To fill, or not to fill - Dacron in 45-70 light loads

[awaveritt]

Do you 45-70 afficianados use fillers with powders like 2400 and 4198? I did a search but seems like two schools of thought. I measured 25 and 30 grains of 2400 and poured them in 45-70 cases and it looks like they fill about 40% and 50%, respectively. Tilting it on its side and taking a look, seems to me this is no worse positioning than one gets with Bullseye in a 38 case, and that seems to work.

My goal is to load some trapdoor level rounds at around 1300 fps using my Lee 405gr RNFP boolits and Alliant 2400. Any load suggestions and what about the filler?

What say you?

[6pt-sika]

When I started shooting cast bullets it was with a Marlin 1895CB in 45-70 . In the beginning all I used was PB bullets and SR4759 . SR4759 "can be" very position particular . And the charges I was using came no where near filling the case .

I originally had thoughts of using dacron fibers to keep the powder down on the primer , but was told by several different people that would eventually cause you to make a melted dacron ring in the barrel somewhere . SO I never tried the stuff . I would always point the barrel up and tap the stock to bring all the powder closer to the primer before shooting and it worked well for me . Later I changed to XMP5744 and this seemed less of an issue . Now I use H322 and barely have enough room to get all the powder I want in the case .

[6pt-sika]

I loaded very light SR4759 loads with a PB bullet for an old original Trapdoor I have and again I raised the muzzle tapped the stock , leveled the rifle slowly and fired with no ill effects 8-)

[6pt-sika]

Personally I think the best thing for you to use as a filler would be plain old toilet paper .

[awaveritt]

My preference would be not to go to the hassle to use filler, if it's not a problem. I am loading these for a friend's original Springfield and, therefore, have not had a chance to test the loads.

I have loaded 10 rounds of 45-70 with Trail Boss at 13 grains but this load only advertises about 1000 fps. I'm hoping to approximate the original black powder loading in velocity.

I want to use 2400 since I have it on-hand and have considered purchasing IMR 4198 since I also load 223rem, for which it is also considered good.

[6pt-sika]

Try loading with whatever powder you choose then take ONE SQUARE of TP and put it over the powder . It can't hurt the barrel , but it can smolder once it leaves the barrel . SO you might give that some consideration as well !

[jh45gun]

I use 2400 and unique in cast bullet loads and use NO FILLER and have no problems and good accuracy. My load for 45/70 is 24 grains of 2400 and A Lee HB 405 grain bullet sized .459

[webfoot10]

Hi All; When using loads of any of the powder you are using. Just fill the case to the top
with plain old Rice Krispes, then seat the boolit. The Rice Krispes will crush and fill the case.
When fired it smells like baking cookies and will keep the bore clean. Works good.
webfoot10

[btroj]

I do not use a filler with 2400 I'm any case. I like around 24 gr with a 405 PB in my marlin. Good accuracy, little recoil, no leading.
I have used fillers in the past but prefer to just skip the extra step plus it eliminated 1 more item that seems to have no good storage place and I have too much clutter on the bench already.

[Larry Gibson]

Awaveritt

A couple things; 1st is a 400 gr bullet in a 45-70 is not a "light load" as it duplicates the original M1873 service load. It is a standard load. 2nd is that 2400, 4759, 4198 and 5744 are powders that many times benifit with the use of a dacron filler with bullets of 400 gr or less in the 45-70 when low or standard velocities are sought.

Many think the little extra time to put a dacron filler in the case is a hassle or extra step. However the gain in accuracy and making the load non - position sensitive is well worth the small effort to me. Using the mentioned powders accuracy improves in all 4 of my 45-70 rifles by 1/3 to 1/2 (2 1/2 - 3 moa down to 1 1/2 to 2 moa). This probably isn't as important if you are shooting 50 - 100 yards but I regularly shoot much farther and the better accuracy through much more consistent ignition is well worth the extra hassle to me. A side benifit is that with a 3/4 - 1 gr dacron filler you will use about 3 -5 gr less powder to achieve the same velocity. This means more loads per pound of powder along with the improved accuracy.

I guess there were more than a couple benifits to using a dacron filler and the last one mentioned is not having to stomp out fires. I have had to do that with friends who were using TP and cotten as fillers. The wads will easily start fires in tinder dry grass several feet out from the muzzle.

The best way to know if the dacron filler is going to work for you is to load and test with and without. Remember to drop back and work up the load with dacron (3/4 to 1 gr filler is sufficient with any of the mentioned powders) as it does take less powder to equal the 1300 fps with a 400 gr bullet in the 45-70.

BTW; I do load thousands of true "light loads" of 45-70 wthout using a filler. With those I use a lighter cast bullet (270 gr Rapine 460250) and a much quicker burning powder (Bullseye) for 1050 fps and excellent accuracy. No filler is needed with such a load as that.

Larry Gibson

[45r]

I've used 3/4 grain dacron tuft tamped down over 24 grains 4759 with 400PB and very good accuracy in my 45-70 highwall.I use 28.5 grains 5744 without dacron with good results also.The 5744 load shoots very well in my 45-70 XLR.

