Joe, 12 ga slugs, Lyman airgun pellet

[44man]

I loaded a bunch with Blue dot and once fired WW and Remington STS cases. I also loaded some in new Fiocchi cases. I fired some with 4756 too. Blue dot shot the best and the Rem case was the only one that saved some wad petals. They shot pretty good. The case is thick and it takes a special seating tool to get them in. There will be a ridge at the front of the slug showing through the case.
You can see what is happening, the wad is driven into the slug, expanding it out to cut the petals. Looking at the petals the grooves from the slug are crooked showing gross upsetting, ruining the slug. I had a lot of holes that were not round and some showed keyholing. The slug is a mass of mis-shapen lead going downrange. Even the new cases left no petals.
I even tried shot buffer in the hollow base. Some had a cork wad under the slug and showed the worst keyholing.
My next step will be to cast some from water dropped WW metal to see how much they deform. Then I might make a sizer to take them down to fit in a thick steel shot wad.
This slug needs a form fitting, two piece plastic sabot to hold it's shape. The crush section of a wad does not protect it.
Damned gun will give you a headache from the bench.

[44man]

Finally got the picture

[35remington]

44, did you try the internet trick of lubing the inside of the shotshell case with motor mica or graphite to prevent the wad petals from being grabbed by the fire-roughened plastic case and being torn off between slug and case wall? Even new cases may need help, or the loads reduced.

I found that my results were the same as yours-when the petals were torn off accuracy was nonexistant. This lubing may help somewhat in combination with your harder slug and lower pressure. Less deformation, slicker = more petals, better accuracy.

I got better accuracy at the lower velocities. I am assuming less pressure helped.

[Leftoverdj]

I've had my best results with Federal wads. The pedals are thicker, tougher, and untapered. My best results ain't been none too good, though.

[swheeler]

44 Man; IIRC it was a paradox rifled barrel on an 870? Something rough in the rifling cutting wads or maybe just slug design- too thin skirt?

[ovendoctor]

cast your slugs out of harder lead [dont use pure lead it deforms]
I have been shooting thies for 6 years and the only deforming i found was in a deer that was hit from front to back:mrgreen:

:castmine:

[StarMetal]

I didn't have that problem with my slug. I don't remember what I cast them out of, but I'm pretty sure it was pure lead. I think it was WW's.

I advanced up from that slug to my own jacketed slug. I miked the barrel, got the bore and groove dimensions. I found that 5/8 copper tubing was the right size. I cut them to size with a pipe cutter then annealed them. I made a tool to combine the Lyman wasp-waisted slug with the jacket swaging them together. Then I worked up a load. Boy they looked awesome and they performed incredibly on my test medium. They were accurate too. I showed them to two of my friends and they thought I should sell them or patent them or something. I never got to shoot a deer as I moved out that shotgun only state and sold the gun and mould. Back to rifles again. I did shoot a cat from my deer stand one day and well, I had to pull his body out of the hole the slug sucked him into. It pulverized him. I can post some pictures of the slug, I'll do that later.

If everything is right, the Lyman slug works good, at least the 20 ga does out of a rifled barrel.

Joe

[44man]

Yes, I dusted the inside of the cases and the wads with motor mica. I don't think the wad is "grabbed" because the new Fiocchi cases were very slick and it sheared all the petals. My bore is very smooth, it is a Hastings. I didn't have this problem with the Lee slug but I never got the accuracy with them either.
I tried some hammer heads and shot a 2" group at 100 yd's but they are expensive. If I was hunting with the gun I would just buy those. The sabot/wad is formed around the slug and goes with it to the target.
I also have the Lyman regular slug but can't keep any kind of wad from blowing into the hollow base. I tried filling the base with a little resin and a pile of micro balloons and still didn't have accuracy. I don't know why the Winchester slug shoots, I duplicated it with no luck. Long ago I was able to keep 5 WW slugs in a teacup at 50 yd's from a smooth bore. Brenneke slugs sprayed the whole field.
I never had any luck with Remingtons and the 3" slugs suck too.
It is fun messing with slugs but there is no good selection of components unless you buy ready made sabot slugs.
Joe, find a picture!

[44man]

From examining the wads, I think they are cut off right away from base expansion.

[StarMetal]

Lee puts that crossbar in there slug, but they only make it in 12 ga because they told me that they couldn't get the 20ga to work right. You need a hard thin disc of something under your slug to keep the wad from being forced in the base.

Joe

[StarMetal]

44man

Here's the slug, remember I used the bottom of a winchester wad without the pedals incase you ask me how come the jacket doesn't come off and stick in the barrel. Also I swaged these together, look how short that Lyman wasp-waisted slug is after assembly.
Joe

[44man]

Now, your talking! I have to make some. How did you make the swage tools?

