Browning High Power 9x19 mm >>> 40 S&W - to buy, or not to buy? That is the question.

[Naphtali]

Excluding a Colt Series 80 stainless Officer's Model 45 ACP I owned many years ago, I have owned no centerfire semiautomatic pistols. I have an opportunity to buy a friend's Browning High Power 9x19 mm. What is the procedure to create a Browning High Power 9x19 mm, manufactured circa 2000, to 40 S&W - that is, to be able to freely convert a 9x19 mm receiver to 40 S&W then back to 9x19 mm whenever I want to?

- Are these parts available from Browning without having them be shipped to a local gunsmith or gun shop?

- What are parts necessary for conversion?

- Are 19x19 mm magazines satisfactory for 40 S&W, and vice versa?

- In the universe of magazines for High Powers, which are among the most reliable, the most durable? Does this hold for 9x19 mm AND 40 S&W magazines?

- What gunsmiths specialize in working on these pistols?
***
Regarding ammunition:
1. What are several 9x19 mm factory ammunitions that combine penetration controlled expansion most efficiently?

2. Among those ammunitions identified in #1, which bullets [used] are also available for reloading?

3. What are several 40 S&W factory ammunitions that combine penetration controlled expansion most efficiently?

4. Among those ammunitions identified in #3, which bullets [used] are also available for reloading?
***
To reiterate, I know about 45 Colt, 475 Linebaugh, and 480 Ruger revolvers. I know close to zip about semiautomatics. Is [this] High Power, with its non-M1911 extractor (I think they used to have extractors of the same design as M1911s) a reliable machine, particularly with properly made reloaded ammunition?

Does the conversion that began this query make sense - that is, are "better" 40 S&W ammunitions significantly superior to "better" 9x19 mm ammunitions for self defense and/or duty use?

If there are questions I should have asked, but did not, please respond as though I asked.

[HeavyMetal]

First when "Browning" decided to offer a Hi Power in 40 S&W they made it in a slightly larger variation of the HP design. So I don't think you can just swap a slide/ barrel and get a 40 S&W Hi Power.

The extractor on the HP is fine they usually cycle with any reasonable book load but they come wih a mag safety that usually make the triggers terrible particularly when compared t a 1911 platform.

Now if your bud's HP is in good shape then, for me at least, price would be the deciding factor.

My opinion on 9mm pistols is simple: Loading for one is for experienced reloaders begginers beware!

I won't ask what your friend is asking for it, what I will tell you is that a CZ 75 / 85 is every bit as comfortable in the hand, will have a much better trigger out of the box , the CZ will most likely shoot better and the 85 is set up correctly if your a lefty.

So here's how I would judge the price of a HI Power, I would check the pricing on the CZ guns in and around the area where I lived and on Gun Broker. Then do the same with the Hi Power.

For me to purchase another Hi Power, I've had two, I would have to get it for less than a new CZ 75/85.

Some will take offense at my statement but the truth is the only thing the HP had going for it during my IPSC days was mag capacity.

Today everybody offers a Hi Cap 9mm of some type and the HP is a dinosaur in the market place. There are better 9mm hi cap guns out there and many are chambered for the 40 S&W so spend your money buying what you want the first time.

As to the 40 being "Better" than the 9mm? I don't think so at least not with the 175 180 and 200 grain loads most people want to shoot in them.

Same with the 9mm way to many people think a 147 grain bullet is the load of choice in this caliber.

For the 40 nothing heavier than 150 grain and I prefer 140 / 145. These can be gotten into the 1300 FPS range. MY theory here is the 357 125 grain load was supposed to be THE proven manstopper for years a 140 at 1300 should do the same thing and have more caliber to boot!

9mm should never exceed 125 grains and never be lighter than 115 for self defense.

With the right powder I can get a 125 into the 1200's with a 4 inch barrel in a good 9mm.

Buy what you feel comfortable with but don't buy the Hi power with the intent of makeing into a 40 it doesn't work that way.

[Artful]

Well, I don't know much about converting HP P-35 to 40 S&W - but I'll tell you what I know about conversion in general.

1911A1 conversion require different magazine and entire top end - you have to change the geometery of the Ejector to get function correctly but you can have one Ejector work with 30 luger, 9x19, 38 super, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. Conversion in field is simple - field strip and reassemble with new parts - done.

