1858 Rem Pietta

[Harter66]

This hobby is just getting completely out of control.

My daughter sent me this new used pistol (sorry no pix),a typical brass framed Pietta 1858 Rem 44 cal clone ,no book ,no kit ,just the pistol. I have a book now , by email, 6 hours flat!

The book tells me 12-15 grn of black with a .454 RB. The next chart states a max charge of 35 gn black or 28 gn of Pyrodex. 1st question with the qualifier ,I have 3 50cal Hawkens and a 45 cal Junker and have assemabled a few BP loads for my Ruger 45 Colt , so I get working to best accuracy,start light , don't over load , black only or Pyro. Why such a wide spread from the minimum load to the maximum and why is the "normal" window less than half of the expected maximum. Yes I understand the longevity and safety part ,but you can only get so much into each chamber , right ?

Next question . Can an alternate boolit be used safely ? For example a pure lead .454-185 swc with a minimum charge properly lubed and sealed. Seems like I read in these forums somewhere that someone had done or was doing that.

[Bull Schmitt]

Check these two web sites for info on Remington Revolver shooting:

http://www.scorrs.org/

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=55.0

[405]

Harter66,
I think you are over-thinking the issue.

I don't know where the 12-15 minimum comes from. The only thing that matters at the low end of loading for any revolver is to make sure the ball gets out of the barrel.

As far as loading a conical vs a RB in a C&B revolver? Personal choice I guess. I don't know why a conical unless- Better long range ballistics? :) Greater bullet energy at long range? :) Better accuracy?.... well maybe.

The Lyman BP Handbook and Manual 2nd Ed. lists for 44 cal revolver:

Goex FFFg 138 gr RB loads------Start 20 grs, Max 35 grs
Goex FFFg 180 gr conical loads- Start 20 grs, Max 30 grs

I also think unless you cram some unusual type of powder/bullet combo in the chamber (s), you shouldn't have much problem with pressure limits. The Lyman Manual also lists Pyrodex loads but I tried and quit BP substitutes just after they first came out- back in the 70s?

You're bigger issues may be: avoiding chain fires, reliable functionality as a repeater, cleaning.

[Harter66]

Those numbers came straight from the Pietta book.

The conical is due to I have a SWC mould and a RNFP mould but no RBs or mould of appropriate dia..

The pistol was dry fired some before coming to me as the hammer was pretty beat up, I expect that I'll need nipples before it can shot safely really the #11 caps fit tightly on 4 of 6 the other 2 fall off so #10s . Right ? New nippels for #10s.

What is the cyl. sealant/lube of choice? I've used bore butter in the Hawkens ,but don't like it for my maxiballs as in the summer heat ,well 75* plus temps,it runs and won't stay in the grooves, id expect it to run out of the chambers if there were any time at all between load and shoot.

[405]

If the conicals don't work or you decide to try RBs.... they're readily available and not too expensive. I hear ya about not having a mold for them. But, the Lee mold is only $20.

Yes, about changing out the nipples! Leave any kind of caplock around long enough and sooner or later a wannabe Wild Bill Hickok or Jim Bridger will dry fire them :(
When you go to replace, double check the style, size, height and thread pitch. May require a C&B specific nipple wrench.... a "use the right tool" kinda thing.

For hot, summer ML shooting requiring a grease type lube I use Crisco stiffened with my Felix-type lube (already in batches for other cast bullet applications) or one could just stiffen Crisco or veg oil with beeswax. There's about a pazzillion suitable types/recipes for hot weather muzzleloader/C&B use out there.

[Southron Sanders]

Hate to bust your bubble, but generally brass frame revolvers will eventually "shoot loose," (i.e., the frame stretches!) if they are fired with MAX LOADS. The brass framed, open top, percussion Colt clones are the worse to be affected by this malady. I prefer the steel framed Remington repros for just this reason.