[StarMetal]

44man,

Don't forget I make these groove size for a rifled barrel. There is no need for them in a smoothbore. Remember also too that there's no pedals on the wad. They also require a the thinest hull you can find. Hadn't we moved to a rifle state for deer season, I would have progressed on to brass 20 ga shells. Basically I would have ended up with a big bore elephant rifle. The swage I don't ever remember, it got pitched out when I sold the gun and we moved. There was alot of experimentation with this until I arrived at the final product. I feel they were much better then anything on the market.

Joe

[Bman]

If you were to do that again, couldn't you modify the mould to cast a solid base? It would seem to eleminate the need for as complicated base wad. Like you said essentially a big bore elepohant gun. I have been thinking about getting a Savage 12ga slug gun then using shortened brass hulls to make a cartridge. My line of thinking was something similar to a SWC design and a case full of black powder or a substitute like 777.

[StarMetal]

Actually it would be an easy mould mod as that Lyman mould uses a hand base plug, just make a plug that is flat. Would make the slug alot heavier though. I would imagine change it's ballistics alot too.

Joe

[charger 1]

I've noticed that if you measure the diameter of a win red wad with lyman slug in place its way to big a dia to get down borewithout leaving one or more petals behind

[44man]

I sized some slugs to fit a thick, unsplit steel shot wad to see if it will stay with the slug to the target. I think it would be good to have it as guidance.
I also made some out of water cooled WW's loaded in the red wad to see if the petals will be cut.
Can't shoot yet, been raining for 3 days so far.

[StarMetal]

I've noticed that if you measure the diameter of a win red wad with lyman slug in place its way to big a dia to get down borewithout leaving one or more petals behind

Lyman is specific to which wad to use with that slug. They send along a little data sheet for loads and what wads to use.

Joe

[44man]

Another thing I never thought of is the barrel is chambered for 3" shells. Maybe the wads are being cut when the slug expands into that 1/4" past the case and is slammed into the forcing cone. I have to find some 3" shells and figure how to load them without going to a full magnum load. Need a short payload wad with a longer crush section.

[StarMetal]

Cross that one off 44man, my chamber was the 3 inch one. It's rough insides on the shell hulls, plain and simple. I had eliminated the problem with my jackets slug. Now I'm wishing I'd kept that shotgun for experimentation purposes now.

Joe

[Greg5278]

44Man, since you are making your own molds, why not make your own truncated cone bullet to fit a BPI wad? The components used for the lyman design are a compromise, and don't really do anything well. Mike the wad petals, and you will see the difference in thickness. This canting of the slug pinches off the petal on one side. I have had much better luck with full bore slugs to enegage the rifling in shotguns. In a smoothbore they cheap Sabot concept migvht work.

Judging from the wads I have miked, I would make a .670-.675" diameter bullet, and use the most concentric wad I could buy. I was going to make such a mold, but I have no need. My smoothbore shoots fine the way it is with lubed slugs, and the rifled shoots well also. Why use cheap inconsistent components? 44Man, I will send you a few 770 grain slugs if you need a few. Greg

[44man]

Greg, I would love to try a few, plus I would need load info. I will PM you. I plan on making a few moulds but have been short on time lately. I want one to fit the real thick, steel shot, unsplit wad too. I am curious to see if they will stay with the slug.
Joe thanks, I didn't think the longer chamber would effect anything.

[StarMetal]

Greg,

I disagree to an extant, when I used new hulls as mentioned my accuracy was rifle grade.

Joe

[OLPDon]

44man

Here's the slug, remember I used the bottom of a winchester wad without the pedals incase you ask me how come the jacket doesn't come off and stick in the barrel. Also I swaged these together, look how short that Lyman wasp-waisted slug is after assembly.
Joe

StarMetal

Great looking slug, I think I will turn a swage on my lathe for for my lyman 12 Ga. mold.
My question is what powder did you use and the weight. I have been reloading for years both shotgun, rifle ect. With the shotgun I go just by what reloading manuals state (shot weight/ Powder weight) . How much have you found you can go +/- powder weight grain wise before preasure is a danger factor.:confused:

[StarMetal]

I used both Unique and Clays. I weighed my slug and went by loads in the books for same weight, but at reduced charges at first. I didn't try to beat factory velocity and I didn't really try to push them really hard. I use to shoot into a big box filled with sifted dirt that was dampened. I used factory slugs for a control basis. I also tried some jacketed rifle bullets in the media.

There are countless ways to make a jacketd slug like that. A better one I believe would be to make a mould that receives the jacket and then pour your molten alloy in it. This would give you a good bonded jacket/core. Before I used any of my copper pipe jackets I annealed them. Not having any pressure testing equipment I was very afraid of having the shotgun blow up, so I took each step slowly and carefully planned out.

Joe

[OLPDon]

Joe

Thanks for the info it should be a interesting project. I like most on the Cast Boolits forum enjoy tinkering just for the sake of it.

Don