Am I underpowered for elk

[charger 1]

I was planning on using 350 gr WFN LBT's in my marlin 95 for elk,but I hear people saying that is light.Then again I also hear that the gun likes big bullets,yet I run these at hot copper velocities at 4575,and out do copper accuracy. So I guess I just a bit:???:

[Bass Ackward]

I was planning on using 350 gr WFN LBT's in my marlin 95 for elk,but I hear people saying that is light.Then again I also hear that the gun likes big bullets,yet I run these at hot copper velocities at 4575,and out do copper accuracy. So I guess I just a bit:???:


Charger1,

It all depends on your experience level, your mix, your hardness etc, etc. We had JDL stick a 500 grainer in the off side on a broadside. So my answer would be that some shot angles should not be taken with that combo. Have you tested this bullet, at your hardness, in some type of test medium like wet news print and water filled containers to see how it works the thickness of an Elk? That would be better information for you to make a decision on than anything we could say. Because you could SEE the answer.

Let's put it this way. If I lived in Elk country where if I didn't get presented a shot today, no big deal, I would try tomorrow, I would not hesitiate to use that bullet. If I was paying big money to go in for a three day hunt where one chance was all I might get, I would go heavier or use a smaller meplat bullet. IF you had someone else with you that could back you up, I would use that bullet. But some guys wouldn't like that idea. So it still comes down to you.

[charger 1]

At the distances I feel comfortable taking a shot it has blown through 14" of wet pine planking. went through a sealed plastic 45 gallon drum while blowing the screwed on lid off. Been completed through a fresh railway tie edge ways. I mean man oh man,I hear about more umpum req'd but it seems to me I'm holding some umpum.....Oh ya once I blew the 45 gal drum to pieces I went to the butcher and filled it full of every kinda scrap he had,packed it well,then added water to fill any void and add hydraulics. Through all that several times.HHHMMMMMM

[Ranch Dog]

Charger, I would think it would be more than adequate. In that you said "at hot copper velocities", I assume you are using a hard alloy that enables you to shoot them at these types of FPS.

A number of guys have killed elk with my TLC432 (265 to 280-grains) and I killed a nilgai (265-grains) with it. I suspect a number of the TLC460-350-RFB guys will do the same on elk this year.

[JDL]

charger1,
I have had 2 out of three 510 grain .45 cal. boolits stop under the offside hide of broadside shots of about 50 yards. These were paper-patched lead with a BHN of 5.5 and MV was 1650 fps. No bones were hit on one and the other only 1 rib on exit. I had tested these @ 25 yards in wet newsprint and had found them to penetrate 15.88". My control load was a .30-06 180 Nosler Solid Base @ 2730 fps which penetrated 16.75".
Last year, I tested some RCBS 45-300 FNGC (330 grains) and Lyman 457193 (430 grains) into like media. Alloy was air cooled wheelweights and the RCBS @ 1850 fps penetrated 16"; the Lyman @ 1455 fps, 19.25".
So, in answer to your question, it would probably have total penetration on broadside shots, but I would avoid steeply quartering shots. I don't know your alloy hardness, but if it resembles anything like air-cooled W/Ws, it should make a very dead elk. -JDL

[Bass Ackward]

Charger1,

When someone asks is this enough, .... how many variables there are to consider. When I go back and re-read what I posted, I realize that my butt is hanging out there for the guy who comes along and says I have shot 5 with a 243 using 100 grain bullets and got every one. Are there conditions that go along with that 243 usage? You betcha, but all you get is that it works. We used to use 22 shorts to butcher beef. One shot in the head. A 22 short will kill everything on this continent. But I wouldn't recommend that either. Someone hunting locally has an entirely different perspective than that of the guy traveling and paying big bucks that this may be the hunt of a lifetime. That guy has to have cahonnies of solid rock to risk cast. Think about it. That's why you should use cast on what you have local first until you get some background.

Some guys also have entirely different ideas of what is acceptable when hunting. Some guys have no qualms about bow hunting. Because of the way and "possible" length of the death, I choose not to participate. Consequently, some guys are comfortable at a shot of sitting down and lighting a cigarette and watching the animal bound for a mile or so and then falling over. If you have that luxury, then you have different opinions as to what is .... or can be successful. And every time that you make one of these comments, you assume that the other guy has or will be in similar conditions and understands what you wrote completely.

There are so very many of these .... conditions and standards, you now understand why there are so many different calibers in so many bore diameters with so many different bullets available on the market today. They all work to varrying degrees and fail too. That's why you get so many opinions here. Then you understand how .... difficult and almost silly some of these recommendations from us sounds when you realise stuff was killed for centuries with black and lead.

