smithy lathe's

[skimmerhead]

has any one had any expereance with there product's? i'm wanting to put a small combination lathe, milling machine in my work shop, any info on this will be appreciated. thank's

skimmerhead :castmine:

[deltaenterprizes]

I have never owned or used one but looking at them they leave a lot to be desired. In reading posts on machining forums some people love them, others feel that they are better than nothing and others think they are utterly useless being neither a good mill or a good lathe.
One of the intents of the design is to save space but at the cost of taking up large amounts of time reconfiguring the machine from lathe mode to mill mode. The rigidity of both leave a lot to be desired and to achieve close tolerances and a good finish that is a necessary component.
The same machines can be bought from Harbor Freight.

Your question is answered in your signature"Cheap things are not good and Good Things Are Not Cheap".
Try reading some posts on "The Home Shop Machinist " forum.

[blikseme300]

My opinion, FWIW, is not to get a combo. I have used a combo before and it was a pain to use. A separate lathe & mill works better. The cost of the basic machine is not the big expense as the additional tooling you need will cost more. For example: my collet set, cutting & boring tools, knurling tool set, tool post, cost way more than my lathe. Same with the milling machine.

Bliksem

[skimmerhead]

doesen't sound like what i want, any suggestions? don't want a big machine 24-36 inch centers somewhere in that range. nothing for production, just hobby. thank's don't know where to find home machine shop forum.

skimmerhead :veryconfu

[deltaenterprizes]

Link: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/

[skimmerhead]

thank you sir! i will start doeing research before buying a machine, i realize my signature is up for interpetaion so i may add to it, my interpation= freedom, and all the people who have paid the ultimate price for us to enjoy the liberty's that our constitution is meant to provide. myself have not served in the military being 4-f with a bad back, but went to new orleans to join the marines, but didn't pass phisical. i wanted to go to nam bad as a lot of my friends went and many did not return. but i'm proud to say my son spent 9 years in the army. retired an e-4 crew chief on a black hawk, and served in desert storm. wow i really got away from the subject here, sorry to ramble on.

skimmerhead :holysheep

[izzyjoe]

i was thinking of getting one myself, and was talking to a few machinist friends of mine,some said depends how much you will use it.others said they were junk, just depends on who you ask. but i think if you don't use it whole lot and take care of it will last a while, but verus the price of buying seperate machines, which could run up to thousands of dollars. and just for a hobby. it would be different if you was going to make a living with them. i'm a machanic by trade and it took me a long time to find out that it's hard make a living with cheap tools, while it can be done. but it is very frustrating. but if it's at home for personal use you can use what ever kind of tools you want to. lol:drinks:

[skimmerhead]

you rite bout that izzy, if it's to have a tool that you can;t do what you want with it then whats the point, don't send a kid to do a mans job.

skimmerhead

[bob208]

my uncle has one thought the world of it. then one day he comes in my shop talking about the lathe he bought so he would not have to tear down the mill. then a little later he comes in talking about the mill he bought now he does not have to teardown the lathe.

so there it is bought the right machines after he got the wrong one.

[Dutchman]

doesen't sound like what i want, any suggestions? don't want a big machine 24-36 inch centers somewhere in that range. nothing for production, just hobby. thank's don't know where to find home machine shop forum.

skimmerhead :veryconfu

This forum is as good as any for this topic.

I can recommend the Birmingham 12x36" lathe without reservations. I bought mine in March 2005. I've been a home machinist since 1979, have a year of tool-machine engineering at the college level so this isn't new to me. I've used all manner of common lathes from Atlas 10" to Clausing 6300, South Bend, LeBlond and my old 1903 Von Wyck 15x60. I paid $2,000 + $300 freight from Henderson, Nevada to northern Indiana. I think they're a little more now.

I made my own 5C handwheel collet closer. The 3 jaw that comes with it is ok and the 4 jaw is better than ok. The lathe is very capable of sub-.001" tolerance if needed. There are weak points. The lowest speed could be a little slower for threading up to a shoulder. There are a couple ways to deal with that, one of which is a smaller motor pulley. Speed selection is fine. Hole through spindle is 1.5" which is very nice to have. I would council against a bed shorter than 36".

http://images45.fotki.com/v1424/photos/2/28344/6717603/sq12-vi.jpg

http://images19.fotki.com/v33/photos/2/28344/474753/m6-vi.jpg

A milling machine is a bit tougher decision. The one in the above photo is an Index Model 40 built in 1942 and used by Douglas Aircraft during WW2 for navy aircraft. I bought it in 1981 for $1,300 from a used machinery dealer in Los Angeles. I've used it 28 years so it must be ok. But it was archaic. So in March 2009 I bought a used Enco 1525 8x36" "baby bridgeport" for $1,700 and had it shipped from Madison, Wisconsin to northern Calif. Got it from another gun collector that I knew so I trusted what he was telling me about it plus he's a machinist by trade.

