least 2 marauding black bears that my grandmother saw getting ballistically rehabilitated. Ballistics for that carbine are given as 200 grain boolits/bullets at 1200 FPS, and I think that latter figure is pretty optimistic. My point here is that both the 44 Magnum and Ruger-level 45 Colt loadings are far superior ballistically to the 1873-level 44-40. In light of the good work done by Great-Grandpa's '73 in 44-40, why do we continue to beat ourselves senseless with these monster loadings in either caliber? Dead is dead.

[canyon-ghost]

Heavy Lead,
No, not saying both loaded down. I simply mean that you shouldn't load the 45 Colt up to 1315 fps, and you can a 44 Magnum. At that level, the magnum is loud. Not inclined to speculate on the sound level of a good 45 blowing up. 45 Colt loads to 1000 fps, magnums don't. Wouldn't mind having a good 45LC either.


.

[MGySgt]

For my 2 cents - This experiment will work for Rugers, FA's and BFR's.

I don't think you would want to repeat it with S&W, Tarus, etc..

The 45C in it's own right is an excellent cartridge with 250 - 300 grain cast at 900 - 1000. Most loads in this range is safe in all new 45 colts.

44 mag - I really like 280 - 300 grains at 1100.

These types of loads you guns will last forever. Both rounds are great hunting rounds or even for self defense.

This of course is my humble opinion.

Drew

[Lloyd Smale]

it may not effect torque as much as displacement will but it will effect torque. the longer the stroke the more time the combustion gasses push the piston and that translates into torque on the crank. Granted if you get rediculous and have a very small bore and a long stroke you will not make good power but compare to chev motors. One a 350 stroked to 383 and the other a 400 small block destroked to 377 in just about every possible setups with these two motors the 383 will produce more torque and the 377 more hp. Seen enough of them built and tested to know this for a fact.
That's really a myth because of all the old long stroke engines of the past. With everything else equal (valve size, cams, squeeze, etc) there won't be much difference at all.

The big bore engine can take advantage of bigger valves, and that's what makes the difference, not the B/S ratio itself.

[mike in co]

i guess i miss the question....

A 45 COLT operating pressure is 14kpsi, and a 44 REM MAG is 36kpsi.....

so you are not comparing 44 mag to 45 colt.....

if so rem mag wins every time.

now if the question is can a 45 colt be loaded hotter than a 44 rem mag IN SIMILAR hands guns, the answer is UNKNOW till you load both to failure. did you in fact load a 45 colt hotter than a 44 mag , YES. one gun one case..with one bullet weight...not the end of the world, not the generic answer to your question.

go into a store and buy a box of factory ammo for both guns with similar weight and tell us what you get( naw you do not have ro shoot cowgirl loads in the 45colt)

my guess is that you are operating close to 100% above the listed spec for the 45 colt, lets do the same for the 44 mag and see where it goes ??( other than into pcs in your hand)
a 300 grainer is doing over 1600 fps at 45kpsi in a 44.....

yeah what you did was nice, but it aint the end of the world for 44's....

mike in co
(ps qucikload says 17.9 gr of aa9 will do aprox 1200plus from a 5" bbl in a 44 mag)

[Lloyd Smale]

ya but theres not to many of us mike that buy factory ammo on this site and its about common knowlege that a large frame 45 ruger will take loads at twice the pressure levels factory ammo is loaded. As a matter of fact theres companys that sell it loaded to those specs. So a guy can buy factory 45 ammo that is as powerful as 44. Dont get me wrong im a strong supporter of the 44mag. I still think its just an easier round to work with and can do anything the 45 can and if i had to go down to one handgun it would no doubt be a 44. 45s are kind of like 41s in that guys get wrapped up in the romance. they read all those famous gun writters saying that the 41 and 45 are just so much cooler then the 44 and that any self respecting gun nut should want them. I went through this phaze myself and after 10s of thousands of rounds tested for accuracy penetration and used in hunting ive come full circle back to the round that just works. the 44mag. I guess i just dont care if someone thinks im not as cool as someone hotrodding a 45. Been there done that.

[felix]

Lloyd, again I agree totally with your statement above. It all boils down to torque versus horsepower. Using the same scenario, the 41 supplies the most torque (penetration) as does the 45 the most horsepower, given the same load parameters. The 44 just seems to approximate the most "square" motor design, i.e., the best overall performance potential which is available to shade tree mechanics. ... felix

[Milanodan]

It all boils down to torque versus horsepower.

