Lee 6.5 Swede "Cruise Missile" in 6.5 Carcano

[Daryl]

Based on recommendations here, I was able to pick up the Lee 6.5 Swede mold to use for my 6.5 Carcano.

This is a huge projectile, no wonder is was referred to as the Cruise Missile.

I load this with the gas check still in the neck - the round will chamber fine but will not fit in the clip or magazine. It would need to be seated deep enough so that the gas check would be entirely into the shoulder area of the case and not at all supported by the neck.

What's anyone do here?

Thanks

Daryl

[leadhead]

I shoot this boolit in about a dozen carcano and I seat them
below the neck with no problem.
Denny

[mooman76]

I could be wrong but I would think you are not going to get the full benefit of the GC loaded that deap so why not try some without it.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I could be wrong but I would think you are not going to get the full benefit of the GC loaded that deap so why not try some without it.

I haven't seated below the neck with the CM, but I have seated boolits below the neck in 7.62X39. I tried with and without a GC, and the boolits with the GC shot very accurately, with no leading. The bullets without a GC didn't group near as well. I haven't tried with other calibers, so I don't have a lot data. My recommendation is to just give it a try.

G

[DanM]

Your cruise missle mold should drop at .270-.271", so you will likely need a custom .270" inch sizing die, even if it just to apply the checks. Buckshot is making one for me, and always does fine work.
I have never had a problem seating the base below the neck when needed.

[Daryl]

Your cruise missle mold should drop at .270-.271", so you will likely need a custom .270" inch sizing die, even if it just to apply the checks. Buckshot is making one for me, and always does fine work.
I have never had a problem seating the base below the neck when needed.

Thanks, I did get one of Buckshots' .269 to start with.

I guess I'll go ahead and seat below the neck for now and appreciate continued input.

I'm thinking of having a friend mill off about .185" from to top of the mold - that would eliminate the gas check shaft and the lowest driving band - then try using that first lube groove for the gas check.

Any thoughts on that?

[geargnasher]

Daryl, I've milled off one of the recent Midway moulds on one cavity to make a shorter, gas-checked boolit for the Swedish Mauser. Check out this thread to see how they turn out, and you might PM JimInPhx and ask him if he got a chance to shoot some that I sent him for his Carcano. They came out about 150 grains IIRC after shortening.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73781&highlight=cruise+missile

Gear

[JeffinNZ]

DARYL: My OAL for the Carcano/CM is 2.965 and the GC is half out of the neck. That feeds perfectly evertime. I lapped out the front bands on my mould to throw at .269 (previously .267) and this helped accuracy as did a decent crimp. I firmly believe that the BEST Carcano bullet would be a Loverin at .270 with as much throat riding contact as possible. One day.............

[Daryl]

Daryl, I've milled off one of the recent Midway moulds on one cavity to make a shorter, gas-checked boolit for the Swedish Mauser. Check out this thread to see how they turn out, and you might PM JimInPhx and ask him if he got a chance to shoot some that I sent him for his Carcano. They came out about 150 grains IIRC after shortening.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73781&highlight=cruise+missile

Gear

Yes, perfect - that's exactly what I had in mind. But, I'll just have both cavities done. I'll be able to have my friend do it on MOnday and give it a try.

Daryl

[Boz330]

If you have the gain twist barrel the shorter boolit might work better. I haven't found any load for my Carcano that the boolit is stable going through the target. I was thinking about milling mine down but I might even do away with the gas check.

Bob

[Daryl]

Milling is done and cast. Lube groove was about .200" vs. about .252" on the gas check so checks were loose. I used a .250" reamer that I had and chucked it in the drill press and just turned it by hand. Seems to have the new check shaft big enough so that the checks will not pull off with fingers. The do rotate by hand - but they also did before. So, now the real trial at the range yet to come.

The bullet will seat nicely to give just the COL needed and keep the check in the neck.

[Buckshot]

................My fingers are crossed for mucho success!

..............Buckshot

[DanM]

What velocity is needed to stabilize the cruise missle in a carcano? I tried my first loads yesterday, and they hit sideways at 50yds. Velocity was around 1580fps or less. I know some have done well with this bullet, but at what speed?

[Daryl]

Good question on the Velocity.

Here's today's range report.

On all I used 16.0 of 2400 because that's what I use very successfully in the 762x54R out of a Mosin. I'm guessing this gives 1600 to 1800 FPS

I had six with the original length cruise missile, seated to 2.90 COL which put the gas check about .20" below the neck.

At 50 yards I struggled to get it on a target. The two hits I had were sideways.

Then, I used the shortened missiles (12) out of the milled down mold. These seat at 2.90" with the gas check still in the case neck. Only found paper a couple times, but they did appear to go strait in.

So, where from here? Up the load, different powder? Is this rifle/cartridge that far off?

