405gr 4570 lee mold

[dangerranger]

I just got a H&R Bufalo Clasic in 4570. Im looking for a 400gr bullit and saw lees 405 HB. in doing a search I found several people have had good luck with it. I just have a couple of questions.

first, the hollow base design. is it a nose pour mold?

how easy are they to use? [ bullits drop easily]

what alloy seems to work best in these. soft lead? WW? 20 1?

and last, does this design seem to expand to fill the bore, or do I need to slug the bore first before I order?

thanks in advance, Ive never seen a hollow base bullit so Im not really shure what it is. just a dimple, or more like a deep hollow point. DR

[Win86]

The lee 405 HB is a deep concave bullet (not nose pour) designed to fill out easily at lower velocity in the old trapdoor rifles (and others) made during the later part of 1800's. Many of these guns have over-sized groove diameters so the HB opens up easier than trying to expand a solid base design.- Having poured thousands of the Lee .459 HB bullet in 405, This bullet design expands perfectly for me, I shoot them often in my new Shiloh sharps as well. I have one old trapdoor that goes .461 and this bullet fills it out well enough for 2 inch accuracy at 1200 fps. I have fired them using both smokeless and black with equal results. My lead is pure with a pinch of tin added to help casting. Have not used WW or harder lead but then I don't push this bullet beyond 1250-fps in anything having others for that work. Bullets fall easily from the molds and I don't size them, just luble and load. One caution I'll mention that worked best for me: by useing two molds, neither gets too hot and as they are aluminum you must watch tempt. In this manor, I can ladle pour at a good rate, making several hundred bullets in short order each time I cast. As these molds are low cost, owning two is easy on the budget and to be truthful there are four in my shop having picked up a few used ones at gun shows for under $5.00 but having to fix the handles on one.

The key with this mold IMO is proper casting speeds and not going to fast.

Hope this helps- Win86

[Nobade]

I use that mould quite a bit. Alloy is mostly stick-on wheelweights and/or jacketed bullet cores. Pretty much whatever soft lead I can scrounge up. I had to make a bigger expander plug for my die set so as to not size the bullet down while seating it, but now it works fine. Lubed with Emmert's lube in the summer or Pearl lube in the winter, they shoot fantastic in the trapdoor, C.Sharps 1875, and hopefully the Marlin 1895 that is supposed to show up tomorrow. We shall see. 70gr. Goex ctg, droptubed and compressed to allow the bullet to be seated to cover the lube grooves. Regular rifle primer, and you're good to go. No leading in anything, great accuracy, and easy to cast. Carries plenty of lube to shoot all day without wiping. It's one of Lee's better moulds to have.

[Larry Gibson]

I have to disagree with Win86; his comments about the HB expanding ala minie style is incorrect. This bullet is a replicant of the M1873 45-70 bullet. The HB is there strictly for maintaining weight while keeping the same external dimensions. One can see this fact by reading the fine print under the platte drawings of the bullet in the old Trapdoor manuals and in the justification/reasons for the change to the 500 gr bullet. The skirts of the Lee 405HB as with the original M1873 bullet are too thick to give proper minie bullet style obturation at BP velocity/pressures. This fact led the Arsenals to develop the 500 gr bullet that would obturate and fill the bores properly.

Not to say that very good accuracy can not be had with this bullet though as it surely can as Win86 says. I have shot thousands myself through my trapdoors with satisfaction also. However my mould drops them over the groove depth of my .461 Trapdoor. I shoot them as cast or size to .41615. If your H&R BC has a groove depth of .458/.459 I would suggest a PB'd bullet for even probable better accuracy. You will also avoid the HB hassle (some think it is a hassle) and can get at least 2 cavity moulds that way. The Lee 405HB is a good bullet for 45-70s with barrels larger than .459 but out of my 3 .458/.459 barrels the flatbased bullets always shoot more accurately, particularly with Lymans 457124.