CZ-52 - swap between 7.62x25 & 9x19 - just swap barrel and recoil sping - done

Tokerov - swap barrel (recoil spring if you changed to higher power to control 7.62x25)

Beretta 92FS - swap top end and magazine - done converted from 9x19 to 40 S&W

My best clue as to what swaps is look at expoded views and parts number lists - if the frame and all the lower parts stay the same it's not hard just expensive - that's the other part you may pay as much for the complete upper as you would for an entire weapon on something like this.

As far as ammo goes, they change it all the time - you have to keep on top of it

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_151_25/ai_70380696/

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/45911-best-defense-ammo-40-sw.html

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm_hi_power_ammo_selection.htm

But if you don't want to read thru all the links here something I found useful

This is from Dr. Gary Roberts, one of the most prominent and well respected ballisticians in the country.

Note the summation at the end (keys).



The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP (53619)
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP (53961)
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP (53966)
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, etc…)

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers--pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits your likely engagement scenarios. Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

The keys are:

Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice

Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system

Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance

[Piedmont]

The .40 HP doesn't use the same slide as the 9mm. You would have to have a whole new top half. A gun made in 2000 will have the stronger cast frame which is what you would need.
The ejector might need to be changed and probably the magazine.

Sure, the .40 is more powerful. Is it worth it? Only you can decide.

A few years back I thought I wanted a .357 Sig autoloader. I fired some 124 gr. plus P loads from my Browning and a Kahr and decided that was plenty.

The .40 HP is 36 ounces, compared to 32 in 9mm. The handling is supposed to be different too, but I have never handled the .40.

Something I hardly ever see mentioned, but I think should be, is that the forged frame HPs (the ones before the ambidextrous safeties and big sights) have a different grip frame configuration. They are rounder and feel much better to my hand.

You would be ahead financially if you can get this pistol cheaply to turn around and sell it and buy a .40 if that is what you want.

[wiljen]

If I were wanting a switch barrel 40/9 Browning HP, I'd start with the larger 40 S&W frame gun and have a 9mm barrel and slide fitted for it. I think if it were possible to build a good 40 on the 9 frame, Browning would have done that instead of sizing up the frame when they built their first 40s.

[Piedmont]

Wiljen, He already has the "larger frame". When Browning went with the .40 they beefed up all their frames. They also had to use a larger, heavier slide for the .40. It is only the older nines that won't handle the forty. If the frame has the lines on the bottom of the mag well it is the stronger, cast frame.

[GBertolet]

The newer BHP frames are cast, as mentioned previously. Browning had to beef up the frame for the 40 cal conversion. It was deceided for ecconomic reasons to just make the beefier frame and use it for both. As a shooter, the cast frames are stronger than the earlier type forged. Better for heavier loads in the 40 and 9mm. The forged frames are slimmer and trimmer, and are adequate for the 9mm, using standard pressure loads. The 40 cal BHP has three locking lugs on the barrel instead of the 9mm two lugs.

[wiljen]

I hadnt realized they had gone to using only the larger frame. Now I'm glad I got mine before that as the smaller frame feels better in my hands.

[HeavyMetal]

I wasn't aware they had gone to the "bigger" frame either.

Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it??

Col. Cooper once said if he had to carry a full sized gun why not carry it in a full size caliber?

This was in reference to all the 9mm "wonder guns" that flocked into the country during the early 80's!

Don't get me wrong I like the 9mm but I also agree that if I have to pack a 1911 sized gun I'm just gonna pack a 1911!

[GBertolet]

By beefier, I didn't mean grossly larger, just slightly in a critical areas. The cast frames have a thicker front strap, with a different curvature, giving a slightly different feel. Here are two websites dedicated to the BHP, run by Stephen Camp, who is an author of several BHP books and an authority on the BHP. One book by him all BHP fans should have is " The Shooters Guide To The Browning Hi Power". It's 94 pages, loose leaf and costs $19.95. It's well worth it. It will be listed among his other books on both websites. www.hipowersandhandguns.com and the other is www.hipowers-handguns.blogspot.com/2008/06/9mm-hi-power-longevity-or-making-it.html

[Geraldo]

I'll offer my opinion based on owning both 9mm and .40 BHP. In 9mm Mec-Gar magazines are completely reliable, and you can get a 15 round flush fitting mag, which is five more rounds than a factory .40 mag. I believe Cylinder and Slide was doing some work on 20 round 9mm mags to make 16 round .40 mags, which required modification to the feed lips. In HK P7s, .40 mags will work (not well, but they will work most of the time) loaded with 9mm. The reverse is not true.

