good 45-70 bp load

[craveman85]

hey guys im new to this site and new to reloading. i bought a nef buffalo classic because i love 45-70's and wanted to cast my own bullets and figured if im going to cast bullets for something i might as well buy something new to cast the bullets for. i ordered a lee 500 grain pointed bullet mold from midway which should be here in a few days along with the classic loader kit and my primers and casings. what do you guys reccommend for a good bp load. i would like to get decent velocities as i need a faster bullet to shoot those damn chipmunks.

[Tom-ADC]

What I do is drop a cast boolit into the chamber, then using a pair of caliper's measure from the base to the end of the chamber and record that number, then subtract it from 2.10 actual chamber length, that will tell you how deep to seat the boolit into the case, I'm using Swiss 1.5 and a .06 OPW, I fill the case so I can get .15 or so powder compression. Makes for a nice load its about 63 gr's by weight.

[craveman85]

how dirty of a load is it? i want to go all traditional on my loads but am kinda worried about having to clean it every few shots. when i target pactice with my marlin ill throw about 50 rounds through it. would be a bit of a pain to clean my gun 8 times a day

[Dragoon 45]

how dirty of a load is it? i want to go all traditional on my loads but am kinda worried about having to clean it every few shots. when i target pactice with my marlin ill throw about 50 rounds through it. would be a bit of a pain to clean my gun 8 times a day

You will need a .45-70 blow tube. This allows you to put moisture from your breath down the bore to help keep the fouling soft. Also a quality bullet lube formulated for BP will help keep the fouling soft also. Using these two items, I can shoot at least 11 rounds in a row without punching the bore.

I have found with my .40-65 and .45-70 SS's that a tight fitting cotton ball with BP solvent applied to it will clean out 90-95% of the fouling in one pass as long as the fouling is kept soft. I use SPG Lube on all my bullets and three breaths through the blow tube after every shot. If it is a hot day I may increase the number of breaths put through the blow tube to 5 or 6 depending on the appearance of the lube star on the muzzle. I get a very nice lube star on the muzzle formed by the fouling and moisture which indicates that the fouling is staying soft inside the bore.

Blow Tubes can be purchased from a number of sources or can be made by the shooter himself out of a case and a length of flexible tubing of the right diameter.

www.buffaloarms.com, Midway, Cal-graf, Sage outfitters, Track of the Wolf, and others sell blow tubes.

[Tom-ADC]

I use a modified Emmert's lube, I substitute lanolin in place of canola oil, I also use a blow tube, and about every ten rounds I run a Bassilstol dampened .410 bore mop thru the barrel followed by a couple of patches.. Clean up is a breeze when I get home.

[SharpsShooter]

Bullshop's NASA lube beats anything I have ever used,including some of the big name stuff. As others have said use a blow tube if needed. Swiss burns very clean with little compression, but the Goex Cartridge can burn just as well with compression.

A good starting load for that bullet is 55gr of Goex, compressed just enough to seat the bullet with a .030" Walter's veggie wad in between. Work up from there to the accuracy you desire.

SS

[craveman85]

these loads arent going to build up too much pressure with a 500 grain slug? not worried about my shoulder since i use both of them but more worried about the gun.

[Tom-ADC]

I shoot mine out of a Pedersoli Sharps, recoil isn't bad at all and I'm an old guy.
The cases show zero signs of pressure.
My Lyman BP handbook shows 500 gr boolit with 60 grs Goex FFg at 1063 FPS & 12,100 C.U.P

[Don McDowell]

hey guys im new to this site and new to reloading. i bought a nef buffalo classic because i love 45-70's and wanted to cast my own bullets and figured if im going to cast bullets for something i might as well buy something new to cast the bullets for. i ordered a lee 500 grain pointed bullet mold from midway which should be here in a few days along with the classic loader kit and my primers and casings. what do you guys reccommend for a good bp load. i would like to get decent velocities as i need a faster bullet to shoot those damn chipmunks.

I shot 70 grs of goex 2f or cartridge with a .030 fiber wad under the bullet.
Then I found out that bullet's ability to stay stable past the 500 yd line was iffy at best and quit using it.

[KCSO]

The lube you use will make all the difference in B/P loads. My BEST lube will let me shoot 15+ rounds with no loss of accuracy on a moderate day. If it is 100 and low humidity I might have to clean after 8 or 10 shots, but this is no hassel as I just run a Fischer cleaner through and keep on shooting. In the 1880's the military usually shot 15 shots a day and swabbed the bore every 5 shots. My lubes are graded for summer and winter lube as yo need pretty stiff lube here in NE during the summer, all my B/P lubes are bees wax and bear oil. As to powder charges, compression, wads and bullets you wil need a lot of expirimenting to find just the right combination for your gun, once you find it you should get right at 1 1/2" for 10 shots at 100 yards.