Thanks

[Boz330]

What velocity is needed to stabilize the cruise missle in a carcano? I tried my first loads yesterday, and they hit sideways at 50yds. Velocity was around 1580fps or less. I know some have done well with this bullet, but at what speed?

Dan,
I have the cavalry carbine and the faster I pushed the CM the worse it was. I did manage to get some 2 to 3 inch groups but the holes were oval and this was at 100yd. The loads were really slow. This is why I wanted to mill the mold down some.
My theory is that with the gain twist the long driving area on the CM tends to strip the rifling as it goes down the bore. The shorter boolit driving area doesn't strip quit as bad. This may not hold water but to me it makes sense.
I'll have to check my notes but I was thinking I got my best groups from 5744. I didn't have any luck with 2400. My go to powder is 4759 and even that didn't do very well. If SRS doesn't get me I'll look at my notes tonite.

Bob

[Daryl]

Maybe someone could suggest a load for me to try next with the shorter CM

On hand I have several pistol powders and H110, Trail Boss, RL 7

Daryl

[DanM]

I just ordered a second CM mold from Midsouth (yes, they still have some). I am going to see about having it cut down as described. What weight are you guys getting after milling off the bottom band? Also, I have been gluing checks on because my .270 sizer does not crimp them enough. Will see about opening up the base area a little.
16grs of 2400 gave me only about 1500fps with my full length CM bullets. 25grs of imr4350 clocked at 1567fps avg. That was with PSB filler to the top. Both hit sideways at 50yds. Have some test loads with 27 and 29grs 4350 ready to try. I don't remember the model number, but the Carcano i am using has the common mid length barrel and the adjustable sight. I got some more H4198 that works well in 6.5x55. Will load up some with that soon.

BTW....Midsouth also has both 8mm Karabiner and Maximum custom molds in stock too.

[JeffinNZ]

Interestingly DanM, 25gr of H4350 topped off with 8gr BPI original buffer gives me 1750fps with a CM. I get oval holes in the target but VERY good accuracy. See following:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/SC3522157010030214370.jpg
I now FIRMLY believe a large amount of the problems that folk are having with the CM in Carcanos stems from the bore riding nose not being supported in the throat. When seated to a depth to feed through a Carcano magazine the CM has only two driving bands out front and one of them is only .267 in diameter. Now my Carcano throat is .269 so if you consider only one full diameter driving band engaging what happens went the case neck 'gives'? That driving band becomes a pivot point due to the unsupported nose and the bullet is allowed to skew before it enters the rifling. THIS is where I believe things go wrong.

I lapped out my front driving bands on both cavities of my CM mould to .269 and this made a big difference. If the nose was full diameter I reckon things would run real smooth.

.303Guy is going to make me a full length bearing paper patch mould for my Carcano to test the theory.

[Boz330]

Checked my notes this morning and the 5744 gave me the best group size with the CM. The entry holes were oval but the group wasn't bad.
Jeff, my CM mold throws a a .272 and the bore is .269 and I'm still getting the skewed entry holes. I didn't slug just the throat though, it could be eroded some although this is overall a pretty pristine rifle.

Bob

[DanM]

Hmm....I have been thinking about sendng my prochrono in for service, as it has started to cut itself off sometimes even with a fresh battery. Maybe the problem is affecting readings too. I am sure there would be some difference between the IMR and Hogdon 4350, but not that much. Still, with 25grs, and the same filler, mine are hitting full sideways at 50yds. No point in trying them further out. The bore on this carcano is near excellent, best of the three I have. It slugs .269" at the muzzle, haven't checked the throat. Your theory sounds reasonable. If my results don't improve, lapping may be the way to go for this mold. Are you filling all the lube grooves, or leaving the front one dry?

[Boz330]

Dan, I'm not sure if you are asking me but I dip my CMs in Lee Liquid Alox. I don't have a size die big enough to lube the .272 boolits.
Try some really slow loads and see what that does for your stability and group size.

Bob

[DanM]

Boz....Naaa, don't want to mess with loads that slow. Kinda a waste of boolits IMHO. I am just starting with the Carcano, and realize these little rifles require a lot of 'special attention' to get good cast accuracy. Frustration level is still low. Just tried my very first loads Monday, so I am sure that the development period will continue for a while longer. My cast loads are 1800+ for every rifle I shoot. I am sure the Carcano will require more experimentation than the No.4Mk.2 Enfield or the M48 Mauser did to get to that mid-range performance level, and that is part of the fun for me.

[Boz330]

The 30 cals are a lot easier to work up loads for with cast, but I still think that the gain twist is the buggaboo with this rifle. JMHO and I have been wrong many times before.

Bob

[DanM]

You might be right, and the CM bullet is soo long it may really get distorted in that gain twist bore. I am going to try having the bottom band milled off the extra mold I just ordered. That makes a shorter 150gr bullet that might work better. If it doesn't work in the carcano, I am sure it will be great in the M96 Swede.