Really trying hard as a n00b here not to get into an argument, but the whole torque vs HP thing has been discussed to death on various engine forums.

Bottom line, it's HP that counts, at low, mid, and high RPM. Gears, etc. multiply torque but lose HP, so with the right transmission you can get 40 bazillion ft. lb of torque from a small lawnmower engine.

Torque is merely a component of the almighty HP. Torque does not include the time factor, but of course HP does.

Gotta go buy me some more 2400 today. Fortunately TCCI (Thunderbird Cartridge) is close by. :grin:

[Whitworth]

Really trying hard as a n00b here not to get into an argument, but the whole torque vs HP thing has been discussed to death on various engine forums.

Bottom line, it's HP that counts, at low, mid, and high RPM. Gears, etc. multiply torque but lose HP, so with the right transmission you can get 40 bazillion ft. lb of torque from a small lawnmower engine.

Torque is merely a component of the almighty HP. Torque does not include the time factor, but of course HP does.

Gotta go buy me some more 2400 today. Fortunately TCCI (Thunderbird Cartridge) is close by. :grin:

No, torque is what actually does the work and is measurable while horsepower is calculated. I agree with Lloyd on this. I've spent much time on the dyno (hey, it was great job, too bad it didn't pay more!) with many a compbination. Horsepower, much like muzzle energy is a great marketing tool. Not saying HP is insignificant, just that torque may be more significant.

Now, can we get back to ballistics?? :bigsmyl2:

[Lloyd Smale]

You probably werent around in the old days of the 60s and 70s hotrods. Big blocks and big torque. Cant forget a buddys old buick GS. It was only around 375 hp but put out 500 ftlbs of torque and i see it kick but on hemis and big block fords and chevs (includeing mine) that put out 75 more hp and weighted a 1000 lbs less. A good way to think about it is like this. It takes torque to get something moving and hp to maintain the rate of movement. A motor can make 500 peak hp but only do it at 6500 rpm and have half that at say 4000rpm. A better motor is one that can make 400 hp and do it from 2000-5000 rpm and lay down big torque numbers on the low end. High reving high hp motors work on the track but in the real world on the streets its torque that rules.
Really trying hard as a n00b here not to get into an argument, but the whole torque vs HP thing has been discussed to death on various engine forums.

Bottom line, it's HP that counts, at low, mid, and high RPM. Gears, etc. multiply torque but lose HP, so with the right transmission you can get 40 bazillion ft. lb of torque from a small lawnmower engine.

Torque is merely a component of the almighty HP. Torque does not include the time factor, but of course HP does.

Gotta go buy me some more 2400 today. Fortunately TCCI (Thunderbird Cartridge) is close by. :grin:

[Lloyd Smale]

felix i like your thoughts on the 44 mag being like a square bored motor. Right in the middle and it does everything well. Just a reliable good performer without all the flash and gun yuppies cheering it on. Kind of like a 350 chev. Lots claim to be better but its still what the others are measured by.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Look at a diesel engine they are built with torque in mind, and lots of it!

I have a 44 Mag . . . I don't have to wind it up, but I can if I want to . . .

[NSP64]

I used to load 240 gr Jwords to 1800 fps with masive loads of H110 in a 14" barreled single shot.:bigsmyl2:

[dubber123]

Lloyd, being we are so far off track, heres a small big block I just screwed together on the way cheap side.. Hopefully I'll be able to crack 200 HP with it... http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/paul014.jpg

[felix]

Again, very good, Lloyd! Horsepower gets pretty meaningless when jets and rockets are involved. Those machines tend to use "pounds of thrust" to get around the torque versus horsepower debate as made reference to by Dano from Milan. The B29 engine was remarkable in that it produced 2000+ HP at rated its RPM. But, it also had 18 cylinders, which like gears, multiply torque accordingly. So much so that the HP was very high at a fairly low RPM. Don't remember the rated RPM without Google's help. ... felix

[Mk42gunner]

In my opinion, the only reason we have a .44 magnum today is because a Colt SAA does not have a big enough cylinder to contain loads that are possible with the size of the case. If you read Elmer Keith's writing, he went with the .44 Special to get thicker cylinder walls, after blowing up a .45 Colt. Thus he (and others) did a lot of development work on high pressure 44 loads; with not so much being done on high pressure 45 loads until Dick Casull started getting publicity for the .454.

