Gunsmith Apprentice

[Just1Mor]

So I have been trying to go from being an amauture gunsmith to an actual apprentice to become a full on gunsmith. One HUGE problem seems to me that there aren’t any gunsmith’s these days that will take on an apprentice. I’m not some lazy slouch that is trying to slip into a shop to steal secrets that were taught to him, I just want to learn the trade by hands on experience and work my A## off around the shop in trade for the teaching. I would go to school for it because here in az there are some great schools, but I have 2 kids and a wife that I must support while trying to better myself in the meantime.

So that being said, I have an incredible amount of mechanical ability and can fix anything that was once working (even some things that weren’t). I have read all of my grandfather’s gunsmithing books, which he was a gunsmith, but died before I was born. I was in jewelry class all 4 years in high school and work with polishing great, without marring up the metal or rounding edges, as well as being a pretty good welder. My dad is a master pipe fitter and has tough me volumes but there is only so much of that trade that I can apply. I can install parts, do wood work and finishing, working on perfecting my checkering skills, fiberglass darn near anything, and polish and fit small pieces in the actions and firing mechanisms.

What I don’t know how to do is run a lathe, chamber properly, and all of the intricate stuff that would make a great gunsmith. So if anyone can lend some advice on how I might approach a smith for an apprentice position or know anyone that is looking for someone, I would really be in your debt. I can learn on all my own guns but have already been through most of them. Please any advice would be much appreciated.

Note, I am one hell of a sales person......:Fire:

[pietro]

[i][I have an incredible amount of mechanical ability and can fix anything that was once working]
[I have read all of my grandfather’s gunsmithing books, he was a gunsmith]
[I was in jewelry class all 4 years in high school and work with polishing great, without marring up the metal or rounding edges]
[a pretty good welder]
[ I can install parts, do wood work and finishing, working on perfecting my checkering skills, fiberglass darn near anything, and polish and fit small pieces in the actions and firing mechanisms.]

Apply for an FFL, so you can legally work on other's guns; then start working on the guns of friends & aquaintances for $$$, until you've built up a following and/or a specialty (rebluing seems to be "in demand").

Keep working a "day job", and do the gunsmithing nites & weekends, so you can support your family.

You already have more skills than the vast majority of those who today call themselves "gunsmith".

.

[waksupi]

Considering the talent coming from the Colorado School of Trades, and other gunsmithing schools, trying to find a job without that certificate is going to be tough sledding. Professionals just don't have the time to teach someone how to be a machinist. That is what school is for, or get your own mill and lathe and learn how to do the processes you want to know, on your own.
Montana Rifle Barrel Co. has high turnover in their work force, mainly because they try to hire guys off the street to do the work, who can't. However, they may give you a shot at it. Don't get me wrong, they put out good barrels, but have to reject more than they would like. If you make a few rejects, you are once again unemployed.
They are located outside of Kalispell, Montana. Keep in mind, the economy sucks here even in the best of times.

[Just1Mor]

I am here in Arizona and was looking for a good gunsmith to learn from. My self being in college also for chemical eng. know that "those who cant teach"! I want to learn from the best so I can be the best.

Pietro- From what i can tell you are correct. I have been aquiring some of the parts to start home bluing and almost there. I was just assuming that i would have to take the self taught method. There are just so many things that have been past down that will die with the trade im affaid.

Its like my granddads father was a blacksmith and the tried died with him.

[Char-Gar]

Go to your local college and sign up for classes in machining of metal. You will learn all you need to know about running a lathe, drill press, mill etc. Skills learned there are easily transferred to firearms and there is plenty of info to give you the details.

[darthdave22]

I am also working on being at least a part time gunsmith as well. I have been working on gunsmithing specifically for more than 2 years now. I can't boast all of your skills maybe a few :) but I have to agree with pietro. I live in Maine which = depressed and poor. I have three kids and the part-time, at night, on friends guns method seems to be the only path I can see that might just yield results in the future. And your list of skills is impressive. You will do fine. That being said, specializing in an area, such as blueing and Parkerizing at least to start with, is a great way to get your foot in the pro realm of gunsmithing. Thats just my opinion! I wish you the best of luck!