I have hardly stopped using it since I got it cleaned up and running. It weighs 1,700 pounds to the 1,200 of the Index. No complaints about it. Since it has a 3 phase motor I opted for a rotary converter for about $340 off fleaby. American Rotary. No complaints. Lots of power with a 1.5 hp 3 ph motor. 10 speeds from 100 rpm to 3200 and 3200 is really singing. Fast enough to do some minor precision grinding. This machine has paid for itself 2x now in 1 1/2 yrs.

The Grizzly version of this is single phase and only 5 speeds. Not good. You need that low end 100 rpm speed for milling on occasion.

Both these mills are knee mills. The knee traverses up and down on the dovetailed column.

http://images51.fotki.com/v423/photos/4/28344/7321255/DSCF8867gh-vi.jpg

Bench mills like this one from Grizzly are ok for the home shop but you will bump your head on the ceiling much more frequently due to the limitations.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Mill-Drill/G1006

This is the Grizzly version of my mill. You can see why $1,700 in a used mill was more practical....
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Milling-Machine-w-Power-Feed/G6760

Used mills...

Clausing $2,500. A full size "Bridgeport" type with a 9x42 table. Clausing are very good machines.
http://cgi.ebay.com/5902-CLAUSING-KONDIA-MODEL-FV1-VERTICAL-MILLING-MACHINE-/280505690079?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414f7127df

Used Bridgeport for $2,600.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridgeport-J-Head-Vertical-Milling-Machine-9-x-42-/120571720321?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Mills&hash=item1c12a27281

Index and Wells-Index are very good USA vertical mills. There are some early Index that came after mine, Model 45, 55, 745 that have more features than my ancient Model 40. Wells-Index is still in business in Michigan.
http://cgi.ebay.com/4248-WELLS-INDEX-MODEL-847-RAM-TURRET-VERTICAL-MILL-/280505682433?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414f710a01

Vertical mills are not cheap nor usually inexpensive. That's because they're work horses. They make money. If you enjoy doing this then it's worth going into debt to get these things, IMO. I sold guns to buy my lathe and mill. About $7,000 worth of guns. There is no money better spent.

Though I've spent the last year making scope mounts my experience is in general machine shop meaning all kinds of jobs. I like the challenge of having a wide spectrum of things come my way to do. I'm interested in steam engines, electric vehicles, electronics. I'd love to scratch build an electric motorcycle with a side-car for extra batteries. And I'd like to build a couple single shot firearms from scratch.

A 10x18" wood lathe goes well in the metal working shop.
http://images46.fotki.com/v1493/photos/4/28344/7503119/DSCF8255b-vi.jpg


Dutch

[Hang Fire]

I sold my EMCO Maier Maximat super 11 several years ago, was stupid of me as it was a great quality combo machine I had bought new in 1982.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/img463.jpg

[deltaenterprizes]

That is a big step above a Smithy.

[ANeat]

I had a Smithy, it was Ok but I was glad when it was gone and I got a proper lathe and mill.

I had the 1239 I think it was called.



http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/aneat/Toys/Smithy1.jpg



Replaced it with a Bridgeport, then saved up and got a used 12x36 import lathe

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/aneat/Toys/Bridgeport1.jpg

[skimmerhead]

ok guys i got to go get some alka seltzer! i got lots of room but not a lot of bucks. thanks for sharing the photos, very nice. i'll come across the right one sooner or later.

skimmerhead

[theperfessor]

The small combo machines have all the faults mentioned above. But they do have one benefit. It let's you do something instead of just dreaming about doing something. You're not going to do anything fast, and you may have to reset the machine a lot, but if it's a hobby who cares? If you find out you like doing what you're doing then you can always upgrade to a small lathe and a vertical mill.

While you have one you can teach yourself how to do a lot of creative things. I would compare the little combo machines to a lot of Lee products - they're cheap enough to get a lot of first-timers into the hobby and are perfectly adequate for a lot of people. For those that like it, better, more capable equipment is out there.

