Surplus Powder

[7s&8s]

What's the best surplus powder out there for 7 & 8mm Mausers? Not particularly interested in top-end loads....I have to keep better notes whilst around Buckshot next time... Was it WC844?
Anybody have any experience with WC680 and WC820 in reduced, say 15-1700fps range? Price looks right.
Thanks, in advance for your opinions and thoughts... Tom

[StarMetal]

I don't know if it was 844, but I have 844 and I really like and use it in alot of rounds. One of my favorite uses, which it works really well, is the 7.62x39 in my SKS.

Joe

[Buckshot]

............Hello Tom! That was one snazzy looking M1935 Mauser you had. A good powder IMHO is WC872 or WC860. In the 7x57 with it's smaller bore, a full case of about 60.0grs will launch a 172gr cast slug at 2400 fps. This is close to the original ballistics. Both my Brazilian and M1897 Rem RB in that caliber has shot the RCBS 7mm-168 to that speed very well.

The 8x57 with it's larger bore (less pressure) will still cook along at 2000 fps with a heavy slug. In both instances they will shoot nice and clean.

For lesser speeds use less powder. I like 42.0grs in the 7mm as that gets you about 1775 fps. Ditto the 8mm. You would benefit with the use of some dacron on the powder. Not so much to keep it against the primer as it is to merely build pressure.

A nice thing about the WC872 & 860 numbers is the freindly price of $32 for an 8 lb jug. In the 7mm, that 42.0gr charge of WC872 costs less then half of a 20gr charge of $18 a pound powder. About like getting your primer and GC for free, or shooting twice as much for the same money.

.............Buckshot

[David R]

Where do you guys get this surplus powder. I never heard of it. I just buy the canister stuff at the gun shop for Big $s.

[waksupi]

Dave, I, and many others, get ours from Bartlett's Reloading. Search for Gibrass on the web. There are also some other suppliers I'm sure others will add in.

[Ed Barrett]

Where do you guys get this surplus powder. I never heard of it. I just buy the canister stuff at the gun shop for Big $s.

Try this outfit too. I have done business with them several times and was very happy with the transactions.


http://iidbs.com/hitech/

[Linstrum]

Hey, there, Tom and David R., how ya doin'?

The other guys have got it covered, all I did was to hot-link their dealer URLs below so you can click on them to go there.

Dan at Hi-Tech is at:

http://www.hi-techammo.com/

and

Jeff Bartlett is at:

http://www.gibrass.com/

They are the two big players in surplus powder; there are other suppliers but most of them buy from those two dealers and consequently have to mark up the price. Dan at Hi-Tech has the better price for most powders but sometimes his stock on hand is limited compared to Jeff Bartlett. They also carry other milsurp ammo components, like the brass cartridges the powder came out of and the bullets pulled from the brass. Except for CCI #35 that are for the .50 Browning, they don't normally have primers, though.

I buy from both of them, but be sure to check out both sites before making a purchase because when buying powder you have to pay the hazmat charges unless you pick up your shipment in person, so the best deal is to buy their minimum case quantity and they will pay the hazmat fee for you. You can mix and match to make up a case amount, so before buying 32 or 40 pounds of powder think over what your needs will be for the next months or years, or you can get together with some buddies to share the cost of a case. Sometimes Dan can squeeze in five jugs to fit in a case if there is enough room for it, so don’t forget to ask about getting five jugs under one four-jug hazmat fee if you have five jugs of powder you want to buy. If you want to know what kinds of powder to buy for which pistol/rifle/shotgun application then get back with us here and we will tell you all sorts of lies – er, I mean information on what does what best. Personally, I have at least one jug of each of what they sell, including Hi-Tech’s new Super Slow powder salvaged from 105 mm recoilless cannon cartridges. Over all, the powder that I burn the most of is WC872 (WC860 is so close there is no difference for small caliber cartridges like.30-06), but I shoot milsurp rifles almost exclusively so my preferences don't mean anything to a shotgunner (but then again neither would casting your own bullets, except for shotgun slugs, either!).

One of the many universal truths about shooters who reload, especially shooters who cast their own boolits, is that those who buy surplus powder at 10¢ or 15¢ on the dollar, as well as use low cost or free scrap lead like wheel weights or lead sewer pipe to cast said boolits from, WE DO NOT SAVE MONEY.

Not even one precious cent!