[darthdave22]

Oh yea and I am blacksmithing too and I have to say it is quite handy for learning about heat treating and the properties of metals and whatnot. I'm just trying to keep the old ways alive! :-o

[frankenfab]

Go to your local college and sign up for classes in machining of metal. You will learn all you need to know about running a lathe, drill press, mill etc. Skills learned there are easily transferred to firearms and there is plenty of info to give you the details.

Yup, maybe you could go 2 nights a week or something. Cutting feeds and speeds is nothing but math. There are plenty of reference materials on the subject that cover all cutting tools and all materials. More important it is to learn the safety precautions, and tips and tricks from old schoolers.

[Just1Mor]

Oh yea and I am blacksmithing too and I have to say it is quite handy for learning about heat treating and the properties of metals and whatnot. I'm just trying to keep the old ways alive! :-o

I agree, something about the oldways that just cant be broken. My dad worked with a guy for sandia national labs as a machinist and was a blacksmith as well (learned from being an apprentice) and was paid more for his metalergy* experince because they had no one that could do what he could do.

I really just want to learn. not so much make money, i have been fixing all of my friends guns for years but not until recent did i get into the tuning and funtioning of the weapon. I just take it appart and visulize it working and can see what will make it work better. not altering just fine tuning.

good luck to you aswell my friend.

[Just1Mor]

Yup, maybe you could go 2 nights a week or something. Cutting feeds and speeds is nothing but math. There are plenty of reference materials on the subject that cover all cutting tools and all materials. More important it is to learn the safety precautions, and tips and tricks from old schoolers.

If i had more time I would be all over that. But I work full time and go to school full time as it is.

Having a good base of chemicals has really helped in putting together the hot blue stuff. I would like to get to a point that i can start playing around with the salts to come up with different colors of bluing, reds etc.

[frankenfab]

If i had more time I would be all over that. But I work full time and go to school full time as it is.

I understand, and I feel for ya. If they offer such classes where you are going now, maybe you could take machining as one of your electives in lieu of one of the other choices? From my personal experience, the Deans have the power to approve such things. I bet it would actually be an easier and more fun semester!

[John Taylor]

The old story of becoming a gunsmith is, " don't quit your day job." I had worked as a mechanic, welder and machinist at more than a few places. Did my own mechanic shop for quite a few years. I liked playing with metal and went through a few lathes until I could afford to buy one in good shape. Gunsmithing was always a hobby until I found myself unemployed again. I had most of the parts to put together a rifling machine so went ahead with it while I was off. Got some great tips from Jerry Cunningham who had Orion rifle barrel at the time. After playing around boring and rerifleing a bunch of old barrel I put an add in one of the gun papers that I would fresh out barrels. That was over ten years ago and now I have trouble keeping up with the work load. Still not much money in it but I am doing what I like. I don't advertise anymore and I still get new customers.
I should add that I took a gunsmith coarse at night school to learn bluing but I don't offer that service. Machine work and welding is my thing.

[Just1Mor]

I understand, and I feel for ya. If they offer such classes where you are going now, maybe you could take machining as one of your electives in lieu of one of the other choices? From my personal experience, the Deans have the power to approve such things. I bet it would actually be an easier and more fun semester!

That is a great idea!!! Never thought of that, but your right, would make for a fun semester.

