lead bullets coated with polymer paint

[Whizzer]

Nice report there, Ausglock. I'm anxious to see how they shoot in your 9mm especially...and the condition of your bore afterwards.

I don't own a 38 super, but I feel like I kinda walk a tightrope with my Kahr PM9...getting enough "juice" to reliably cycle 125 grainers, and not so much that I'm leading. (With 45/45/10 Recluse lube.) My best wheel weight load for the Kahr has been an odd 163 grain flattened round nose from an old Cramer over about 2.9 grains of Bullseye. I don't have a chrono, but they cycle and leading is light with LLA and Recluse Lube. I'm SURE the velocity is low and so is the Point Of Impact. The Kahr is my everyday carry piece, and if I *KNEW* for sure that Hi-Tek coating would make it shoot PB (practice rounds only) without leading and acceptable accuracy, I'd be reaching for my wallet.

Stan

P.S. Another question is with collecting and remelting of these coated pills (which I do regularly in my 5 gallon rubber mulch traps). Do they melt OK? Is there a stench or additional health hazard? I should have done a forum search for that one, but I didn't.

[Ausglock]

G'day Stan.

I run a G17 in 9mm and my pet load is a 125gr coated pill over 4.4gr W231. When fireing these coated pills, I regularly fire 2 to 3000 before pulling a bore snake through the barrel. the only fouling if from the powder. None, Zero, Nada from the coated pills.

When you re-melt the coated pills, the coating just floats on top of the melt like crumpled tissue paper. you just scrape it off like you do with the dross

[abqcaster]

That's very helpful info, Trevor. Thanks!

[Whizzer]

G'day Stan.

I run a G17 in 9mm and my pet load is a 125gr coated pill over 4.4gr W231. When fireing these coated pills, I regularly fire 2 to 3000 before pulling a bore snake through the barrel. the only fouling if from the powder. None, Zero, Nada from the coated pills.

When you re-melt the coated pills, the coating just floats on top of the melt like crumpled tissue paper. you just scrape it off like you do with the dross

Trevor, Did you coat and cure these yourself, using a method similar to the one outlined on the 2 part youtube video, WITH HiTek's chemicals?
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VevKJgHseWc and
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU7PbbtbAtE

Sorry to sound like an attorney. (I've been watching a live murder trial with one eye, where a cop in Kansas is on trial for killing his wife and setting fire to the house to burn the evidence. I happen to know BOTH the cop AND his deceased wife, so I'm WAAAAY interested...)

It's just that your post is the kind of thing I've been looking for. And I really like the sound of 2000+ rounds through a polygonal (I assumed you are using a Glock barrel?) without leading or anything other than powder residue.

And what about your accuracy? And Point Of Aim?

Stan

[prickett]

G'day All.
Well.
Here is my first go at coating with HI-TEK's coating.



Ausglock,
Be careful mixing your chemicals in the coke bottle (assuming its a plastic one). I mixed up a batch of "Piglet coat" in a plastic peanut container and on the third coat, the acetone ate through the corners. I now have a spotted floor :-(

[crrrock]

Hi Trev,
is this Hi-Tek a member, or a process?
I'm waiting on a NOE 223 mold and I'll be looking for a lube coating, so I'd like to read up/follow up on this.
Thanks
Mike
shooting.com.au

[kweidner]

While waiting on some HT from Donnie, I experimented with the pc thing. Let me say that the acetone method I just did not like. Not near as smooth as Donnie's boolits with HT. They were rough and uneven like some pictures on this thread. Another interesting is even after letting it flash off and curing for 20 minutes at 395f, putting back in acetone would take some off. This is what was causing roughness.
I have pc gun too. Now those do look incredible and have had success but it is not really feasible unless I'm doing hollow points in low volume.
I have some black on order with Donnie. I will just pay the price as it is just a better looking result that shoots like a dream. I will continue to play with PC on my hollow points but for 9mm 40 and 45 target round, I will put my trust into a product that has been around over a decade in AU. Just my humble opinion. There have been some naysayers latley very few have tried all three methods. Not trying to stir the pot. It is what it is. Just thought I would give my opinion of all three methods.

[piglet]

Were You using Epoxy or Polyester PC?
Epoxy should be much tougher.

I had similar problems in the beginning, got rough bullets.
The reason was too thick mixture, too much mixture in the bucket and not enough layers.

Then I started to use very thin mixture, bullets first in the bucket, then shaking and at the same time very little mixture so that the bullets get very little color. And then dry and bake after each layer.
One or two layers do not work.
Use at least three very thin layers.
First after the third layer the bullets should have uniform color.

Naturally all PC:s are not the same either.
My Epoxy-PC, after baking, does not dissolve in acetone.

I have been very happy with the results, after I learned how to. But it took some experimenting.

Check the pictures on page 49, Skip62 has succeeded OK.

[Ausglock]

G'day Stan.
I fire the commercial coated pills in my Glock factory barrels as well as Stormlake and my Kimber 1911 38 Super.

I'm loading my coated pills tomorrow to fire on Sunday.

I'll be running 38 Super, 45 ACP, 40 SW, and 357Sig at full power loadings. 100 of each. If I can, I'll get photos of the barrels before and after firing.
This HI-TEK coating is the duck's guts. So easy and a bloody fantastic product.

Was talking to HI-TEK today and it looks like I'm using too much product to coat. So I'm thinning the mix with 25% more Acetone.

Coating again tomorrow.
This is very addictive.....
Thanks.

[Skip62]

the HI-TEK stuff does work great, but here in the States there's only 1 source, and it's had availability problems, and not just recently. I don't like having all my eggs in 1 basket. I don't have all money or guns or data in one place. Got to have backups. So here I am grateful for guys like piglet, and others that have figured this stuff out.

piglets correct, acetone doesn't wipe off any of my HF PC after it's cured, and I cure between coats. The procedure for all 3 is same, except the PC needs 1 extra coat. Not a big deal.

[SpotHound]

Ausglock, is acetone from Bunnings pure enough? Happy with the sunbeam oven?

[xyankeeworkshop]

I'll be giving Piglet Coating a whirl this weekend to see if it beats jigging up trays of boolits and leaving PC overspray all over the garage.

I'm squared away on the mix ratio with the acetone, but what's the consensus on baking times and temps for all three coats?

[Ausglock]

G'day. I got the acetone from "the paint place".
The sunbeam oven is a BT7000.
works bloody great.

[olaf455]

Different powder coats will have different temperatures they recommend, mine recommends 10 minutes at 375 Fahrenheit.
That is what I used and it worked quite well in a convection style toaster oven.

[xyankeeworkshop]

I've been baking the Harbor Freight PC ("traditionally sprayed") for 20 mins at 400 deg F. My understanding is that the acetone/PC method will be much shorter and cooler than that between coats.

[Skip62]

I'm not sure about piglet, but I'm curing between coats completely. So with the HF PC, it's 20 minutes at 400. I "think" if you don't cure completely the next coat of acetone will screw up the first coat.

[TheDoctor]

Got some HF PC, black and red, just need to find someplace to get a friggin toaster oven! Cheap me, don't want to spend the cash for a new one just for an experiment, but none of the thrift stores, or garage sales around here seem to have any. Pawn shops.....might as well go buy a new one.

[xacex]

Got some HF PC, black and red, just need to find someplace to get a friggin toaster oven! Cheap me, don't want to spend the cash for a new one just for an experiment, but none of the thrift stores, or garage sales around here seem to have any. Pawn shops.....might as well go buy a new one.

It was a few weeks of looking at my local thrift shop before I was able to snag one. Your patience will be rewarded.

[prickett]

Got some HF PC, black and red, just need to find someplace to get a friggin toaster oven! Cheap me, don't want to spend the cash for a new one just for an experiment, but none of the thrift stores, or garage sales around here seem to have any. Pawn shops.....might as well go buy a new one.

I picked one up new at Walmart for $39. Convection and room for two trays (only comes with one, though)

[prickett]

I'll be giving Piglet Coating a whirl this weekend to see if it beats jigging up trays of boolits and leaving PC overspray all over the garage.

I'm squared away on the mix ratio with the acetone, but what's the consensus on baking times and temps for all three coats?

I did 400F for 15 minutes (HF paint using Piglet Coating). Turned out pretty nice.

[Skip62]

I did 400F for 15 minutes (HF paint using Piglet Coating). Turned out pretty nice.

Nice, got pictures?

[abqcaster]

I got a free toaster oven from the freecycle network here. Might wanna look one up in your area.

[prickett]

Nice, got pictures?

Some bare lead and some Piglet Coated

72169

Wow, my phone camera doesn't really show much of anything, does it.

[piglet]

I'm not sure about piglet, but I'm curing between coats completely. So with the HF PC, it's 20 minutes at 400. I "think" if you don't cure completely the next coat of acetone will screw up the first coat.
Exactly. Bake after each coat. I am using 10 minutes in 200 Celsius.

[Whizzer]

Some bare lead and some Piglet Coated

72169

Wow, my phone camera doesn't really show much of anything, does it.


Not THAT bad. Looks like Lee 125 grain Trucated Cones, loaded in 9 X 19. Pretty close?

And they appear pretty evenly coated, with more of a "mat" finish than glossy.

Be sure to report back after a trip to the range.

Stan

[johntkd]

on the blue ones in an earlier post they look sprayed to me.

[prickett]

Not THAT bad. Looks like Lee 125 grain Trucated Cones, loaded in 9 X 19. Pretty close?

And they appear pretty evenly coated, with more of a "mat" finish than glossy.

Be sure to report back after a trip to the range.

Stan

You are correct on everything you thought. I'm fairly pleased with my first attempt. Certainly will report back with a range report. This week I'm trying 100 wheel weight boolits. Next week, I hope to test soft lead. If Piglet Coat works with soft lead I'll be very happy.

[prickett]

Hey Piglet,

First, thanks for the great liquid coating method!

Second, I've finished my first coat and I think it turned out ok. I'm wondering about your technique, though. You say the first coat is very thin. How about the 2nd and 3rd coats? Are they the same as the first? Next time you coat, perhaps you could snap a photo of your three mixes (assuming they aren't all the same) that you could post for us.

Thanks!

[piglet]

Hey Piglet,

First, thanks for the great liquid coating method!

Second, I've finished my first coat and I think it turned out ok. I'm wondering about your technique, though. You say the first coat is very thin. How about the 2nd and 3rd coats? Are they the same as the first? Next time you coat, perhaps you could snap a photo of your three mixes (assuming they aren't all the same) that you could post for us.

Thanks!

Thanks for trying. Actually anybody who has thinned paint could have "invented" this mixture, so I do not think it was a big achievement.

All coats are very thin. I am using the same very thin mix for every coat and I store it in a glass jar.
The first coat should not look like much anything, very little color.
The second coat gives a little color.
The third coat gives enough color. Depending on the PC also.
If not, add a fourth coat.
Main thing is to keep the total thin. And remember to bake after each coat.

This PC/Acetone is nice because You do not need any separate hardener.

I might try someday even Phenolic resin, I have found a maybe suitable product and it comes with a hardener that works in about 150-200 degrees Celsius.

The company that makes this Epoxy-PC I am using, has many other PC:s too.
Even some with Silicone base and Polyurethane. This Polyurethane PC stretches a lot more than Epoxy and has much higher impact resistance too.

So maybe someday we will find a PC that works beautifully with rifle velocities too.
I am certain that such a PC exists somewhere.

[Skip62]

Some bare lead and some Piglet Coated

72169

Wow, my phone camera doesn't really show much of anything, does it.

Look Great! ! ! Keep it up.

[Ausglock]

Ready for the range test tomorrow.
HI-TEK Supercoat. 2 coats and sized with Lee push through dies

The 45ACP loads are Major power factor
The 40 S&W are Major power factor
The 38 Super is Minor power factor 135P/F.

72186
72187

[prickett]

Thanks for trying. Actually anybody who has thinned paint could have done the same.

All coats are very thin. I am using the same very thin mix for every coat and I store it in a glass jar.
The first coat should not look like much anything, very little color.
The second coat gives a little color.
The third coat gives enough color. Depending on the PC also.
If not, add a fourth coat.
Main thing is to keep the total thin. And remember to bake after each coat.

I might try someday even Phenolic resin, I have found a maybe suitable product and it comes with a hardener that works in about 150-200 degrees Celsius.

This PC/Acetone is nice because You do not need any separate hardener.

Interesting. My first coat was very thin, like you mentioned, it gave almost no color. Due to that I added more powder for the 2nd and 3rd coat to the point that they came out completely black. How do yours come out? Completely colored or more of a "stained" look (splotchy with some lead showing through)?

I guess the question I'm ultimately driving towards is: does the coating need to be completely concealing the lead? I would assume so, but your using light coats makes me question that. If I used the same light coat on passes 2 and 3 that I used on 1 I don't believe it'd completely conceal the lead. Even with my heavier 2nd and 3rd coat, there is the occasional section of lead showing.

[piglet]

Mine are completely covered after three coats.

I would not use thicker coats.
Try with three very thin coats, if You do not get enough color, add a fourth coat.
Actually I do not think some (very little) lead showing would matter, but it does not look good. Maybe.