I belive that either caliber can be loaded to do whatever job needs to be done; in the appropriate gun. If some thing is too big to shoot with either one, you need a rifle, (or naval gunfire support).

Robert

[felix]

I agree, Robert. Talk about the accuracy of the naval 16 inchers. A football field at 26 miles which was a guaranteed hit during the Viet war. That's equivalent to 1.5 inches at a hunnert. Computers did the trajectory analysis and the firing based upon coordinates of the target and ship together. ... felix

[cajun shooter]

I have been around motors and guns almost all of my 63 years and I will tell you this. To go from point a -b torque will be there first. Take a Harley motor and do some valve work. Install Chevolet 2.02 intakes and 1.73 exhaust and a 5in stroke and you best be tied on. The 45 Colt not LC that was noted on another post has been sucking the rear only because of so many attorneys and Colt SAA hanging around. There are still people who believe that the Colt of today is limited to 15,000 type loads. Put that case in a heavy Ruger or Freedom Arms and hold on. That motor with the high rise is kicking except the distributor should be in the rear.

[Whitworth]

Lloyd, being we are so far off track, heres a small big block I just screwed together on the way cheap side.. Hopefully I'll be able to crack 200 HP with it... http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/paul014.jpg


383??

Here's the last 340 I screwed together -- definitely not built for torque production!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/DSCN3272.jpg

Sorry for the thread hijacking!

Now back to the .45 Colt and the .44 magnum......:smile:

[docone31]

So, what is wrong with some double pumpers?
Sure is better than shooting the Chrony.
I notice this distributor is in the correct location also.

[Whitworth]

So, what is wrong with some double pumpers?
Sure is better than shooting the Chrony.
I notice this distributor is in the correct location also.

Not a thing! The more the merrier!

[dubber123]

Whitworth, yes, it's a .030" 383 as a side experiment for my '67 Barracuda. Distributor in the front = sensible. Distributor in the back = PITA... :)

[Whitworth]

Whitworth, yes, it's a .030" 383 as a side experiment for my '67 Barracuda. Distributor in the front = sensible. Distributor in the back = PITA... :)

Yes they are a pain in the _____! I have a '68 Barracuda.....would love to hear about your project. How about we take this conversation to PMs??

[dubber123]

Yes they are a pain in the _____! I have a '68 Barracuda.....would love to hear about your project. How about we take this conversation to PMs??

Good idea. I believe we are the only 2 Mopar fans on here... The Chebby and Furd guys will get miffed shortly anyways.. :lol:

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,

LlOYD really hit it on the head in his 1st post. And if I had the money I would own a 45lc as well as my beloved 44.

[Lloyd Smale]

Dubber and milidon you have me drewling!!! Been a chev man most of my life with a false start on mopars. My first fast car was in high school it was a 440 gtx when i graduaded and went in the service i bought my first new car a 340 duster, those 340s had alot of potential and it looks like you found all of it dubber!!. After that it was chevs and will be till I die with the only exception in the lot being a 87 grand national buick i bought new. Now that was a sweet streat car. A grand worth of bolt ons and it was turning low 12s on drag radials and still got 23mpg going down the highway with the air on! Its been five years since i had a car project. With all the back surgerys I just lost touch with it. Im going to have to get something going. Those motors are about like showing me a picture of a custom 6 gun. By the way make mine a small block chev or a 44mag!

[Whitworth]

Dubber and milidon you have me drewling!!! Been a chev man most of my life with a false start on mopars. My first fast car was in high school it was a 440 gtx when i graduaded and went in the service i bought my first new car a 340 duster, those 340s had alot of potential and it looks like you found all of it dubber!!. After that it was chevs and will be till I die with the only exception in the lot being a 87 grand national buick i bought new. Now that was a sweet streat car. A grand worth of bolt ons and it was turning low 12s on drag radials and still got 23mpg going down the highway with the air on! Its been five years since i had a car project. With all the back surgerys I just lost touch with it. Im going to have to get something going. Those motors are about like showing me a picture of a custom 6 gun. By the way make mine a small block chev or a 44mag!