[Just1Mor]

[QUOTE=John Taylor;950932]The old story of becoming a gunsmith is, " don't quit your day job." I had worked as a mechanic, welder and machinist at more than a few places. Did my own mechanic shop for quite a few years. I liked playing with metal and went through a few lathes until I could afford to buy one in good shape. Gunsmithing was always a hobby until I found myself unemployed again. I had most of the parts to put together a rifling machine so went ahead with it while I was off. Got some great tips from Jerry Cunningham who had Orion rifle barrel at the time. After playing around boring and rerifleing a bunch of old barrel I put an add in one of the gun papers that I would fresh out barrels. That was over ten years ago and now I have trouble keeping up with the work load. Still not much money in it but I am doing what I like. I don't advertise anymore and I still get new customers.
I should add that I took a gunsmith coarse at night school to learn bluing but I don't offer that service. Machine work and welding is my thing.[/QUOTE


One of the things that stops me from charging others for the work is that i dont feel confortable without having fired it first even though i have never had issues with mine, but more me 2nd guessing myself about what i am doing. I think i will have to do it the old fashion way and just be self taugh. Im not looking to make money, as weird as it sounds, i just enjoy the product of a job well done and being assured that i learn correct. I think a machine couse is in order and picking up a lathe by taking out a student loan and start hacking away until i turn out perfect peices of scrap metal. Then ill start on firearms. I was really hoping i could learn from a well know person that could use polished machines and spotless floors. Nothing beats being taugh by the best at anything, i would like to be as good as my teacher and add my spin to it. Maybe.

[deltaenterprizes]

For machining information visit "The Home Shop Machinist" site and "Practical Machinist" site. They both have gunsmithing sections.

[Just1Mor]

Well what the heck.... Any gunsmiths here in the Phoenix area looking for an Apprentice?

[scrapcan]

Remember that if you work on others guns you maybe required to have an FFL. some of the if comes in when one of the friendly agents knocks on the door and asks you about what you have been doing. Look into it before you put your family at risk, they need you to help support them. Your hobby and wants come second to their needs.

[David2011]

What Pietro said. Our local college has gunsmithing classes in its adult education program. It's not for college credit but lathe and milling operations, metal prep, bluing and parkerizing are taught. Most people build a Mauser 98 based rifle as their first project. I've gone the same route Pietro suggested, bought the AGI level II course, spent a lot of money and time on parts, lots of reading and self education. I bought a friend's shop equipment when he could no longer gunsmith so I have a suitable lathe, mill, drill presses, grinders and polishers and have accumulated about $3000 worth of small specialty tools. All paid cash and my shop is in a large workshop at my house so I have no payments to make on anything.

Now I've been asked to teach the class. I still have a day job, do some repairs in the evenings and will start teaching in September. Hopefully by retirement in a few years I will have enough of a following that it will make a decent supplemental income. If no gunsmithing class is available, take a machine shop class. Our best new students are always the ones with machine shop backgrounds.

Good luck!
David

[Wayne Smith]

Let's see, you are married, have two children, a full time student and working full time? When do you have time to do gunsmithing? Only sleep 3hrs/nite?

I would suggest that you limit yourself to doing black powder gunsmithing or work that does not require you to have the whole gun. You can make small parts with a file and vice. You are working on a degree in Chemistry or Chemical Engineering, so blueing or casehardening should not be beyond you, for small parts at least, if you have a reliable heat source.

I would recommend that you decide two or three things that you can do well and reliably and start advertizing those services. If you limit yourself to BP gunsmithing you need no FFL. If you are going to handle modern guns you need your FFL01. Start on doing just those things you can do well and slowly branch out as you gain experience. Don't try to solve every problem that walks in the door - that's beyond you. Stick to what you do well for now.

[Dannix]

I'm only a beginner 'gunsmith' -- my biggest project recently was a proper fluff and buff of my Kel-tec (It's fit and finish amazed me...not in a good way). But could I make a recommendation base on my expertise in another sector?

married, have two children, a full time student and working full time
Time. Time is very valuable for you. You aren't a 14y/o with nothing better to do. So once you've learned the basics, say bluing or some such, charge for it. I mean full, industry standard prices. Otherwise it's not worth your time messing with and you may as well just get a 2nd job. I've been there myself...I was doing ~65-70hrs/week at one point (yeah, not missing that!).