A friend of mine is using different colors for each very thin coat.
His bullets look interesting.

[popper]

do not think some (very little) lead showing would matter Anything touching the bbl that is not coated will cause leading. Watch seating so you don't shave any off. After ~ 1500 rnds PC, I found it doesn't clean out any leading, rifle or pistol.

[piglet]

Anything touching the bbl that is not coated will cause leading. Watch seating so you don't shave any off. After ~ 1500 rnds PC, I found it doesn't clean out any leading, rifle or pistol.

Yeah, really watch the seating. Fix a little extra bell.
Which PC did You use and how many coats? Did You get leading from Your PC pistol- or riflebullets or both?

I have shot a couple thousand 9mm and .357 PC-bullets, WW-lead, no leading. Some bullets have not had fully painted grooves.

[prickett]

Nice, got pictures?

Here's a better picture. Shows the kinda splotchy coating. Its smooth, with about 95% coverage. Tomorrow I hope to prove to myself that they shoot better than they look :-)

72266

[Ausglock]

G'day All.

Well. interesting results today.
The 100 rounds 45ACP using a Lee 200SWC coated with 2 coats HI-TEK Supercoat worked fantastic. The bore was clean and the shots grouped very well at 20 yards from a standing position. Very little smoke.

The 100 rounds of 38Super using a Lee 125gr RN were also wearing 2 coats of HI-TEK Supercoat. again the bore was clean and no signs of leading. Accuracy was great and no issues.

The 40S&W loads were Lee 175gr FP with 2 coats of HI-TEK Supercoat. these were fired in a Glock 35 40S&W factory barrel. After 10 rounds the bore was leaded really bad. I fired another 10 rounds and stopped as the lead fouling was severe.
The alloy used was the same for all 3 different types of bullets.
Maybe the alloy was too soft for the 40cal (13BHN) MIght try again with water quenching of the 40 bullets to see of they harden up enough to work.

But... This is my first try. I am determined to keep trying and work it out.
I'h more than happy with the results for the 9mm and 45 pills. there are the main ones I use, So I will be concentrating on producing these.
I'll Update as I go along.

Thanks.

[prickett]

Here's a better picture. Shows the kinda splotchy coating. Its smooth, with about 95% coverage. Tomorrow I hope to prove to myself that they shoot better than they look :-)

72266

Range report:

Fired 100 rounds with Piglet Coat. Much less smoke. Left the gun cleaner than usual with no lube/carbon paste coating the feed ramp. Accuracy didn't seem any different than normal. No leading. I'm declaring Piglet Coat a winner!

I nominate Piglet for the lube innovator of the year.

[TheDoctor]

Has anyone had any issues, with any of the coatings not sticking, due to contaminates like sprue plate lube? Do you have to wash the bullets with a detergent or degreasing agent? Not sure how much, if any lube might be on the base of a bullet. Since I normally use a lubra sizer, it has not been a concern, nor anything I have given thought to.

[prickett]

Has anyone had any issues, with any of the coatings not sticking, due to contaminates like sprue plate lube? Do you have to wash the bullets with a detergent or degreasing agent? Not sure how much, if any lube might be on the base of a bullet. Since I normally use a lubra sizer, it has not been a concern, nor anything I have given thought to.

No problems here.

[TheDoctor]

Next question, or two. Has anyone tried mixing HBN with PC, and are you sizing them like cast, or more like jacketed? Thanks.

[Frankv]

I have been watching this thread for about a week.Had PC and acetone in the shop,went to goodwill and picked up a 6 buck toaster oven.
I was casting 102 grain .356 for my 380 today,so I piglet coated 50 pcs, 3 coats acetone,PC/3-1 Ratio/12 minutes @ 400F after each coat.Sized to .356 lee sizer.look good, I will goo to the range and try them.
I used Parchment paper with a light coat of spray lube to set the boolits on,it smoked a little bit the first coat,then no smoke,and they never got stuck.
This really does make sense,
72427

PC is 2H-3H hardness

Thanks Piglet

[Skip62]

Range report:

Fired 100 rounds with Piglet Coat. Much less smoke. Left the gun cleaner than usual with no lube/carbon paste coating the feed ramp. Accuracy didn't seem any different than normal. No leading. I'm declaring Piglet Coat a winner!

I nominate Piglet for the lube innovator of the year.

I'll second that :drinks:

[prickett]

Next question, or two. Has anyone tried mixing HBN with PC, and are you sizing them like cast, or more like jacketed? Thanks.

Haven't tried mixing hBN with PC. Don't see the need. They size very easily in a Lee sizer (anyone want to buy a RCBS Lubrasizer!)

I sized mine like cast (oversized to .358" for my 9mm). That might make a good experiment down the road, though .358" is working, so why mess with success :-)

[Ausglock]

I'm declaring Piglet Coat a winner!

I nominate Piglet for the lube innovator of the year.

A bit premature, don't you think?

The HI-TEK Supercoat is a great coating. easy to use. proven performance in pistol and rifle loads for over 20 years. Now available to the DIY caster who wants only the best. Certified by independent Lab testing to reduce airborne lead to levels less than copper plated bullets.

One has to wonder... If HI-TEK Supercoat is no good, why is Bayou bullets always sold out as soon as a shipment arrives?

I would like to see a few of the PC bullets smashed with a hammer to see if the PC holds on to the lead like the Supercoat does.

Thanks.

[Skip62]

First of all, I don't think anyone said Supercoat was no good. Problem is, here in the States, availability has been spotty at best. That alone makes it a no go for me. My buddy contacted HI-TEK, and he told him to go through Donnie. My buddy on supposedly on Donnie's preferred list to get the Supercoat and he hasn't gotten a call. It's just not a good option. We have a supply problem with a lot of things in the gun world in America, but PC isn't one of them. Horrible Freight has it all day long, and there are countless others. The same method is used to apply PC as Supercoat, so I don't know what your point is there. You like it, great, you can get it, great. We can't.

[Wal']

On your last point there......availability.......no we can't get it, HI-Tek only sells it in 20 liter drums locally....much to expensive for the home caster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[olaf455]

1 pound of powder is about $8.
1 quart of acetone is about $8.
Not having to wait for your bullet coating to arrive from Australia, priceless...

[olaf455]

There is however no doubt in my mind that the hi-tek coating is a superior product.

[popper]

Did You get leading from Your PC pistol- or riflebullets or both? I get leading from incomplete coated or shaved coating rifle or pistol CBs, doesn't take much. If uncoated lube grooves surface touches the bbl, you will get some leading. olaf455 - haven't used HI-Tek but think I agree with you. When it is not unobtanium, I might try some. So far in my testing, the HF rig is cheap, works & I have the equipment. I don't shoot 223 or games, my moulds are all FP & rifles are 1:10 twist so I'll never see the 223 velocities. I am attempting to get a good 1800-2000 fps 100 yd target/hunting load without GC in 30-30.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

I have some HI-TEk back in stock and have left messages or sent e-mails to all of whom I had on the waiting list.
Should anyone else wish to place order please contact me, phone or e-mail is best.
Thanks
Donnie
bayoubullets@yahoo.com
225-324-4501

[Frankv]

As a follow up to my previous post ,here are a few of the 102's cast yesterday and coated.7245872459

I am happy with the results, will be going to the range later on.Engineering wise I understand the discussion re: Supercote vs other methods. in reality we are trying to encapsulate the lead in a product that insulates the lead from the barrel. Obviously there has been a lot of people on this forum trying various methods. I personally want a method that works ,and that I have some control of availability. When I am in my shop and their are a couple of 1 LB containers of PC from another project, that,s pretty available. I followed Piglets procedure and it was painless and rather quick. If this now proves out(shooting,leading,accuracy) the way others have stated, I will adopt this and do my own testing and evaluation as I go along.
I want to thank everybody on this thread, a lot of time and effort was put in by many.

[Frankv]

The areas in my above post that look uncoated are reflections from the shiny areas caused by sizing, they came out fully coated. I did a hammer test. Looked good to me.

[piglet]

... If uncoated lube grooves surface touches the bbl, you will get some leading. ...

Those bullets that had some PC missing from the grooves, it was just partly the bottoms of the grooves. Lead did not touch the rifling, so no problems. The reason then was too thick mixture.

Since I am not selling anything, I think that everybody should use just the bullet coating method he or she is happy with.
Happy with the availability, ease of use, pot life, cost and naturally also how well it hinders the bullet from leading the barrel.

I do not know yet what the HI-Tek actually is, I suppose it consists mainly of some industrial 2-component paint, resin or glue, but it would be really nice to know if those 3200 ft/s and no leading without GC, is true or just some sales mantra.

[Frankv]

Thanks, I will thin it out a little more next time.

[Frankv]

I did a little fishing around on the makeup of PC.A lot of colors are derived from different iron oxides,which could make those colors abrasive,maybe? Blacks are colored with carbon black, which has some of the same lubricant qualities as graphite.
Gold contains copper and carbon black.
You can verify this by pulling up the MSDS forms for DuPont powder coating.
The polymer is Bisphenol A which is a food grade polymer.
The HF PC is epoxy which makes it less elastic.

[popper]

you found MSDS or data on this? Do you have a link? Best I could find in limited research was it was not an epoxy.

[TES]

Pig how much in your guesstimate would a 16 oz. container of HF PC actually coat?

[GunFun]

Hey guys. 2 points

1) I am avidly following this thread and appreciate the info greatly.

2) I like parallell innovation. I like choices. I like more than one supply stream. Let's pre-empt any stupid "I'm a ford guy/I'm a chevy guy" nonsense. If piglet method (or others) work- great. Let't get all the info on that and refine it to an art. Ditto Wiederlander's version (MCC) with two part epoxy paint. Ditto Hi-Tek. Nothing wrong with Hi-tek making a profit or extolling the virtues of his method, and he has been good about suppluying technical info on how to make competing methods work. If he points out potential problems, that's OK too, so long as he is not baselessly attacking competitors. I appreciate Piglet's info, but some of his hostility toward Hi-tek is counterproductive. Thanks to both of them for their contributions, now let's get back to innovation.

[piglet]

you found MSDS or data on this? Do you have a link? Best I could find in limited research was it was not an epoxy.

Check this link and read the whole page:
http://www.harborfreight.com/16-oz-powder-coat-paint-yellow-93308.html

They seem to have black and red and white too.

It says:

Name 16 Oz. Powder Coat Paint, Yellow
SKU 93308
Color Yellow
Material Plastic Container, Epoxy Resin Powder
Product Length 4-1/4 in.
Product Width 4-1/4 in.
Size(s) 16 oz.

[TES]

G'day All.

Well. interesting results today.
The 100 rounds 45ACP using a Lee 200SWC coated with 2 coats HI-TEK Supercoat worked fantastic. The bore was clean and the shots grouped very well at 20 yards from a standing position. Very little smoke.

The 100 rounds of 38Super using a Lee 125gr RN were also wearing 2 coats of HI-TEK Supercoat. again the bore was clean and no signs of leading. Accuracy was great and no issues.

The 40S&W loads were Lee 175gr FP with 2 coats of HI-TEK Supercoat. these were fired in a Glock 35 40S&W factory barrel. After 10 rounds the bore was leaded really bad. I fired another 10 rounds and stopped as the lead fouling was severe.
The alloy used was the same for all 3 different types of bullets.
Maybe the alloy was too soft for the 40cal (13BHN) MIght try again with water quenching of the 40 bullets to see of they harden up enough to work.

But... This is my first try. I am determined to keep trying and work it out.
I'h more than happy with the results for the 9mm and 45 pills. there are the main ones I use, So I will be concentrating on producing these.
I'll Update as I go along.

Thanks.

The crimp when seating the bullet might be a little tight. Try backing off a bit. I noticed when I pulled a few bullets (Bayou) they had the coating removed. So I backed off a little on the crimp and all coating was there after pulling a few more.

[piglet]

Pig how much in your guesstimate would a 16 oz. container of HF PC actually coat?

I do not have any idea. But must be very many.
I have a 10 kilos bag, have coated several thousand, maybe 5, seems that the bag is still full.

You do not waste anything. If You have too much mixture and it somehow dries out, add acetone and use it.

Actually I think that the powder does not cost anything since HFPC costs only less than $6 for 16oz.

[piglet]

Thanks, I will thin it out a little more next time.

Hey, I did not mean You! I was answering to Popper and writing of my own bullets.

[piglet]

I did a little fishing around on the makeup of PC.A lot of colors are derived from different iron oxides,which could make those colors abrasive,maybe? Blacks are colored with carbon black, which has some of the same lubricant qualities as graphite.
Gold contains copper and carbon black.
You can verify this by pulling up the MSDS forms for DuPont powder coating.
The polymer is Bisphenol A which is a food grade polymer.
The HF PC is epoxy which makes it less elastic..

Should test this gold variant.
If it is more elastic than epoxy, it might be a very good thing, especially if thinking of rifle bullets.
Some bullet painters use gold or coppar colored coatings with rifle bullets, for example these:

http://www.rpgfirearms.com.au/WESTCASTINGS.htm

And Australian shooters claim they are very good.