We simply shoot ten, twenty, or even thirty times as much as anybody else. If you like shooting 400-500 rounds through your 7mm and 8mm Mausers (or whatever you have that propels precision prepared pressed primed powdered plumbic pills to very high velocities) before going home for the day, every weekend, for years, WITHOUT wearing out the barrels, do what we do!

Next topic is Felix’s World Famous Lube (FWFL for short), as well as Ed’s Red bore cleaner and powder solvent. I’ll let somebody else with more know how on those subjects take it from here. Any volunteers?

[Wayne Smith]

Likewise, I know nothing about these powders other than what I read here and on the sales sites, and that's quite limited and, here, quite scattered. How about some of you experienced guys maybe putting together a list of the powders and the case/calibers most useable with those powders with cast boolits? Appropriate velocity spreads, if you know them, would also be helpful.

I've been stymied by the Hazmat fee issue, being far away from picking up any and questionably gonna use a couple of 8lb cans, at least until I retire... If I can use one powder for, say the 38/357, 44Mag, 7x57, 8x57, 7MAG, 405 Win, 45-70, or any combination of the above with cast boolits it would be helpful to know. Oh, add .308/30-06 to the list, but I'd bet if it works in the 7-8mm's it will work in those.

If anybody can do this, it's at least worthy of a sticky. Maype even a new category, to combine this information in one place.

[sundog]

I use surplus SMP231, #7, 820/H108, H116, Data Powder 73, WC844/2230-C, CMR100, 860, IMR 7383 (found a REALLY good jacketed 30-06 load for high power) and prolly a few others. Every bit of it is good, and it's cheap. Two other sources are Pat's ( http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/whatsnew.htm ) and Powder Valley ( http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ ). Nice thing about this stuff is there's enough in a jug to experiment and still have enough to last awhile when a good load is 'discovered'. A chrono is quite helpful!

As far as the original question about the 7 and 8mm Mausers. I would take a looksee at 844/2230-C, also. Accurate's web site has some good data for 2230 and the surp seems to be very close. At $8/# there's always a way to burn it all up. A few weeks ago I even loaded some M1 Garand ammo with that powder. Seems to work fine. sundog

[Junior1942]

This morning I ordered an 8 lb jug of WC820 (n) from Jeff Bartlett at http://www.gibrass.com/ With shipping and hazmat it'll come in my door at $11.76 per lb. Considering powder is around $25 per lb with tax here in the boonies, I saved some dough.

I'll use the WC820 (n) in 44 mag pistol at 1100 fps and 357 mag rifle at 1575 fs.

[Buckshot]

............For some load data that is ALL surplus powders go to castpics.net, then reserch and data, then to load data. This info was gathered 4-5 years ago and some of the powders are NLA but you can get a general sense of thier use. Lots of the data is still valid.

Naturally treat any of it as general information. Due to lot differences and dates of manufacture, begin conservatively in loading.

Around my area smokless powder usually runs about $20 - $22 per pound before tax. In Winnemucca I about had a heart attack when Deputy Al and I stopped in the ACE hardware and they had Alliant powders like Bullseye at $15.17/lb. I bought 2 lbs of BE, one each Herco, Green Dot, and Win 748. The Winchester powder was $17/lb.

The above prices were VERY resonable. However the surplus numbers are way better, yet. Bear in mind that the limited number of surplus powders mean that you might not be able to get the very last FPS, or that some loadings might be a tad dirty burning.

Some examples of almost perfect utilization for cast boolits are:

7.62x39. With 28.0grs surp 4895 (full 100% caseload) propells the Lee C312-155R to 1925 fps. Superbly accurate, clean.

35 Rem. 46.0grs of WC846 (full 100% caseload) sends a Saeco 200gr #356 out at 2300 fps. Accurate and clean.

8x57. 56.0grs TCCI 5020 (full caseload) send my 240gr slug off at 1950 fps. Very accurate and clean. WC860 & WC872 do as well.

35 Whelen. 56.0grs WC860 and Ly 358009 (280grs) 1875 fps. Very accurate and clean.

As mentioned, for jacketed slugs the cheap WC860-872 pair will deliver design ballistics in the 6.5x55 with 140gr Hornady SP, from a 24" bbl at 2700 fps. In the 7x57 a 175gr Rem Core-Lokt goes 2420 fps from a 29" bbl.

............Buckshot

[TCLouis]

StarMetal
Tell us more about WC844 in the 7.62X39.

Load data and performance information would be great

That combo interests me greatly!