Dang Lloyd, that's my 340! It was a little monster especially in the 2,900-lb car in which it lived.

[Frank]

Whitworth said
Dang Lloyd, that's my 340! It was a little monster especially in the 2,900-lb car in which it lived.
The GTX was too heavy at 4,020#. Adding a set of gears sure helped, but you can't beat a light car. I got beat bad by a Z28, cammed 350, 4 speed and 4:11's. Then I got really beat by a guy with a Falcon, built 289, automatic and 4.56's. :oops:

[Whitworth]

Whitworth said
The GTX was too heavy at 4,020#. Adding a set of gears sure helped, but you can't beat a light car. I got beat bad by a Z28, cammed 350, 4 speed and 4:11's. Then I got really beat by a guy with a Falcon, built 289, automatic and 4.56's. :oops:

Power to weight ratio......

[Lloyd Smale]

Mine was a 440 sixpack with 410s and i still got pushed around by hot small blocks like the 350 and 365 hp chev IIs It would run respectalby but was heavy. But to be honest it really got smoked by a neigbors ls6 chevele and the gs454 buick i refered to earlier. Another thing ill tell you that you might not believe is that my old 6 cyl turbo grand national would have walked on it and just about all the rest of them after a few tweeks and it was dammed near as heavy as the gtx. Then you can go to what is available now like the vette, new camero and new challenger hemi and theyd better all look out. those things will do low 12s on streat tires and get 20 mpg and do it for 200,000 milesand out corner a race car from the 60s or 70s . In all realiaty the golden age of muscle cars is right now today. Just wish i wasnt on a fixed income and could afford 30k for a car!!
Whitworth said
The GTX was too heavy at 4,020#. Adding a set of gears sure helped, but you can't beat a light car. I got beat bad by a Z28, cammed 350, 4 speed and 4:11's. Then I got really beat by a guy with a Falcon, built 289, automatic and 4.56's. :oops:

[Lloyd Smale]

they are a centimental favorite of mine too. Im a bowtie man through and through but still love the old rapid transit system!!
Good idea. I believe we are the only 2 Mopar fans on here... The Chebby and Furd guys will get miffed shortly anyways.. :lol:

[No_1]

Cars and guns. My 2 favorite things in life (besides eating)!

R.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I do remember Elmer Keith writing toward the end of his career that he thought the factories were loading the 44mag much too hot. He complained that it was not the type of ammo that should be fired in a hand gun. I have owned three pistols chambered for the round and I still have a Model 29 and IMO over 20 grains of H110 behind a 240 grain bullet seizes to be fun in a hurry. I know rubber grips help some but not that much. I personally like a 200 grain bullet going 900 fps. The complaint I have with the 45Colt is the case is too big. Some of the early Colt sa's blew up using black powder. Of course they had balloon head cases at that time. As for the really big rounds like the 458 wham bamm or the 500 Atomic or 480 Ruger or whatever. I wouldn't hold one and fire it if you gave it to me. I do think the 41 Mag is a great round and I have carbide dies and plenty of brass. I don't own a pistol chambered for it. I really can't justify buying another pistol, especially since I no longer have a range to shoot one.

[dubber123]

they are a centimental favorite of mine too. Im a bowtie man through and through but still love the old rapid transit system!!

Lloyd, ya gotta see that F.A.S.T. class Hemi Road Runner some day. Same body as the GTX, (In fact thats what this car really is, just with all the fancy trim pulled). I saw it set the record at 10.18 134 Mph in the 1/4. Cast exhaust manifolds, origional carbs and intake, origional heads, no Nitrous. All on a 6" Polyglass tire... Now that car will make you scratch your head! Oh, and about weight, he has an extra 300 pounds of it bolted in the trunk for traction. ;-)

[Lloyd Smale]

where are they getting all the power? the way i figure in a car that weights what a RR does it would take near a 1000 hp to turn a 10 flat or near that!! With stock exhaust manifolds and that old technology duel quad intake it seems about impossible. tell you what though just cam technology has come so far id bet a high tech cam would really wake up one of those old hemis. Hemis were bad ass stock. There were two of them racing the streets around here when i was young. One superbird and one cuda. the local ls6 and gs buick would mop up on them though. The cuda just didnt hook up well but ran like a scalded rabbit when it did. I saw him loose alot of races where he was comming on strong at the end. the superbird was a heavy roadrunner with even more weight tacked on with that nose and spoiler and the guy running it was kind of a dweeb anyway. I actually beat him on a number of occasions with my gtx. We live in a small area but back in the 60s and 70s we had a pretty big air force base here and just about every type of fast car made was bought by those GIs. Ive allways like the mopars. there just cool but learned to many lessons handing over 100 dollar bills that came very hard to a high school kid that the General rulled the streets. Nothing ran like those Ls6 454s they put out the massive torque of a big block and reved like a small block.

