Eliminating my Lee FCD

[prickett]

I'd like to eliminate the use of my Lee factory crimp die (with a Lee taper crimp die) for my 9mm and .45 ACP's. But, when I take my bullets from the seating stage (prior to the LCD stage) and try them in a case guide they don't fit.

I've seen many folks say that FCD's are simply fixing the symptom. So, how do I fix the problem?

TIA

[gefiltephish]

You still have to taper crimp them. Either purchase non fcd crimp dies or knock the carbide ring out of the fcd's. I did both. First I drove the carbide out of the 9mm die with a punch - not recommended. I replaced the 45 fcd with a Hornady taper crimp. Either solution works well (as long as you don't bugger up the id threads of the fcd).

[DLCTEX]

It sounds as if you need to lower the seating die to remove the flare. Also you don't state what boolits you are using, but you need to get the crimp into the crimp groove. I'm not familiar with the taper crimp die, but it should take care of the problem if adjusted correctly. It is also possible you are crimping too much and bulging the case which the factory crimp die would remove. I use the FCD and find it works well. If there is drag when lowering the ram, it indicates sizing taking place and you should find the cause and correct it. The main criticism is from people who are using very oversize boolits and the boolits are getting sized. The die is working correctly, correcting an out of spec condition. The die should not be criticized for doing what it was designed to do.As long as the round will chamber after knocking the carbide ring out, ok, but if it is oversize you still have to correct the problem the FCD diagnosed.

[KYCaster]

...you still have to correct the problem the FCD diagnosed.


There's the whole thing in a nut shell!! :drinks:

So Prickett, what's the problem you're correcting with the FCD? Why don't your cartridges go into the case gauge? Answer that and the cure should be fairly simple.

Jerry

[mike in co]

if u just seated a boolit in a case, the case should have some bell. you need to not only remove the bell but taper crimp the case a little.

your seated rounds should not fit your case gage....if you did everything right.

so sa has been pointed out, you still need one more die,,,a taper crimp for the 9.
if money is tight, seat them all, then remover the seating stem, and start adjusting the die to provide the proper crimp...you only need about 1 thou in a 9.( most 9mm die sets have a crimp feature in the seater die)

dont go looking for a crimp groove in a 9...maybe have one maybe not.



mike in co

[leftiye]

Just file it in the circular file. Eliminated. Slight roll crimp positioned in lube groove - just behind the front wall of the lube or crimp groove (remember, you're keeping the boolit from being pushed back into the case = high pressures bigtime). Do not crimp it so much that the cartridge cannot headspace on the case mouth. And/or - Use a boolit whose cylindrical section reaches and seats against the barrel's leade when seated in the case this way.

[mike in co]

Just file it in the circular file. Eliminated. Slight roll crimp positioned in lube groove - just behind the front wall of the lube or crimp groove (remember, you're keeping the boolit from being pushed back into the case = high pressures bigtime). Do not crimp it so much that the cartridge cannot headspace on the case mouth. And/or - Use a boolit whose cylindrical section reaches and seats against the barrel's leade when seated in the case this way.

i dont see either of these rounds in need of a holding crimp. all i do is go aprox .001 below case dia for a crimp...ohh and the crimp goes whereever i decided oal is...no lube groove, no crimp groove on either of these two...now 44 mag or 357 mag medium to hot loads...yes in the groove and rolled, not a taper.


mike in co

[Bloodman14]

I don't think you should be using a FCD for 9mm or 45ACP anyway; my Lee Pro-1000 in 45 does not use an FCD, but a taper crimp. I load Lee TL 452-230-1R's all day, and have NEVER had a problem with feeding, firing, extraction, or ejection. Lose the FCD's, and adjust the seating die to a slight taper crimp (it should be able to do that).

[lwknight]

The 9mm case is tapered so the FCD will not squeeze the boolit at all.

There is a roll crimp in the seating die. I suggest using it just enough to close the bell
around the boolit so the case goes into the taper crimping die easier.