Larry Gibson

[dangerranger]

Ok I slugged the bore today and found it to have a micro groove barrel with a measurement of .456. that was just inside the muzzle. if the Lee mold drops that much over size do you think Ill need to size them or look else where? somewhere I read that micro groove works best with the harder alloys. I have alot of wheel weights and a few hundred lbs of soft lead to work with. thanks DR

[Win86]

Larry,
Oh Boy, I may be wrong of this bullets intended design and for that I stand corrected, however that is what someone at Lee told me long ago when first buying the mold as I was looking for something to shoot in my Traodoor guns. Perhaps I was "told what I wanted to here"? Regardless, it makes no difference at least not to me as to this bullets specific design history so I'll leave that to experts of which I am not one. The bullet works and works well in the 45-70 and is an easy one to pour as well. What is important for me is this bullet, and if cast soft enough does do as stated and that is, help fill the groove easier than plain base bullet, at least in my guns it does do that if shooting soft lead with smokeless powder. not black.
Thanks for setting the record streight. I know a few guys who will be interested in hearing this.

Win86

[Larry Gibson]

Win86

No problem with the misconception as it is a very common one. It is naturally assumed that all HB bullets are ment to expand ala the minie. However the HB according to the arsenal platte is not a hollow base, it is refered to as a "dished base" and specificall mentions it is to maintain the given weight with specified external dimensions of the bullet. It is confusing with the Lee but it is a replicant of the M1873 bullet that Spence Wolf worked with lee to produce. Good thing about them is they mostly cast oversize and shoot great out of TDs as cast. They also shoot very well in other 45 cal rifles as you mention.

I particularly like the 405 HB over 25 gr of 5744 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler. It runs 175 fps out of my TD target rifle and shoots less that 1 1/2 moa at 100 and 200 yards. I know 5744 is not supposed to need a filler but it does so much better with it. Last time I chronographed the load the ES was 22 with an SD of 8 fps for the 5 shots. Group for that 5 shots was 1.45" at 100 yards. Alloy was 50/50 WW/lead. I sized them at .4615 and lubed them with my beeswax/olive oil (6 to 5 parts). Cases were WW with WLR primers.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Well, I have no idea of the intent, but it works like a minie in my old worn out trapdoor.
This gun was throwing everything sideways until I tried the Lee 405 HB in pure lead over
12 gr Unique.

Got great groups, it made a shooter out of a gun that was unusuable with jacketed or normal
solid base lead designs.

Bill

[DLCTEX]

Quote:The lee 405 HB is a deep concave bullet (not nose pour) designed to fill out easily at lower velocity in the old trapdoor rifles (and others) made during the later part of 1800's.
Just for clarity: The mould is a nose pour as the hollow base pin fills the base of the cavity, leaving only the nose end to get the lead in the cavity.

[dangerranger]

after slugging the barrel Im not shure if thats what I need or a smaller bullit. lee also makes a 405 flat base that is suposed to pour at 457. or at lees price get them both. I found them at FM reloading for $15 and $17. DR

[brad925]

I just got a H&R Bufalo Clasic in 4570. Im looking for a 400gr bullit and saw lees 405 HB. in doing a search I found several people have had good luck with it. I just have a couple of questions.

first, the hollow base design. is it a nose pour mold?

how easy are they to use? [ bullits drop easily]

what alloy seems to work best in these. soft lead? WW? 20 1?

and last, does this design seem to expand to fill the bore, or do I need to slug the bore first before I order?

thanks in advance, Ive never seen a hollow base bullit so Im not really shure what it is. just a dimple, or more like a deep hollow point. DR

I bought one of these molds awhile back. I casted up about 100 rounds made up of WW's using a gravy ladle and had only 3 that were wrinkled the rest where great. I should add i had never casted anything before this. I have not loaded any and tried them yet but hope to soon.

[Larry Gibson]

Quote:The lee 405 HB is a deep concave bullet (not nose pour) designed to fill out easily at lower velocity in the old trapdoor rifles (and others) made during the later part of 1800's.
Just for clarity: The mould is a nose pour as the hollow base pin fills the base of the cavity, leaving only the nose end to get the lead in the cavity.