If it's all I could afford I'd look for a used one, learn to use it, and save up for better equipment. You can always sell it to somebody later for a down payment on a used Bridgeport without taking too big a hit. Meanwhile you could trim cases, hollow point bullets, make sight bases, cut dovetails, ......

Think about this just as a historical comparison. A gunsmith or machinist of 200 years ago would have been tickled pink to have a modern combo machine, 'cause it would have been way better than what they had available at any price - and look at the quality items they produced. It's more the man than the machine.

Just my opinion.

[skimmerhead]

good opinion! they would have keeled over, iv'e some time on some big machines, during the winter i'd go work at a shipyard, being certified in pipe, plate, aluminun, steel and stainless welding they always had a spot for me. used to weld a lot in the machine shop, on tug boat shafts building up journals to machine down. 2" to 8" shafts and any thing else you can think of. the machinest used to teach me on smaller jobs. so i know enough to get my self in alot of trouble. its been so long since i done that if i tried to make something now and put together it would probably be easier putting socks on an angry rooster. thanks for the opinion.

skimmerhead:veryconfu

[ANeat]

For me the Smithy was not a cheaper option, I think my money would have been better spent originally on something used/better quality.
There was actually very little difference between what I sold the used Smithy for and what I paid for the used Bridgeport.
At the time I needed a better mill and wasnt using the lathe much so loosing the lathe for a few years till I saved up wasnt a problem

I see good used equipment in the local classifieds and on Craigslist that is a bargain.

You can get better equipment without spending more money

[yarro]

Having used a Lathe/mill combo, I would not recommend one. They do neither thing well. I would find a used lathe and mill. My import 9x20 is OK as long as I don't take heavy cuts, but I really want a larger lathe with a bigger spindle thru hole. Using modified a mini-mill right now until I find a real mill. After that I will replace the lathe as well.

-yarro

[baileyhudson]

can't wait to see your projects

[drac0nic]

First off:

1-be VERY patient and start checking Craigslist. You'll see some bargains out there! I've seen nice looking bridgeports for well under $2K. Just have some cash and a truck ready to grab. I got an Atlas 10X36 with change gears and tooling for $300. Deals can be had.
2-What are you using it for? This is perhaps the most important thing not asked here. You may have a great fit size wise with the combo setup or find out its way wrong. IMO if I was doing gun smithing a 36" swing is where I'd want to be. This lets one do rifle barrels between centers effectively among other things. Not sure on the milling side. My advice is having an idea of what you need here before you buy it. Otherwise it's kind of like you asking us about buying a vehicle and how it will suit your uses. I mean, it could be that you have 6 kids and a 20 foot RV you want to haul around and the guy telling you to buy a Camry isn't going to really be giving you good advice.

[country gent]

Several things a good used machine from a private seller can be a plus in a couple ways one the lower price and the tooling you can get in the deal. I have 2 lathes Im setting up currently A 14 x 40 nardinni and a 12 X40 clausing. I bought out a friends shop when he retired. These machines were purchased new by him and spent their life in a 1 man shop. My bridge port is a 9X48 series 1 from same shop. rebuilt just before he bought it. The delta Rockwell surface grinder is a 1944 model. Along with the four machines I made 4 trips for tooling for them. chucks 3 and 4 jaw, collets round square hex standard and metric. mill vises, r-8 collets, insert cutters, some endmill ( mostly bigger ones), a dividing head and tailstock. And other tooling. steady rests and follower rests for both lathes. Draw bars. The nardinni has coolant also. The grinder had several hubs and 12-16 wheels for it. Magnetic chuck, dresser and a few other odds and ends. On top of this the family threw in almost all the stock on the racks gull lengths and cut ends from 1/2"- 3" in 10l and 4140 prehard a little aluminum and some starret gage stock. Close to 3000lbs of stock. Also got the phase converters for the mill and lathe.

A used machine may cost a little more but the extras in tooling and such out weight that.
If this deal hadn't came along for a lathe I would have looked at a grizzly or jet 12 X 40 new. Used a hardringe 10 X 24 ( here barrels can be done easily since the spindle bore is 1 1/2") or one of the many atlas clausing monarch or others out there. As to mill Index South bend Bridgeport acer jet all have some nice machines.