Come to think of it, I think my Lee seating dies are taper crimp insted of a true roll crimp.
Not sure.. hmmm..

[gunsablazin]

What harm does it do to use a FCD? I have used one on my Dillon 550 for years for .45 ACP and my ammo shoots fine. Am I missing something?:confused:

[82nd airborne]

i use it on 38 spl just because my seating die is old old old and of mystery brand, it doesnt take the bell out. i didnt have any problems once i got it adjusted. it was kind of a pain to learn though.

[mike in co]

What harm does it do to use a FCD? I have used one on my Dillon 550 for years for .45 ACP and my ammo shoots fine. Am I missing something?:confused:

it probably does no harm, but it is deforming the boolit and the "factory crimp" is more than is required for 45acp(or 9mm). the crimp is more of a semi auto rifle crimp, not a semi auto pistol crimp.

if it works for you and you are happy just do it......

mike in co

[Doby45]

The Lee 9mm standard seating/crimping die is a taper crimp, NOT a roll crimp.

[A J]

Been thru this whole thing with 9mm.

Bottom ring: Make sure your sizing die is all the way down. Lightly lube your cases with Hornady One Shot Case Lube or similar. This smooths out the process of removing the bottom bulge of case.

Top ring (bulge at the base of the bullet): The inside of the 9mm case is almost straight walled for the first half inch. After that the taper increases dramatically. Make sure you're not seating too deep!

Crimp: Of course the bullet won't fit the gauge if it's not crimped because the mouth of the case is still belled after seating. Lightly crimp to remove the bell in your FCD.

Lee Factory Crimp Die: A wonderful tool. Don't let the FCD haters fool you. I size my 9mm bullets at .357. I cast at .358 with beagled molds. Also use FCD for .45acp. and shoot thousands of rounds in both calibers for years.

If you are loading good ammo in the first place the FCD will just crimp your rounds like it's supposed to do. If you have a problem it will show you where the problem is located.

[Lloyd Smale]

what are you sizing your bullets to?

[cwskirmisher]

The 9mm Luger head spaces on the case mouth, so you do not roll crimp a 9mm, only a taper crimp is appropriate, and case length is very important. If case length is too long the slide may not fully lock into battery. Too short and you will get loose primer pockets or possibly head separation. A 9mm FCD should not produce a roll crimp (if made properly), it should taper crimp and will not hurt a thing. I use the Lee FCD with great success and has improved (shrunk) my group size by having a uniform neck tension/start pressure.

[fredj338]

I have loaded for 30+yrs w/o the LFCD. Never had issues w/ my ammo. I did buy a LFCD in 45acp just to see what is what. In my informal group testing, the LFCD DOES negatively affect accuracy of soft plated or lead bullets. For jacketed, little diff. A std TC die is all you really need to make prefect ammo, unless you are trying to deal w/ Glock bulged brass, but even then, I prefer doing that at the sizing stage.

[lwknight]

I've had no complaints or problems with the FCD s either.

[thx997303]

One thing I'm surprised nobody mentioned.

If you are shooting lead BOOLITS it is highly likely that your boolit is intentionally OVERSIZED.

Try the round in your GUN. If it chambers in your gun, Do nothing else.

I tire of case gauges. They are designed to tell you if your cartridge meets SAAMI spec and most guns will chamber a larger round.

[Blammer]

run the seating stem UP and run the seating DIE DOWN until it takes out the "flair" in the case mouth.

should work then, that's my guess.

[MtGun44]

What Blammer said.

Ditch the FCD for boolits, either no need or it can hurt. Solution looking for a problem.

Taper crimp is all you need, but a SEPARATE die. Seat in one, crimp in another!