The .40 BHP was one of my few tries with the caliber. In the end, I never found the .40 to be useful to me. The ammo is more expensive and the only noticable difference on either end of the shot is the recoil. To me the choice of single action autos comes down to 1911 in .45 with nine rounds, or 9mm BHP with a 16 round Mec-Gar and 20 round spare. A .40 with 11 rounds doesn't do anything either of the others can't.

[Storydude]

I have the answer.

FEG 40 Hi-power.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Years ago I got a Springfield P9 in 40. What a fine shooting iron !
That is what I used to transition my 2 boys from 9mm. It is a very reliable weapon and not finiky at all with loads. Shoots just about everything into the same clusters. All the GOOD HP clones are the same in that.. reliable accurate and easy to shoot.
I am sort of partial to the 180 grain size. Why shoot a bigger bore and tiny boolits?
Personally I would not compare the 40 to a 357. 9mm=357 But .40 is a big step in the right direction. Talk to soilders that had to use a 9mm to defend themselves and so far not many have said to me "The 9mm is awsome". Wonder why many police opt for the 40 or larger ?
Bigger holes are always better ! Our Army forgot the leasons learned form 1890-1910... .36 boolits are minimal... Angry Preditors are dangerous and need a good wallop.
I also have a Glock 40 and would rate it =. But IF I ever have to choose... I will stake my future on a .45 every time. Revolver or auto loader... makes no difference to me. I wish I could carry one down here but I am restricted to a .36 bore.
Mike in Peru

[klcarroll]

I carried a Browning Hi Power in 9mm for many years.

I never experienced a "Fail to Feed".

I never experienced a "Fail to Eject".

Like all John Browning designs, the basic design engineering was brilliant.

I also had a VERY clear understanding of both the strong and weak points of the 9mm round: .....Consequently, I was well satisfied with the service that pistol provided.

In the time that I carried that pistol, I had the opportunity to examine many, many "custom" handguns that were all suposed to be superior to my "Plain Jane" P-35: .....But there always seemed to be a doubt regarding basic reliability.

.....And such is the nature of "Hot Rods"! Once all the custom modifications are made, the only way to confirm reliability is EXTENSIVE field testing: .......Something most end-users do not have the time or resources to do properly.

Bottom Line: .......If the purpose of this handgun is going to be "keeping your butt intact", ......then buy a proven design in a caliber that fits your needs: ........Don't try to build a "One-Off Hot Rod"!!!!!

You will probably spend less money in the long run, ....and you will certainly sleep better!

Kent

[Tom-ADC]

I bought my Hi Power maybe 20 years or more ago, for a 9mm I don't think they come much better, it points well and will handle any factory ammo made including +P+ which if run thru mine. But I did find out even +P+ 9mm won't take a bowling pin off the table on a regular basis, but then my 1911 A1 does that just fine.

[winelover]

[QUOTE=klcarroll;945138]I carried a Browning Hi Power in 9mm for many years.

I never experienced a "Fail to Feed".

Obvisouly you never tried Corbon's (+P) 115 gr JHP in yours. At one time it was considerd the most effective 9mm load available. It will not feed in my unaltered Belgium HP. The round is ridiculously short ( 1.025") compared to Winchester's 115 gr JHP (1.083") and Hornady's 115 gr Critical Defense Load (also 1.083"). I also have no problems with Speer's Lawman 125 gr JSP at 1.090" OAL, Golddots at 1.126" or Remington 124 gr Golden Sabers at 1.029" OAL. I load RCBS's 125 gr round nose and gas checked boolet @ 1.10" OAL.

Winelover:drinks:

[klcarroll]

Obvisouly you never tried Corbon's (+P) 115 gr JHP in yours.


Nope! ....I sure didn't! (....And I obviously didn't miss a thing!)


Kent

[johnlaw484]

I guess my question would be; why fool with either one, unless you wanted trading material?
Just go ahead and get yourself a 1911, you'll problay end up with one anyway.

[mtgrs737]

Years ago you could get a 41 action express barrel and install it in your HP. The 41AE was a forty cal. that had a case rim the same as the 9mm and used the same mag so all you needed was the barrel and maybe a more powerful recoil spring. The cartridge never really caught on all that well and now they are somewhat scarce. If I wanted a 40 I would just buy a 40 and leave the 9mm as it was designed to be, which it does quite well IMHO.