[popper]

Thanks piglet. I went by the bar code, found it was made in india by a company that primarily made non-epoxy PC. Made a wrong assumption, but I really wanted to know if it was thermoplastic or setting. I used up my jug of white, just got into into the jug of red, dumped in with the remaining white to get pink, still have a jug of black. Can't tell any performance difference between them so far. I did several thousand with the first jug of white, wasted a lot on the learning curve so I say it's almost free.

[piglet]

Thanks piglet. I went by the bar code, found it was made in india by a company that primarily made non-epoxy PC. Made a wrong assumption, but I really wanted to know if it was thermoplastic or setting. I used up my jug of white, just got into into the jug of red, dumped in with the remaining white to get pink, still have a jug of black. Can't tell any performance difference between them so far. I did several thousand with the first jug of white, wasted a lot on the learning curve so I say it's almost free.

Pink bullets. 8-) Cool!
Test the black. It might be better, because of the soot or graphite in the black. Might?

[Frankv]

The HF powder coating is thermosetting,
Epoxy powder coating (FBE coatings) are thermoset polymer coatings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_bonded_epoxy_coating

Once cured, thermosetting powders are heat stable and, unlike thermoplastic powder coatings, will not revert back to the molten stage when reheated. Thermosetting powders are also tougher, have better adhesion to metal substrates, and are more resistant to solvents and chemicals than thermoplastic coatings. Thermosetting powders account for about 95% of all powder coatings.

The HF powder coat does not soften when reheated,so it is a themosetting polymer.
i have requested the MSDS's from HF, as we need to have them on the premise as all other chemicals(OSHA Chemical log)
I will make it available when/if I get it.
if you research the MSDS's from different manufacturers,they are the pretty much the same depending on color.Some colors have Iron oxides,some have copper or other substrate,these create the colors.It would be advantageous for us to find out which have the best lubricating qualities,ect. There is a reason the manufactures of the products offered to our industry uses certain colors.

[TheDoctor]

Cool! Black for general shooting, red for a real slow fire lapping!

[prickett]

A bit premature, don't you think?

The HI-TEK Supercoat is a great coating. easy to use. proven performance in pistol and rifle loads for over 20 years. Now available to the DIY caster who wants only the best. Certified by independent Lab testing to reduce airborne lead to levels less than copper plated bullets.

One has to wonder... If HI-TEK Supercoat is no good, why is Bayou bullets always sold out as soon as a shipment arrives?

I would like to see a few of the PC bullets smashed with a hammer to see if the PC holds on to the lead like the Supercoat does.

Thanks.

Take a deep breath and re-read my post. Nowhere did I state HI-TEK is no good.

Currently we have at least 4 great ways to lube - HI-TEK, Sprayed Powder Coating, Epoxy paint, and Piglet Coat (powder paint dissolved in acetone).

The sprayed powder coat seems the most difficult to do due to having to spray the bottom of bullets. Looking at the jigs people are building to allow full coverage turned me off. Plus, you need to buy a spray gun.

The other three all are equal in terms of ease of application, number of applications required, and baking of the coating. The reason I'm so high on Piglet Coat is:

It is the most readily available of these three options. Powder paint from HF (or a multitude of other stores) and acetone from any hardware store.

It is the least costly of these three options.

It allows a much smaller investment to determine whether to continue or not (I was all set to plop down $100 to see if I liked HI-TEK - but, since it wasn't available, and since I'd just learned about Piglet Coat, I plopped down $6 for the powder instead - I already had the acetone)

I don't know if Piglet Coat can stand up to as high of pressures or smash tests as HI-TEK or Epoxy. But, I also don't care. My use case is coating 9mm, .357, and .45 ACP and not getting leading or smoke while maintaining accuracy. It is completely successful doing that. So, I'm 100% satisfied

[wrinkles]

Have any of you guys tried the spray on epoxy paint? I found some rusoleum epoxy appliance spray on paint at the local store. In this small town it's hard to find much of anything. I might order some PC later on.

[wrinkles]

OK here's one I made with the above mentioned paint. Seems pretty tough, will have to size and load some this afternoon.

72619

[Ausglock]

G'day Wrinkles.
I tried Brake drum paint a few years ago. It was Hi temp etc. Didn't work. The paint didn't stay of the pill during firing, So I went back to conventional lubing/sizing. But now I'm playing with the HI-TEK Supercoat and having great success with it. I found out why my 40 cal pills didn't work. I had far too soft alloy (tested at 10.4 on the Lee hardness chart) and didn't allow long enough for the first coat to dry prior to cooking. We are now in winter and I leave the coated but not cooked pills to sit for 30 minutes to ensure that the coating has had the acetone and underlying moisture has dried off. In summer, 10 minutes will be fine.
I cast some more at 15 BHN last night. They will get coated tonight and fired on Sunday to see how they go.

I have been casting and coating a few 1000 45 pills since Sunday. The Supercoat worked great on them.
Thanks to HI-TEK for a great product.

While I was casting and coating last night, I got a Call from the owner of Topscore Projectiles. He is the Largest and best commercial bullet manufacturer in Australia and has been using Supercoat for over 10 years on his cast bullets. He heard that I was playing with the HI-TEK Supercoat for home casters. He was a huge help in offering some pointers as to where I was going wrong and what could be done to streamline the whole coating process. We had a good old yap about alloys, coating and casting.

Thanks, Robert.

[wrinkles]

Thanks for the info Ausglock. The HI-TEK stuff is too expensive and I really am a DIY kinda of guy so I don't want to buy some something like that I want to mix and stir and bake and play and ... well you the the point. I've put an order for some harbor freight PC, that will be my next experiment. Again thanks for the heads up on the Brake drum paint I was actually looking at that next.

[prickett]

I found out why my 40 cal pills didn't work. I had far too soft alloy (tested at 10.4 on the Lee hardness chart) and didn't allow long enough for the first coat to dry prior to cooking.

Robert,
Are you going to retry using soft alloy, but allowing long enough for the first coat to dry prior to cooking? One thing I'm after with these new lubing methods is to be able to shoot soft alloy. Wheel weight sources are drying up, so being able to shoot pretty much any alloy is a goal of mine.

I'll be trying straight lead with Piglet Coat in a few weeks. It'll be interesting to see if any method allows using soft lead.

[Bullwolf]

Wrinkles, I tried using a regular automotive type spray paint back on page 8 of this thread - post #159. Here's a link back there, for folks who just came to the thread.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?87768-lead-bullets-coated-with-polymer-paint/page8

It worked OK (no leading and same accuracy as my tumble lube) for pistol stuff in my application. However, it was not a very durable coating and I did not enjoy the extra hassle involved.

I also felt the need to point out that RustOleum's "Appliance Epoxy" spray paint, is not a true epoxy paint. It's actually an enamel, with an "appliance epoxy like" finish.
http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=101

OVERVIEW:
Rust-Oleum Specialty Appliance Epoxy is an ultra-hard, moisture resistance enamel that is specifically formulated for indoor metal surfaces. It provides a smooth, washable surface for refinishing the exterior of appliances such as refrigerators, dishwashers, laundry machines, and other indoor metal applications (cabinets, tables). Do not use on objects exposed to heat (stovetops, oven interiors, etc)
http://rustoleum.com/cbgimages/products/SPAesWhtSpL.jpg

I accidentally bought a spray can of RustOleum's Appliance Epoxy spray paint intending to refinish an appliance (dryer) in a rental unit with a somewhat durable finish. I found out the name was just a bit of creative advertising from RustOleum for an enamel spray paint that included the words epoxy, and appliance on the label.

I do have a couple of cans of real epoxy spray paint on hand from another manufacturer. I can't see why an actual epoxy spray paint wouldn't work as well as the normal automotive spray paint did for me. The epoxy stuff is generally a bit more durable after all.

I have not tried using the epoxy spray paint as a boolit coating... yet. Just the earlier automotive VHT roll bar and chassis spray paint I used and referenced back on page 8.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34487&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1311906578

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=4119
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=4170



- Bullwolf

[Frankv]

When a thermoset powder is exposed to elevated temperature, it begins to melt, flows out, and then chemically reacts to form a higher molecular weight polymer in a network-like structure. This cure process, called crosslinking, requires a certain temperature for a certain length of time in order to reach full cure and establish the full film properties for which the material was designed. Normally the powders cure at 200°C (390°F) for 10 minutes. The curing schedule could vary according to the manufacturer's specifications. The application of energy to the product to be cured can be accomplished by convection cure ovens infrared cure ovens, or by laser curing process. The latter demonstrates significant reduction of curing time.
The secret is cure to cross linking, which changes the powder to a irreversible coating.

[Ausglock]

Robert,
Are you going to retry using soft alloy, but allowing long enough for the first coat to dry prior to cooking? One thing I'm after with these new lubing methods is to be able to shoot soft alloy. Wheel weight sources are drying up, so being able to shoot pretty much any alloy is a goal of mine.

I'll be trying straight lead with Piglet Coat in a few weeks. It'll be interesting to see if any method allows using soft lead.


G'day Prickett.
Robert is the owner of Topscore Projectiles. I'm Trevor.
Sorry for the confusion on my last post.

Robert stated that he used Supercoat on pure soft lead in his testing years ago.
He said that alloy at 10BHN should work provided the first coat is applied and cooked correctly.
I still have some of my first casting soft 40 cals, so they will get coated and tried again on Sunday.

Regards, Trevor

[wrinkles]

Well I loaded 100 rounds I'll see if I can go out sometime during the week to shoot a few rounds and check on the results. I'll have to wait for the PC to come in to continue my testing.

72689

[Newshooter]

Robert,
Are you going to retry using soft alloy, but allowing long enough for the first coat to dry prior to cooking? One thing I'm after with these new lubing methods is to be able to shoot soft alloy. Wheel weight sources are drying up, so being able to shoot pretty much any alloy is a goal of mine.

I'll be trying straight lead with Piglet Coat in a few weeks. It'll be interesting to see if any method allows using soft lead.

I'm really interested in if this works for you. I have a lot (1200lbs)of soft sheet lead/roofers lead that I would like to use without having to mix with harder lead maybe just add some tin.

[popper]

Franky - I think the HF powder is less thermosetting than the hi-tek stuff. My PC'd rejects 'slump' into a puddle in the pot, evidently hi-tek doesn't. You are correct, once cured neither is reusable. I was curious about the remelt temp., if it would leave a residue in the bbl. Someone posted that it did in a fast 223 load.
Newshooter - My alloy is 1-2% Sb and the PC does help, I can run hotter loads and maintain accuracy. I'll jump out on the limb and SWAG it to say you get 10-20% increase in effective hardness. It doesn't give the >30 BHN of Cu. Maybe someone with a tester could give a better number?

[Frankv]

Popper-Thermosetting is thermosetting. Once the material melts, and the crosslinking of the polymers is complete, the product is cured. I agree their is a difference between hfp and Hi-tech,but since the methodology of curing is is the same for both, it is not the themosetting that differs these two ,but rather the substrates in the formulas that contribute to the hardness and tensile of the coating.If you peruse the MSDS's of various epoxy polymer powders you will see that some use titanium oxides,and others use various iron oxides,some carbon powders. The tensile and the hardness is probably dependent upon the ratio of substrate to polymer, and the molecular makeup after thermosetting.
I would think that supercoat and Hy-teck are purpose formulated epoxy polymers that take into consideration necessary tensile, hardness, lube abilityand temperature ect.
Most of the Powders that I have seen have hardness of between H-2H(20-28 BHN)
I have a comparitor similar to a Cabine Tree that I built, I will test some or the coated bullets.
In closing I think the performance= right powder coating,with a formula that would give adequate hard/tensile

[HI-TEK]

Popper-Thermosetting is thermosetting. Once the material melts, and the crosslinking of the polymers is complete, the product is cured. I agree their is a difference between hfp and Hi-tech,but since the methodology of curing is is the same for both, it is not the themosetting that differs these two ,but rather the substrates in the formulas that contribute to the hardness and tensile of the coating.If you peruse the MSDS's of various epoxy polymer powders you will see that some use titanium oxides,and others use various iron oxides,some carbon powders. The tensile and the hardness is probably dependent upon the ratio of substrate to polymer, and the molecular makeup after thermosetting.
I would think that supercoat and Hy-teck are purpose formulated epoxy polymers that take into consideration necessary tensile, hardness, lube abilityand temperature ect.
Most of the Powders that I have seen have hardness of between H-2H(20-28 BHN)
I have a comparitor similar to a Cabine Tree that I built, I will test some or the coated bullets.
In closing I think the performance= right powder coating,with a formula that would give adequate hard/tensile


Franky,
Thank you for your input. Most informative.
In the majority, you are correct with what you saying about crosslinking, and products being thermosetting.

What you are saying is correct in as much, that when two or more materials are reacted, to form a thermoset polymer, you are in fact producing a much higher molecular weight compound, that has a higher melting point than original components that were used to make the thermoset polymer.

Where I feel, that you are saying that "methodology of curing is same for both", unfortunately I must disagree with this statement, as I think that this is a very broad generalisation and is really not applicable to all thermoset systems.

Despite epoxies and similar, being thermoset, they all exhibit a fuse melting points, which occurs at various temperatures, and in the majority, at higher temperatures, than prior to thermosetting.
However, not all thermoset polymers behave that way.