Bill

[mike in co]

The 9mm Luger head spaces on the case mouth, so you do not roll crimp a 9mm, only a taper crimp is appropriate, and case length is very important. If case length is too long the slide may not fully lock into battery. Too short and you will get loose primer pockets or possibly head separation. A 9mm FCD should not produce a roll crimp (if made properly), it should taper crimp and will not hurt a thing. I use the Lee FCD with great success and has improved (shrunk) my group size by having a uniform neck tension/start pressure.

technically you are correct, in reallity, the extractor will hold the case for ignition.......

loose primer pockets and head seperation in a 9mm ??
i have seen 380s fired in a 9, 9's in a 40 and 40's in a 45....splits, yes....head seperation..no

have you ever looked at the fcd for a 9mm ????

[prickett]

What harm does it do to use a FCD? I have used one on my Dillon 550 for years for .45 ACP and my ammo shoots fine. Am I missing something?:confused:

I'm shooting .358 boolits in my 9mm to avoid leading. But a FCD should be squeezing the boolits down to .356 (if its doing its job). So, I'm wondering if I could get away with a smaller diameter w/o the FCD. I need to pull some boolits from loaded rounds to confirm all that, but FCD's do ensure the cartridge will chamber, so I was interested in learning how to do that w/o the FCD.

[prickett]

what are you sizing your bullets to?

I have 3 9mm's each with a different bore diameter - .355, .356, and .357. So, I size to .358 and use the same boolit in all three (without any leading). I'm thinking I might be able to drop .001 or .002 w/o the FCD since it might be squeezing them down by that much now.

I'm busy loading for a match this weekend, so once done with that, I'll actually pull a boolit to see.

[prickett]

What Blammer said.

Ditch the FCD for boolits, either no need or it can hurt. Solution looking for a problem.

Taper crimp is all you need, but a SEPARATE die. Seat in one, crimp in another!

Bill

Bill, can you explain why the need for a SEPARATE crimp die?

TIA

[Gohon]

I have 3 9mm's each with a different bore diameter - .355, .356, and .357. So, I size to .358 and use the same boolit in all three (without any leading).

The Lee FCD was designed for just such a situation as yours. Three different guns with three different bores or chambers. The FCD has two stages......one which crimps and one which irons out any over sized bullet bulge on the cartridge, bringing it to specs. It does just as it is advertised to do.....give you factory spec cartridges. Most likely your .358 bullets are being reduced to a .356 standard size. Lee makes a regular crimp die for 13 dollars that will not re-size the bullet. The FCD is a excellent crimping device and works very well. Most of those that condemn the FCD are most likely put off because they need over sized bullets and want the excellent ease of the crimping of the lee die and just won't take the time to knock the carbide ring out. Lee will open up the carbide ring to your request for a small fee and will also sell you a FCD without the carbide ring if one calls them. If you don't want to use the FCD or one of Lees regular crimp dies, just order another seating die for you die set and take out the seating stem and use it as a standalone crimp die.

[KYCaster]

Bill, can you explain why the need for a SEPARATE crimp die?

TIA


I'm not Bill, but I can answer your question.

When you seat/crimp with one die, the boolit is being pushed into the case while the case mouth is being reduced in dia. This results in a ring of lead being scraped off the boolit by the case mouth. This ring of lead is often deposited in the chamber and can interfere with chambering subsequent rounds.

On the Lee FCD....if you punch out the carbide ring so you're not sizing the boolit then what you have left is...a taper crimp die. If your gun doesn't chamber .358 boolits then size them smaller with a boolit sizing die.

And one more thing...if you plan to use a sizing die as a taper crimp die...a carbide sizing die does not result in a tapered case. The carbide ring sizes the entire case to the same diameter, so any crimp you may get is EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to case length.

Bottom line is...one size does not fit all. If you have three different bore diameters, you may need to load for each one individually.

Jerry

[Gohon]

Jerry, I think you're wrong about the carbide ring in the FCD. It doesn't size the case the full length because that has already been done with the sizing/depriming die as the first step. What it does do is re-size that portion of the case that may have slightly bulged out during seating of a over sized bullet. Some of my loads never touch the carbide ring and some do, all depending on the bullet diameter that was seated. Also the FCD does put a taper crimp on but like all things if improperly adjusted it can be over done. A proper taper crimp really shouldn't be noticeable with the naked eye but just enough to iron out the flare, but if over set then it will kind of look more like a stab crimp.