It can be frustrating for the reader if they don't understand where that recommendation comes from. What you also need to understand that the whole idea is to get "YOU" to be successful so that you will continue to try cast for hunting. A failure right off the bat, will likely end a lot of peoples use for that purpose. I have well over 1000 kills on deer and probably 80% or more of that is lead only because of cost. I think that total where I quit counting is actually about a two month total. I have had as high as 200 in one week when our problem was bad. That came at a time in my life when we were poor and needed to farm. I used to have one gun in my hands, one in my belt in the front, and one behind and two on each shoulder so I could have enough ammunition to stop what I saw. Some guns were borrowed and ammunition donated by neighbors. Ammunition was sometimes donated and staged all around the property and the gun used based on availability of ammunition at that point. It was a job then that soured me on hunting for years after that. And .... it still has some effect on me today. I only have 40 something kills on larger / tougher animals, with lead, in various calibers. So opinions you recieve from me are based on that background.

My recommendations, and I assume others are not as well, are not to belittle anyone elses or discourage anyone. Only to explain what I have seen with this aboveaverage experience level. Sometimes I will explain why, like now. The difference between my experiences with a hard, wide meplat traveling fast and a soft slug with a smaller meplat traveling fast it that both meplats will get destroyed about the same time. The new shape of a hard lead slug is unpredictable. Soft lead always rounds. As the slug slows dramatically, the soft lead slug will continue to expand and expand again as it is worn away until it exits transfering shock the whole way. If a hard slug breaks, it can go to a point or a wedge that loses all of it's ability to perform and you are left with on game results of the poke two holes strategy. When it works, it is devastating. When it fails, it can be disheartening. Soft lead is self renewing at lower and a wider velocity range and has statistically performed for me more like jacketed in on game performance. Smaller meplats create more aero dynamic bullets that allow higher strike velocities than wide ones beyond 100 yards. But you need more weight in case it is worn away. There is my logic in a nut shell and why I recommend what I do.

But by far, experiment for yourself. Trust what YOU see as you move along this trail called experience. Just learn to think and be flexible enough adjust and adapt if required. And most importantly post your results along with pertinent information that others may need to gain confidence or make a decision.

[JDL]

Well said Bass! -JDL

[SaMerch666]

Charger
I can relate to you of Three different Elk took with cast bullets in a 45/70. The first two were cows The bullet I was using was the RCBS 300 gain GC It was cast out 1 part tin to 20 parts pure lead the load was going about 1650 fps. The rifle I used is a Win 86 Repo 26 inch barrel. The first cow was shot broadside at 60 yards rib to rib both lungs were hit she never moved. But she was still on her feet for about 20 to 30 seconds. The recover bullet was on the off side you could literally see the bulge in the hide. When the bullet was latter weighted it had lost 2.5 gains of weight and had expanded to .833

The next cow was shot quartering away at a slow trot. The bullet entered at the back rib taking a lung then the great arteries off the top of the heart then it broke the off shoulder. That bullet was also recovered from under the hide. The bullet had lost 7.6 grains of weight and had expanded to .870. This cow stopped all movement when hit but stayed on her feet about 20 seconds before she collapsed.

Both bullets did tremendous damage of the organs. The bullets held to gather quite well probably due to the velocity not being real high. After some thought would I use this same bullet again. The answer for me would be no for the following reasons. The bullet did a lot of damage but didn't exit. When you think about it a Elk can cover a lot of ground in that amount of time, and its always the wrong direction you want to drag them. What I am saying is I preferred to have two leak holes to one. I used to believe in the energy of the bullet being used up inside the animal when I was younger. But common sense will till you that it doesn't work that way. If it did you could hang a sack of sand say about 100 pound and shoot it with a load that produced 2000 foot pounds of energy. Sack will hardly move so much for foot pounds of energy.

This is getting long and I don't type to well. The Bull Elk was shot with a RCBS 405 GC cast out of WW. The rifle was a trapdoor grimmer that I had built with Greenmountain barrel 28 inch long. The load was 67 grains of fff GOEX black powder I do not have the fps on that but would guess it to be around 1300 fps. The bull was shot thru the lungs on the first shot and stayed on his feet. He was moving in to the timber so a quick follow up shot was taken it was put thru both shoulders. The great arteries was taken off the top of the heart with the shoulder shot. On the lung shot I had my two holes and it left a good blood trail. Don't get to hung up on velocity with heavy bullets it not needed. Hope this helps


The only thing carved in stone that don't change is your Grave Stone

[waksupi]

Bass Akwards, you have a misconception on archery hunting, that many others do. There was an extensive study, under the supervision of veterinaries, in the US and Africa, on the efficiency of death by arrow, as compared to rifle bullets. It was found the animals lived around six seconds longer with an arrow, in a similar placement. The animals would travel 25 yards average after being hit with rifle, 35 with bow.
An animal wounded and lost with a rifle, has a much lower survival and recovery rate, as the wound is larger, and more tramatic. The arrow wound, being from a surgically sharp blade, heals comparatively quick.
By the way, wounding and loss numbers were identical.