The top competition shooters in the N-SSA in the revolver matches usually prefer to use moderate powder charges and the swaged, round balls rather than conicals. You need a ball that "shaves a ring of lead" when it is seated in the cylinder. This makes sure you have an "airtight" fit to the chamber walls. This prevents chain fires.

Also, many chainfires are the result of loose fitting caps-so make sure your caps fit your nipples snugly.

Lube: Some shooters smear a heavy, water pump grease over the chamber mouths of a loaded cylinder. The water pump grease dosen't run in hot weather and lubes the ball adequately when it is fired.

Wonder Wads seated under the ball and on top of the powder also help. Another advantage of Wonder Wads is that they also "sweep" some of the powder fouling from previous shots out of the barrel.

I use ONLY Black Powder in my percussion revolvers. I tried some Pyrodex back in the 1970's and found that in a humid climate, if left uncleaned Pyrodex fouling is much MORE CORROSIVE than Black Powder fouling! Of course, wheather you use Pyrodex or Black Powder, be sure to clean your revolver shortly after shooting it!

HAVE FUN! GOOD LUCK!

[Harter66]

Southron , I don't plan to shoot it a lot. I do want to shoot it right away just so I can say I did. It was after all a gift and required some work to get it up to a point where I can think about some shooting.

I did cast a few swc from pure lead the chamber fit seems good . It is more a materiel on hand thing than cheapness . I'm only an hour from Scheels,Cabellas,or Sportsmans Wharehouse,or 40 min to "Moe's bait and gun". Though it maybe hard to believe work is an hour and a half the other way with even less availible. I lived ,untill about 6 weeks ago in a county the size of Maryland with just over 3000 people the last head count gave a negetive growth estament. The new home is in the next county about the same area 25000 people. Still 20 minutes to Wal-Mart. It is just 5 minutes of dirt road/wash to bust a cap unharassed for free.

Anyway I guess maybe a quick trip in to Reno is in order for a loading stand,a dozen nipples,a couple tins of caps and and RB mould or a box o balls.

[docone31]

Get a box of .454 swaged round balls, some #6 caps, some Crisco, either mixed with Beeswax, or not. A powder measure that can go to 30gns.
If you stay around 25, or 30gns, you can fire a few without stretching it.
Most slack happens around the back of the cylinder where there are steel out posts. They get hammered down, and the cylinder gets quite loose.
They are a great shooting pistol.

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
+1 on the Round Ball. I do not shoot competition but I have generally found all my Muzzle revolvers shoot a RB at least as accurate as the conicals.
Get a mold. If you are planning on shooting that revolver a while a mold will pay for itself real fast and RB is Very easy to cast. The plus side is there are all sorts of applications for pure lead RB´s. They work great for slugging barrel throats & cylinders (size down or "Smush up" in a vise). I have loaded shotguns and my .69 musket with them. They are a bit big for a wrist rocket but they will put a solid thump on garden raiders.
Mike in Peru

[Harter66]

The search is on for an RB mould in my region. In the mean time I have had a successful 1 cyl shoot with the SWC . Since this was my 1st shot both with this pistol and a CB I'm feeling pretty good about about the offhand group getting 4 of 5 into 4" at 20 yards. The 1st shot went low and left , operater error I expect. I'm still aflicted with the stupid smirk of remedial success.

[docone31]

Well, I am not so sure.
Even with percussion pistols, there is an hesitation upon firing. It takes a touch to get really good with them.
When I take my wife to the range, we take the pistols, and a rifle. Then, we take the smokepoles, and centerfires. I then take the pistols, and percussions. She and I are pretty moderated when it comes to firing. Not the best like when someone practices with one pistol. Not the worst.
However, with pistols, we practice at 50yds. Rifles at 200yds. Small things show up then.
One day, just for hars, we went to the 10yd position. It was actually a waste of shooting day. We helped some newcomers to the club after firing one set, laughing, and putting it down for the day.
All that pistol time at 50yds, 100yds with the Walker, makes close up a snap.
You will get used to it, and probably find it quite enjoyable.