Another thought -- you may be in uni with the wrong major. If you're completely geeking out about gunsmithing to the point where you don't mind spending a lot of time and making a little money, and hence not geeking out over your major of chemical engineering, then you may be wasting your time and money in the major. It may be wise to drop that major and go the 'trade' route, machine shop et al.

Hope this helps :)

[John Taylor]

I went through and read a few of the replies and then ( I'm slow ) I noticed that you are spending a lot of time outside the home and away from your family. No matter what you do, your wife and kids come first. Trust me on this as I am on my forth wife. I'm a slow learner but I did learn. Your wife loves you and wants you to have everything you want out of life so she will tell you to go after these thing. After time she will feel left out and want some of that "time" with you. Don't destroy what you have by taking on to much. With my first wife I thought it was my responsibility to support the family so I had four jobs. That's not the kind of support they need.

[Just1Mor]

I went through and read a few of the replies and then ( I'm slow ) I noticed that you are spending a lot of time outside the home and away from your family. No matter what you do, your wife and kids come first. Trust me on this as I am on my forth wife. I'm a slow learner but I did learn. Your wife loves you and wants you to have everything you want out of life so she will tell you to go after these thing. After time she will feel left out and want some of that "time" with you. Don't destroy what you have by taking on to much. With my first wife I thought it was my responsibility to support the family so I had four jobs. That's not the kind of support they need.

That is very true, I barely see them as it is. I have been doing much thinking on the subject and I can tell you that all the replies have been earth shacking when I step back and look at what I am trying to accomplish given the time I have. I have desided to try and find a job in manufacturing instead of sales so I am at least around that side of things and picking up what I can in machining. Also, this semester i have one class that I need to take before I can take any higher class so as a sub will be taking a Machining 1 course to fill in for the credits.

My only fear is that if i do go into manufacturing/machining that one day my job will find its way over seas and i will have nothing to fall back on. I now have almost my full bluing set up and will post some pics when i get everything done, but i have 3 project guns that i am going to reblue so that i can get down the learning curve. It has taken me a great deal of research and chemistry to find all the chemicals that the old books call for (well most of them) so i should be bluing soon. will most likely start playing around with the duracoat stuff and see what that is all about. seems to be pretty popular, i just like the way bluing looks.

In reply to another post, i have already become quite good at making parts with a needle file set. Actually made a hammer for my blackhawk out of an old clutch housing i took out of my jeep, that took forever to make. just need patients.

[Just1Mor]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=90016

is the link to the oppinion thread I wrote. wanting to know what you all thing.

[Just1Mor]

Just to let you all know I changed direction in school to manufacturing engineering. Taking machining basics this fall and cant wait.

[MtGun44]

Good for you! More education in real world subjects is always a benefit. I second the
"family first" comments from John. You and the wife and kids have to spend time together
or there is no point to any of it. You are right to be worried about jobs moving overseas,
so you need to have the education and/or skills to provide your boss or your customer
(whoever winds up paying you ) enough value for the pay that they really want you to
come back and do more work for them. Think hard about that. If you can become a
valuable employee or if you make your gunsmith dream work, keep your customer list
long and earn enough to live on, you will be safer than just doing some job that can
be done by just "labor" - like Manuel labor or Chin-Sho labor.

Make yourself indespensible at work and save enough time to "smell the roses"
with the family. Not easy, but remember a good old saying -

"Hope is not a plan."

Bill

[Dannix]

That's exciting! Your not alone either; iirc the national average is ~70% for major changes. Hope it goes well!

[Just1Mor]

I hear ya, considering that if thing keep going the way they are, someone that know how to make anything has just become invaluable. You will always be able to trade services in the crafts and at the very least be able to make the tools for servival. lol things have to change or else money will not be one of my worriers. I have a buddy who is an aircraft engineer and he things the field will be full steam ahead. Americans are the only ones that make very dependable machines. Its about perfection with me so i hope that counts in the future.