[okksu]

Noob question: Is there anyway to mill/cut the CM boolit to get rid of the rear Driving band, without milling the mold, so that the shorter boolit could be tested in a rifle without first doing a permanent change to the mold?

Not doing a Cacarno, but I just cast up some CM's out of the Mid-South mold for a couple of Swedes I have. As cast, I seated a couple of dummy rounds so that there is rifling impressions on the nose, but that leaves the gc'd base extending down nearly to the beginning of the case shoulder. Doesn't seem like that's probably going to work well......

[Hang Fire]

Noob question: Is there anyway to mill/cut the CM boolit to get rid of the rear Driving band, without milling the mold, so that the shorter boolit could be tested in a rifle without first doing a permanent change to the mold?

Not doing a Cacarno, but I just cast up some CM's out of the Mid-South mold for a couple of Swedes I have. As cast, I seated a couple of dummy rounds so that there is rifling impressions on the nose, but that leaves the gc'd base extending down nearly to the beginning of the case shoulder. Doesn't seem like that's probably going to work well......



The Lee Cruise Missile does pose some interesting scenarios. Mine casts WW at .271". My Lyman boolit sizing die is .264", my M-38 Swede groove dia is .2685". What to do?

I seated and crimped the gas check first in .264" LS die using the old #45 lube/sizer. Have a .257" sizing die, so did the nose first thing to take the .263" nose down to just shy of the first band. But with the short leade of the M-38, the boolit would still have to be seated well below the shoulder. So ran the boolit nose first into the .264" die, first and second band to .264", third band at .267" as it entered the taper and left last two bands at .271". Lo and behold and by gosh, can now seat the GC right at base of neck, dummy rounds chamber and fuction fine through the action and all is now well for the CM test drive.

[okksu]

Interesting alternative, Hang Fire. Let me know how that testing goes. It would mean another size die, for me, but hey, if it works......... Still thinking about how to take the back end off without altering the mold. Maybe all this needs to go to a separte Swede thread?

[45 2.1]

I seated and crimped the gas check first in .264" LS die using the old #45 lube/sizer. Have a .257" sizing die, so did the nose first thing to take the .263" nose down to just shy of the first band. But with the short leade of the M-38, the boolit would still have to be seated well below the shoulder. So ran the boolit nose first into the .264" die, first and second band to .264", third band at .267" as it entered the taper and left last two bands at .271". Lo and behold and by gosh, can now seat the GC right at base of neck, dummy rounds chamber and fuction fine through the action and all is now well for the CM test drive.

If Lee would produce these molds cut to the original correct specs, you wouldn't need to go thru this. BRP has the correct specs for the cruise missle............. enough inquiries would get the cherry cut.

[geargnasher]

I nose-size my cut-down Cruise Missiles for my M96 Swedes, with the Lyman .266" H&I die, I run them in nose-first to size the first band to .266 and the second tapered .267" to .2675", this, with .2713" driving bands fits both of my Swedes like a glove seated to engrave with the gas check at the base of the cast neck, leaving .001" chamber neck clearance the way I form and trim my case necks.

But..............no matter what I've tried, it makes elliptical holes at 25 yards and full keyholes at 50-75. I think the boolit is cursed. It keyholes for everyone that tries it.

Gear

[danyboy]

I recently bought a swedish mauser 150gr. Lee mold and a double cavity Lyman 170gr. and was wondering how much Unique powder I could load with each. any help would be welcome.
Thank you.

[geargnasher]

I recently bought a swedish mauser 150gr. Lee mold and a double cavity Lyman 170gr. and was wondering how much Unique powder I could load with each. any help would be welcome.
Thank you.

PM Larry Gibson and give him exact details of your gun/components and all measurements thereof.

Gear

[muzzleblastm38]

where can i find a lee mold cruise missile? cant finde it in lee catalogue

[okksu]

That mold can be found here:
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000066.5SWED

[muzzleblastm38]

thanks okksu

[eric_2902]

I lapped out my front driving bands on both cavities of my CM mould to .269 and this made a big difference. If the nose was full diameter I reckon things would run real smooth.

.303Guy is going to make me a full length bearing paper patch mould for my Carcano to test the theory.

Doing a follow up on this with you. I just started on my Carcano and found this thread. I went forward and bought the CM mold from Midsouth but have a couple questions on your lapping exercise...Can you provide a little more detail on exactly what you did here? got to break it down so a simple minded retired artilleryman could understand :)

also, what size are folks using for gas checks?

Great post by the way.

Thanks

Eric

[JeffinNZ]

I make my own checks and the die throws them at .270(ish).

Lately I have done a lot of testing with the illustrious CM. I have been trying to create round bullets to no avail I might add.

