marlin 336

[ian45662]

My lyman Manuel says that 30-30 cast amo shot out of guns with micro groove rifling shouldnt go over 1600 FPS for best accuracy. Have you guys found this to be true? What do you think would be a better gun to shoot cast amo in a marlin or winchester 94 or something of that sort?

[excess650]

My lyman Manuel says that 30-30 cast amo shot out of guns with micro groove rifling shouldnt go over 1600 FPS for best accuracy. Have you guys found this to be true? What do you think would be a better gun to shoot cast amo in a marlin or winchester 94 or something of that sort?

Its BS. There are a lot of folks who routinely run full power cast bullet loads through microgroove with excellent accuracy. The bullets may need to be larger in diameter than nominal 30cal jacketed, but thats a function of your barrel and chamber.

[imashooter2]

Its BS. There are a lot of folks who routinely run full power cast bullet loads through microgroove with excellent accuracy. The bullets may need to be larger in diameter than nominal 30cal jacketed, but thats a function of your barrel and chamber.

Concur. I've run a variety of cast 150's through mine at speeds up to 2,200 fps with fine results. My regular plinking load is 15.5 grains of 2400 under a Lee C309-150-F and that runs 1,734 fps.

[stephen perry]

Full power in Cast is not the way to go. Cast was started with the ideals that a low/mid power load works best in Cast rifles. Lubes determine what velocities are compatible with each barrel. Stay in the low/mid power load range with Cast, 1500-1800 is plenty for a 30-30 barrel. Accuracy with Cast is usually better in these velocity Ranges. At 200 everything will work fine.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[diehard]

lyman Manuel says that 30-30 cast amo shot out of guns with micro groove rifling shouldnt go over 1600 FPS for best accuracy


I think that Ranch Dog would die laughing at that statement. Not only is he one of the best bullet designers out there---who happens to speicallize in molds for Marlin rilfes-- he is also a damed nice guy. He also publishes "use at own risk" load data for his molds on his site. As stated above his bullets are slighlty oversized . If you check out Ranch Dog's site you'll see he leaves 1600fps far, far behind. Using a recenty acquired RD mold I get max loads out of a 336W with great accuracy for a levergun hunting rifle.

[Firebricker]

I think the cast boolit not doing well in micro-groove is just a myth. The full power load for my WIN94 shoots great in a friends 336. The correct BHN for the velocity a good fit and lube is what matters. FB

[Suo Gan]

When I first started I had problems with my 30-30 in 336. Part of my problem was because of a bad constriction under the barrel stamping that I was unaware/ignorant of. I got leading and some pretty abysmal accuracy. I fire lapped the gun, and sized the boolits .002" over bore and it shot good! Decided to play around and sized some .003 and .004 over bore diameter...it shot just as good if not better. (Part of what helped me was this site...but I read, and reread Veral Smiths book and Beartooth Bullets book...which are somewhat the same book...Verals being more technical and harder for the novice to follow, but once it all began to sink in, they were both very helpful to me)

Target shooters are on a quest for sub MOA. I used to find it very frustrating that I could not get that kind of accuracy out of my humble hunting arms. I was using off the rack cheap, simple equipment and was getting 2 MOA and I was unsatisfied. Then I began to think about it. Good accuracy and the ultimate in accuracy are very far removed from each other in realistic expectations, time spent developing and loading and also equipment price. I began to understand that it was entirely possible to establish procedures which would permit reasonable accuracy from my hunting rifles. Micro grooves present more of a challenge until you understand the beast. Those shallow grooves are less forgiving than deep sharp grooves. They don't engage that boolit as positively, this is especially noticeable at high(er) velocities (over 1800 fps). So really micro grooves are more of the same (boolit fit, boolit lube, bore condition, load used, etc) So play by the guns game and give it what it wants...take a careful slug measurement, possibly firelap out bore constrictions, lob an oversize boolit of about 170 grains and it will kill a deer and probably do it within a 2" bull. You don't need elaborate techniques or equipment to do it. Just the correct size boolit. I suggest starting with a boolit like 311041 or TLC 311-165 RD. These boolits are more forgiving for the beginning caster because they make critical fit of boolit to chamber throat easier. If you choose a bore ride design for your first go round with the 336 it might cause you to use strong words and spend a good bit of time reading up on "the best way to remove lead from your bore."

As always, keep it simple and keep a smile on your face!

[GabbyM]

In my observations. Most shooters who reduce 30-30 loads do it for reduced recoil or increase firearm life. Heavy charges will also reduce case life expectancy. Soemtimes you plink while other times you hunt hogs and bears.