[82nd airborne]

Your choice to continue your education will also give you 4 or more years to learn various weapons systems, and how to solve there problems on your own. There is no better way to retain knowlege than by getting it the hard way, which, in our case, happens to be enjoyable. Just because you have a degree doesnt mean you have to use it. If being a smith is what you want, keep it as your ultimate career goal, but use your degree as a means to get there. You will always have something to fall back on that way. Time with family is number one, but that time with them will be more enjoyable if you just got done with a day of work that you truly enjoy, as opposed to slugging thru a job you hate. Hang in there, and enjoy the ride. just my humble/worthless opinion.
Aaron

[Just1Mor]

opinion well appreciated, to all that have replied. As long as i can keep asking questions and learning from you'all we'll be good to go.

[jmh54738]

A strong knowledge of machining, metallurgy and math are required for general gunsmithing. Having a lathe is great, but you must be able to grind tool bits and cut acme, square, and whitworth threads. Can you select the proper tool steel for a gun part or a spring? Can you heat treat and temper to suit the requirements of the work? You must be resourceful, inventive, and intuitive. Speeds and feeds may be only math but can you sense when the speed is too fast or the load too great? Can you feel how much torque that 6-48 tap can take, and can you feel when it is cutting, or when it reaches the bottom of the hole. Can you salvage the hole with the broken tap? Much finesse is required to do no harm, such as scratches, dents, vise jaw marks, etc. I have hired several young people who had completed a two year machinetool course, to whom I could teach nothing due to their big attitudes, they learned to chew, thus could work with only one hand, as their spit can was in the other hand, they had no concept of time, and were taught to only take a .025" dept of cut. They assume that a machine tool is perfect and new, which they seldom are. Computers are a way of life today, but common sense is required in addition to typing "G" codes into a CNC. It is difficult to teach in a shop environment because the productivity of the teacher is pulled down more than 50%. We all had to start out somewhere, we never live long enough to avoid making mistakes. I guess skill is the ability to avoid most of them. I speak from 45 years in industry as a tool and diemaker, and gunsmith, with 5 lathes, 7 mills, 2 gear hobs, and perhaps 30 more machines and 200 files. I am amazed at the boring and rifling benches of 200 years ago. They knew how to lay out the helix (trig out the rifling twist) on a wooden master, and with a few bits of metal and some wood, could produce a rifled tube. Amazing!!
John

[jmh54738]

I think that I could get along with John Taylor, I know from where he speaks, having had three wives. I am now alone, and alone can be for a long time, perhaps a life time.
John

[pmeisel]

Like the others I highly recommend the machining or related technology classes offered by many community colleges.

I work in an industry that requires toolmakers, in an area where there aren't very many. We have been hiring community college grads with a two year class in machining, then working them in harness with our very few journeyman toolmakers.

You will pick up a lot of skills that way. With your aptitude, enthusiasm, and energy, you will be very good one day.

Don't know how your college handles degree requirements and transfer credits, but maybe you can make some sort of "industrial technology" electives fit.

One more thought -- with a knowledge of chemistry, mechanical aptitude, an FFL, and some disassembly manuals, you could get started by specializing in bluing and refinishing. There are some successful gunsmith businesses that do just that, forever... for you it might be a toehold to get experience and build a reputation.

[Freightman]

I guess that is an advantage to being old broke down and broke, you can sit in on classes at the local collage for $50 you just do not get credit but you get to do everything the for credit students do.

[wv109323]

I would second picking up classes in machining. Machinist are a dying breed in America. I read recently that a machinist would be one of the jobs in demand in America in the next decade. Most American companies have not been training machinists for a decade or two relying upon the existing work pool of machinists. That Breed is now retiring creating a shortage.
I would also read as many bulletin boards as possible. I know Rimfire Central has a gunsmithing discussion on .22rf rifles for benchrest, Bulleye-lava has open discussions on building a match .45 Auto for NRA Convential Pistol Bullseye, IIRC Jet had a gunsmith section on their machine site. The list goes on and on as to where you can pick up info and ask questions.
Gunowners and gunsmiths in general are good people and willing to help a beginner so that the trade of gunsmithing is not lost. I have witnessed "big time" gunsmiths offering advice to novices and amatuers on these bulletin boards.