First experiment was to cut the bullet down to 1 inch. I chopped off the GC shank, rear band an bottom lube groove then squared up the new base by running a file over the bullet which was held in my sizing die. Perfectly square bullets, fantastic accuracy in the 2 MOA realm..........OVAL holes.

The next experiment was to more the centre of gravity of the bullet backwards by hollow pointing the bullet. I ran a 2.5mm hole 11mm deep into the bullet. Great accuracy......you guessed it.....OVAL holes. Next I ran a 3mm 18mm or half way into the bullet. OVAL holes. All the holes were perfectly centered.

Bottom line is there is something fundamentally wrong with the CM in a Carcano. My Carcano has a static twist and not gain. My friend, "Tertle" has a Carcano identical to mine and my CM load does exactly the same in his rifle. GREAT accuacy at 100m but oval holes. I have given up now. The rifle is accuarte at 100m which is as far as I want to shoot those sights on wallabies and the recipient is none the wiser of the wobbly bottom bullet.

[45 2.1]

But..............no matter what I've tried, it makes elliptical holes at 25 yards and full keyholes at 50-75. I think the boolit is cursed. It keyholes for everyone that tries it. Gear

No... not everyone has those problems. Powder choice and loading method has a lot to do with that. The cruise missle shoots quite well from the Jap, M/S and Swede when you find out how.

[eric_2902]

I make my own checks and the die throws them at .270(ish).


Can you talk me through how you make your gas checks? Some sort of press? they are pretty much the only variable in my reloading habit besides powder and primers that seems to drive up costs. I have a bunch of brass for all my cals and getting great life on them, i cast for everything and get free lead locally, but the damn gas checks...if i could figure out how to make them it would stretch my shooting budget.

thanks

Eric

[JeffinNZ]

No... not everyone has those problems. Powder choice and loading method has a lot to do with that. The cruise missle shoots quite well from the Jap, M/S and Swede when you find out how.

So what's the secret? I load over 25gr H4350 topped with 8gr of BPI filler and a stout crimp. Bullet is throat diameter.

[45 2.1]

So what's the secret? I load over 25gr H4350 topped with 8gr of BPI filler and a stout crimp. Bullet is throat diameter.

Its not a 1-2-3 set of instructions. You have to learn how to use the filler correctly. That involves learning how much compression to use on the buffer and powder that goes in a particular cartridge. In other words you have to be more than a component assembler as this isn't as simple as it sounds. Buffer does need some compression, too little and it doesn't work and the same with too much. That amount differs per case shape and capacity along with boolit weight. Starmetal took two months to learn how and used a bag of buffer and a couple pounds of powder before he caught on. Now he won't use anything else.

[Tertle]

I make my own checks and the die throws them at .270(ish).
........
Bottom line is there is something fundamentally wrong with the CM in a Carcano. My Carcano has a static twist and not gain. My friend, "Tertle" has a Carcano identical to mine and my CM load does exactly the same in his rifle. GREAT accuacy at 100m but oval holes. I have given up now. The rifle is accuarte at 100m which is as far as I want to shoot those sights on wallabies and the recipient is none the wiser of the wobbly bottom bullet.

Just need to find the bloody wallabies, but yes these CM's are the ducks nuts!

[bkbville]

Tertle: what model Carcano? What sort of twist? What velocity?

With my gain twist (actually a Verterli) I get ovals if I push them.

The harder I make the boolit, the faster I can push them before ovals start showing up.

After putting it on the back burner I've been getting curious about trying to recover some of the boolits to see if I can find out the cause of the instability.

My (unproven) theory is that the gain twist is stripping the engraving so the boolit never achieves rotation sufficient to stablize.

This, though, doesn't jive with JeffNZ who doesnt have a gain twist...

Also - unlike Jeff - when I cut down a test batch, they all went in round.

[JeffinNZ]

Tertle's load and rifle are identical to mine. Static twist, 1750fps. Never been able to recover a CM yet.

[Boz330]

Tertle: what model Carcano? What sort of twist? What velocity?

With my gain twist (actually a Verterli) I get ovals if I push them.

The harder I make the boolit, the faster I can push them before ovals start showing up.

After putting it on the back burner I've been getting curious about trying to recover some of the boolits to see if I can find out the cause of the instability.

My (unproven) theory is that the gain twist is stripping the engraving so the boolit never achieves rotation sufficient to stablize.

This, though, doesn't jive with JeffNZ who doesnt have a gain twist...

Also - unlike Jeff - when I cut down a test batch, they all went in round.

I said this earlier and still think that is the problem. If I slow mine down the group tightens but the holes are still oval. I "THINK" that a shorter driving section may help cure the problem since it will be less likely to strip. I didn't have much relief from Linotype boolits. I am eventually going to try cutting the mold down when I find that rountuit time.