[StarMetal]

Louis

I use about 23 grs of it with the Lee 312155 bullet. It was the first load I tried when I got the rifle and by God it was one of the best. It is capable of shooting two inch groups at 100 yards. The SKS is a Yugo and I think very highly of them. My other load is 25 grs of surplus 4895 with the same bullet. It shoots equally as well. The Yugo has a gas switch that you can turn off for grenade use and that is how I shoot it, with valve off. That way I don't lose or chase brass.

Joe

[Willbird]

I guess if you like it Junior you can order enough next time to get him to cover the hazmat.

Bill

[drinks]

Buckshot;
Where are you getting powder for $32 per 8lb?
My Norman Scot pocketbook WANTS to know.
Don

[Buckshot]

Buckshot;
Where are you getting powder for $32 per 8lb?
My Norman Scot pocketbook WANTS to know.
Don

That's what was charged for WC872, and WC860 last I looked. SOme of the 50 series might be similar or a bit higher or lower. IMR7383 is I think running about $28 for 7 lbs. I got a pound of that from Jethrow Strait and used it in the 6.5 Swede, 35 Rem and one or maybe 2 other cartridges. It worked really good for most of'em. In a couple applications it seemed to want to 'peak' as the case approched full. Other then that it did a fine job.

What I'll do is dither around about getting some of it until it's no longer offered.

...................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Ditto on the full case of WC-860 (55.0 grains) and the 8 x 57. Using Buckshot's 8mm Maximum boolit (236 grains), it provided accurate performance, brisk recoil, and clean bore. I didn't chrongraph the loads. A full case in the 30-06 (about 61.0 grains) and Lyman 311291 gave around 2150 FPS and a few powder kernels--use of 311284 might clean that up.

I've rolled the idea of a 6.5 x 55 bolter around for jacketed bullets, and a feature of that choice is its utility with surplus powders and 140-160 grain bullets.

[BruceB]

I just ordered 1000 rounds of 7.62 NATO brass from Jeff Bartlett. It's costing me $18.05 for shipping the stuff to Winnemucca. (Total $98, for 1000 polished, UNFIRED, de-crimped LC cases....pretty good price, I'd say.) This will complete the "needs list" for that new Fulton M-14 which I HOPE will arrive in the next month or so.

I've never gotten into the surplus powder scene, partly because I have no idea about the shipping costs apart from the Hazmat fee. (I know, he'll pay Hazmat on a 4-jug order).

Could one of you Californios please give me an idea of what it costs to have the powder laid-down on your doorstep?

[lar45]

Junior, only 1 JUG? I love the WC820 and shoot lots of it. When I order next, I'll get a full case of it. I've tried 10 gns in the 06 for plinker loads with great success, but I'm too stingy to load it there as I like it in the Magnum pistols too much.

[Buckshot]

..............BruceB, "Could one of you Californios please give me an idea of what it costs to have the powder laid-down on your doorstep?"

I can't really say, for a couple reasons. One is that the last order I made was several years ago and then it was a combined shipment with a couple other guys. It was 168 lbs, I remember THAT! One of the guys figured out his cost per pound and the one I remember was his WC860 came to $4/lb and that was net. Price for an lb jug then was $28 or $3.50/lb FOB.

That was when surplus IMR4198 and SR4759 were available. I bought 2 x 4198, 2 x 4759, 2 x 4895 and 4 x WC872. The IMR4198 turned out to be about like canister 4895 (surplus 4895 is a bit slower) but the SR4759 was just like canister and I still kick myself for not ordering 4 more jugs after trying it. It disappeared FAST off the market.

..............Buckshot

[nighthunter]

what is the difference between the 820 and the 820 PD? I know PD is pull down but is there any difference in the data or performance?
nighthunter

[Junior1942]

Could one of you Californios please give me an idea of what it costs to have the powder laid-down on your doorstep?My 8 lb jug of WC820 (n) cost $64 + $20 hazmat + $10.08 shipping from Kentucky to Louisiana.

[StarMetal]

Fellows, in some of the places I lived reloaders would get together with skeet shooters or clubs as these clubs would order a truck load of powder literally and at super prices. Try inquiring around. They go through massive amounts of powder and can't really afford to buy it over the counter as alot of us do.

Joe

[TCLouis]

what is the difference between the 820 and the 820 PD? I know PD is pull down but is there any difference in the data or performance?
nighthunter
PD is indeed a powder removed from loaded ammuntion. I find small slivers of bullet base in every jug I have have, but have not had any problems with accuracy because of it. The other powder has been stored in "airtight" container an controlled storage conditions.