For safety's sake unless you have the needed equipment and skill Hire a crew of riggers or millwrights to load and move your equipment. For an idea the nardinni lathe I bought is 3500lbs dry the clausing lathe is 2500lbs the Bridgeport mill is 2500 with out readouts, vises collet racks. The crew I hired showed up on the given day at 9:00 at my friends, loaded all the equipment most of the tooling and stock. Brought to my garage set it very close to where I wanted it. By 1:20 they were picking up their toys. All for $800.00 and 3 pizzas LOL. This saved a lot of struggling cussinng smashed toes or gingers or worse. And best of all no damage to the machines or tooling.
Moving equipment with pinch bars come alongs and rollers can be done and works. Disassembling machines to get into pieces that can be handled to move and carried works. Its a lot of work and time added.

[samari46]

My first lathe is a 6"x20" craftsman metal working lathe. Used to shop at a lot of used machine shop suppliers for tool bits, drills, small endmills, and one shop had a bunch of used and new parts for my lathe. Guy gave me a huge break on the price and did not hesitate to buy them. Looking at the catalog he indeed gave me a generous deal. About 4 years back finally got a bigger lathe a Jet 13x40 gearhead lathe. While it did come with the basic setup no tooling. And now living in a different state some of the tool bits were big enough to use on the bigger lathe. So ground them up and then stoned them and they work. Over the years have amassed a decent tooling setup for the jet. Funny story, before I got the Jet looked around locally for a lathe. I actually found one on the side of an off road so looked it over. Rusty, wheels were frozen, wires looked like they were ripped out of the control box and stuck in the grass. Found a local machine shop and they were the ones that had it for sale. Guy wanted 5K no tooling and only a 3 jaw chuck. Thanked him and left. Frank

[jmorris]

I started to write a reply then noticed the thread was almost a decade old and the OP hasn’t been here in two years...

[MrWolf]

I appreciate all the information. Some of us dream of getting one and need the information.

[country gent]

The do all hobby lathe / mill combos are somewhat of a pain as they are seldom set up for what you want to do at a given time. Most are under powered. ( my little harbor freight 7X12? wont run a 1/4" tap under power but stalls out) Better would be a small older used lathe like an atlas Sheldon monarch hardringe clausing and a milling attachment for it. These are a little harder to set up and use in that its more horizontal machine and sometimes harder to see what is being done.
Dedicated machines make life much easier and allow for more to be done easier. There's a reason shops have lathes mills grinders shapers and other tools. A lot even have various sizes of lathes and mills to depending on work.( a day pushing the tail stock on a big lathe doing small work is a long day) Same with the carriage and tooling. A big mill doing little work is also more tiring than needed. A bridgeports R8 collet weighs less than a pound a NM50 tool holder is close to 5lbs for the same tool size. Another issue is the bigger machines don't always have the spindle speeds for the smaller cutters.

[oldred]

I started to write a reply then noticed the thread was almost a decade old and the OP hasn’t been here in two years...

Yep it looks as if a new guy (only one post) dug up this almost 10 year old thread and replied as if it was yesterday, he probably didn't notice the date. In any case the new replies are helpful info in case someone has been wondering about the topic but as you so correctly pointed out the OP has been AWOL for a couple of years now.

Not a thing wrong with new replies to an old post but it might make any such replies a bit more relevant and helpful if the person posting a reply is aware that the OP is apparently gone and the question was asked 10 years ago. Still there was some good info posted so I suppose it wasn't a waste.

[big bore 99]

I was a tool and die maker for 49 yrs and had my own shop for 25. In my opinion, any machine that claims to do everything, usually does nothing well. I've had bridgeports and lathes for many years. I would suggest getting a lathe first and make sure you get all the tooling with it. That means a 3 and 4 jaw independent chucks and a face plate. With a little know-how you can do much with it.

[samari46]

Most of the small bench top lathes and milling machines all come with the round central post which is usually a royal PITA to align and keep it that way. Get the ones with the square central post makes life a lot easier. Plus that setup is more rigid than the round post. Friend calls me over one night to show me his new milling machine. Sure enough a round post. Told me he had to keep adjusting the different setups to get repeatabiliy, 6 months later a new milling machine had shown up and wonders a square post one. Happy as a clam.Frank

[country gent]

Bridge port never claimed their mills were the most solid but did claim they were universal. with some thought and work almost any job can be done on them. But heavy machining or roughing will push the heads out of tram. In a lot of jobs we roughed them in the checked head for square tram and then finished. Some lathes had this issue with tailstocks that would shift under force or vibration. Those big old heavy Cincinnati and Milwaukee mills were a dream to run and they were solid and could rough with no problem.