Bob

[rattletrap1970]

This is the information and results of my 1st try with the Cruise Missile.
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/LoadDatacopy2.jpg
I think I need to go a bit faster.

[Shooter6br]

I use 4759 14g with Lee cruise missle

[eric_2902]

This is the information and results of my 1st try with the Cruise Missile.
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/LoadDatacopy2.jpg
I think I need to go a bit faster.

what program are you using for your data?

[rattletrap1970]

Actually it's an Excel Spreadsheet that I made to keep records on loads I've worked up. I paste in a scanned sheet of the specs for the round from Sierra's Reloading manual and I past in a scan of targets I shot with the round in question. It also calculated bullet setback and optimal twist/bullet length (based on the Greenhill formula). If you PM me and give me your email, I'll send you a copy.

[rattletrap1970]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the Ballistic Coeff of the "Cruise Missile"?

[rattletrap1970]

Oh, and another question. I have been re forming .30-06 down to 6.5x55 and have had some success without ruining my cases. Of course the case neck ends up being very long and must be sut down.

My question is, does anyone think there might be some benefit to leaving the case neck on the the re-formed cases on the long side (say .02 shy of the rifling), and using the longer case neck to better support the "cruise missile"? Rather than leaving it hanging way outside a conventionally trimmed case neck.

[calkar]

custom fitting your brass to you chamber is always a plus if you are careful, but the cm has fundamental design/redesign flaws, read all the threads about it and you will see.

[JIMinPHX]

What little experience I have with the shortened CM can be found posted on this thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=97395 I was using shortened CM boolits that Geargnasher sent me. Results were good for my initial low speed short range tests. I haven't shot a second string yet.

I have recently bought a CM mold, second hand, from another board member & milled it down. I think that I took off about .190". I then opened up the GC shank diameter a little bit by plunging a 1/4" end mill & walking off center by .002" in both + & - directions on both the x & y axis. I haven't cast with the mold yet.

[Bullshop Junior]

On the CM mold may I ask which end gets shortened?
If the base end then does it become a PB?

[Bullshop]

I wonder how it would work if you shortened the nose end? That would make it more of a WFN instead of an LFN.
I have an FN Mauser single shot that is stamped 6.5 Roberts. It will not stabilize the CM at all. I have not yet measured the twist but my guess is about 9.5" to 10"
It seems like taking a bit off the nose would be easier, but how much to take off until it will stabilize. If too much is taken off it will be a WC.
There is quite a bit of taper to that long nose so it might work out OK.

[calkar]

Sat. my spotter told me I was putting all shots in a pie plate size group shootin at a rock on the 300m. berm. My 100m. 10 shot group on paper measures 2.75. With a all military swede, 468469's, lyman #2 mix, and 16g. of 2400. Next Im going to speed things up a 1/2 grain at a time till I have problems, back off a bit and Im good to go for high power up to the pigs. After that Ill have to go to j's. But that will cut my cost in half and I can shoot more matches. $30 a box of 100 is just crazy to me.

[geargnasher]

What little experience I have with the shortened CM can be found posted on this thread - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=97395 I was using shortened CM boolits that Geargnasher sent me. Results were good for my initial low speed short range tests. I haven't shot a second string yet.

I have recently bought a CM mold, second hand, from another board member & milled it down. I think that I took off about .190". I then opened up the GC shank diameter a little bit by plunging a 1/4" end mill & walking off center by .002" in both + & - directions on both the x & y axis. I haven't cast with the mold yet.

Jim, that's the first group I know of coming from my shortened mould that didn't yaw. I can't keep those things from wanting to swap ends in flight with my Swedes.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

Gear,
What's your twist rate? What's your groove diameter?

[45 2.1]

I wonder how it would work if you shortened the nose end?

If you compare most of my 6.5 designs, you will find the bearing body length to be almost the same. The noses are different lengths. The noses should also engrave slightly on them. The problem with ALL the 6.5s is that most people use conventional methods (which limit their success) and don't think out of the box. The Swede has been known as the graduate level cartridge and rifle........ and so it is. All the 6.5s will shoot any of my designs (and others if they fit) well. The cruise missle (in all of them) will shoot fine (providing you have a to spec mold) at some astounding velocities if you know your stuff. If you guys want a to spec mold, request BRP cut the cherry......since I sent him the specs some time ago.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of comments on the issue at hand:

1. The Lee "Cruise Missile" was designed by folks on this board and was the first custom group guy we did. Lee kept the specs and has produced it off and on, but it is the product of this board.

2. About ten years ago, many of us worked with the 6.5 Swead. That rifle, proved to be a very difficult nut to crack due to the fast twist. The same problems encountered to day were encountered then. That rifle and others of the ilk are the Post Doctoral level of cast bullet shooting. They are not for the faint hearted, lazy or impatient folks. Most of the issues have been overcome.