It is a simple test to investigate properties of any thermoset polymer to determine if ite melts or fuses at elevated temperatures.

Users, who are trying to examine their polymer, with melting point comparisons between thermoset coatings, can place carefully, on top of melted alloy, their own recipes of thermoset coated projectiles, and see what happens.
They can repeat this simple test with any coated projectiles.

Another method is what has been posted previously, where a blogger placed coated and uncoated projectiles on a steel plate and heated it at the bottom.
As steel plate is progressively heated, to the melting point of the alloy, any changes to coatings and alloys can be easily observed as a direct comparison.

As posted by some, when recycling coated projectiles, in melting pots, you can see what happens to coatings as they are heated, and also observe fumes / flames as material is subjected to heat and if they decompose.

I suppose, this all may be applicable & relate to the coatings, being able withstand the temperatures that are produced during firing, and especially if people use guns where barrel may heat up, rapid fire, or with high energy powders.

My motto is, if it works for you, use it.

[popper]

Frankly your hardness testing results will be interesting. I'm testing to see how close I can get to GC performance, next test would be to see how close to J performance. I think if the makers could use plastic vs Cu they would.

[piglet]

Frankly your hardness testing results will be interesting. I'm testing to see how close I can get to GC performance, next test would be to see how close to J performance. I think if the makers could use plastic vs Cu they would.

I fully agree. That is why I do not believe in 3200 ft/s painted bullets, with no GS, no leading.
But when talking of relatively slow pistol bullets (versus rifle), like 9mm or .357, plastics do work, even normal HF Epoxy PC, with acetone.

Normally bullet makers manufacture jacketed bullets with automatic machinery. And it goes really fast compared with this bucket/owen/ etc. system, also the quality is more consistent and a reloader does not have to be as careful while handling the bullets.

So those are easier to sell to normal shooters.

But we here are people who want to make all kinds of things at home.

So for us these plastic coated are the most economical and easiest to make no-grease bullets.

[Frankv]

Thank you for your information and I agree that the method you mentioned would indicate the melting point of of different cured items. I was being general when I mentioned thermoset is thermoset. Because of the polymers used in the PC/Fusion bonded Epoxys with an average application the TG is around 200°C,time being the variable.The melting point is always higher than the tg,the melting is dependent on the substrates that make up the product.
When I worked offshore we had pipeline fusion bonded epoxy's that reached their tg in 30 seconds and some took 20 minutes.
Although I would like to keep researching other materials for thi application,I am looking forward to try Hi-tech

[HI-TEK]

I also wondered, when I was told by a company, that claimed to have used the HI-TEK coated projectiles successfully at 3100ft.sec.
At least, that is what was reported, without supplying any further advice.
I investigated possibility, and found that in US, there are alloys, and composites that are sold as being able to shoot at that that speed, with lubes, & without jacketing.
It tended to reinforce possibility of what was advised, & may have been possible with the right alloy or composite.
As I am aware that the HI-TEK-Supercoat does not melt or fuse with increase of heat, so I did not question any further the claimed possibility.
Also, if as reported, if the HI-TEK coated projectiles survive 2600ft/sec, and leaves no residue, it tends to suggest that it already had been exposed to extreme frictional heat & forces and survived.
I don't know how much additional frictional heat may be generated with an extra 500ft/sec.
The rationale I am using is, that with such speeds, the resident time in the barrel is significantly decreased, and once velocity is reached there is very little drag or frictional heat being produced.
I also agree, that for some applications, powder coating may work in some applications, but over many years, have seen very little data that confirmed success in wider applications.

[bmiller]

When I shot my hi-tek coated bullets to jacketed velocity, I think my biggest problem was centrifugal force. I have a 1 in 9 barrel I was playing with. The bullets that made it to the target, blew up most impressively! Half did not get there. The last one I shot had the coating damaged while reloading. It leaded profusely. The bullets that were loaded correctly did not lead. They are working great at 2500 fps in my ar-15. Makes a great practice round. I think the claims of the coating have heat reflectivity are valid.

[Ausglock]

G'day. That is great news and a good result.
What was your alloy BHN?
Are you going to try a harder alloy?
Thanks

[bmiller]

I do not know the hardness. It is type metal I purchased at a scrap yard. I need to have it tested. At some point I am going to purchase some certified alloy.

[bangerjim]

Wheeeew! This thread is almost unmanageable.

I have read a bunch of it and have a question.

I have tried acetone and the powder just sits in the bottom of the bottle! Shaking it suspends it but does NOT dissolve it as I expected.

Same with lacquer thinner.

Whaaaas up?

Will MEK actually dissolve this HF powder into a paint consistency??? I was expecting it to be like thin paint when tumble coating.

Please share your thoughts.

I have a powder coating gun but it is a pain in the keester to use....poweder all over the place, spray booth needed, dust mask, fans, air compressor, etc.

This liquid process, although VERY time consuming doing it 3 times, is not as intrusinve to your environment. After all ...."time is money".....and after ObamaScare....there is not much of that left either.

Advise!

THX.
bangerjim 8-)

[piglet]

I
.....Also, if as reported, if the HI-TEK coated projectiles survive 2600ft/sec, and leaves no residue, it tends to suggest that it already had been exposed to extreme frictional heat & forces and survived.
I don't know how much additional frictional heat may be generated with an extra 500ft/sec.
.....
I also agree, that for some applications, powder coating may work in some applications, but over many years, have seen very little data that confirmed success in wider applications.

What do You mean by this "success in wider applications"?

I have been totally happy with all my Epoxy powder coated pistol bullets.
9mm and .357.

Since Epoxy PC mixed with acetone works with those, it should work with almost every pistol bullet.

It is also very economical, compared with any other smokeless method.

There is very much data of Powder Coated bullets, if one knows how to use Google.
Check ARES. They manufacture (in Europe) very popular lead bullets.

PC mixed with Acetone is still PC.
Actually I never heard of anybody who has tried this acetone method earlier, although it is very possible somebody has.

Plastic coated bullets (with these bucket methods) are maybe no good for rifles, because the lead based alloy might disintegrate.
Maybe Zinc might work? Although it is not so easy to cast.

[bmiller]

I tried hf powder in my rifle. I did not chrono, but they where approaching jacketed velocity. They left red streaks in my barrel. It was a pain to get it out! It seamed to work fine at more reasonable velocity.

[popper]

Plastic coated bullets (with these bucket methods) are maybe no good for rifles, because the lead based alloy might disintegrate. Don't quite understand this. My pistol & rifle alloys are only different in the amount of Sb. So far so good in my 30-30 & 308, but I'm not doing 3K fps.

[Frankv]

Piglet-I shot the 100 rounds today that I loaded over the weekend. No leading,smokeless,accurate. i'm happy with the performance.
50 around 8-9 BHN/50 14-15 BHN

Thanks

[piglet]

Don't quite understand this. My pistol & rifle alloys are only different in the amount of Sb. So far so good in my 30-30 & 308, but I'm not doing 3K fps.
I can only guess how PC would work with higher speeds, since I have not experimented with those.
It is nice if it works for You, since then it surely works for others too.

What do You have for 308 speed and how heavy are the bullets?

Ares is selling painted bullets for rifles too. Seem to be Epoxy-coated.

Check this: http://www.ares-gun.sk/?page=1

[popper]

bangerjim - I tried the PC & acetone and got a slush too (HF powder). Tried to touch up some of my rejects from this morning. It worked but not to my satisfaction. Note: I didn't tumble them, painted them, a single heavy coat. Coverage was almost complete but very lumpy. I think that it starts to kick off the cross-link by itself. Slopped some onto the vinyl work bench top. It doesn't come off when dry. I placed them base down to dry, stuck to the paper. They stuck to the PC'd tray when curing. I'll stick to the ES gun. Cast imperfections sure show up good when you've coated them. Little dings and dents, lead in the GC groove, etc. I thought I'd inspected pretty good.
180 FB RD 30-30, same GC, 165 GC 308. Don't have a crony but the FB POI inch higher than my core-lok load @ 50. 308 prints a little higher than an 168 Amax load. Loads are ~ 70-80% jacketed loads, want to test the FB @ 80%. My GC loads are middle jacketed. I'm running the 40SW PCd @ full jacketed loads.

[bangerjim]

popper-------you must be in my shop! Exactly what I had.

Tried the 3 coat thing and it got worse each time.....lumpy, blotchy, not perrrrrrrty like the gun-coated slugs.

I tried MEK this morning and it does NOT dissolve the powder either. What you are getting is an emulsion/suspension using the acetone/MEK/whatever as a volatile vehicle. Mine have blobs and voids in the coatings. And as I know from my years of wood-finishing, you can't hide defects with more coats of goop!!!!!!

Lac thinner can vary from brand to brand, but acetone is acetone! Standard LT has a ton of acetone in it as well as tolulene, benzene, and other rather nasty stuff......that smells great and makes you feel reeeeeeeeeeeeel good! [smilie=1:

Does anyone else have any ideas????? A paint-on/tumble method would sure be nice.

What DOES dissolve this darn stuff in poweder for? I have every solvent know to man in my shops and nothing will dissolve it......only suspend it for a short time.

bangerjim :killingpc

[popper]

bangerjim - not knocking the process, if it works for you, fine. I don't think it will dissolved, just as in any paint thinner, it is a carrier that evaporates. Dipping may work but how do you hold it? Piglet's tumble method is most practical. I think we both used too much acetone.

[piglet]

?? My PC is really easy to mix with acetone. It is Epoxy, although not HF. And I am using a very thin mix.

[Frankv]

piglet-I used HF PC, worked fine using your process.

[abqcaster]

I used HF PC too in acetone. The pigment didn't go into solution, but he polymer did and I just had to keep tumbling (sloshing) in a plastic dish. It coated very evenly but I let it get too thick/dry before spreading them out on the mesh to dry before curing, so they ended up uneven. I figure next time I'll use lighter coating and not tumble as long before setting them on the mesh. Seems like it's just a matter of practice....

[TES]

OK I'm starting a new thread on PC coating....Tired of waiting and seeing mixed content.

[abqcaster]

Like this, TES? http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits

[TES]

No about the Piglet method specifically.

[Skip62]

piglet-I used HF PC, worked fine using your process.

+1, I'm quite satisfied. It's the thin coat's that works, and mixing it really well. 2 to 1 PC. I found This (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=31675) which helped mixing. I mixed last Saturday, and it's still liquid in the can today. Last batch I did I ended up with 4 coats, cuz I put it on so thin. That seems like a lot, but only takes about 2 minutes of effort. I am only running pistol bullets though.

[Skip62]

I used HF PC too in acetone. The pigment didn't go into solution, but he polymer did and I just had to keep tumbling (sloshing) in a plastic dish. It coated very evenly but I let it get too thick/dry before spreading them out on the mesh to dry before curing, so they ended up uneven. I figure next time I'll use lighter coating and not tumble as long before setting them on the mesh. Seems like it's just a matter of practice....

Yes, practice it was it took for me. I don't tumble long at all. I don't wait till they start sticking. As soon they have a fairly even coat, I toss on the wire mesh, and start spreading them out. They are dry a few seconds on the mesh. If that helps any.

[SpotHound]

Ausglock

Spill the beans on the topscore tips !

[Ausglock]

Ausglock

Spill the beans on the topscore tips !

When I have verified it by doing it myself.
Needless to say... The reject shop has fan heaters on sale for $15. gunna go get a couple today.

[bmiller]

Yes, practice it was it took for me. I don't tumble long at all. I don't wait till they start sticking. As soon they have a fairly even coat, I toss on the wire mesh, and start spreading them out. They are dry a few seconds on the mesh. If that helps any.

Have you done any large batches? Do you just pour them out randomly on the mesh? Does the mesh imprint on the bullets in the oven?

Thanks

[TES]

Have you done any large batches? Do you just pour them out randomly on the mesh? Does the mesh imprint on the bullets in the oven?

Thanks

The wire mesh did leave some clumping on mine. When I made the mixture thinner it coated better but was still rough. I had to coat and heat 3 times and was still not totally satisfied.

[leadman]

I think the pc or Hi-Tek coating systems allow for softer alloys even at increased velocities. I shot 8BHN in my 30-06, 180gr boolit with GC, to 1,950fps with excellent accuracy with the HT coating. No leading at all. I can't remember for sure but I think I hit 1,700 fps with the HF pc.
I am gonig to change powders and try for 2,600 or more in the 30-06. Also when time allows I am going to try out the 22 K-Hornet or 223 with a 45gr RN Lyman boolit. I have pushed this to 3K fps with no leading, but finer accuracy is at 2,700 fps.
The 22 will be Lino, while the 30-06 will be an alloy around 18 BHN.
I found that the baking annealed the water quenched alloy back to air cooled BHN. Has anyone checked a hard alloy to see if it is annealed after baking?

[Skip62]

Have you done any large batches? Do you just pour them out randomly on the mesh? Does the mesh imprint on the bullets in the oven?