[Drm50]

I have a buddy who just went into a rest home. He bought a Smitty about 10yrs ago when he retired. Both us had connections for tooling. We amassed a ton of stuff. I saw no problem with the lathe mode other than its to small. We made a lot of parts with it. I will say it's a major PIA to go to mill mode. Neither one of us are master machinist but we got the job done. We made runs of firing pins and other turned type gun parts. It would be nice to have a small mill and a good lathe but not practical for a lot of people. Smitty it is what it is but its a lot
better than nothing.

[Buckshot]

..............I had the space, but did NOT have the money. I also had the burning desire. I put together enough cash to buy a Harbor Freight combo machine:

http://www.fototime.com/439921C8BDBC6A2/standard.jpg

They haven't sold this thing in years. I was tickled to death to get it, and welded up a table for it you could have set a Cat dozer on. I made quite a few things with it, and it was a lot better then a hacksaw and a file, lemme tell ya. It also taught me a LOT.

http://www.fototime.com/850688703938AEA/standard.jpg

The above is one of the first 'Real' things I made using the combo machine. It's a cocking handle for an old Winchester 22RF semi-auto rifle. Original busted one on the right. If a combo machine is all you can afford, and you're short of space then a 'Name' combination machine (With a warranty and a guarantee) will suffice for 'One Off' things.

I was eventually able to buy a well tooled recent model Logan 11" lathe. Actually made by Powermatic in the 80's after Logan went out of business. Some years after that I was fortunate to be able to purchase a new ENCO (Chinese) 9x42 Bridgeport type knee mill. From then on, life was pretty much bliss. Ahem :-) But then you need a rotary table and other items of tooling :-)

The main thing is, do not look down your nose at whatever you can afford to get yourself making stuff.

.................Buckshot

[Ed K]

I have better machines now but I started with a beat up South Bend with worn ways. It might be frustrating at times but working around the problem inherent in a machine can be done and makes you think!

[leebuilder]

Got a Smthy 1220 Ltd about 15 years ago. I like it, it gives me independence. I've made enough to buy a least three more doing odd jobs. It has faults but made me a better machinist, get er done type of thing. I'd like to go bigger but three phase and floor space are my only obstacles. Some day.
Be well

[oldred]

but three phase and floor space are my only obstacles.

We see a lot of this, the three phase part, and while floor space may remain a problem a three phase motor is a plus NOT an obstacle!

All of my machines are three phase, including my 12" pedestal grinder, and I don't have three phase power nor do I want it, with today's neat electronic gizmos those three phase motors can be taught all sorts of new tricks. You don't need three phase power (nor a bulky old style phase converter) all you need is a small VFD controller (variable frequency driver) and your single speed one direction three phase motor will magically become smoothly variable speed with instant reverse and dynamic braking to boot! My old style J-head BridgePort can easily do things it never dreamed of in an earlier life and can run at all the usable speeds it could not before that vfd was added.

Space may be a problem but don't let a three phase machine hinder you at all!

[drac0nic]

We see a lot of this, the three phase part, and while floor space may remain a problem a three phase motor is a plus NOT an obstacle!

All of my machines are three phase, including my 12" pedestal grinder, and I don't have three phase power nor do I want it, with today's neat electronic gizmos those three phase motors can be taught all sorts of new tricks. You don't need three phase power (nor a bulky old style phase converter) all you need is a small VFD controller (variable frequency driver) and your single speed one direction three phase motor will magically become smoothly variable speed with instant reverse and dynamic braking to boot! My old style J-head BridgePort can easily do things it never dreamed of in an earlier life and can run at all the usable speeds it could not before that vfd was added.

Space may be a problem but don't let a three phase machine hinder you at all!

You've nailed it why I want to convert my little Atlas to 3phase. It's only half hp but I think the tricks I could do with a VFD would make it into a different machine than it is. Belt changes would be minimal for instance and would likely be a "low vs high" sort of thing then the VFD would do the rest of the speed control.

[country gent]

On your atlas a dc motor from a treadmill and the speed controller will five you variable speed control and reverse. They can be found in the trash or almost next to nothing at yard sales. Most of them run 1 1/2-3 hp so even with the lose if power slowing down you should be fine