[twotrees]

I have had very good results with the older 1 cavity 2R mold. It shot great in Texas to 1000 Meters on the Creedmore Buff.

[NickSS]

I have been shooting BPCR for 20 years now and ML for almost 45 years. Black powder is not hard to clean up. In fact it is easier than smokeless powder and requires a lot less work to get the gun clean. Those who complain just do not have a properly seasoned barrel and lube combo. Personally during a match I usually wipe the bore after each stage of the shoot. Generally that is between 12 and 20 shots. I do not carry fancy bore cleaners with me but I stick a clean patch in my mouth and get it wet with sliver and push it through one pass. If all the fouling does not come out I run another through. That is all. I use a blow tube between shots and give between 2 and 4 breaths depending upon temperature and humidity of the day. When I am practicing I rarely wipe the bore at all and generally shoot 50 rounds before cleaning it. I remember one time I fired 110 rounds of 45-70 without cleaning and was still shooting groups as well and when I started. The only problems I have ever had was on very hot and dry days. I have experienced the beginning of hard fouling by the end of a string and took more time to get it clean before the next stage.

[nicholst55]

As stated, a lot will depend on your lube and the temperature when you shoot and the humidity where you live. Cool, humid days will require less blow-tubing, or maybe even none, when compared to hot, dry days. Be certain that the boolit you select carries enough lube for BP use in a long rifle barrel. It doesn't take much lube for a pistol boolit - rifle boolits are a different matter.

Carry a range rod, and don't be afraid to wipe the bore between shots.

[craveman85]

well i was thinking of using liquid alox that i have and then pan lubing them as well. should slide right out of the barrel then. so if i use goex ffg i should probly just use 70 grains and make sure the bullet firmly seats on it? what is the problem with having an air gap in black powder? plan on using a homemade grease cookie too and eventually ill get a mold for paper patch bullets.

[NickSS]

First of all with a 500 gr bullet unless your rifle is free bored or your mold is a tapered one you will not get 70 gr in the case unless you use a compression die and compress the powder a lot. Adding a greese cookie makes it even more of a problem. Also never Use LLA with black powder unless you want nothing but poor accuracy and a very hard to clean gun.

Air space will destroy accuracy and may even cause problems with ringing your chamber especially if you put a card wad on top of a less than full charge of powder. The only exception to the no air space rule is a shorps percussion rifle. They have a built in air space behind the cartridge in the breach block and they work fine that way.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
A 500 grainer with any amount of Black Powder should take care of them chipmunks.
I got cured real fast shooting 500 grainers out of my Rolling Block Carbine.

[Don McDowell]

well i was thinking of using liquid alox that i have and then pan lubing them as well. should slide right out of the barrel then. so if i use goex ffg i should probly just use 70 grains and make sure the bullet firmly seats on it? what is the problem with having an air gap in black powder? plan on using a homemade grease cookie too and eventually ill get a mold for paper patch bullets.

If you're using a good bp lube , you need to scratch the lube cooky thing, not necessary and will only compound problems.
LLA good for smokeless loads, sucks with bp, makes a terrible mess, leaves fouling like asphalt.
Using 65-70 grs of 2f air gap won't be a problem if you seat the bullet to the driving band.

[craveman85]

so i should be fine with one of the homemade lubes then? what about thompson center bore butter? seems to work fine in my muzzle loader or is it too soft.

[Don McDowell]

Bore butter is to runny won't stick in the lube grooves.
Just buy a stick of prooven lube such as Sagebrush alox or spg. Save a lot of lube problems . You can always mess with homemade lubes once you figure out how to make your rifle shoot.

[craveman85]

how much velocity should i be able to get with a 500 grain slug out of a 32 inch barrel? i cant find this swiss powder anywhere around here.

[Tom-ADC]

Yesterday shot 61 grs of Swiss 1.5 with 500 gr boolit, accurate & recoil managable.
Was surprised how clean it was.

[craveman85]

is that by volume or by weight

[craveman85]

ive got a lee classic loader kit and it comes with a 4.3 cc dipper and i dont have a scale.

[montana_charlie]

ive got a lee classic loader kit and it comes with a 4.3 cc dipper and i dont have a scale.
The instructions that came with your Lee set should tell you which powder to use with the 4.3 cc dipper. It will probably be a smokeless powder, so that volume will probably be very different than an appropriate black powder charge.