Thanks

I do around 200 at a time. I use a 2 1/2 quart paint mixing container. I just sprinkle them onto the mesh, shake the mesh to get them to separate some, and flash off any MEK that's left, then separate them by hand to make sure none are touching. A few will be stuck to the mesh after baking, but it doesn't hurt anything. I don't have any clumping, if you do, it's because you didn't mix the solution enough. This is KEY! I believe some are expecting a perfectly smooth coat, and your not going to get that with PC and this method, you can with the Klass Kote epoxy paint, but it leaves a paint in the barrel, which comes right out with a couple passes with a plastic brush. Even the HI-TEK coated bullets I get from Bayou aren't perfectly smooth, but the shine makes them look like it. The PC is still rougher, but I don't believe it's a problem at pistol speeds, I don't load for rifle....yet.

[Ausglock]

G'day.
Here are a few photos of smashed bullets I coated this afternoon and one of 3 commercial coated bullets.
The PC Piglet thread shows a bullet with the HI-TEK coating flaking off. The only way this can happen is if the first coat was not cured correctly.
When I do the first coat, I use a very thin coat so that the bullets are only just showing a light hint of colour. This is enough. you do not have to drown them in coating.
The youtube video says to leave the first coat to dry for 10 minutes. This is OK in Summer. But not in the other seasons. In OZ we are now in winter, and I am leaving my first coat for 30 minutes to cure. I am even now using a small fan heater to blow warm (not Hot) air over the coated bullets for 5 minutes before curing just to ensure that the first coat is dry and there is no moisture trapped between the lead and the coating. This moisture WILL cause the coating not to bond to the lead.

I have coated and loaded more 40S&W rounds for firing tomorrow in the Glock 35. I will keep you posted.

I have also loaded 50 rounds of Lee 150gr RN coated with HI-TEK coating for firing in a Desert Eagle 357Magnum.

Commercial Topscore Projectiles have been used in Desert Eagles here in OZ for years. Even the manufacturers of the Desert Eagle state do not use lead bullets as it will block the gas port. This is no problem for HI-TEK Supercoated bullets. My Buddy has put thousands of 357 mag full power loads through his Desert Eagle. He is keen to try my coated bullets tomorrow.

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[kweidner]

Wanted to update on cost of HT. I just bought some from Donnie in black one liter is $68 now as he is buying in much larger volume. 5 teaspoons double coated 600 bullets of various calibers and weights twice. (45acp to 9mm). 202 teaspoons in a liter. 40 5 teaspoon batches per liter. so it will coat 24000 bullets per liter. That is .002833333 cents per bullet. How does one say that this is expensive? Granted 5.00 HF is cheaper but HT is proven by a much larger audience. I will continue to buy the hi tech and play with powder coat for different colors. just wanted to put it in prespective for you guys under the impression this stuff is super expensive. At a penny per 33 bullets roughly expensive it IS NOT!

[Ausglock]

Yep. not expensive at all considering the number of bullets that can be coated per litre.
And a far superior coating that is being field tested every week by thousands of users for over 20 years.
You can't get a better recommendation than that.

HI-TEK Supercoat. Wrap your lead in it.

[bmiller]

Maybe everyone else already knew this, but this what I discovered. I shot a steel match last weekend, 300 plates. By the end of the match I am noticing some leading and quite a bit of smoke. I just switched from 124 grain lee tumble lube bullets to 135 grain NOE bullets. Both using the hi-tek coating. After I got home I decided to pull a few left over rounds and I discovered the reason, I was stripping off the coating on the front grease ring. I use lee dies. I put more bell in the case, then adjusted the seating die the whole way in and set the bullet depth with the die body. I have a lee final size die, I use it to crimp the round next. I used a very light crimp. As you can see in the picture, the problem is solved. No leading, little smoke.

[HI-TEK]

Wanted to update on cost of HT. I just bought some from Donnie in black one liter is $68 now as he is buying in much larger volume. 5 teaspoons double coated 600 bullets of various calibers and weights twice. (45acp to 9mm). 202 teaspoons in a liter. 40 5 teaspoon batches per liter. so it will coat 24000 bullets per liter. That is .002833333 cents per bullet. How does one say that this is expensive? Granted 5.00 HF is cheaper but HT is proven by a much larger audience. I will continue to buy the hi tech and play with powder coat for different colors. just wanted to put it in prespective for you guys under the impression this stuff is super expensive. At a penny per 33 bullets roughly expensive it IS NOT!

Thanks for your detailed cost analysis.
It certainly puts things into perspective.
Just another cost saving idea is, as you get more experienced with coating techniques, you should easily coat 35,000 per litre if not more.
The coating really does not requite thick coatings at each stage. First coat being applied, can be a diluted, to produce almost a stain and wet out, and to just barely cover alloy surfaces.
This can be achieved by simple dilution of the coating, and using this diluted mixture to coat.
All the solvent dilution will do, is allow coating to be spread over as many projectiles as possible with minimum coating use.
Then, this first film of coating, needs to allowed to dry thoroughly, and baked to desired cure.
Smash test and sizing test on first coat will tell you if you had done things right.
If first coating does not fail with severe tests, only then, apply second coat.
If it fails at first coat impact and sizing tests, check why it failed and do not even try to put on a second coat, as it wont work, and second coat wont fix the adhesion failure of first coat.
If first coat is found as being no good (no adhesion), you are wasting materials and time coating a second time.
In majority, multiple coats are used to improve appearance, and provide better imperfection coverage, to maximize alloy and barrel separation.
As posted previously, a single coat was used successfully with various guns without gas checks and they all worked.
A single coat does not look pretty but for majority of applications it will work just fine with getting more confidence with experience.
I hope to get more updates from you on your experimentation, to see just how far you can make a litre go with your project.
Thanks much for your input.

[HI-TEK]

Maybe everyone else already knew this, but this what I discovered. I shot a steel match last weekend, 300 plates. By the end of the match I am noticing some leading and quite a bit of smoke. I just switched from 124 grain lee tumble lube bullets to 135 grain NOE bullets. Both using the hi-tek coating. After I got home I decided to pull a few left over rounds and I discovered the reason, I was stripping off the coating on the front grease ring. I use lee dies. I put more bell in the case, then adjusted the seating die the whole way in and set the bullet depth with the die body. I have a lee final size die, I use it to crimp the round next. I used a very light crimp. As you can see in the picture, the problem is solved. No leading, little smoke.

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.
You are correct with every thing you have done. Well done.
It must be highlighted, that the HT is only a dry film coating/lubricant.
It can be shaved off adhering to Lead, with sharp edges and is not an armor plating on the alloy.
Once it is stuck on alloy well, it server the purpose of separating alloy and barrel, and should survive the firing process.
If coating integrity is damaged with the way it is loaded, then the coating cannot further separate metals as required.
Please continue your updates to help others become experienced with use of the coating.

[olaf455]

I can't recommend enough the use of the appropriate Lyman "M" die.
It will basically eliminate any shaving of the coating if used properly.
I have one for each calibre that I load cast boolits for, and I would not have it any other way. Well worth the investment.

[prickett]

Wanted to update on cost of HT. I just bought some from Donnie in black one liter is $68 now as he is buying in much larger volume. 5 teaspoons double coated 600 bullets of various calibers and weights twice. (45acp to 9mm). 202 teaspoons in a liter. 40 5 teaspoon batches per liter. so it will coat 24000 bullets per liter. That is .002833333 cents per bullet. How does one say that this is expensive? Granted 5.00 HF is cheaper but HT is proven by a much larger audience. I will continue to buy the hi tech and play with powder coat for different colors. just wanted to put it in prespective for you guys under the impression this stuff is super expensive. At a penny per 33 bullets roughly expensive it IS NOT!

Great news!

Hopefully, we can give Donnie enough business that he can order larger quantities and lower the price even more, PLUS have a steady supply on hand.

Thanks for passing on the savings Donnie!

[Ausglock]

Maybe everyone else already knew this, but this what I discovered. I shot a steel match last weekend, 300 plates. By the end of the match I am noticing some leading and quite a bit of smoke. I just switched from 124 grain lee tumble lube bullets to 135 grain NOE bullets. Both using the hi-tek coating. After I got home I decided to pull a few left over rounds and I discovered the reason, I was stripping off the coating on the front grease ring. I use lee dies. I put more bell in the case, then adjusted the seating die the whole way in and set the bullet depth with the die body. I have a lee final size die, I use it to crimp the round next. I used a very light crimp. As you can see in the picture, the problem is solved. No leading, little smoke.

G'day bmiller.
Mate, you have discovered what Aussie shooters have found out years ago when loading any lead bullet. That is to flare,bell the case mouth until at least 2mm of the bullet base will sit in the case at the seating die station on the press.
Everyone that I teach to reload is scared to flare the case mouth too much cause they are scared of splitting cases. I always ask if they want nice accurate ammo or nice cases, but with leaded barrel and poor accuracy.

When loading with a new bullet or different shape I always load up a dummy round and them pull it to check the bullet has still got full coating.

I load 38 special with 135gr wadcutters that are coated with HI_TEK. these have a heavy crimp. Even these bullets when pulled still have full coating.

I only use Dillon presses (550B for 9mm, 357Sig, 38 Super, 40S&W, 38 Special 357Mag. and Square deal B for the 45ACP) but most are fitted with Lee dies.
Outstanding effort there, Mate. well done.

[prickett]

I can't recommend enough the use of the appropriate Lyman "M" die.
It will basically eliminate any shaving of the coating if used properly.
I have one for each calibre that I load cast boolits for, and I would not have it any other way. Well worth the investment.

If using a Lee powder thru the die for 9mm, replacing its expander with a 38 S/W's expander works wonders for 9mm's too. See this posting: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod&p=2163536&viewfull=1#post2163536

[Skip62]

Wanted to update on cost of HT. I just bought some from Donnie in black one liter is $68 now as he is buying in much larger volume. 5 teaspoons double coated 600 bullets of various calibers and weights twice. (45acp to 9mm). 202 teaspoons in a liter. 40 5 teaspoon batches per liter. so it will coat 24000 bullets per liter. That is .002833333 cents per bullet. How does one say that this is expensive? Granted 5.00 HF is cheaper but HT is proven by a much larger audience. I will continue to buy the hi tech and play with powder coat for different colors. just wanted to put it in prespective for you guys under the impression this stuff is super expensive. At a penny per 33 bullets roughly expensive it IS NOT!

Every thing being relative. $68 is 40lbs of lead and the HF PC.

As far as being "far superior", a 700 hp engine in vehicle used for rush hour traffic, not superior to anything. For my uses, I see no difference, and I have both products.

[bmiller]

G'day bmiller.
Mate, you have discovered what Aussie shooters have found out years ago when loading any lead bullet. That is to flare,bell the case mouth until at least 2mm of the bullet base will sit in the case at the seating die station on the press.
Everyone that I teach to reload is scared to flare the case mouth too much cause they are scared of splitting cases. I always ask if they want nice accurate ammo or nice cases, but with leaded barrel and poor accuracy.

When loading with a new bullet or different shape I always load up a dummy round and them pull it to check the bullet has still got full coating.

I load 38 special with 135gr wadcutters that are coated with HI_TEK. these have a heavy crimp. Even these bullets when pulled still have full coating.

I only use Dillon presses (550B for 9mm, 357Sig, 38 Super, 40S&W, 38 Special 357Mag. and Square deal B for the 45ACP) but most are fitted with Lee dies.
Outstanding effort there, Mate. well done.

Thanks Ausglock, I am a Dillon fan as well. I started out many moons ago loading on a square deal B, am loading on a 650 right now. I am going to sell it as soon as my 1050 gets here. I am glad the Austrailian bullet technology has made it here.

[TES]

Jeeze HFPC is more for me a color option vs cost. It is also an availability option. One liter coats 24000 bullets ...all the same color. Hard to change color for a client when you have to wait...(best guess) just to get pink for that very nice lady who wants to shoot spme pretty boolits. If I bout a 5 liter pack and had the option to add pigment and change color I would buy this vs. experimenting with something else. As it stands there is not an option for this. I asked and got a cold shoulder as if I was trying to pry some secret from the guy. Kinda pissed me off!

[Ausglock]

TES. The colour in the HI-TEK coating is that fine that it will actually flow through a finer filter than 0.1 micron.
From what I understand, finding chemicals that fine that are used to colour the coating is not easy.

Well. I fired off a heap of HI-TEK coated pills today.

Heaps of 45ACP being driven hard at 200 power factor with no leading and great accuracy.
Lee 228RN, Lee 230FP machined back to 205gr, Lyman 452374, Lee 200SCW converted to 205gr. All are great. These are now gunna be pumped out for my 45.

Some Lee 120gr CON were loaded and fired in SVI 9mm and Kimber Stainless Target 2 in 38 Super. No leading and great accuracy no issues at all. These are also gunna get pumped out.

Some Lee 125gr RN were loaded and fired in Kimber Stainless Target 2 in 38 Super. No leading and great accuracy. No issues at all. These are also gunna get pumped out.

The Lee 175gr FP 40 cal is still giving headaches. The soft alloy and the harder alloy still showed some leading. not as bad as last time, however.
The soft is 10BHN. The hard is 13BHN. I have some 15BHN (92,6,2 alloy). I'm going to cast some from this alloy and try it.