DLCTEX

Not sure where you got that quote from. If you read Spence woulf's buook you will find the drawings he did for lee to make the nose pour replicant of the m1873 bulllet. The original M1893 bullet was a swaged bullet of 1 -12 tin - lead alloy. The alloy was changed to 1 -16 in 1878. The old Frankford Arsenal references to accuracy of the m1873 bullet during the development of the M1881 bullet (the 500 gr bullet) state the problem was the M1873 would not "bump up" to groove diameter as intended. There is no mention of the cavity in this.

The description of the bullet from manuals circa 1878 and onward state; "There is a dished cavity in the base of the bullet, sufficient to bring it to its proper weight without affecting its general form."

There also is a much less pronounced "dished cavity" in the base of the M1881 50 gr bullet for the same reason; "to bring it to its proper weight without affecting its general form"

In TD barrels with .459 sized bullets with softer alloys of 1-40 or 1-30 I have found by recoving bullets that the base does expand somewhat in a minie fashion, especially with the full service 70 gr load. However with 1-16 or WWs alloy I could find no indication of expansion of the skirt or any "bumping up". Accuracy of such loads was still equivilent to that of service requirements. With the softer alloys accuracy improved. Regardless of the alloy the real increase in accuracy came when I quit sizing the 405 HB down to .459 and then depending on "bumping up" for the bullet to fit the groove diameter of .461. I began shooting them "as cast' and accuracy dramatically increased. This should come as no surprise because we all know that shooting cast bullets undersize is not conducie to best accuracy. It is the same with BP loads. Since the TDs have very minimal if an throat I then sized them to .4615 and found accuracy to be as good as it will get. I had a long telephone conversation with Spence Wolf about this years ago before he died. He was in complete agreement and knew the best accuracy would come with correctly sized bullets. However, his intention was to replicate the original service loads which had .459 bullets. He did that very well indeed and his book is a must for all those who load for origianal TDs.

I am not being critical off the use of the Lee 405 gr HB bullet at all. I still use it as my standard bullet in my H&R Carbine. I cast it of 1 -40 alloy and load over a duplex load of 4759 and GOEX Cartridge for 1150 fps. This regulates it to the M1879 rear sight range settings. I size the bullets at .4615 even though the H&R has a modern groove depth of .458. The accuracy in the H&R is excellent. Occasionally when my loads are tested in others original TDs they are amazed at the accuracy. There were more than a few "hostiles" amazed at the accuracy also of the old TDs during the Indian Wars. After all, it was the Springfield Armory's M1873 trapdoors that made the West safe for the M1873 Winchester;-)

Larry Gibson

[dangerranger]

ordered mold , and they were out of the flat base molds. so Ill give the HB a try and see what happens. Larry does your H&R carbine have the traditional rifling or the microgroove? DR

[Larry Gibson]

dangerranger

The H&Rs (both OM and Carbine) have 8 lands and grooves. They are not like Marlins MicroGroove rifling. The lands are a little wider than those you would see in a 4 groove '06 barrel. The lands and grooves appear to be equal width and the grooves are .004" deep. The H&R barrels hadle smoke and BP loads without problem.

Larry Gibson

[DLCTEX]

Larry, the quote was from post #2 by Win 86 and I'm sure he misspoke about the Lee mould not being a nose pour. Just didn't want anyone to be confused by the statement.

[dangerranger]

I found that UPS had droped my molds on the porch today. Now I just need cooler weather . Oh Well, winter will be here soon and Ill be wishing it was warm again DR

[BSkerj]

I used one out of my 1895 Marlin lever and I could not get it to group consistently. It is a micro barrel. I shot it over 3031 using different load workups. I finally ended up getting a Lyman 459124 PB and have not looked back. By the looks of the above statements, it looks to be made for lower pressures. The bullets dropped right out of the mold and looked pretty good.

[justingrosche]

I cast the Lee 405's at 30 to 1, and loaded I some for a friend to use on his hog hunt. 16 gr of Unique put the Boolit through both sides of a 600lb Hogzilla.
Justin