I've never had a problem with a ring of lead unless I didn't put a decent flare on the case mouth but I seat and crimp in two steps because when trying to seat and crimp in one operation the OAL often goes to pot as the bullet is often pushed deeper than wanted when crimping. It is not uncommon to also crush a case when seating and crimping in one step.

[prickett]

Lee will open up the carbide ring to your request for a small fee and will also sell you a FCD without the carbide ring if one calls them.

How does a carbide ringless FCD differ from a taper crimp die?

Good to know about custom sized FCD's. That is a great option!

[prickett]

If your gun doesn't chamber .358 boolits then size them smaller with a boolit sizing die.

The .358 size isn't a problem. They work in all three guns. My problem is that the .358 is being squeezed down to a smaller diameter (I suspect - I'll be checking this weekend)



And one more thing...if you plan to use a sizing die as a taper crimp die...a carbide sizing die does not result in a tapered case. The carbide ring sizes the entire case to the same diameter, so any crimp you may get is EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to case length.


Hmmm, that makes sense. I see a shiney band near the base of my 9's where I suspect the carbide ring does its business. If so, that would mean that the rings diameter is larger than the bullet though since the cases taper - widest at the base to narrowest at the mouth. So, since the sizing seems to happen at the wide end, the narrow end wouldn't seem to be affected. Gives me something to test this weekend.

[leftiye]

See "Interesting, Cases not headspacing on the case mouth" By JohnCH in Shooters forum. Headspacing with the boolit into the rifling in auto pistols is a target shooter's technique that is widely recognized and works well. Taper crimping sizes boolits down. And then the brass having more spring-back than lead lets loose of the boolit. I have a whole bunch of Speer 200 grain flying ash trays that have been pushed back into the cases because I didn't crimp them - Catastrophe waiting, and not very long, to happen.

[oldtoolsniper]

When I suspect a load with a cast boolit I just remove the decap pin from my sizing die and run the cartridge back through the die. Nine times out of ten the boolit will drop out in my hand. Brass springs back and lead does not or if it does it is way less then brass. A proper crimp does a proper job, over crimping is going to cause a problem since loose boolits tend to migrate. Whatever tool you use it must be done correctly. Using a $12 die or $100 die makes no difference if you use it incorrectly.

[KYCaster]

Jerry, I think you're wrong about the carbide ring in the FCD. It doesn't size the case the full length because that has already been done with the sizing/depriming die as the first step. I didn't say a FCD full length sizes. You're reading something that isn't there. What it does do is re-size that portion of the case that may have slightly bulged out during seating of a over sized bullet. Some of my loads never touch the carbide ring and some do, all depending on the bullet diameter that was seated. Also the FCD does put a taper crimp on but like all things if improperly adjusted it can be over done. So if you take out the carbide ring like some people advise you have a taper crimp die, just like I said. A proper taper crimp really shouldn't be noticeable with the naked eye but just enough to iron out the flare, but if over set then it will kind of look more like a stab crimp.

I've never had a problem with a ring of lead unless I didn't put a decent flare on the case mouth but I seat and crimp in two steps That's why you don't have the problem. because when trying to seat and crimp in one operation the OAL often goes to pot as the bullet is often pushed deeper than wanted when crimping. It is not uncommon to also crush a case when seating and crimping in one step. Because the case mouth is trying to scrape lead off the boolit.

I stand by what I said.

Jerry

[Gohon]

I didn't say a FCD full length sizes. You're reading something that isn't there.
You said "The carbide ring sizes the entire case to the same diameter". That is not correct, it does not do that. It only sizes that portion that is out of spec from seating a over sized bullet. The rest of the case has already been sized with the sizing die. So I don't think I misread anything at all.
The reason I don't have a problem with a lead ring is not because I seat and crimp in two operations, it is because I use a proper case mouth flare. Even if seating and crimping in two steps that ring of lead can happen if a proper flare is not used.