The Lee 150gr RN 357Mag load ran through the Desert Eagle like excrement through a goose. Outstanding accuracy and zero leading. Also pumped a few through a S&W 586 4" with no issues

My Buddy has a Para in 40S&W. I'm going to get him to try some through his gun with conventional rifling, Rather than through my Factory Glock barrel.
I am also going to try some of the 125gr RN 9mm sized to .357 for Major loads in my 357Sig barrel in the G35. My 357Sig barrel is actually .357 when slugged.

So. very good results for most and a bit more trial for the 40 cals.

"Infidel Projectiles" are a goer....You beauty...

Now to decide If a Magma Master caster or a Ballisti-caster are in my future. A co-conspirator and Myself are considering the possibilities.

Stay tuned... same bat time...Same bat channel..

[prickett]

The Lee 175gr FP 40 cal is still giving headaches. The soft alloy and the harder alloy still showed some leading. not as bad as last time, however.
The soft is 10BHN. The hard is 13BHN. I have some 15BHN (92,6,2 alloy). I'm going to cast some from this alloy and try it.


I don't understand why you'd be getting leading. These coatings ought to seal the lead off from the barrel. I'm not understanding how leading would be possible. Can you fire some into phone books or water jugs to recover the bullets. That way you could check to see if the coating survived the trip down the barrel.

[piglet]

Every thing being relative. $68 is 40lbs of lead and the HF PC.

As far as being "far superior", a 700 hp engine in vehicle used for rush hour traffic, not superior to anything. For my uses, I see no difference, and I have both products.

Exactly!

Why pay several times more for a product if another product ($6 HarborFreight PC or any other Epoxy PC) is good enough and easier to use too?
And is much easier to get, has almost unlimited pot life, several colors, and so on.....

[Frankv]

Piglet- From your experience can you Premix the pc and acetone and store it in an airtight container without the pc deteriorating. I have been mixing as needed.
If I can premix a pint, I can submerse a small parts basket with about 500 9's in it, agitate it and set them out to dry.Then seal the pint container.

[Ausglock]

I don't understand why you'd be getting leading. These coatings ought to seal the lead off from the barrel. I'm not understanding how leading would be possible. Can you fire some into phone books or water jugs to recover the bullets. That way you could check to see if the coating survived the trip down the barrel.

Yep going to try the phone book thing. I forgot to take them with me today.

I believe powders play a part in leading, So I'm going to try a faster powder than WSF.

The bullets pulled from the loaded ammo show no loss of coating during loading.
Having said this. I am full on producing the 45, 9mm and 358 dia bullets.

[Frankv]

Trevor- The formula (from the pages of HandLoader Magazine) to determine at what pressure an alloy of given BHN will obturate the base of the bullet and seal the bore. If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely.
Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422.
Example: Alloy BHN of 12 multiplied by 1422 = 17,064. An alloy of 12 BHN should be used with a load that develops a "minimum" of 17,000 psi
With that in mind does the gas cutting effect the coating.

[Skip62]

Piglet- From your experience can you Premix the pc and acetone and store it in an airtight container without the pc deteriorating. I have been mixing as needed.
If I can premix a pint, I can submerse a small parts basket with about 500 9's in it, agitate it and set them out to dry.Then seal the pint container.

Yes you can, if it does dry, you just add more acetone. I bought a mixer from Rockler that goes on 1 quart cans. I just turn the handle a few times and start pouring.
http://www.rockler.com/m/product.cfm?page=31675

It mixes far easier, and more completely, than anything else I've tried.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

[piglet]

Piglet- From your experience can you Premix the pc and acetone and store it in an airtight container without the pc deteriorating. I have been mixing as needed.
If I can premix a pint, I can submerse a small parts basket with about 500 9's in it, agitate it and set them out to dry.Then seal the pint container.
I have stored it in a glass jar with an airtight lid for some 5-6 weeks, normal room temperature.
That works very well anyway.

I have not had any reason to store the mix for longer periods.

The powder I have had for about 10 months now.

[Skip62]

If I can premix a pint, I can submerse a small parts basket with about 500 9's in it, agitate it and set them out to dry.Then seal the pint container.

Please keep us posted on how well this works.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

[prickett]

Yep going to try the phone book thing. I forgot to take them with me today.

I believe powders play a part in leading, So I'm going to try a faster powder than WSF.

The bullets pulled from the loaded ammo show no loss of coating during loading.
Having said this. I am full on producing the 45, 9mm and 358 dia bullets.

Its odd that the 9mm doesn't lead but the .40 does. Both fire at about the same pressure. Seems that if one works the other should too.

[popper]

Lee 175gr FP 40 cal is still giving headaches Try cycling a few and inspect the coating for scratch & ding.

[dverna]

I have read the last 8 pages of this massive thread and have the following comments:

There are claims of pistol accuracy - but almost no mention of groups. I doubt accuracy claims are from a Ransom rest or even sandbagged. So, I am left with questions. Hand held pistol groups will tell you if you have a junk load but not if you have an accurate load - unless you can shoot high expert or master Bullseye at 50 yards. If so, sign with your real name so we can check you out.

There seems to be even less information on rifle loads. With the PITA of multiple coating and drying cycles and small batches this method would have merit if it produced consistently accurate bullets at velocities over 2000 fps. I doubt the claim of 3200 fps unless it is supported by someone here who has an established reputation. Otherwise I call it BS and marketing hype to justify sales.

For pistol bullets (which I use in large quantities) I will keep lubrisizing with a Star and process 800 a hour. This PC or HT system offers no advantages at all. If you are leading with pistol bullets, something is wrong with your methods and there are more efficient solutions.

There are arguments about cost that make no sense to me. If this method saves a few dollars per thousand but only produces 100 bullets an hour (after triple coating, drying and sizing) is it really worth the loss in productivity?

I suppose if pretty bullets are a big deal this is the way to do it. I will take good groups over pink or neon bullets anytime. But that's just me.

The proponents of PC, or epoxy paint need to succulently identify the advantages of their system. If the only advantage is the "cool factor" - that is OK but it is worthless to people who either shoot a lot or want superior performance (accuracy/speed). The only niche I see is the potential to shoot softer lead at higher velocities for social work or hunting. And in that case, so few projectiles are needed, that lower production rate and cost are minor issues. But then testing needs to show the improvement in terminal ballistics.

Don Verna

PS - And no, if you look me up I no longer shoot Bullseye - but I did 35 years ago.

[bmiller]

Don, the reason I started playing with coated bullets is to reduce smoke. If I get a chance I will shoot some groups off of a rest. I am merely trying to exchange information, I have nothing to gain or loose if you use coated bullets or not.

[Liberty'sSon]

Dverna, my interest in the coatings, Hi Tek in particular, is because of it's proven track record in factory Glock barrels. I know many people shoot traditionally lubed lead in Glocks with no issues however I believe this to be a better system.

[popper]

Dverna - check out the other PC thread for posted accuracy/group results. No smoke, no lead, higher fps without GC, same or better groups, etc. My range only allows resting on a padded 2x4 for pistol. I shoot rifle off bags, scoped. I haven't found any reason yet to NOT use it, I use the ES gun to coat.

[dverna]

Guys,

Thanks for responding. I can be a PITA sometimes but I like to keep things simple if I can.

LS, I have just converted to a .40 Glock and have heard about the potential issues with leading. I have already bought an aftermarket 9mm barrel to shoot lead bullets for cheaper practice and I purchased a PB gas check maker from Pat Marlin to try on lead .40 bullets. With the GC's I hope I can run a softer alloy and not lead too badly - we will see.

Popper, I will look at the other thread. For rifle work, accuracy is almost everything to me. I will go to a lot of added effort to get a 1/2" off average groups size at 100 yards. And if you can shoot a softer bullet that is a big plus for hunting. Cast pistol bullets have given me all the accuracy I want so another 1/2" at 50 yards will not be worth it for me. I do not shoot pistols at 50 yards any more so if I can hit a tennis ball at 25 yards that is all the accuracy I need. I plan on producing self defense bullets that will expand. My direction has been to use as soft a HP bullet as I can with a GC. If it shoots for 50 rounds before leading, that will do the job. I can practice with a harder bullet (preferably without a GC) so I can make blasting ammo simply and easily. PC coated self-defense rounds in neon green might not be that great if I ever needed to shoot anyone. Someone might wonder *** is this guy making/doing? KISS.

[bangerjim]

7306773068730697307073071Have been doing some "playing around" with the HF gun and system.

1st I bought a $5.00 air reg they sell and it is perfect for what this gun needs. See picture. I bought a couple 1/4" MNPT to plastic tubing barb adaptors at Lowe's and used aquarium tubing for the air line. Then "stiffed the whole thing in some 1/2" black ribbed plastic wire surround. Taped the ends....and now have an "all-in-one" high voltage and air supply hose. I just hate having wires and hoses running around! You don NOT need a standard heavy big rubber 1/4" air line witn big brass disconnects on the ends to run this little dude. I put the disconnect ONLY on the REGULATOR.

The little reg and the small tubing give more than enough air pressure/flow to "puff" the powder out of the gun. I have found if I gently tap the bottle against my hand B-4 pulling the trigger, it give a perfect flow and coverage.

Also do NOT screw the bottle of poweder on the gun. That is why they give you 2 empty bottles with the gun. Put only about an inch of poweder in the empty bottle!

The coating is perfect, as seen by the red and black 45 cal slugs I coated this morning. Coat-bake-coat-bake is the perfect thickness. Sized perfectly.

See the "charpy" impact test on one of them. I hit that sucker hard from the top and the side with a 4# hammer and could not get the coating to crack or come off!

I have found my new "madness" !!!!8-) BWAHH-HAAA-HAAA!

To the wife was said a few years ago: "this reloading hobby will save us hundreds of dollars"...........(is now costing us thousands!).

bangerjim :Bright idea:

[Frankv]

It didn't work, went back to tumbling. Coated 500 in an hour while I was casting another 500 9/125 gr.Will post pictures later.

[popper]

Bangerjim - great idea! Think I will attach the reg to the yellow box.

[TES]

Banger it looks like a fair amount came off the base. Is it just very thin?

[bangerjim]

Banger it looks like a fair amount came off the base. Is it just very thin?

That was an "oversize" thru the die. And.....it was only 1 coat! The sizing die actuatlly flowed the lead off the end of the slug. It was coated, but that one had a lump on the back end that the sizer did not like. I knew it would be gone because I really had to crank on the handle to get the slug thru the die. I just used it because I did not want to waste any of the good ones on the hammer & anvil test.

All the other ones are fully coated and the sizer does not take anything off..... if the base boolit is within spec. My 6 cav mold is normally within a thou of where the die is. This one was a little different - probably hit the pan when I dumped them out of the mold. I dump into a wet towel normally, but occasionally one misses and hits the bricks or the pan. Then back in the pot. This one missed the return trip--------- for now.

Sorry for any confusion but this stuff DOES NOT COME OFF!


bangerjim

[piglet]

It didn't work, went back to tumbling. Coated 500 in an hour while I was casting another 500 9/125 gr.Will post pictures later.

Yes, the tumbling method works best for me too. Very thin mix, first bullets in the bucket, then the mix and very small amount of it, then shake, then while the bullets are still wet, pour on the mesh.
Then dry and bake.
Then repeat this two more times.

[Frankv]

You got it.

[cbunt1]

Almost 1150 posts into this thread, and I’ve read every single one of them, and reread several. I’ve been watching this thread with much interest since the very beginning. It’s time for me to give back some of what I’ve gained. The initial timing of this thread was perfect—I had just started to play with the concept with a friend, but we really hadn’t gotten beyond sharing ideas over burritos and beer—always a pleasant and worthwhile endeavor, if not very productive.

I apologize for the length of this post—I’m not the most succinct writer, and I’ve been pretty quiet up to this point—so I’m afraid I have quite a bit to say here! :-D

As a bit of background, let me mention that I am what you might consider a “serious” hobby caster. I’m nowhere near commercial, but I’m currently casting about 1500-2000# of bullets a year. I’ve been lubing with Lars CR with great success, but have been looking for a lube product that is a little more acceptable indoors, and will produce less smoke than traditional lubed bullets.

I belong to an IDPA club, and a group of us has “co-oped” to reduce the costs of our components and materials. I cast a large number of the projectiles for the group, and we pool resources/needs to buy relatively large quantities of powder/primers etc. I only mention all of this to suggest the volume at which we shoot, cast, and load. As I say, I’m hardly “commercial,” but border on many of the needs and production techniques of a small commercial caster. I’m doing most of my work on a master caster, and up until now the lube process has been a bottleneck, even with a Star. I can’t justify the addition of collators for the casting side (although several of us do use bullet feeders on the loading presses).

I recently received a kit of the HI-TEK Supercoat from Donnie at Bayou Bullets, and received it this past Friday. Since then I’ve coated and baked around 3,000 bullets with very good results, and a slight learning curve. I’ll pass as much of this curve along as I can, and maybe help some of you off the fence on trying this process.

As with many things in the Boolit Casting world, I’ve discovered that while we can make it as technical as we want to, once you get the basics in place, there’s a lot of room for variance and huge margins of error that will still produce excellent results—provided you control most of the process. That is to say that you can’t be completely haphazard with the process, but it turns out not to be rocket science either—this stuff is very forgiving of mistakes, failure is obvious, and easily correctable.