[Whitworth]

The GTX with all of the additional trim and ammenities was quite a bit heavier than a Road Runner. Don't be fooled by its size. That uni-body construction cut lots of weight over similarly sized full framed cars like GM produced.

I lost lots of races as a youngster too, oh but I learned!:bigsmyl2:

[Lloyd Smale]

A guy forgets how big those cars were. I pulled up to the local holiday the other day and a guy had a restored super bee and i had to check it out. Seemed about twice as big as i remembered! Differnt world back then. thinking back on the old cheif of police in our town. He had a plymouth sport fury with a 440 that he had swapped a tri power onto and used to show up at our out in the toolies streat races with. He didnt care if we raced out of town as long as we didnt tear up town. I even saw the old squad cars lined up a few times.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres an eye opener that will show how far technology has came. Ah hell, i cant get a proper link to appear but it was a diesel crew cab f350 lifted 4x4 doing an 11.42 quarter!

[Whitworth]

heres an eye opener that will show how far technology has came. Ah hell, i cant get a proper link to appear but it was a diesel crew cab f350 lifted 4x4 doing an 11.42 quarter!


It's crazy, isn't it?

[uncle joe]

Meekly stated,
I was trying to get a speed check on my new loads.
The .45, at least the chrony was useable. The .44, it was toast, big time.
My early days of pistol shooting. My coach had just blown his off the stand also.
I laughed untill I did the same thing.

just an idea, but if I ever get lucky enough to be able to afford a chrony I think i will make a stand for it that has a half inch thick plate to guard against friendly fire ;-)

[uncle joe]

larger pistons give more area for he combustion gases to work on and a bigger bore means more power no matter what the stroke. Its the same reason a 45 colt will push an equal weight bullet at the same velocity using less pressure. The shorter stroke in a motor does not add hp it allows for faster reving (more rpms) Making more hp at higher rpms. In most cases a motor with a smaller bore and longer stroke making the same displacement will produce more low end torque though. Same goes with valve size. Larger valves are great for high rpm motors but the bigger valves dont have good intake velocity so low end suffers and so does gas milage at cruising speed. Same goes with a sixgun to a certain extent. A smaller bore will not allow for the same top end performance but its much more effecient with all but the wide open stuff.

as one of my friends (a race fan/machinist) once told me
NOTHING BEATS CUBIC INCHES

[felix]

All this reminds me of the old days when BR was just getting started. Hopping up standard guns to get accuracy. It wasn't long until BR guns were made from scratch because the sport became more and more demanding. Now, making a diesel run is sorta' goin' backwards, about the same as bringing tubes and vinyl back into the hi-fi arena to get that little extra performance. Talk about splitting hairs! About cars, though, I remain a torque fan. The use of electric motors is the only way in today's climate to get that big stroke performance. But, please, allow us to eliminate the current limiters, or at least allow us to manually adjust them from within the cab for the "track", highway, town. I know from experience that "track" use will be used very, very sparingly. The electricity cost would be prohibitive for that amount of fun when used too often. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

you would have loved a grand national felix. They were all about torque. That tubo v6 cranked out big block torque and redlined at only about 5500 rpm. Set up properly they would run 0-60 with any muscle car ever produced back them.

[Changeling]

you would have loved a grand national felix. They were all about torque. That tubo v6 cranked out big block torque and redlined at only about 5500 rpm. Set up properly they would run 0-60 with any muscle car ever produced back them.


Try pricing a Grand National now!!! What makes you think a good running one can't still hold more than it's own, but there is the parts thing! The lines of that car to me are totally classic even today, Beautiful.