It is not uncommon to also crush a case when seating and crimping in one step. Because the case mouth is trying to scrape lead off the boolit.
Once again, it is because the seater plug is trying to push the bullet deeper into the case, not because the case mouth wants to scrape lead. This ring of lead which is possible with either method is still smaller than the case diameter and won't usually won't prevent chambering and will usually just blow out ahead of the bullet when firing.

The OP's problem is he wants to use the same size bullet in three different guns and he is concerned that the FCD might be reducing the .358 diameter bullet he uses down to a smaller size. The answer is yes, it is probable doing just that. How much? He'll have to pull and measure a bullet to know that but if all three guns shoot fine and no leading then there is no reason not to continue with the FCD but if on the one gun with the over size bore is leading then the only method is to use a different crimp die for that gun. The bottom line to the OP's question as to why seat and crimp in two steps is better control of the final product.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just pointing out I see it differently and have a different view/opinion of the situation.

[KYCaster]

You said "The carbide ring sizes the entire case to the same diameter". That is not correct, it does not do that. It only sizes that portion that is out of spec from seating a over sized bullet. Immediately before the line you quoted out of context, I wrote, "...a carbide sizing die does not result in a tapered case." I did not say Lee FCD. The Lee FCD is not a "carbide sizing die", it's a crimp die. The rest of the case has already been sized with the sizing die. So I don't think I misread anything at all.
The reason I don't have a problem with a lead ring is not because I seat and crimp in two operations, it is because I use a proper case mouth flare. Even if seating and crimping in two steps that ring of lead can happen if a proper flare is not used.


Once again, it is because the seater plug is trying to push the bullet deeper into the case, not because the case mouth wants to scrape lead. Yes, pushing the bullet deeper and at the same time reducing the diameter of the case mouth, resulting in the ring of lead scraped off the bullet. This ring of lead which is possible with either method is still smaller than the case diameter and won't usually won't prevent chambering and will usually just blow out ahead of the bullet when firing. I wrote "can prevent chambering". Are you saying that it can't prevent chambering?

The OP's problem is he wants to use the same size bullet in three different guns and he is concerned that the FCD might be reducing the .358 diameter bullet he uses down to a smaller size. The answer is yes, it is probable doing just that. How much? He'll have to pull and measure a bullet to know that but if all three guns shoot fine and no leading then there is no reason not to continue with the FCD but if on the one gun with the over size bore is leading then the only method is to use a different crimp die for that gun. So now you're saying that the Lee FCD is not "designed for just such a situation"? The bottom line to the OP's question as to why seat and crimp in two steps is better control of the final product.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just pointing out I see it differently and have a different view/opinion of the situation.So now that you agree that the Lee FCD is not the cure for this particular problem, it seems that we don't have a different view/opinion of the situation.

The only thing I've disagreed with is the notion that the Lee FCD is the cure for every reloading problem you might encounter. You've just been reading something into my posts that isn't there.

Jerry

[dogbert41]

I've been using the FCD by backing out (unscrewing) the carbide ring so that it doesn't do any crimping. Just the act of forcing the brass into the die removes the belled case without unnecessary squeezing of the lead. You can feel it as it goes in, making contact on just the bell. Bullet tension is good, and I have no leading doing it like that. Cartridges chamber well enough to still be reliable. There is a difference when you crank down the carbide ring.
They fit noticeably looser in the chamber when you do that. But that's when you may start to notice leading as well.

[Gohon]

The carbide ring on the FCD is not adjustable. It sits at the mouth of the die and extends about a 1/4 inch upward. The adjustable part at the top of the die is the crimping device. If you're backing out the crimping stem then you are correct in that there is no crimping taking place.