If you intend to use BP, get an adjustable measure designed to throw BP charges for muzzle loaders. It will also work for Pyrodex...if you insist on using that propellant.

CM

[Tom-ADC]

is that by volume or by weight

Sorry by weight.

[dangerranger]

part of the deal with BP lubes is they need to accept moisture. anything thats petrolium based will repell moisture. I use Liquid allox for smokeless loads, and it works well. but for BP try a known BP lube till you get it down and then experiment with home brews.

Ive yet to find a local source for Swiss powders either. I have found Goex tho.

[Tom-ADC]

Danger ranger I live in San Diego county and nobody sell BP of any sort, I've been buying from these people, the price you see includes the hazmat, min order is 5 lbs but they will mix and match. Really good to deal with.
http://www.powderinc.com/index.html

[craveman85]

i got a set of lee dippers with the chart to tell what volumes of what powders and ill go from there. got some bullets getting lubed up and then ill load my first tomorrow.

[Tom-ADC]

i got a set of lee dippers with the chart to tell what volumes of what powders and ill go from there. got some bullets getting lubed up and then ill load my first tomorrow.

You need a scale doesn't need to be digital a beam will work just fine but get a scale.
I have a spare Lee Safety Scale that would do you for a while until you get the urge for a digital.
instructions: http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/SA2056.pdf

[wills]

I think some of the digital scales are now cheaper than balance beam.

[gpalman]

I have an original. Have never seriously tried to develop a load with BP. Want to. Have available 405 gr plain base bullets. Can anyone point me in the direction of a suitable FFg load. Was thinking in the 55 to 60 grains by weight range. Comments or suggestions appreciated. --Greg

[Gunlaker]

i got a set of lee dippers with the chart to tell what volumes of what powders and ill go from there. got some bullets getting lubed up and then ill load my first tomorrow.

I've never been a big fan of the powder measures, although I've got a Lyman 55 black powder measure, I still use Lee dippers, my RCBS scale, and an RCBS trickler for all of my charges. I use the biggest Lee dipper (4.3cc) and it gives somewhere around 63gr to 65gr of Goex Cartridge by weight. I use the trickler to bring it up to the final weight.

You would be in the right ball park by starting with the 4.3cc dipper to begin with. That worked OK for me when I started.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

I use the biggest Lee dipper (4.3cc) and it gives somewhere around 63gr to 65gr of Goex Cartridge by weight. I use the trickler to bring it up to the final weight.
If that's true, that dipper would be a good measure to start with.

To get a consistent volume of powder, don't use it to scoop powder out of a bowl. Hold it over the bowl and fill it by pouring into it with something else...then scrape the excess off of the top with a straight edge.

Some digital scales are designed for weighing powder. However, most digital scales will do ok when 'checking' the weight of a powder charge...but are no good for trickling up to weight.

CM

[craveman85]

i couldnt find any black powder within about 50 miles of my house so i decided to go smokeless until i can get some. got imr 4198 for now and using 2.2cc's in my mild loads and 2.5cc's or 31.6 grains in my hotter loads. hot loads still arent max and should put me around 23000 cup. problem is i ordered large rifle primers from midwayusa and i didnt noticed till i loaded 50 rounds and was cleaning up that they were magnum primers. is this going to be an issue when i go to fire them?

[felix]

No. ... felix

[craveman85]

using a pointed cast bullet all my loads came up at 2.720-725 overall length. i did have some shaving with the nickle casings but not with the brass hornady i used. maybe when i fire them and reload they will be opened up a little more but the virgin cases were a bitch.

[wills]

I have an original. Have never seriously tried to develop a load with BP. Want to. Have available 405 gr plain base bullets. Can anyone point me in the direction of a suitable FFg load. Was thinking in the 55 to 60 grains by weight range. Comments or suggestions appreciated. --Greg

Fill a case level full of powder. Weigh it. That is your load. Use a drop tube to put the powder in the case, put a vegetable fiber wad on top of the powder. Compress the powder until the bullet seats at the desired depth.

[kennisondan]

Fill a case level full of powder. Weigh it. That is your load. Use a drop tube to put the powder in the case, put a vegetable fiber wad on top of the powder. Compress the powder until the bullet seats at the desired depth.

will that work with the 530gr boolits ? it will compress that much ??
thahks
dk:holysheep

[Tom-ADC]

I use a 30" drop tube a 61 gr charge (by wieght) of Swiss 1.5 comes to about 5/16 from the case mouth so plenty of room for a 530 gr boolit.
I was surprised at how much of a difference in case filling a drop tube makes. I used a 30" piece of stainless steel golf shaft, my Lyman 55 BP powder measure came with a drop tube but way to large to really work. Using the golf shaft you have to wait for the case to fill. I mickey moused a drop set up under my measure, looks funny works great.