Each lot is different to some degree and one should start with lowest listed loading data and work up from there (should be done with ANY new powder anyway).

There are at least two different "speeds" of WC-820 and three of WC-852 out there, so check and see which you have on hand and work up to the best load accordingly.

Purchase from one of the big 3-4 milsurp dealers and one can NOT go wrong.

I just regret putting off the purchase of a couple of jugs of SR4759 . . . NOT likely that there will be any more available.

[7s&8s]

Thanks to all for the insight. Leaning towards being sold on the WC872, once the tax refund gets here...
Any recommendations on primers? See fair bit about magnum primers with WW ball powders.
Dacron with reduced loads?
Thanks again... Tom

[Buckshot]

Thanks to all for the insight. Leaning towards being sold on the WC872, once the tax refund gets here...
Any recommendations on primers? See fair bit about magnum primers with WW ball powders.
Dacron with reduced loads?
Thanks again... Tom

..........My load for the 6.5x55 with the Ly 268645 at 152grs, seated to engrave is 34.0 grs Wc872 and a WLRP (std) + dacron. Nicely accurate. Accurate enough at Winnemucca to bust 5 of those clay birds anyway. A shooting buddy uses the same load in his M96 but doesn't use the dacron.

I really can't see any difference in his accuracy from mine. We're talking 1.5" or less at 50 yards for 5 rounds. Loads burns dirty and the "860 FLick" is called for. Mag primers won't clean it up. You learn to live with it due to the performance. Like having a monkey for a cook. If it's a great cook, you can kind of forgive the occasional hair in your soup, and other bad manners.

I don't recall experimenting with mag primers. The 8x57 load I use is 56.5grs of TCCI 5020 ball (slower then Wc872) and it's ignited with std Win primers. Burns clean as anything, super accurate but it IS pushing a 240gr slug so that prolly enters into the equation.

Get some of the stuff and experiment! Maybe ole BruceB will go in with ya on an order? IMR7383 would be another good one to get.

................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Kind of a postscript here......I have made extensive use of some WC-820PD I got from Scrounger just before he left CA. It's NOT H-110/WW-296 speed, use AA-9 data and start low. It has become THE powder in 10mm/200 grain loads for me, giving fine accuracy at the targeted velocity (1100 FPS) with both jacketed and cast boolits. In the 10mm, it almost exactly duplicates the performance of AA-9 weight for weight. It also gives good work in the Mag revolvers at the upper end of their performance scale using middleweight cast boolits per caliber.

I could really use some WC-846, and a couple other numbers as "refills" for surplus fuels already on board--but my play money this month got eaten up by car needs of the Rotten Daughters. I should have moved sooner on both 852's before it dried up--you snooze, you lose.

[Junior1942]

My 16 lbs, 2 jugs, of WC820 (n) arrived today from www.gibrass.com It took only 5 business days including having to send jeff a copy of my driver's license.

Cost was $64.00 + $64.00 + $11.68 shipping + $20.00 Mazmat = $159.68 = $9.98 per lb.

[Pb head]

You can't beat WC820 for the price even with the $8 rise in price this month. I started out using it for pistols but now I find myself replacing 2400 with it in rifle loads and it works quite well. Just shot it today with Seaco #315 boolit out of an issue K 31 Swiss and got some 1 1/2 inch and slightly bigger 10 shot groups at 100 yds. I think I'll shoot it in a cast boolit match instead of a 03 A3 in the morning.

Pb head

[Junior1942]

My new WC820 (n) meters extremely well, guys, maybe because the grains are so fine. Using the .82cc hole in my Lee Auto Disk measure, I weighed 5 charges. The variance was maybe .05 grs with the average 11.76 grs. The pointer on my RCBS 505 was never exactly on 11.7 or 11.8. It was always somewhere between them.

Same with the .88cc hole. Average was 12.82 grs.

I always compute the VMD of new powder using the 4.3cc Lee dipper. In the case of my WC820 (n), the first 5 dippers weighed 309.1 grs. To get an average of 10 dippers, I weighed 5 more. They also weighed exactly 309.1 grs. By the way, the VMD is .0695.