In a 336 you can take a 173 grain Lyman #311041 and H-335 at 30 grain charge weight for 2,200 fps and just shoot it. Then if you want you can try 33.0 grains. Size bullets at .310” or some rifles will like a .311”. Mine gets tight in the throat with .311's. I've never tried the 33 grain load but would imagine it's one of those three shot case life loads I've heard guys complain about. It's (33.0 gr H-335) the max listed charge for a 170 grain J bullet.

With a 30-30 you can shoot higher velocity with cast bullets than you can with jacketed bullets. Due to lower friction. You hit the pressure limits of the case and gun before your boolits give up.

[ian45662]

Sorry for the dumb question but what is fire lapping?

[Suo Gan]

Sorry for the dumb question but what is fire lapping?

Fire lapping is the process by which a shooter purposefully places a grease containing grit on his boolits and shoots them (SLOOOWLY) downrange. Done correctly this removes rough tooling marks and bore constrictions.

I suggest that you buy the Beartooth bullets manual and familiarize yourself with the search feature here and on the old board. There is enough reading to keep a new guy going for at least a few years without too much overlap.

The main point of my response was that you should try to keep things simple and understand that there is a big difference between fantastic accuracy and adequate accuracy. With reasonable care in casting, good shooting results should be EASY. There is no reason to apply all the principles of sub MOA to hunting and plinking loads. I feel for the guys who are weighing each boolit that they are shooting dirt clods with. I would recommend that you start with a gas check design, since they can also be used successfully without the gas check for light loads. For thirty thirty I recommend Lyman 311041, Lee 309170 (remember that Lee molds are cheap for a reason, they will require more work to get quality boolits from the git go) or RCBS 30-180FN and the ranch dog boolit. I think that the 30-30 Marlin is a great place to start with cast boolits. I would start with reduced loads and work your way up gradually.

Have fun!

[jlchucker]

I can say nothing more than the other guys have already said on this subject. I don't really know the velocity of my own 30-30 loads that I have shot in Marlins. I load for accuracy first, and I've never had a boolit bounce off of anything shot with any of my 30-30's at 120 yards or so. I expect that all of mine go around 1800-1900 fps based upon what the loadbooks say. I do load a bit slower with the special-order 311041 plain-base that was a group buy here a year or so ago. Although I've never hunted with that boolit I don't think it will perform poorly on game in the kinds of places that I hunt.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you want jacketed performance and accuracy with cast bullets, learn to paper patch. It makes it easy to get full velocity and accuracy with NO leading in any caliber.

[JIMinPHX]

My lyman Manuel says that 30-30 cast amo shot out of guns with micro groove rifling shouldnt go over 1600 FPS for best accuracy. Have you guys found this to be true?

That's a bunch of horse puckey. I shoot the 150-grain Lee RNFP out of a microgroove barrel at over 2300fps with better accuracy than I get from factory ammo.

Reloader 7 is my powder of choice for that combination. Air cooled wheel weights + 1% tin are about all you need. You can water drop them if you want to for slightly better accuracy, but the terminal performance on game will suffer.

[jtaylor1960]

If you look close in the Lyman manual most bullets are sized at groove diameter and always with Lyman #2 alloy.Like told by the others above using a bullet that fits and the "proper"alloy for your needs can change your results drastically.

[ian45662]

Thanks for the info guys. I am going to load for accuracy no matter what the vel. I just wanted to know if the rifles sweet spot with the bullet I use was 2000 fps the the combo would be up to the task if you know what I mean

[MtGun44]

For fun shooting, stick with the 1600 fps range, no need to go hotter. For hunting, you can
work up the full power loads.

As previously mentioned, Lyman uses groove diam boolits in many calibers. I have found this
to a recipe for mediocre to poor performance. .003 over groove diam seems to be a great place
in rifles, altho in .45-70 I get good with only .001 to .002 oversized.

Good luck.

Bill

[Marlin Junky]

Is that an older Lyman manual? I can't image Lyman still publishing misleading information like that. I would have said something like the same rules that apply to hammer forged barrels probably apply to microgroove barrels; your results will vary with groove depth, the number thereof and rate of twist. I bet Lyman never recognized the distinction between pre-68 microgroove and post-68 either. If you want to go fast with shallow rifling, heat treat your WW's, check 'em and use a lube with sufficient viscosity. Lyman manuals used to perpetuate conventional wisdom without imparting an understanding of why (or why not) things work, I would hope things have changed within the last couple of editions.

MJ

[JJC]

The Bear Tooth manual is well worth reading. I have a 1894 44 mag with a micro groove barrel that has tight constrictions and wide spots. About passed out the first time I slugged it. Shoots just fine at 1680 fps with #2 alloy. I have a 1895 4570 firelapped barrel that has being pickey in load work up, go figa