[hk33ka1]

I found that my Lee Case Expander die will compress Goex FFG in .45-70 cases, and thus can get 63 (70volume) or 70 grs weight into the case under a 405HB Lee. They grouped well at 25yd. Loaded 56gr (60 vol)weight under the Lee 500 pointed but have yet to fire.

[craveman85]

how the hell did they used to fit 70 grains of black powder behind a 500 grain bullet in the old military rounds?

[Tom-ADC]

how the hell did they used to fit 70 grains of black powder behind a 500 grain bullet in the old military rounds?

Drop tube, I was loading today 64 grs of Swiss 1.5 Fg using the drop tube maybe 3/8 inch from case mouth, using the scale pan maybe a 1/4 inch, drop tube makes a world of difference. Mine is just a length of old golf shaft with a small funnel taped to the top of it.
I have no doubt I can load 70 grs with no problems.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL174/1021972/18168454/390650134.jpg

[Gunlaker]

how the hell did they used to fit 70 grains of black powder behind a 500 grain bullet in the old military rounds?

Google Balloon Head Case and you'll see that the older cases likely had a bit more capacity. I believe that significant compression was used too, but I might be wrong on that.

Also, with a drop tube and fireformed Winchester brass, it's quite easy to fit 70gr of Goex Cartridge (by weight ) in the case.

In my C. Sharps 1885 I use 68gr in Starline brass with only just over 0.1" compression, although I do seat the bullets out a bit.

Chris.

[EdZ KG6UTS]

I shoot a Pedersoli .45-70 1874 Sharps sillywet replica 30". Since we are usually in the desert I'm not sure how useful my blow tube is but I use it and a damp wiper patch between shots. The bullets are an NEI nose pore 458-500-pb or the stock govt. bullet bought in bulk. Brass is star-line, have about 1000, or Remington, 250. At home I use the Lyman metal drop tube powder measure but out in Borrego I just fill the case and use a 310 tool or the Lee hammer loader. Its just fun shooting not real hairy competition. Similar with my .43 Spanish but I do not have a 310 yet. For both the .45-70 and .43 I'm using second hand RCBS jr presses (4)that were $15 each at a local swap meet. I get ham radio stuff there too.

[EdZ KG6UTS]

[QUOTE=Tom-ADC;968347]Drop tube, I was loading today 64 grs of Swiss 1.5 Fg using the drop tube maybe 3/8 inch from case mouth, using the scale pan maybe a 1/4 inch, drop tube makes a world of difference.

Similar set up here for .45-70 and .43 Spanish.

EdZ KG6UTS (ETN2 and ET1 in a former life)

[craveman85]

ok loaded my first bp substitue loads today. i cant find any black powder around here and dont want to pay 20 bucks for hazmat shipping fees till i can get some people to go in on a bigger purchase. i decided to go with tripple 7 because its readily available around here. i made a drop tube using an old aluminum arrow and taping a funnel to the top of it. im using 70 grains of powder by volume. with smokeless loads and 3 kinds of lube i was getting at best 5 inch groups at 50 yards. im going to be using a lube of 1 part beeswax to 2 parts lard. i found an old guy that is using that lube and swears by it. with 70 grains in a drop tube it was filling the case to 5/16's below the opening. the powder compressed fine with my lee hammer loader and tomorrow ill get to test it out i hope. ill be going to maine next week so maybe ill get some black powder up there.

[Tom-ADC]

I buy my BP here 5 lb min order BUT the price you see includes the hazmat fee's.
I will not shooot a substitute. But that's just me.
http://www.powderinc.com/index.html

[cajun shooter]

Make sure that you clean after using that play like powder or you will have a rusted gun. Too Bad that you gave up on finding the real Black. That is the only powder that provides the actual feeling of how it was done. A modern day shooter who puts in his time and learns about the real powder is not at a disadvantage but has a huge advantage over the others. When and if you decide to become a shooter who knows that feeling that I speak of.Only then will you understand of what I speak. Best of shooting to you. Later David

[craveman85]

i got some goex fffg from kittery when i was in maine. it was all they had in stock for real bp at the time. got some overpowder wads too so i hope that will work.

[Don McDowell]

65 grs of 3f is a pretty good load with most bullets in the 45-70

[craveman85]

i may end up using a little less since i want to try a wonder wad and see if accuracy gets any better. they are kinda thick and take up a lot of space in the cartridge with a 500 grain bullet.i weighed what my lee dippers say is supposed to be 68 grains and it acutally comes out at 62 grains. i also got a few more reloading books and may try a few duplex loads.