Using the Lee TL358-SWC in ww alloy with 2 coats of Lee Liquid Alox and CCI small pistol primers in new R-P cases in my Rossi 357 mag carbine, I got the following Chrony results:

.82cc/11.8 grs
AV = 1567
ES = 13
SD = 5 (1" 5-shot 25 yard group)

.88cc/12.8 grs
AV = 1623
ES = 50
SD = 20 (2 3/4" 5-shot 25 yard group)

[Slowpoke]

Howdy Junior1942

Look's like you are going to be in for a lot of cheap shooting for a day or two anyway.:)

I have kept my .357's appetite appeased over the last 17 years with surplus AA 9C and WC 820. 12.5 - 12.8 gr. of either and the 180 LBT has worked a lot of magic for me, Deer, Javelina, one Cougar, truck loads of Coyotes, Bobcats,Greyfox and jackrabbits, ruined quite a few Chula's days along the way as well. Not fire breathing loads by any stretch of the imagination, just good solid loads that are easy on brass, guns and ears when fired out of fixed chambered guns.

I am thinking some of your 820 will find it's way into your 30-30's before to long.

What lot # did you end up with ?

good luck

[felix]

I have kept my .357's appetite appeased over the last 17 years with surplus AA 9C and WC 820. 12.5 - 12.8 gr. of either and the 180 LBT has worked a lot of magic for me, Deer, Javelina, one Cougar, truck loads of Coyotes, Bobcats,Greyfox and jackrabbits, ruined quite a few Chula's days along the way as well. Not fire breathing loads by any stretch of the imagination, just good solid loads that are easy on brass, guns and ears when fired out of fixed chambered guns. ... slowpoke

Yep, I agree 100 percent with the above statement. A couple of years ago Buckshot played around with some WC820 version which showed little velocity variation with loads from 13-16 grains using a nominal boolit weight of 160 grains or thereabouts. So, I've settled on 13 grains with all my boolits that seat no more into the case than a typical Keith would. I've shot several different lots of this powder at this loading and found accuracy and velocity was more than sufficient all of my guns, including levers and revolters, using boolits through 180 grains. Just make sure the powder you have is not a fast lot up front. Must be no faster in speed than AA9. ... felix

[Junior1942]

I am thinking some of your 820 will find it's way into your 30-30's before to long.

What lot # did you end up with ?Both jugs are lot #47320, slowpoke. Jeff Bartlett said that was the same lot # as the AA#9 they're selling now.

I'm gonna use WC820 (n) in lots of loads. Next, it'll be in 44 mag pistol with the Lee TL430-250-SWC @ 1000 fps. I'll also use it in my next batch of 44 mag shotshells where I use 2400 now. I'm about out of 2400, which is what caused me to think about surplus as a lb of powder here with tax is $24 to $25. This WC820 at $9.98 a lb can't be beat.

[BCB]

Lot # 47320 is the same as the WC-820 that I have been using. It is my favorite powder with the 429650 (SRH), 358429 (Security-Six), and 38-148-WC (Security-Six). I wish I would have purchased a couple of kegs of it now. I do have a friend that bought a keg at the same time and he hasn't used it yet. I think he might sell it!! Regardless, I have shoot it side by side with equal charges of AA#9 and they chronograph "just dang near" the same velocity. It is #9 as far as I am concerned. Good-luck...BCB

[swheeler]

Bruce B: just got 48# and shipping was about 18.00, can't be too much more to the desert!
Scooter

[TCLouis]

Pb Head
Are you substituting 1:1 for the 2400?

BCB

Mind posting or PMing, or emailing the WC load using 820 load in the 357?

I shot mine over the chronograph in a 1:1 camparison with the last of my H110 and my 820 was essentially exactly the same in several loadings and firearms.

That said, my 820 was probably purchased in the early to mid 90s back when M-9 was still around (another sleeper that I wish I had more of).

With this older and SLOWER batch of WC820 PD, I have shot the best 50 Yard group out of my Super Redhawk I have ever shot using the Lee 310 CGC bullet and Felix lube and 18.5 grains of MY lot of powder.
THIS AIN'T NO LOADING RECCOMENDATION FO SHOR . . . . UNDERSTOOD!!

As stated on another thread here I am looking at the FAST lot of WC820 (HS7 speed) or the #107 thinking it may work as a substitute for the Blue Dot 30-30 loads I have been shooting.


I hope the 870, yeah that is from the 80s will work in the 8mm with cast just because I have SO MUCH left. Maybe I should try it in the 267 Roberts or AI, it is just a tad slow for full velocity loads in the 6.5X257