[DLCTEX]

I don't tamp the dacron filler, just push it down enough to be able to seat the boolit without cutting any fibers. Don't want to ever leave an air space between the powder and boolit.

[MGySgt]

I have used dacron in 45/70's and 45/90's with 3031, 4198 and 2400. Accuracy has gone from 2 - 3 inches at 100 to sub inch.

As Larry Gibson stated you MUST re-work your load with and without dacron (or any filler for that matter).

[MtGun44]

OK, experts --- I AM NOT ONE, isn't there some connection between dacron
filler used incorrectly and ringing a barrel?

I've seen posts on this, never used dacron and seem to remember that some folks
said this could result in ringing, but no details remain in my leaky memory.

Bill

[MGySgt]

While it is possible (i suppose) to ring a chamber with Dacron - no one that I have talked to was there when it happened. It was always - 'A guy I know said this happened.......'

A user is going to use 1 grain or less of the substance and if they fill the air gap between the powder and the base of the boolit there is no problem. There is a possibility if there is a significant air space between the front of the tuff of dacron, and it is packed tightly and the back of the boolit and the charge is a real fast pistol powder (like BE) I suppose that could act like a barrel obstruction.

Every loading manual that I have read warns against leaving any air space and ensure you use enough to fill the air space (don't get stingy with it).

And alway work your load with the dacron - don't add it to a load you worked up with out it.

BP shooters use wads on top of BP to compress the BP - you wouldn't leave an air gap there either, you use enough of the wads to fill the space between the BP and the boolit - same thing here.

One last thing - I have never had dacron melt or catch on fire when I used it. I have had it blow back into my face (mouth) in a bunch of filliments like a dried out dandiline when you blow on one. Doesn't tast good - but won't hurt you either!

[45r]

Some say they tamp their dacron down and some leave it fluffed out.I have a book by Joe Brennen Jr. and he tamps his down but it seems most here don't.Is this a personal preference thing or is there a scientific reason for one being better than the other.

[MGySgt]

I am a tamper - so that the dacron is compressed - no possibility of an air space.
I don't know if the 'Fluffers' get any better accuracy.
Don't care - it works for me and my 45/70's and 45/90's all can be made to shoot MOA if I work my load with good cast boolits.

[jh45gun]

Just to put a fly in the ointment several years ago I contacted all the powder companies and asked about fillers and they all said don't do it they do not recommend it any more. So take that with a grain of salt for me I do not use them. If you think about it I doubt any factory loads use any filler and you can hear there is space in a lot of cartridges if you shake them

[Larry Gibson]

I used to tamp the dacron down as a "wad" because that was what everyone said to do back then. All worked well when cartridges were single loaded or very light loads used. However I began to get hangfires with the heavier loads with rounds 3- 5 out of magazine fed cartridges. I disassembled a couple that I removed from the magazine after shooting a couple rounds with them in the magazine. I found the wads had moved forward under recoil and the powder had even migrated in front of the wad. I went to a filler and have never had that problem again. I have not found a single case documented where a dacron wad "ringed" a chamber. Lots of hearsay and gunshop BS but no proof.

Anyways, I don't use the dacron as a wad for the simple reason stated, not because of any assumed "ringing" danger. I shoot thousands of cartridges from .223 up through 45-70 with dacron fillers every year without a hint of problem. I also chronograph and measure the pressure of thousands of such rounds and have not had a single indication of pressure spiking. I shall continue the use of dacron as a filler becuase it most often does improve ignition and accuracy. Again, the load MUST be worked up using the filler. Do not simply substitute the filler in an already worked up load without it.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

thanks Larry -

By filler with dacron I assume you mean a large enough amount that it fills the remaining
space in the case. Is that correct? Is this in the "normal" fluffed out volume or do you
compress it at all?

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

MtGun44

I use enough dacron to fill the air space between bowder and bullet. Tests in several cartridges show that the amount of dacron does not have to be exact. Thus I "eyeball" the amount when I cut strips from dacron batting sheets and cut the strips into chunks of 1/2, 3/4, 1 or 1 1/4 gr (whatever is necessary for the cartridge used. Compression has no adverse affect. I generally use a 3/4 gr chunk of dacron with medium powders such as 4895 in cartridges from .308W up through '06 case capcity. Sometimes a 1/2 gr with slower powders or in the smaller cases like the .223. The larger chunks of 1 and 1 1/4 or even 1 1/2 gr are used in large volume cases like the 45-70 or my 375 H&H. I use a 22 cal seciton of cleaning rod to simply poke the dacron down into the case so all of it is inside the neck and case. Seating the bullet then pushes it the rest of the way. A small length of clothes hanger for the poke rod works best for smaller caliber cases like the 22s. A pencil or 1/4" dowel works fine for the larger calibers of .375+.

As you mention, the point is to fill the air space to keep the powder to the rear of the case against the flash hole.

Larry Gibson

[uscra112]

XMP5744 (now AA5744) with no filler.