[craveman85]

how much should i be compressing a load anyways?

[webfoot10]

Hi All: I use a duplex load of 5 grs. 4759 topped with 50 grs. FFG. I can fire 50 to 100
shots and have no fouling what so ever. Cleanup with water and Ed's red. I use rendered
venison tallow and beeswax for lube. I use rice krispies on top of the bp and top with a
card wad. The bullet when seated will crush the rice krispies and fill any air pockets. Makes
a nice accurate load. I use both 400 & 500 gr. boolits. Some matches donot allow duplex
loads with smokeless powder in them. So use 5 grs of pistol pirodex. works but is dirtier.
webfoot10

[Gunlaker]

how much should i be compressing a load anyways?

There is no hard and fast rule you'll find. You'll get many people with differing opinons.

Personally I'd load 10 rounds with no compression, then ten more with 1 more grain of powder, and keep going until you find a load that shoots well. If you can't get close to 2MOA or so doing this, I'd start trying different bullets.

Once you find the load with the best groups try different bullet seating depths and primers too. You'd be surprised how much difference a primer can make.

Then there are a million other variables to play with :-)

Chris.

[craveman85]

if i use fffg loaded with no compression it only holds about 55 grains with my bullet. thats using a 24 inch drop tube. how did they get 70 grains in there with a lead bullet?

[craveman85]

what diameter should my drop tube be? ive been using an aluminum arrow that barely fits inside the case about 24 inches long. whould i use something narrower?

[Don McDowell]

The 70 gr loads are compressed, always have been always will be.

You're drop tube needs to be big enough to fit over the mouth of the case, any thing that goes inside the case will take up to much room for powder.
You can actually just slow pour your powder thru a funnel used normally on and get about as much "compression" as a droptube will get you, from there on out you need to use a tool of somekind to compress the load further.

[Tom-ADC]

what diameter should my drop tube be? ive been using an aluminum arrow that barely fits inside the case about 24 inches long. whould i use something narrower?

Your arrow shaft is probably about like my section of old golfclub shaft, my piece is about 28 inches long, I attached a small powder funnel to one end, when I use it I can hear the powder running thru it, takes a little bit. Mine does all I need it to down I can get 70 grs in a 45-70 case without problems, with still a little room left, but that load will be compressed as noted above.

[craveman85]

70 grains came out about 1/8 inch from the mouth of the case. bullet needs to be seated .700 inches. isnt that a bit much compression?

[Don McDowell]

nope, not if you want usable velocity out of that bullet.

[Gunlaker]

70 grains came out about 1/8 inch from the mouth of the case. bullet needs to be seated .700 inches. isnt that a bit much compression?

Wow, that bullet really seats deep! In my 1885 I have no more than about .5" in the case, sometimes less if I seat it out further.

Chris.

[craveman85]

well i did what the one guy told me to do. i dropped a bullet in the chamber then measured it with calipers and subtracted that from 2.1 or the chamber lenght and got my .698 if i seat it any less than that the bullet will rotate around in the case and pop up a little bit.

[Don McDowell]

Just resize the case, pour the powder charge in , compress until the bullet will seat to the driving band or last lube groove. Just enough crimp to take the flare out of the case mouth and go shoot.

[craveman85]

if i dont seat them that deep you have to push them into the rifling. i dont want to crimp it in a lube groove and lose my lube.

[Gunlaker]

well i did what the one guy told me to do. i dropped a bullet in the chamber then measured it with calipers and subtracted that from 2.1 or the chamber lenght and got my .698 if i seat it any less than that the bullet will rotate around in the case and pop up a little bit.

What I do to measure max OAL with a particular bullet is to seat it too far out, try to chamber it, twist the seater die one turn, try again, repeat. If you smoke the bullet with a candle it'll make the marks from the rifling show up very nicely. It's not as accurate as some methods, but it's easy and works well enough for me.
Once I"ve got my OAL, I do some arithmetic to calculate how much bullet length is the case, based on the case length, OAL, and the bullet length. Actually I made an Excel spreadsheet to do the calculations. And I use it to keep track of the numbers for each bullet/case combo.

With respect to crimping in the lube groove, you probably don't want that much crimp anyway. One of my rifles requires that I take the "bell" out of the mouth of the case so it'll chamber the rounds (I'm talking a couple of thousandths here), but most of them, I leave the bell in as it doesn't seem to hurt.

Good luck.

Chris.