[MT Gianni]

Ric, I think the misconception starts because you hear more bowhunters say I hit it but it got away. You hear the rifle hunters say I must have missed, but no one says " when it didn't fall in it's tracks i was too lazy to walk across the canyon and look". We all know the Bubba's are out there the archers aren't shy about it. Gianni.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Akwards, you have a misconception on archery hunting, that many others do. There was an extensive study, under the supervision of veterinaries, in the US and Africa, on the efficiency of death by arrow, as compared to rifle bullets. It was found the animals lived around six seconds longer with an arrow, in a similar placement. The animals would travel 25 yards average after being hit with rifle, 35 with bow.
An animal wounded and lost with a rifle, has a much lower survival and recovery rate, as the wound is larger, and more tramatic. The arrow wound, being from a surgically sharp blade, heals comparatively quick.
By the way, wounding and loss numbers were identical.


Ric,

I .... understand what the figures are for everyone else. I .... also know what they were for me. :grin: I am probably the guy that squews those figures to the negative for ya.

My point there was not to bad mouth archery or others that do it .... to their satisfaction, but that negative results can affect our decisions. I choose not to for that reason.

Man has ta know his limitations.

Besides, a man like me up a tree has to be breaking a law somewhere.

[GooseGestapo]

BassAckwards;
Your'e my kinda Man !!!!

Quote:

Besides, a man like me up a tree has to be breaking a law somewhere.

We have to have met at sometime in the past 25yrs!

IE: GooseGestapo=GameWarden

[waksupi]

You won't catch me up a tree, either. I hunt on the ground, and can get close to animals, without perching on a limb to ambush!

[357maximum]

I know you fellas are not harking on bow hunters, but I feel compelled to write this for those that do not know, or understand.

A bow is no different than a firearm...in the right hands both are efficient procurers of meat, in the wrong hands both will maim and not kill, or not kill immediately. Over half my bucks were shot with a bow, and out to 40 yards all critters died the same with either weapon. Most of the I hit one and did not get it stories from archers are just that STORIES, no one can hear a bow go off any distance away, so the bubba with a bow says he got a shot so no one thinks he stinks at actually being able to set himself up for a shot, and the truth is at bow ranges there are a ton of people out there who do quite litterally suck at setting themselves up for a good shot. Lack of attention will greatly hinder you when you need your quarry within 40 yards for a clean kill, yes I can hit a Mackenzie kill zone further than that I just choose not to shoot flesh further than that, because I cannot do it everytime, everyday, and in every situation like I can at 40 or less.

I have killed whitetails with all manners of weapon and they ALL kill when properly placed. You wanna see some disheartening evidence of what a gun can do in the wrong hands, just go down the state land river flats after gun season and spend some time, the thing is most of the wasted meat should have been able to be found if someone actually cared to try and look. My father in law give a guy the boot from our our deer camp for just such BS, he would shoot and if it did not fall he obviously missed, he was a far better shot than he thought, but a slob "HUNTER" and he was not wanted around us.

The weapon of choice normally has nothing to do with it, it is the man making the choices that make all the difference. I have killed more than 20 bucks with a bow, and only one was difficult to find, and yes that was my fault for taking a shot at the edge of my capabilities, it worked in the end, but not a proud kill by any means. I watch most of my bow kills fall, just as I have with a gun,,poke em in the lungs without severe nervous trauma, they WILL do the death run of about 60 to 100 yards and simply fall dead, no matter what weapon delivered the projectile..disrupt the nervous system they fall down dead or not, a boolit, or an arrow makes no difference.


Now if I had to pick a projectile to pick on it would be buckshot, it is way overrated and way overused, and accounts for (in my eyes) more maiming, and game loss than anything out there,,, due to the most part from guys thinking it is 150 yard kill capable, "you just point it in the right zip code and he is done". At bow hunting distance it would be fine, but people try to use it too far, with serious negative out comes...I would outlaw it for hunting purposes if it were up to me. Here in southern Michigan it is used/misused/misunderstood, and together with dumba$$ed bubbas is responsible for proably 80 percent of wasted game. In the hands of a bow range minded fella it is fine, but not many think that way, and it would be far better if it did not exist, mostly for reasons of it's killing ability being waaay overrated..