[Just1Mor]

well, i have done what you all have sugested and major has been changed to manufacturing engineering. I am in the middle of machine 1 and have bought my first mill (bridgeport $300) and as you said John they dont always hold the tolorance that you would think. This class has been a blast so far and i am learning that most of it has been review so far, but learning to use that machines has been fun. I can tell you that i am better at milling by feel rather than calculating speeds and feeds, just my gift i guess. I have maybe 9 more classes till i have the 2 year degree but will pit up a ton of certs on the way, Machinist 1 by the end of the semester. Being a prefectionist goes a long way to getting thing right the first time in this business, good thing my dad was a good teacher. Have also been learning CAD on my own time and the CNC portion is next semester so i should be good to go.

Note: I have had to take out broken taps before but i learned the hard way. Broke tap in aluminum engine block is not a good thing, but a little enginewity solved that.

keep it coming, i am listening intently.

[pmeisel]

Good luck. You will have a lot of fun on your journey. People who can solve problems always get new and interesting ones!

[jmh54738]

Just1mor,
Great, I'm already proud of you. You have a great attitude and a willingness
to learn. Now you can tighten up the gibs on the Bridgeport, take the endplay out of the screws and the backlash out of the nuts, tram the head, and go to work. Make a bunch of tee nuts, some with 1/4-20, 5/16, and 3/8 thread, some I have with two threads. Make a couple of boring bars, as needed, using the mill like a shaper to broach a square hole. ( Yes, I know about square hole sleeves, and I know that a square tool bit will fit in a round hole, and yes, they make round HSS bits). It's the technique that is important ... say making an inside corner square. Amaze most people by figuring out tap drill size without ever looking at the chart, even odd or metric sizes. Keep learning!
John

[Just1Mor]

I think I could figure out the Tapping with out a chart, say just adding a 16th to the drill bit you use or depending on the fitment a 32nd?

[theperfessor]

To determine the approximate tap drill size take the nominal diameter and subtract one thread pitch. For example, a 1/4-20 threaded hole. The pitch is the reciprocal of the TPI, i.e. 1/20 of an inch or 0.050". The drill size is .250 - 0.050 or .200". Most charts recommend a drill of .201 to .203, depending on the desired % of engagement.

Works every time.

[Just1Mor]

Nice, commited to memory. that is good to know. Any shortcuts for feed rates?

[Just1Mor]

Thought I would give u all an updates. I can run a mill,lathe,surface grinder, and taking the classes for setup and programming cnc next semester. I have even made a handful of parts including a scope mount for my garand covered bm59.

I did have a brother chose to take his life 2 weeks ago so I have been dealing with a lot on top of what I already had. I am not the kind to let things keep me down and as long as I'm still breathing it is a good day

RIP. Jeremy Gates, may u rest in peace.

A heartfelt thanks to all that have continually encouraged me, and consider all family.

Thanks and happy holidays to all.

[skimmerhead]

Thought I would give u all an updates. I can run a mill,lathe,surface grinder, and taking the classes for setup and programming cnc next semester. I have even made a handful of parts including a scope mount for my garand covered bm59.

I did have a brother chose to take his life 2 weeks ago so I have been dealing with a lot on top of what I already had. I am not the kind to let things keep me down and as long as I'm still breathing it is a good day

RIP. Jeremy Gates, may u rest in peace.

A heartfelt thanks to all that have continually encouraged me, and consider all family.

Thanks and happy holidays to all.

i am very sorry for your loss, i know this is a very trying time in you life, but remember life goes on and it may take a life time to understand why. but you must remain strong not only for yourself, but your family as well. do not give up your goal, press on with your dream. i wish you and your family well. skimmerhead

[Just1Mor]

So to follow up, anyone in AZ looking for a apprentice to hire on? or any job opening. I have many talents.