[KCSO]

Target shooting with the 1858 we would load 12-15 grains of powder and filler to have a light recoiling accurate load. For service use you put in as much powder as the cylinder will hold and still be able to seat a ball, usually 28-30 grains of FF or FFFg for maximum power. Just as you don't need to shoot full house 357's at paper same with the remmy, just use as much powder as you need to get the job done. The filler is just to let you seat the ball close to the end of the cylinder if you gerase over, if you put a wax wad under the ball just seat it tight on the power and forget filler.

[docone31]

KC, you are correct on that one.
I use the Brass Traditions 30gn for full house, I have a black plastic one that loads 20gns for range blazing.
Still just as much fun.

[Harter66]

Happily I've become a total trigger junkie , if I have to go more than a couple of weekends wo some trigger time lookout , I get just plain mean, moody, cranky. I really believe it is really withdrawals. Having something new to play with just makes the "fix" that much better. I regularly shoot ,well bore wise 22-50 cal ,and long rifle to 06',a Ruger mk3 to a RBH in 45 Colts. Mostly the pistols are shot around 35 yds with 50 and 100 yrd ventures for the see if I can do it still factor with regular ventures to the 300 yd man steel to "pop"the heart flag. I have much enjoyed my pair of Hawkens and wanted a CB for some time just not enough to spend over $200 to get 1 to plink with or chase rabbits. Odds are if I'm shooting rabbits I am actually bird hunting.

[Harter66]

So I finally aquired a RB mould and all of the correct bits and pieces.

What a difference the round balls made. Although getting all of the chambers the same size and a light chamfer may have a little to do w/it too.

The chambers are now uniform at .442 the bbl is .426. I shot it today and turned in 4 of 6 inside of 3" at 25yds ,the other 2 went a little wide but w/in 3" of POH. I'm pleased at this point overall.

Should I expect more from this? For "just plinking" it is good enough,should I really dig in and do the tuning or just hit the high points and get it to a reliable 3" . Also will tumbling the RBs clean and smooth vs as cast and loading sprue down help w/grouping? Now that I've written it down that sounds kind of dumb. Nothing venturedventured nothing gained......

[JIMinPHX]

The book tells me 12-15 grn of black with a .454 RB. The next chart states a max charge of 35 gn black or 28 gn of Pyrodex.

I ran into that same strange conflicting info when I first opened a Traditions box that contained a Pietta Brothers revolver several years ago. One piece of paper in the box said that the max charge was about half of what the other piece of paper in the box said. Naturally, I was a little disturbed & perplexed by this.

After not getting any satisfactory responses from Traditions, I had someone translate my question into Italian & send an e-mail off to Pietta Brothers in Italy. The translation of their response was that it was perfectly safe to load the larger charge in the gun. They went on to say that in Italy it is common practice to use a more dainty charge & that is where their recommendation had come from, the common practice, not the maximum safe charge. Apparently the other sheet with the larger charge listed on it had come from Traditions, not Pietta.

[JIMinPHX]

I shot it today and turned in 4 of 6 inside of 3" at 25yds ,the other 2 went a little wide but w/in 3" of POH. I'm pleased at this point overall.

Should I expect more from this?

That is pretty close to as good as I have shot one of those things with home cast balls. I've gotten better accuracy with store bought balls from both Speer & Hornady though.

I'm not sure whey my balls don't fly as well as the store bought stuff. Perhaps it's the sprue mark. Perhaps I have voids inside the ball. Perhaps my alloy (recovered cable sheathing) is not as good.

I haven't really taken the time to dig into it very deeply. Pretty good is good enough for most of the shooting that I would do with a cap & ball revolver. I could afford to shoot a few factory balls if I ever needed it to do better than that.