Here are a few observations:
1) The HI-TEK itself is pretty forgiving of dilution. As long as the 5:1 ratio of coating material to catalyst is maintained, you can dilute a little more or less to your personal needs. I’ve had the best results so far with a two-application process at 5 parts Acetone, 5 parts coating, and 1 part catalyst. I did try 6:5:1 (additional Acetone) and I liked the viscosity, but found that it left bare edges of a 200gr H&G 68 .45 SWC, even after two coats. The third coat of the extra-thin mix made it a real headache to get through the sizer.

2) You can pre-mix your components and store them (sealed) for a few days with no ill results. I suspect 3-4 days is no problem, but from what I can tell much longer than that wouldn’t be good.

3) This stuff goes a long way. Using my 5:5:1 ratio, measuring by TEASPOONS, I was able to coat about 1500 135 grain 9mm bullets three times. I don’t think I really got enough on the second coat, so realistically, I think that amount would do just about 2000 of these bullets with a proper 2-coat process.

4) When agitating the bullets with the coating, you’ll “hear” the difference when they begin to stick. Once the sound changes (they start to stick together) it’s time to stop agitating and lay them out to dry. The tackiness goes away pretty quickly, and once they’re dried, you don’t have to rush to the oven with the bullets. I’ve tried a 2 day wait time with no ill-effects, and one the tackiness goes away (after about 10-15 minutes) they handle just like they did before you put anything on them. So far this has worked for me agitating by hand in a small bucket, and in large quantities in a cement mixer.

5) I haven’t had any issues with bullets “sticking” or “fusing” together in the oven, even when they’re piled more than one layer deep. The only issue with stacking them too deep is that the heat transfer may not make it to the core. I don’t recommend “piling” them into the oven, but they don’t tend to fuse together like the same pile did when I tried a traditional powder-coating (blown/sprayed on) process.

6) As soon as the bullets come out of the oven, I shake the pan to loosen them, and try them with a bit of acetone on a rag—if I get any blue streaks, I know they need a bit longer in the oven. I do this at the end of each cure cycle. Again, the “failure” here is obvious and correctable—if you get a blue mark, put them back in the oven for a couple of minutes.

7) Let them cool between coatings. If you don’t cool them long enough, it doesn’t hurt the coating, but it sure does flash the acetone fast, and dries too quickly. Should you manage to flash your coating and get the bullets “sticky” before the coating is distributed, you can just let them cool, add a tiny bit of coating, and shake again. Once again, obvious failure, and easy error correction.

8) When it comes time to size the finished product, lube them slightly, like you would cases in a progressive loader. I use Lee case lube mixed in 90% alcohol quite successfully. I use the Lee because it won’t foul powder down the road, it’s cheap, and I already have it around for my progressive loading. It doesn’t take very much at all, but I found that it’s easy to stick a bullet in a Star machine if you don’t have SOME lube in the process. I lube on a Star using Lathesmith dies, with the lube-pump arm disconnected—I’m final sizing only, and with just a mist of the alcohol/lee case lube, they slide through just fine. Without any lube, I have put enough pressure through the dies to leave a distinct indentation of my punch on the base of the boolit.


The Hi-Tek process, while not quite “foolproof” is certainly forgiving—especially to a tinkerer. I haven’t gotten it down to a science yet, and I’m still playing with “scaling,” but it seems to be more than viable at this point.

I haven’t had a chance to test the bullets I’ve made and coated yet (I will this Thursday evening) but I really don’t expect any issues. Several of us have been using the Bayou Bullets with great success for some time—which is one of the reasons I jumped on the bandwagon here—it’s a proven product in the marketplace, so any issues I do encounter are related to MY process, and not the product.

I’m still open to other coatings/products, but I can’t help thinking that first finding a working process with a known working product was best—again, to eliminate any questions of whether problems are due to the product applied, or the product application.

I hope my experiences and information help some of you. I can’t begin to pay back all the valuable information and years of collective experience I have access to in this forum, but I’d like to try to contribute SOMETHING!

[Ausglock]

Outstanding Post, cbunt1.
I have found a lot of similar things that you have.

Tonight I am going to removed all the lube from my RCBS LAM2, remove the bullet push up assembly and use the LAM2 as a push through sizer and see what happens.
My coated bullets are great, except for the 40 cals. But I'm working on it :)
This HI-TEK Supercoat is great stuff.
All the best from OZ, Mate.

[LongGun1]

Outstanding Post, cbunt1.
.

Fully agree!! :)

I am about to get started with casting in volume..

..waiting for my RCBS Pro-Melt & accessories to arrive later this week.

Since I will be running these boolits thru gas operated, (mostly) integral suppressed 300 Blk (subsonic & supersonic) for friends, family & myself. .

..this coating is basically a 'must have' for trouble-free operation...IMO!

Thanks for laying your proven methods out in such a way to be easily incorporated into a newbe's best practices!

[popper]

cbunt1 - by your numbers & ~$75/liter from Donnie, that's ~ $.10/100 for the coating, ~ 2000 x the cost of HF powder ($5/# / 2k CBs which is LOW), not amortizing the equipment cost. Not knocking it, just some numbers. So far we have the hi tek, piglet & standard ES application methods, TES has another possible one. Things we don't know are effective BHN, abrasion & COF for the various materials. Any data would be helpful but IMHO, we will use what works for each, bbl will be worn after 100K rounds anyway.

[cbunt1]

cbunt1 - by your numbers & ~$75/liter from Donnie, that's ~ $.10/100 for the coating, ~ 2000 x the cost of HF powder ($5/# & 2k CBs which is LOW), not amortizing the equipment cost. Not knocking it, just some numbers.

I don't remember what I paid for the HF Powder Coating I was playing with a while back, but I agree that the Powder Coat/Acetone technique is cheaper, and I'll certainly give it a shot in the future--just because I like options (and experimenting).

On the other hand, I'm guesstimating that coating bullets with the Hi-Tek puts my cost close enough to using Lars CR as to be insignificant -- to the tune of $.001504 per bullet for the CR lube vs. $.00176 for the Hi-Tek -- this is based on an average of 1250 bullets per stick at $1.88 per stick (accounts for shipping @ 1.65/stick and 24 sticks in a shipment). Truth is, I get many many more bullets from a stick than 1250 in some cases, and just a shade over 1000 for others (i.e. a 200 H&G 68 has a bigger lube groove than a 135 gr. 9mm RN -- and my old Kieth-style 158 gr. SWC molds have a lube groove that more resembles a trench.) Bullet sizing, surface area, lube groove differences and such make it difficult to quantify to such a fine level -- but suffice it to say that even if I coat way too thick, or waste wax lube, we're still talking about the smallest factor in production cost.

The ultimate savings (I think--time will tell) will come in the elimination of a bottleneck in sizing, since there will be no need to stop and change sticks in the Star, nor will "nose up/nose down" matter anymore for sizing--meaning I should be able to hook a Mr. Bullet Feeder directly to the Star with no tubes/flippers necessary.

Of course, Powder Coat, Hi-Tek, or any other dry film lube solves the above bottleneck, so it's a matter of availability and routine.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there are really no "wrong" answers once we arrive at a workable application process--and for indoor and action-pistol games, they're all a major advancement.

[cbunt1]

Fully agree!! :)



Thanks for laying your proven methods out in such a way to be easily incorporated into a newbe's best practices!

I'm glad I can help, but I can't take credit for "my" proven methods -- it's been a collective and collaborative effort, and I just leveraged the successes of others in the thread. Input from HI-TEK and swamprat were especially crucial to my getting where I am. I didn't bother telling about some of my train-wreck early experiments, like the time I fused about 50 SWC's together with powder coating in an ingot mold on a hot plate (I didn't have an oven yet to work with!)--only after covering a corner of my garage with fine red powder!

Which reminds me--I should edit my earlier post with this (later today?)...GET A RESPIRATOR. Acetone isn't good stuff, and you really don't want to bake yourself every time you bake a batch of boolits, nevermind the health concerns of messing with this kind of stuff regularly.

[bmiller]

I don't remember what I paid for the HF Powder Coating I was playing with a while back, but I agree that the Powder Coat/Acetone technique is cheaper, and I'll certainly give it a shot in the future--just because I like options (and experimenting).

On the other hand, I'm guesstimating that coating bullets with the Hi-Tek puts my cost close enough to using Lars CR as to be insignificant -- to the tune of $.001504 per bullet for the CR lube vs. $.00176 for the Hi-Tek -- this is based on an average of 1250 bullets per stick at $1.88 per stick (accounts for shipping @ 1.65/stick and 24 sticks in a shipment). Truth is, I get many many more bullets from a stick than 1250 in some cases, and just a shade over 1000 for others (i.e. a 200 H&G 68 has a bigger lube groove than a 135 gr. 9mm RN -- and my old Kieth-style 158 gr. SWC molds have a lube groove that more resembles a trench.) Bullet sizing, surface area, lube groove differences and such make it difficult to quantify to such a fine level -- but suffice it to say that even if I coat way too thick, or waste wax lube, we're still talking about the smallest factor in production cost.

The ultimate savings (I think--time will tell) will come in the elimination of a bottleneck in sizing, since there will be no need to stop and change sticks in the Star, nor will "nose up/nose down" matter anymore for sizing--meaning I should be able to hook a Mr. Bullet Feeder directly to the Star with no tubes/flippers necessary.

Of course, Powder Coat, Hi-Tek, or any other dry film lube solves the above bottleneck, so it's a matter of availability and routine.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there are really no "wrong" answers once we arrive at a workable application process--and for indoor and action-pistol games, they're all a major advancement.

I am probably going to stir a hornet's nest but, I eliminated the sizing bottleneck by not sizing. I run a Lee final size die in my 650. When I pull the bullets they are sized about .357. I have shot 20,000 in the last year using this method.

[seedeeze]

cbunt1 - by your numbers & ~$75/liter from Donnie, that's ~ $.10/100 for the coating, ~ 2000 x the cost of HF powder ($5/# / 2k CBs which is LOW), not amortizing the equipment cost. Not knocking it, just some numbers. So far we have the hi tek, piglet & standard ES application methods, TES has another possible one. Things we don't know are effective BHN, abrasion & COF for the various materials. Any data would be helpful but IMHO, we will use what works for each, bbl will be worn after 100K rounds anyway.

The initial cost is whats preventing me from diving into the hi-tek system, that and to some degree the commitment to one color of 24k-35k pills. If the the red-copper is close to what actual fmj looks then I can probably live with that. Can anyone post a pic of their red-copper coating?

[cbunt1]

I am probably going to stir a hornet's nest but, I eliminated the sizing bottleneck by not sizing. I run a Lee final size die in my 650. When I pull the bullets they are sized about .357. I have shot 20,000 in the last year using this method.

Nah, no hornet's nest with that. It works for you in your gun(s), and saves an extra step--That's what we're all after in the long run. I think the complaints we hear about the Lee Factory Crimp dies come into play where someone has determined they need an "oversize" bullet for a particular barrel, and the FCD swages the perfectly sized bullet below their intended target. Combine that with the potential for brass "spring-back" in the process, and it doesn't work for them.

I never had any issues in my guns with the FCD swaging my bullets down, but I did run into an XDM that threw tumblers with certain bullets I had run through the FCD--but it was a one-off case. My Beretta actually QUIT throwing tumblers w/lead when I started using the FCD and sizing the slugs to .356. In fact, it was chasing tumblers in that gun that got me into this DIY Boolit Casting in the first place!

[popper]

we're still talking about the smallest factor in production cost. Agree, but these numbers may help others decide what they want to do. Lubrisizer starts ~ $ 150 +. I stopped pre-sizing pistol, only save ~ 1/2 hr on a single stage & Lee push thru - no pre-lube to clean, die stays clean, no difference in accuracy. Got a lot of variants to try when I get to the rifle range, pistol works fine. I'm a hobbyist. Volume producers do care about $ and man/hrs.

[docmagnum357]

I have followed this thread and the other similar one fairly closely. Being somewhat cheap, I opted for the Piglet method. I bought some black Powder paint at Harbor freight, crossed the parking lot and went into the goodwill store and bought a $13 convection oven. I already had a cement mixer.

What I wound up with was taking a square cat litter bucket and replacing the mixer's drum with a rectangular 5 gallon cat liter bucket. I used two coats on my first small run of Lee 125 grain 2r 9mm bullets. I mixed three parts acetone to one part Powder. I tumbled in the mixer until the acetone flashed away. I got very even coverage. I baked, and coated again with a thicker coat. I haven't tried them yet, but they look good. the coating lived through sizing in a Lee push through .357 die. I have two 38 specials I am going to try these boolits in. I am going to get a .355 die and see what happens in my GLOCK 17 and my Cz 75 9mms. I have a Lee 200 grain SWC on backorder from Midway that mimics the H&G # 68 200 grain Semi Wad cutter.

I never gave two hoots about a dirty gun until I got started shooting USPSA matches. I lost several places in my last match because of ammo problems. From here it looks like reliability and cleanliness will be greatly improved.

[bmiller]

Pics?

[popper]

GET A RESPIRATOR. The acetone & MEK are listed as irritants, not toxic. You need a really good mask to filter the fumes.

