Sizing and lubrication

[noylj]

I am wondering how many have actually compared the accuracy of sized and unsized bullets.
I find that lead bullets at least 0.001" over the barrel bore dimension up to 0.003" work fine and that in most cases the as-cast diameter shoots as well or better than any sizing—I wonder how much "damage" any sizing does.
I used to lube my cast bullets with a lube/sizer die that would just "kiss" the bullet so the lube wouldn't squirt out all over the place. That seemed to improve groups and I never noticed any pressure signs or other problems.
I then got tired of all the work of casingt my own and started buying them commercially, and then, due to other real life issues, stopped reloading for several years. Getting back into it, I am once again finding that the larger the cast bullet (within some reason) is working better and I am thinking that when I order cast bullets, I may just order them 0.002-0.003 over nominal diameter. I am also seeing that tumble lubing my purchased cast bullets with LLA appears to be improving accuracy and decreasing leading by a significant amount. Thinking about just asking for unsized/unlubed bullets since I may just be tumble lubing them anyway.
Any thoughts?

[Crash_Corrigan]

Why are you buying cast boolits? From a commercial source? I recommend starting to cast your own boolits. If that is not feasible then look into Bullshop and his line of boolits. His info is at the bottom of this page as he is an advertiser and a great guy to deal with.

By casting your own you can adjust the alloy to suit your needs and make pretty much any shape and size boolit that you would need. You can even make bigger and fatter boolits by beagling your mold with metal foil tape.

[NuJudge]

I try to have molds that produce bullets at the diameter I want, .001" or .002" over groove diameter.

In a Lyman Lubricator/sizer, if my bullets are already the size I want, I use a die that is .001" larger than the bullet, and using 50/50 lube I've never had a problem with it extruding past the bullet.

In a Star Lubricator/sizer I need a bullet that is .001" or so larger than the die, or it will extrude around the bullet.

[Buckshot]

............You're correct that if your mould is dropping it's slugs at the size you want, why size? Al Miller a longtime writer at 'Handloader' magazine was always saying he refused to size his boolits other then to run any GC designs only deep enough in a die to crimp the GC on, if it didn't snap on. He handlubed his cast lead. Now to me that is a gawdawfull way to get lube onto boolits. I've tried it and each time I had lube on my clothes, up my nose, and in my hair. It's also quite messy when trying to seat them in the case.

I'm with NuJudge in trying to utilize a die that is the same ID as the boolit's OD, or a thou over if I don't have one just right. So far as I'm concerned lubing this way in a lube-sizer press has hand lubing beat all to heck. And speaking of sizing if you have to, the best way to get it done is via a push through die. In a regular lube- size setup (Lyman, RCBS, Saeco) the boolit is captured at both ends. It's base in the die and it's nose via the nose punch. If the press has any axial misalignment your boolit is going to suffer as it cannot 'self-align' itself as it may in a Star or Lee type die.

Lee LA is good stuff, but it too has some drawbacks, mainly having to do with messes in seating dies. The only 2 places I use LA a lot is with 38 WC's for target loads and I use it with all my bore riding design rifle boolits, and this is get the bore riding part lubed. In addition the only TL I use I thin 50-50 with paint thinner.

If I was after ultimate accuracy I suspect I'd make myself a set of cookie cutters and pan lube. If the slug DID have to be sized they'd then be sent up through a push through die.

..............Buckshot

[geargnasher]

Noylj, you're trying to bring generality where none can exist.

Accuracy depends on an infinite number of factors, and there is no rule to sizing a certain relative size over/at groove diameter to get the best accuracy, every gun is a rule unto itself.

Gear

[noylj]