3. There have also been a couple of very bitter and acrimonious feuds over how it is done. For that reason many of us, just don't want to even hear about the subject. When the subject turns to 6.5 Sweads and the Cruise Missile, my stomach starts to turn.

Therefore, I would suggest those who are interested in learning how to make this bullet work, do a serious search on this site and also go to castpics.com for information.

I have a primo Huskvarna 96 and it does very well with the cruise missile. I have a pair of the original single cavity Lee molds. A former member who went by Oldfeller was the first honcho and when the molds came, the did some sophisticated optical measurements and tweaked the molds before shipping. The subsequent Lee molds have always been inferior to that first run.

Oldfeller left the board as a consequence of one of those bitter feuds. He was cranky, but also very, very knowledgeable. I never had any problems with him and wish he were still around.

Addendum: I have been corrected and the Cruise Missile was not the first group buy on this board. There was another before the Cruise Missle, and it was a pointed 6.5 and was the product of a brain trust headed by Jumptrap.

I also need to say, I know nothing about Carcanos and I am sorry for the thread drift.

[rattletrap1970]

I don't have a Swede per say. I have a Japanese Arisaka re-chambered for 6.5 x 55. At the time I purchased it 6.5x50 Jap was very hard to find and expensive. The twist is 1 in 8.34 which is almost perfect for the "Cruise Missile". My first trip to the range and wild ass shot at designing a load for the gun proved to be promising. I have every reason to believe that the next trip using SR 4759 and seating a bit longer and getting the speed from mid 1200's to low 1600's will improve already fair groups. I will post another copy (with targets) of my data sheet when I do.

[Boz330]

This thread is drifting to the Swede and that is a different animal than the Carcano. Even in the Carcano you have standard twist barrels and the gain twist barrels, again 2 different critters.
Getting any sort of accuracy from a Carcano, even at slow speeds, with the gain twist is a challenge. I can get good groups, for me, at extremely slow speeds but the holes are oval. I still think shortening the driving bands is the answer. Just don't have the time to prove it right now.

Bob

[bkbville]

I agree - that's what I saw when I cut down several CM's; but it's to be expected. The shorter boolit wouldn't need the more aggressive portion of the gain twist to stabilize. Even if the engraving gets sheared off, the boolit is already spinning sufficient for stability.

I'm using a Verterli in 6.5 carcano with a twist gain identical to the m91 fucile.

I shot successive series of CM's - with 10.4gr Unique they were all stable (i.e. round holes) at 1362fps. with 16.0 gr A2400 they were all unstable (i.e. impact sideways) at 1579fps.

- I shot others but basically the faster they go, the more they seem to get unstable.

I then oven hardened (and aged) some CM's. With the same 16.0gr A2400 11 of 13 were stable, 2 were not and boat-tailed; 1561fps.

- This was positive - I think it indicates it's likely the engraving is being stripped. But I have no hardness measurements for these.

I then tried 17.0gr A2400 using these hardened CM's and they were ALL unstable; 1631fps.

- so maybe they just aren't hard enough to tolerate the gain twist change at higher velocity/pressure?

I tried a lot of 7 "short" cm's - cut to 145 gr. These were not hardened, and were also put on 17.0gr A2400. These were stable, but poorly grouped; 1740fps. (It's possible the poor grouping was that I hacksawed the boolits and they might have had imperfect bases; they were within 0.5gr of each other though.)

I started some testing with H4831sc - thinking that a slower burn rate might be kinder and let the CM's hold on to the rifling longer. At 28.5gr H4831sc I was 1639fps with 5/5 round holes, but at 29.5gr H4831sc I had 3/6 boat tail at 1733.8. These were with hardened CM's.

I'm not sure how many inches of wet phone books I'd need (anyone have experience?) to recover some at these speeds but I want to compare the fired boolits at some point. See if they show signs of being stripped of the engraving.

[Boz330]

Excellent idea. The boolits will probably be deformed but you might be able to see enough of the base to tell if the rifling has stripped.
I tried some straight lino type boolits and they didn't do any better than the WWs. I tried some slower powders but not extensively because initial results sucked. I believe that if the CM had a shorter driving section ( like a 299 30 cal) it might do better in the gain twist.

Bob

[rattletrap1970]

In case you are wondering, I stumbled onto the perfect resizing step for converting .30-06 to 6.5x55 Swedish (and I have to imagine 6.5x50 Jap). I had tried re-sizing .30-06 to 6.5 Swedish.. It does work, but you can wrinkle a lot of brass trying to get there. I happened to have a set of dies for 7mm-08. So, I size the .30-06 down till the shoulder is about .125" from it's final resting place. Then I unscrew my 6.5x55 full length sizer about (5) 1/2 turns from full length. I then bump the brass down in 1/2 turn increments. I burned through a bunch of brass without so much as a wrinkle, pit, dent or anything. Just figured I'd let you know.