[Ed K]

sorta' goin' backwards, about the same as bringing tubes and vinyl back into the hi-fi arena

Not going backwards if I never bought into digital sources :wink:

[felix]

Yeah, Lloyd, I bet so too. Hearing a sewing machine (electric motor) go down the track would be nothing but a joke and attract zero fans. Half of the fun of owning a Hog is the agressive (square wave?) cam making all that racket, even at a stop sign. I love that sound! ... felix

[felix]

I hear ya' Ed, loud and clear. It's too bad not enough folks appreciate that smooth sound of a good analog system. If it weren't for the current buyers of noise, we'd have much better sounding digital stuff. If they can do video the way they can now, it is NO problem in making digital sound as sounding as nice as a modern tube setup. Did you not know that just about all high quality tubes in the audio region are made in Russia? Perhaps those folks know how BALALAIKAs are supposed to sound. ... felix

[dubber123]

Lloyd, he claimed near 700 rear wheel HP last year when he "only" ran 10.50's. He went through it again this winter, and the first pass I saw was a 10.25, second pass, 10.25. I talked to him in the pits, (as he circulated ICE water through the hot motor by spinning the water pump with a cordless drill!), and asked him if the cooler air coming in helped it. He smiled and said "oh yeah!". Next pass, 10.18 134Mph. The car is gorgeous, full interior, even the little dealership tag on the radiator cap to tell you how to mix the antifreeze. It's just under 500 cubic inches, about 14:1 compression. You can run a maximum of 2-1/2" exhaust. Oh, still on the 6" Polyglass tires.. Such a cool class.

[Changeling]

Maybe we all ran into one another and didn't know it (I don't mean wreck). I ran a 1961 Corvette called "Night Crawler"! 327 block overboard, Max valves/ bored/stroked, Mondellow heads from California, Jahns pistons 14:1, Mickey Thompson RAM intake(No plenum Chamber) with 2 reworked 8 " Carters, 456 rear.

Isky cam, sucked, went to Crane roller smoothed things out . One of biggest improvements was having front coils and rear leafs done up "HEAVY", then things became controllable, However management became corrupt!!!!

[Nose Dive]

Well fellas...I ain't no scientist..and my "go's inta's" aint that gud..but.. Mass times velocity = Force... So..diameter..well I dunno 44 vs 45...ummm load a 230 44 and a 23 45 at same velocity and the force is da same...OK.. how bout da hole in da paper? Let see now... we think that is ballist coeffcient..yea? Or ...length by diameter...mm dunno ..mass of the boolit gotta mean sumpin... Like my ole 6.5 x55 Swede..140 grain.. We gotta go up the 30 Cal to match that ole boolits coeffecinet.. So what is the boolit doin down range when et get der?

My mind is a swaggling now!... Now Shape..Hollow Point..Plastic point ( Yup..de make'em!) All lead..Linotype...All Copper...some copper..some lead..some stuff!

seem to me...all plays a part... Load some HOT 45's in my 45 Black Hawk with my Bisley handle..Put dat on meself...no pistol smith for sure..but don't hurt my hand when i GET CRAZY..ol ruger handles it... but..shootin at a brass bell..makes it ring,,and me happy...

MY 44 "dirty harry' loves me too..but don't ' over load' the smith like i do the Ruger.. No..Never.. I love my eyes..hands..and life more...

Clean set of questions fellas....write more...heavy 45's in my 4-5/8 ruger no issues....

BE CAREFUL..It aint fun if your hurtin...

Nose Dive

[felix]

Be careful here, Nose Dive..... Force is better said to be equivalent to mass times acelleration (not velocity). Perhaps you are thinking momentum instead. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess i look at it a bit differnt. You can find a really nice one with low milage thats still stock in the 15000 range. Now that aint cheap but what kind of new car can you buy for that money? As to parts if you look around you can still easily obtain anything for one stock or modified. Theres shops all over the country that specialize in just them. Problems with buying them is first you have to know what to look for or its easy to get stung on junk. It too easy to crank the boost up without compensating with fuel and timing and hurt those motors. Lots of backyard mechanics made fast bombs out of them. the computer technology and fuel injection technology wasnt what it is today but can be worked around on them if you know what your doing. cool thing is theres nothing cheaper to make fast then a grand national. How many motors will allow you to knock 2 seconds off the quarter mile for a 1000 dollar investment and still maintian factory reliability. Give me a stock car and a grand and ill give you 12 second flat slips. Bolt on a set of real slicks and some race gas crank the boost up a bit more and youll be in the 11s and get 20mpg driving it home from the track with the ac on. Sure the new cammeros and challengers will do it too but theres a big differnce in 15k and 35k and theres the cool factor of having something not everyone else doesnt. Dont get me wrong i still love motors with carburators and distributors but will allways have a soft spot in my heart for the best dammed muscle car i ever owned.
Try pricing a Grand National now!!! What makes you think a good running one can't still hold more than it's own, but there is the parts thing! The lines of that car to me are totally classic even today, Beautiful.