Thanks for the comments but nobody addressed my questions or statements.
I have not found a single handgun of mine that shoots sized lead bullets better than unsized. Every gun is a rule unto itself, but I am hitting about 40 out of 40, not even counting different weights and styles.
I spent over 20 years casting my own bullets and only about 4 of those years were spent sizing them. Sorry, but my cast handloads for my 9mm may have been a little wasp waisted, but they fed every time and were reasonable- to very-accurate (my ten 9mms all like 0.358" cast bullets and my two Brownings require it).
Then I spent about 5 years not doing any reloading and very little shooting. When I started back, I plugged in the lead pot and it had shorted out while stored or moving. Just didn't see any reason to spend money on fixing it or getting a new one for something I wasn't enjoying and decided to buy my own.
I stopped casting because:
1) Buying another 20# pot was just too much money for an activity I didn't really enjoy
2) it stinks (where I am living right now the prissy git next door would just complain to the HOA, like he has before because my landscaping wasn't put in fast enough, my cars are in the driveway, the storms washed some sand into the street, and I smoke the occasional cigar)
3) it was getting very difficult to find scrap lead and, considering the cost of purchased alloys and the time and hassle, I felt my time was better spent doing what I enjoy: reloading and shooting.
As you can tell from my post, I am not entirely happy about commercial cast bullets, but I can't cast any bullet that is more accurate than the Remington 148gn HBWC in my M52s. Precision makes a great swaged 200gn SWC "Black Bullet" that all my .45s like (and are at least as good as the H&G #68s and the RCBS 45-201-SWCs I cast myself). I'm still going through some MasterBlaster 112gn "Black Bullet" SWCs that are phenomenal in my 9mm's and 38 Super's (and I wish I had bought 10k more). Right now, I am also working through a bunch of old NBC 155gn and 175gn SWC 10mm bullets for my .40s and 10mm's (they are reasonably accurate as-is and are much better after LLA treatment).
Right now, if I still had a working pot and alloys, I might cast (needless to say my retirement living income has been drastically cut back in the past 20 months).
I just would like to know if others have actually compared sized/unsized and if they have found sizing to be beneficial. It just seems to be something that people do because they think they need to.

[rhead]

Your question was how many have checked the accuracy of sized vs unsized boolits. I will answer that at least on member here has checked that. The only time I size is if the loaded round will not chamber when unsized, or when paper patching. I have sever revolvers that will give sticky loading with unsized boolits sized down a thou and there are no problems. I usually get the best results with the largest size that will chamber. If the bore is larger than the chamber I either sell the firearm, rechamber, or use it for j word bullets only.

[Bret4207]

I too am a disciple of brother Al Millers. Must be Buck and I read the same stuff. I have guns that show no discernible preference either way for sized or unsized and some that show a marked preference for unsized boolits. Most of my experience mirrors yours. I do know of people that I trust that have a few guns that like some particular designs right at groove diameter. But, I think that will vary a bit with boolit design and load.

There is no doubt in my mind that sizing can do damage. It may be unintentional and unnoticed, but it can happen.

[Bass Ackward]

I see enough difference that I have sizers in .0005 increments from .429 up to .434. 38 and 45 are only .001. Different designs work better at different hardness levels at different diameters.

If I had to trend it out, I would say that the faster I want to go, the harder and smaller in diameter I want to be. So the opposite would also be true. But I shoot anywhere from .002 over throat to .001 "under bore" using this context.

[44man]

I LOVE to size boolits, it is almost as much fun as getting 10 teeth yanked at once! :kidding:
I even hate pushing boolits through oversize Lee dies to remove excess lube. I could avoid this step with tumble lubes but I never got the stuff to work, poor accuracy and leading.
I will sit and force Felix lube in the grooves by hand, run them through the Lee, shoot little groups and kill deer.
The only time I really size is if the boolit is too large to chamber.

[Recluse]

Thanks for the comments but nobody addressed my questions or statements.

I just would like to know if others have actually compared sized/unsized and if they have found sizing to be beneficial.

Yes.

:coffee:

[sqlbullet]

As I just posted in another thread, the 205 gr MM 401 RFN that I have for my 10mm gets sized for reliability reasons. The 175 gr Lee 401 TL do not need that sizing to be reliable.

The 205's shoot better.

However, that could easily be my gun likes my 205 gr load better than my 175 gr load, or likes 205 gr bullets better than 175 gr bullets. I have never compared the 175 gr. bullets sized vs unsized.

[HORNET]

Un-sized boolits will frequently group better than sized IF they fit the barrel. The ASSRA boys are real big fans of lubing but not sizing and they regularly produce very good groups. Many serious cast boolit benchrest competitors also prefer to lube but not size and some in both groups will have separate molds to get the as-cast diameters that they want with different specific alloys. If the as-cast diameter doesn't fit the barrel, things change. I have a Ruger #1 in .270 that produces better groups when the boolits are sized .277 than at .278 or .280. Two of the molds used cast at .282 but any sized diameter over .2775 results in the boolit jumping a considerable distance before it hits any rifling and results in absolutely horrible groups.
The big factor with sizing remains "First do no harm".