[calkar]

Charger, your way of thinking bothers me, just because past members have gone goofy over this subject has nothing to do with me or current members who are working on swede projects. Just like the tv if you dont like it you can change the channel.

[waksupi]

The Cruise Missile was certainly not the first group buy mold on this forum. I believe the BD 45, and the BD .35 molds were long before this.

[rattletrap1970]

Alrighty, I tried out my cruise missiles... They sucked... Hard.
These were fired from a 1-in-8.4 twist 800mm long Japanese Arisaka (Chambered in 6.5X55 Swedish). I used 18.0gr of SR4759, seated the bullet .013 from the lands. Velocities were extremely consistent 1609 to 1670 ft/sec. The bullets were resized to .266 and lubed (rooster lube, no GC). I couldn't hit paper at 25 yards and when I did they sent fully sideways. Leaded the **** out of the last 6 inches of the barrel (well as deep as I could focus down the tube).

Could the lack of a GC have caused this? Or am I just doomed to make these shoot well? They did not lead the barrel at all at 1200 ft/sec and they all stayed in the black on an SR-1 target at 100 yards.

Very amazed at the consistency of the velocity since this was the first fire form of .30-06 shells re-formed to 6.5x55.

[Shooter6br]

In my 6.5 Jap I use the Lee .270 ( Jap is .2680 14 g 4759 no GC Shoots ok ( better than with jacketed) Target 25yrd 2.5 Tasco scope Have to see how 50 yrd work.

[rattletrap1970]

Well with Sierra HPBT match (I forget the weight and load at the moment) my Arisaka will fire the first three rounds touching at 100 yards, then with that soda straw barrel it walks a bit left and then right.

I was actually thinking of re-crowning it and having that Straight Jacket system installed on the barrel. That would take care of a sizable bit of that walking (or so they say).

[Char-Gar]

Charger, your way of thinking bothers me, just because past members have gone goofy over this subject has nothing to do with me or current members who are working on swede projects. Just like the tv if you dont like it you can change the channel.

Calker... All I did was give some history of the bullet and the struggles folks have had with it. You are right, it has nothing to do with you, nor was it intended to do so. I just wanted folks who are struggling with cast bullets in the fast twist 6.5s to know, that the problem has been around for a long time and it can be overcome. The bullet was designed for a single purpose and that was to give good accuracy in the military Swedish Mauser rifles in 6.5X55. When held to a velocity of 1.7K fps or below it does a splendid job at that task. Lee started marketing the bullet to the public and it has been put to uses it was never intended to fulfill. The bullet does not have design flaws. Folks are trying to put it to uses for which it was not designed. Perhaps they will be sucessful and perhaps not. I certainly am rooting for them. I think this information is helpful for folks trying to make the bullet fly straight.

I don't understand how that can set you off. You must have an awfully short fuse.

The bull

[45 2.1]

Calker... All I did was give some history of the bullet and the struggles folks have had with it. You are right, it has nothing to do with you, nor was it intended to do so. I just wanted folks who are struggling with cast bullets in the fast twist 6.5s to know, that the problem has been around for a long time and it can be overcome. The bullet was designed for a single purpose and that was to give good accuracy in the military Swedish Mauser rifles in 6.5X55. When held to a velocity of 1.7K fps or below it does a splendid job at that task. It will above that provided you learn how. Lee started marketing the bullet to the public and it has been put to uses it was never intended to fulfill. Now ain't that the truth, plus a too fat boolit to boot.The bullet does not have design flaws. Folks are trying to put it to uses for which it was not designed. Perhaps they will be sucessful and perhaps not. I certainly am rooting for them. I think this information is helpful for folks trying to make the bullet fly straight.

I don't understand how that can set you off. You must have an awfully short fuse.

The bull

Good post Charles........... a little information to supplement: Oldfeller wanted a hunting boolit......... the reason for the big flat on the nose. He was aware that it hung in feeding as I told him and he acknowledged that as he had the same thing happen, but he said a snappy feed will get it in. Little did he know was the prep involved in the design. He worked with the Swede and I checked it in the Swede, Carcano, M/S and Jap..... all of which have remarkably similar throating. I never told him about the others.

[Boz330]

The reason that I went to the CM was that it was the only over the counter boolit large enough to fit the Carcano. A real testament to Lee's quality control since it is supposed to be .268 and mine drop at .2725.:bigsmyl2: The mold is cheap enough that I won't feel bad about cutting it down till I get something that will work for my purposes. At that point I can probably get a custom MM or something that will work better. It is just a starting point. I'm not trying to turn it into a Photon torpedo I'm just looking for a moderate plinking load.

Bob

[Dutchman]

Gardner's Cache has one of the early single cavity molds for the cruise missile. He is taking very limited orders and has been for quite some time.