Just my quarters worth...

Michael

[Bass Ackward]

You won't catch me up a tree, either. I hunt on the ground, and can get close to animals, without perching on a limb to ambush!


Ric,

Well .... bow hunters seem to be a different breed by being more disiplined and focused. But if everyone had to stay on the ground, I would "guess mind you" that statistics for arrow use would go way worse than those your study recorded.

Frustration at missed opportunities caused by improper stocking techniques would out weigh ambush techniques for descentshots and eventually ruin disipline encouraging longer and longer and eventually poorer shots. This would sqew those stats in that report and make the stats compared to guns far worse than the favorable comparrison of that reportt. But that is only a guess based upon how many people I see can't even still hunt with a gun anymore.

No one practices much (enough) anymore or all of those stats would be less.

[lar45]

Your first kill of the plastic barrel-was it filled with water? I assume so, but did not read it.
Then you refilled the barrel with animal parts and topped off with water and your bullet went through it all with several shots.
Sounds like a real killer load (pun intended) (was your velocity 2575 instead of 4575?) I have only shot Elk with an 06 and 165 corelokt( a few of them) But from your description of the cast performance on the barrel of stuff, I would think it should do fine. I wouldn't be worried about the velocity falling off at longer ranges because your bullet should hold together better at lower velocities. So if you can shoot accuratly at 200yds, then it should be fine or even better than at 50 yds.
Some people say Bla, bla, bla... too far for a lever gun... But it comes down to you and your ability to shoot the gun and how comfortable you are with it.
A lot of Archery people say not to take any shots past 25 or 30 yards, but as long as you know your trajectory and can drop an arrow in the boiler room, it will do it's job. I've shot deer with a bow at over 50 yds, but I'm comfortable shooting at longer ranges and can shoot accuratly at longer ranges. If someone has a hard time keeping all their shots on a paper plate at 25 yards, then they really should be closer. It doesn't mean that everyone needs to be that close though.

When I used to shoot my bow, we would go "Stump Shooting" walk along a trail and pick out stumps or whatever at unkowon ranges and then shoot at it to hone your range estimation in. Maybe do the same with your levergun, try shots at 100 + and some long ones, 250+ just for fun...

I think I'm starting to ramble here.
but I think your load and bullet should do great.
Be sure and take pics to post for us.

[NickSS]

I have used cast bullets for hunting elk in a 45-70. My favorit bullet for the Marlin lever action is an RCBS 45-325-FN that casts at just about 340 gr with the alloy I use. This alloy is made of 50-50 wheel weights and soft lead. Bullets hold together well and I load them to approximately 1500 fps for hunting loads. They work great on elk and will go clean through on a broadside shot but usually stay in the body on a diagonal shot. The last elk I killed was shot with a Lyman 458125 slug using the same alloy it weighed in at 524 gr and was pushed by 65 gr. of GOEX FFG. I used my 26 ionch barreled C. Sharps 1875 rifle on this hunt. My shot was on a spike bull running up hill away from me. It was either shoot or not and I chose to shoot. The bullet went in right between the hams and came out the chest. It took off the top of the hart along the way and did some damage to one lung. The animal hit the ground at the shot and was dead by time I reached it. The range was 40 yards.

[Boz330]

I guided Elk hunters in NM for several years, mostly ML hunts. You can't have too much gun or bullet but you sure can have to little, especially on a front quartering shot. The bullet hole that goes all the way through is much preffered if you have to track the animal. If you have the luxury of waiting for the perfect shot a .257 Roberts will do in the hands of a very good marksman, but that sure didn't seem to be the norm on most of the hunts that I worked. It also amazed me how these guys would spend so much on a hunt and not spend any money on practice ammo. To be fair most of these guys weren't shooter reloader types and in many instances they went out and bought MLs just for these hunts. The areas were primitive only hunts and held some big bulls.

Bob

[brian]

You'll do fine. You'll just have to get close to accomdate the trajectory. Elk are routinely shot with all manner of calibers. I've used 308 and 30-06. Friend of mine uses 270 Win and a 7mm-08 Rem. 7mm Rem Mag is popular. Never lost one yet. You've got a lot more thump at your trajectory limited range. The key, as always, is bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement. If you shoot 'em in the toe they'll run off and you'll never see 'em again. Put the slug where it's supposed to go and you'll have great elk steaks. Good luck.