[Whitworth]

I guess i look at it a bit differnt. You can find a really nice one with low milage thats still stock in the 15000 range. Now that aint cheap but what kind of new car can you buy for that money? As to parts if you look around you can still easily obtain anything for one stock or modified. Theres shops all over the country that specialize in just them. Problems with buying them is first you have to know what to look for or its easy to get stung on junk. It too easy to crank the boost up without compensating with fuel and timing and hurt those motors. Lots of backyard mechanics made fast bombs out of them. the computer technology and fuel injection technology wasnt what it is today but can be worked around on them if you know what your doing. cool thing is theres nothing cheaper to make fast then a grand national. How many motors will allow you to knock 2 seconds off the quarter mile for a 1000 dollar investment and still maintian factory reliability. Give me a stock car and a grand and ill give you 12 second flat slips. Bolt on a set of real slicks and some race gas crank the boost up a bit more and youll be in the 11s and get 20mpg driving it home from the track with the ac on. Sure the new cammeros and challengers will do it too but theres a big differnce in 15k and 35k and theres the cool factor of having something not everyone else doesnt. Dont get me wrong i still love motors with carburators and distributors but will allways have a soft spot in my heart for the best dammed muscle car i ever owned.

Not only that, Lloyd, they were comfortable to boot. Still regret not buying one in '87 that test drove at a local dealership -- about scared the hell out of the poor salesman! LOL!

[felix]

It's call even harmonics versus odd harmonics, but that is old hat like you say, Dan. The solid state devices today are computer controlled and therein any bias, both positive and negative in listening feel, can be inserted into the waveform to the various tuned drivers. That is all there is to it. We have several other mystery guys on this board that THINK they know something others do not. In other words, if you want to impart some knowledge, do so without emotion. PLEASE. ... felix

[felix]

I answered the hi-fi question, so let's defer the mechanical answer until someone else plays. There are more gearheads here than there are hi-fi goonies. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

LOL when i test drove mine i had the salesman my wife and my son in a baby seat. My wife was scared to tears and the sales man had finger prints about imbedded in the dash an kept say. YOU BEST BE BUYING THIS THING! Wife wasnt to pleased either that i needed a new set of back tires after only the first month. that and a bigger intercooler, down pipe, injectors an ajustable waste gate, chip and a bigger fuel pump, k&n intake and cat test pipe. Bigger turbo came later ;) without the bigger turbo i turned a 12.1. Never did get it back to the track after the turbo upgrade but it definately woke it up and im sure it was in the mid 11s. Not bad for a buick regal your grandma would be comfortable driving to church.
Not only that, Lloyd, they were comfortable to boot. Still regret not buying one in '87 that test drove at a local dealership -- about scared the hell out of the poor salesman! LOL!

[healey55]

Interesting discussion. I have 44 mag guns and I have a lot of brass and molds and whatever for em.

Now, I have nothing really against 45 colt and like to shoot the round but.. two things keep me from owning one at this point and neither has to do with power.

As was stated by someone.. I like my 44 mag loads at about 1200 fps for 240-250 slugs and 1100 for the 280-290 stuff.

The 45 colt can be easily loaded to these ranges in strong guns but.. You don't want to get your ammo mixed up.

And that brings me to the two reasons to not own one. First.. I don't want to have 44 mag and 45 colt brass to sort out. I already have a lot of 44 mag sooo..

Then.. I do not want to load hot 45 colt rounds and then fire them out of a weaker handgun by mistake.

With 44 mag.. I am not gonna hurt the weakest 44 mag gun.

It really is that simple for me. If I had started with 45 colt I might be more inclined to work with the round but.. I would still worry that my hot loads might end up in mine or someone elses old colt.