Those things are pretty sensitive to being loaded correctly. If you don't load each chamber the same, then accuracy degrades quickly. I use a Wonder Wad under the ball & I also put a little Wonder Lube around the top of the ball after loading. I have found that if the amount of Wonder lube is not even & consistent from chamber to chamber, then accuracy will suffer. I have also found that if I don't compress the powder charges evenly, then accuracy will suffer.

[JIMinPHX]

The pistol was dry fired some before coming to me as the hammer was pretty beat up, I expect that I'll need nipples before it can shot safely really the #11 caps fit tightly on 4 of 6 the other 2 fall off so #10s . Right ? New nippels for #10s.

What is the cyl. sealant/lube of choice? I've used bore butter in the Hawkens ,but don't like it for my maxiballs as in the summer heat ,well 75* plus temps,it runs and won't stay in the grooves, id expect it to run out of the chambers if there were any time at all between load and shoot.

Bore butter is great in cooler weather, but I've found that Wonder Lube 2000 holds up to the AZ heat a little better.

I've run into nipple fit issues on Piettas before. It's actually a pretty common problem. I did a fairly detailed write up on it a while back. I'll see if I can find it. In the mean time, the Piettas normally take a nipple with a M6-0.75mm thread, which is a metric extra fine. I normally fit the nipples so that with no cap on the nipple, the hammer falls short of hitting the nipple by around .005"-.015". That way the nipples don't get beaten up if you dry fire the gun.

Edit:
My previous post with nipple drawings - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=98354

Pietta makes nipples for both #10 & #11 caps. The '58 Rem copies that I have seen in the past usually had the #10 nipples.

[waksupi]

Jim, it's probably voids in the balls. When I am working up a load, I weigh all the balls, to be sure I am consistent. It does make a difference.


That is pretty close to as good as I have shot one of those things with home cast balls. I've gotten better accuracy with store bought balls from both Speer & Hornady though.

I'm not sure whey my balls don't fly as well as the store bought stuff. Perhaps it's the sprue mark. Perhaps I have voids inside the ball. Perhaps my alloy (recovered cable sheathing) is not as good.

I haven't really taken the time to dig into it very deeply. Pretty good is good enough for most of the shooting that I would do with a cap & ball revolver. I could afford to shoot a few factory balls if I ever needed it to do better than that.

Those things are pretty sensitive to being loaded correctly. If you don't load each chamber the same, then accuracy degrades quickly. I use a Wonder Wad under the ball & I also put a little Wonder Lube around the top of the ball after loading. I have found that if the amount of Wonder lube is not even & consistent from chamber to chamber, then accuracy will suffer. I have also found that if I don't compress the powder charges evenly, then accuracy will suffer.

[JIMinPHX]

getting all of the chambers the same size and a light chamfer may have a little to do w/it too.


That chamfer should be very slight. You want to shave a full ring of lead off the ball when you seat it in the chamber. That way, you know that you have a full seal all the way around. Only getting a partial ring of lead leaves you in danger of having a chain fire. You can also guard against chain fires further by adding a Wonder Wad and/or greasing over the top of the ball after loading.

[JIMinPHX]

Jim, it's probably voids in the balls. When I am working up a load, I weigh all the balls, to be sure I am consistent. It does make a difference.

Thanks,
I'll look into that first when I start fooling with casting for those things again.

[Harter66]

Jim,
The chamfer is really just a clean line break on each chamber.

Waksupi,
That wouldn't suprize me too much, the new 45469,and 35866 kind of gave me fits getting the hot and keeping them hot. The iron singles were much fussier than the 2x LEE 490 RB. It probably took me 20 pours to get a good ball on the 1st mould, then if I had any delay at all I had to reheat the mould,I had to be quick on the
drop and sprue plate too.

I have put the RB in my tumbler and must say the soft lead for my ML doesn't smooth up as pretty as the WW or 50-50 for the Colts and 38. A trick for the buckshot casting threads.