I bought a box of 500 of these a couple years ago and have been playing with them off and on. The recent Midsouth d/c Lee mold for the cruise missile is near worthless far as I'm concerned dropping .272" slugs. But these from Gardner's Cache are not so bad.

http://gardnerscache.com/6_5mm_170_fp_g_c.html

http://images32.fotki.com/v1088/photos/2/28344/157842/yr09-vi.jpg

13.8 grs 2400 @ 50 yards. Yes, a little tilting but this is the best accuracy I've gotten so far. Upping the load with 2400 did nothing good. It just opened up and started tumbling. But I'm not too unhappy with this except the bullets weren't from my own mold.

http://images41.fotki.com/v1580/photos/2/28344/157842/65x551701382400ab-vi.jpg


Swede rifling: 1:200mm

Dutch

[Char-Gar]

I bought two of those original Oldfeller SC molds. I use one and have the other put up, just in case.

[Boz330]

Well I finally got around to milling this CM mold down this afternoon. I might get a chance to cast some tonight. It will be interesting to see how it does with a shorter driving band area.

Bob

[Boz330]

Well I got to try out some of the chopped down CMs Saturday. They weigh 137gr and no gas check. The holes are closer to round than the full length CM but not completely. The target backboard is 4'X4' and it is a good thing because it uses it all. This thing is bumfuzzeling the he!! out of me. After chopping down the mold I increased the powder charges from a couple of the better powders with the full length CM. There wasn't a group (pattern) under 18" and some much bigger.[smilie=b:

Next stop is to reduce the charges and see what happens. With the full length CM the slower that it got the better it shot. Loads that shot descent were way under any published load for any 6.5MM. There were never any round holes in the target, but several groups approached 2MOA. I also have never tried any fillers. I have a whole box of kapok, but just never saw anything small enough to even consider it.

Bob

[JeffinNZ]

I had myself convinced the problem with oval holes in my Carcano was the bullet canting as the brass case neck 'gave' on firing. I figured the 1 1/2 driving bands that engaged in the throat would work as a pivot point once the support of the case neck was gone. I took a .270 case and machined the head to Carcano specs then formed it in a Carcano die. I then neck turned the case so there was basically NIL clearance between a loaded round and the chamber neck. Took it to the range and fired it at a 100m target. OVAL HOLE. Theory busted.

[Boz330]

I had myself convinced the problem with oval holes in my Carcano was the bullet canting as the brass case neck 'gave' on firing. I figured the 1 1/2 driving bands that engaged in the throat would work as a pivot point once the support of the case neck was gone. I took a .270 case and machined the head to Carcano specs then formed it in a Carcano die. I then neck turned the case so there was basically NIL clearance between a loaded round and the chamber neck. Took it to the range and fired it at a 100m target. OVAL HOLE. Theory busted.

I've decided that I can live with the oval holes if I can just get it to group. If I have to go to jacketed bullets to get it to group, it is gone. I'm not looking for photon torpedoes, just a descent plinker.

Bob

[JeffinNZ]

I've decided that I can live with the oval holes if I can just get it to group. If I have to go to jacketed bullets to get it to group, it is gone. I'm not looking for photon torpedoes, just a descent plinker.

Bob

I can tell you are very astute individual. I came to the same conclusion. They shoot 2 MOA from my Carcano and tip over wallabies.

[Boz330]

I can tell you are very astute individual. I came to the same conclusion. They shoot 2 MOA from my Carcano and tip over wallabies.

I'm not sure about astute, I think impatient might be a better description. Although age (lots of it) has given me more patience than when I was young.:D

Bob

[bkbville]

Mine shoots about 2moa with Hornady FMJ's - about 140gn IIRC - but this is what keeps me wanting to get the beast to work with boolits.

The Hornady's are .264 - not the .268 "carcano" pills they make.

I've been shooting the CM's "as cast" (.2705) - I've been wondering if sized closer to bore if that would help? I don't have a sizing die for this though.

Boz/Jeff: How close to bore are you sizing these?

Still no luck on recovering these for inspection though - the last few of times I went to the range it was too busy to try such a project (maybe even slightly against the rules). I went yesterday, but the snow was up almost up to my waist.

[Boz330]

I'm shooting mine as cast, about .272 with my alloy. My rifle slugs .269. One thought here that I checked on mine is the boolit dia. after it was seated. The Lee dies take the ID of the case neck down to .262 so if the boolit isn't fairly hard the brass will shrink it. Mine didn't shrink any so that isn't the problem.

Bob

[JeffinNZ]

I size to .269 to match the throat. The bolt takes a small amount of effort to cam down as the bullets are so snug in the throat.

[Russ303]

I tryed some gator checks on my cm but they won't even fit on the bullet what is everyone using for checks?