[Ausglock]

The initial cost is whats preventing me from diving into the hi-tek system, that and to some degree the commitment to one color of 24k-35k pills. If the the red-copper is close to what actual fmj looks then I can probably live with that. Can anyone post a pic of their red-copper coating?

Here ya go.
73257

You can change the darkness of the coating by baking longer.

[piglet]

The acetone & MEK are listed as irritants, not toxic. You need a really good mask to filter the fumes.

Exactly. Long time ago we washes hands with acetone. After fixing fiberglass boats. Had no masks either.
And I am not dead yet. Maybe!

What about lead fumes while casting, sizing and shooting?

I am casting outside with the wind behind my back blowing from me towards the pot.

This acetone is just about nothing if You think of the lead and all those kids with three heads....:roll:

[Skip62]

Exactly. Long time ago we washes hands with acetone. After fixing fiberglass boats. Had no masks either.
And I am not dead yet. Maybe!

What about lead fumes while casting, sizing and shooting?

I am casting outside with the wind behind my back blowing from me towards the pot.

This acetone is just about nothing if You think of the lead and all those kids with three heads....:roll:

Nothing wrong with a little contact high....Muahahahahahaha

[cbunt1]

Nothing wrong with a little contact high....Muahahahahahaha

Riiight. That's why I mentioned the respirator. Just using the stuff in a bucket or some such will give you a headache. Using the stuff in a cement mixer will make the boolits blue, and you purple.

Imagine 3 grown men, two of us old enough to "know better" trying to devise a way to coat bullets (this was about a year and a half ago) absentmindedly looking into the mixer to see how the process was going, immediately looking at each other and saying "Damn I'm hungry...Taco Bell anyone?"

I don't think the Taco Bells in that area are used to grown men cruising through the drive-thru in a Volvo ordering 3 dozen tacos on a Tuesday night....Ahh the memories.

[gunoil]

hehehehehe!

[Ausglock]

Ha... Did someone say "munchies"

[Skip62]

BLAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ! ! :drinks: to the good old days

[popper]

OK guys. http://www.dow.com/productsafety/finder/acetone.htm And you will pay really big $$ for an efficient respirator. Now if you breathe enough to displace the O2 you should be breathing, you could turn blue, but the paper bag will probably fall off first.

[seedeeze]

Here ya go.
73257

You can change the darkness of the coating by baking longer.

Thanks T!

From the photo, it looks like it is too red, does it look somewhat like real copper in person?

I saw a website (http://www.hrbc.com.au/) that sells bullets there in Oz and they say they are using "HY TEK" coatings. From the image they have, it looks very close to real fmj, I wonder if their "HY TEK" is the same as our HI-TEK here, if so, I wonder which one hrbc is using for their "Copper Hawkes".

Here is one of their pics, but after color correction (white balance correction), it looks more like tarnished copper. Here is the corrected image:

73341

And the image from the website is attached here:

[cbunt1]

The red copper coating looks a lot like the old copper-coated (more like copper-washed) lead projectiles we used to find on Super-X .357 Mag bullets back in the late '70's and early '80's, before the "J-Word" projectiles became the standard for handguns...

[Ausglock]

The red/copper of HRBC copperhawks is very very close to the colour I'm getting.

The colour is not what I'd call "looks like jacketed".

Have a look at Topscore projectiles website.

http://www.topscore.com.au/

[redrockant]

Ok got the oven, got the the bullets cast, got the HI-TEK enroute, got the acetone and Trev just down the road.

Let the games begin!

[Ausglock]

I cast and coated some Lee 45 230RN TL tonight. Fantastic to cast and coats great. Cooked the first coat tonight and will cook the second tomorrow. Load them up and fire them on Sunday.
The Lee .357 and .358 sizer dies arrived today as well.

I find I'm casting Just to have something to coat. Can't get enough of the HI-TEK Supercoat.
Now for those that were asking about Rilfe load coated with HI-TEK Supercoat...

My Buddy has done some recent trials with a 303 was with 92:6:2 alloy, which was coated with the Dark Green coating he is using.

The bullet is a 165gr Bevel Base RN sized to 312 and used 10 grains of ADI powder 2205.
Fired 15 rounds, and chronographed it around 1900ft/sec.

He also tried the same alloyed/projectile, and sized same as above, but used 15 grains of powder instead.
Fired 25 rounds in same gun, and it was chronographed at 2300ft/sec.
Inspection of barrel only had gun powder residue as a deposit in both cases, which wiped out with a pull though cloth type cleaner.

Accuracy at 100 Yards was 1.28" (measured) from a sand bag rest for 5 shots of the 10 grains powder load.
The 15 Gr powder load grouped a tad tighter at 1.26" at 100 yards.
I asked if He has tried it in a 223, But he hasn't got one.

[bmiller]

That would be great to ditch the gas check! Nice job!

[Jumbopanda]

Trevor, how many 30 caliber rifle bullets would you say you could coat with 1 Liter of HI-TEK?

[Ausglock]

My Buddy thinks that he should be able to get about between 30 to 35 thousand...yes thousand per litre.
I know that Topscore Projectiles gets about 40 thousand per litre of 9mm 125gr Conicals.

[Jumbopanda]

My Buddy thinks that he should be able to get about between 30 to 35 thousand...yes thousand per litre.
I know that Topscore Projectiles gets about 40 thousand per litre of 9mm 125gr Conicals.

Interesting. Do you know if there will there be any issues with long term storage? I got some Moly Resin (spray on firearms finish) a while back and found that it supposedly expired within a couple of years. Being able to coat 30k with a liter is great, but pointless if it doesn't have a long shelf life since I can't shoot that much in a short amount of time. :grin:

[Ausglock]

I believe it will store fine if kept in original containers in a cool place.

I store mine in a small refridgerator in my shed. I give it an hour or so to come to room temp before decanting and mixing. The mixed coating has been stored for over a week at room temp in sealed bottle with no issues. Just shake the hell out of it before use.

[Ausglock]

Yeah, Baby. Coat away. It is so bloody easy. We should have been doing this years ago rather than pissing around with sticky lube.

[Garyshome]

Need to try that floor polish stuff. Alox leads too much!

[seedeeze]

Need to try that floor polish stuff. Alox leads too much!

I've used LsStuff's pre-mixed 45-45-10 (http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=31) and it works great.

Although I'm not sure this thread is where you intended to reply to.

[Ausglock]

Need to try that floor polish stuff. Alox leads too much!

G'day. Once you try the HI-TEK Supercoat, you will wonder why you ever used conventional lube.

All my lube sticks are now only used to flux my melts. The lubesizers are packed away, never to see the light of day again.

[cbunt1]

G'day. Once you try the HI-TEK Supercoat, you will wonder why you ever used conventional lube.

All my lube sticks are now only used to flux my melts. The lubesizers are packed away, never to see the light of day again.

You're right about that...I've been chasing the "holy grail" in bullet lube since I started casting. And now I've found it!!!

I still have folks who prefer traditional lubed bullets, so I can't put everything away just yet--but it did get me to thinking...I know how to settle the debate about whether smoke comes from the bullet base or the lube once and for all. Since we know these coated bullets only smoke from the powder--same as a J-word--running a few through the sizer and putting the wax-lube on them would tell a tale--any large clouds of smoke would HAVE to come from the lube in this case...it'll be a few weeks before I try it, but I'll let you know what I find...maybe I'll even get some video!

I think I already know the answer--but I love testing conventional wisdom. Heck, if we weren't testing conventional wisdom, we wouldn't be coating bullets with paint products and powder coatings, or even diluting powder coat in liquid solvents...and we wouldn't be where we are right now!

[TES]

I like Cbunt1!

[Skip62]

^^^^^^ Very INTERESTED in this test ^^^^^^^^

:popcorn:

[gunoil]

Alox smells terrible. Paint is paint. powder coat is a pain. Some smart person invented Hi-Tek supercoat. I dont try to reinvent the wheel. Just like Star is the best lubesizer. Supercoat is where it is rite now. It is what it is. Pay-up sucker!

Ya cant loose, if ya cant use it, sell it on the forum.

[TES]

Alox smells terrible. Paint is paint. powder coat is a pain. Some smart person invented Hi-Tek supercoat. I dont try to reinvent the wheel. Just like Star is the best lubesizer. Supercoat is where it is rite now. It is what it is. Pay-up sucker!

Ya cant loose, if ya cant use it, sell it on the forum.

Hitek I think he wants compensation for his post!


Pay-up sucker!

[HI-TEK]

Hitek I think he wants compensation for his post!

Thanks for all the support and good faith.
Yes I believe that compensations may be in order, and to oblige, I am hoping to compensate all, by ensuring availability of the coating at significantly lower prices, not running out of local stock, so every one can enjoy their hobby, and use it, without straining the budget.
I am happy to assist, and reply promptly, especially if contact is made via a private enquiry.
HI-TEK

[piglet]

Thanks for all the support and good faith....

HI-TEK
Well, good faith or not, I still do not believe in this "Supercoat 3200 ft/s, no leading and without GC"!

And it always seems to be somebodys "buddy" who has done the testing, ....

Why would You lower the price if the "Supercoat" really is so superior?
Is the reason this almost free and good enough Harbor Freight PC/acetone- thing or what?

[Ausglock]

Piglet, Mate.
What is your problem?
My Buddy (Grant) is a Western action Shooter here in NSW Australia. He shoots 310 Martini cadets and 303 SMLE rifles with Cast bullets. He has been doing it for years. He used to use Lyman Lube on his cast rifle bullets. he also tried the White label Lube and got good results with them using Gas checks. But, He tried a few Supercoated bullets and loved it. He has since converted to only using Super coated Bullets in all his rifles that he casts for. And I have seen his targets and his barrel after firing. He does Not own a .22 centerfire rifle. He has a Win 458Mag and a Ruger 270Win that also runs Supercoated bullets with no issues. And he does not need Gas checks any more. I do not run cast bullets in my rifles. My 25-06 and 308 only run Sierra JHP bullets.

The Au Dollar was high against the US dollar, So buying in the US cost more. Now the US dollar is higher than the AU dollar so buying into the US is cheaper. I don't know what Bayou pays for the coating or how much they order. But in my business (Hardwood Flooring), If I buy in large quantities, then I get a cost saving and a cut if freight rates as well. I assume this is the case with the HI-TEK Supercoat being shipped to the US.

What does it matter to you if the cost of the (Superior...Your word) Supercoat comes down in cost? At the end of the day, The DIY caster who chooses to use the Supercoat will be saving money. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to use the stuff.

If you and others are getting the results you want with the PC/acetone coating, Then Good luck with it. I hope you continue to has good results with accurate loads and clean barrels.
For the life of me, I don't see why you have such a bug up your **** about the HI-TEK Supercoat. HI-TEK came on this forum to offer his input about the coating he makes and to enlighten we cast bullet addicts. Some started asking for him to spill his guts about what was in it and how he made it. He declined to elaborate. So some started belittling him.

His coating has been in commercial use here in Australia for over 20 years. As I stated in a previous post, 100s of thousands of Supercoated bullets get fired in Australia every weekend by Sporting Shooters. If that doesn't speak for the quality of the coating, nothing does.

I have cast for over 15 years, Lubed with Jake's lube, White label, Lyman, Rooster Red etc etc. These load were only for practice. My competition ammo is always loaded with Topscore Projectiles Supercoated bullets. When I saw HI-TEK's post on here, I pestered him constantly about getting some Supercoat to try. He would not sell it in Australia to DIY casters, Only to the USA. I finally convinced him that I was no threat to his commercial customers, and Bought a litre of Coating.
Since then, All my casting, coating and results (Good and Bad) have been posted on this forum.
I have been inundated with PM and emails from people in the US asking for tips on how to use the HI-TEK Supercoat. I gladly offer my findings as we are all brothers of the silver stream. I am in no way associated with HI-TEK or his business. I pay my money the same as everyone else.

So. Piglet You seem to be having a "Sour Grapes" type of issue.
Why, I don't know.
Anyone would think you owned a Powder coating powder company or something. :grin:
Mate, Relax and enjoy your casting coating and shooting. If you don't want to use Supercoat, don't.
Remember... Not everything good comes from the USA.
Take Kangaroos, Drop bears, Emus and HI-TEK's Supercoat....:-D
Lighten up.

[Wal']

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :goodpost:

Thanks Ausglock about time someone said it ............. we've been using this stuff down here for over twenty years, both pistol & rifle & all the naysayers are still jumping on it & asking for proof.

Isn't twenty years of use proof enough, if anyone buys commercial boolits here in Australia, they're all coated with the Hi-Teks formula, no one can buy any commercial conventional lubed boolits here & haven't for many years.

There's only us home casters using soft lube & now that Hi-Tek's hardcast lube is being made available locally in smaller affordable quantities, that's about to change forever!

[piglet]

.. if anyone buys commercial boolits here in Australia, they're all coated with the Hi-Teks formula, ...


Sure!

How about for example Westcastings Premium Grade Projectiles?

http://www.rpgfirearms.com.au/WESTCASTINGS.htm

The owner writes:

"As the owner of Westcasting Projectiles Australia I would like to set the record straight. Firstly all our coatings are a proprietary product made by us for our exclusive use, we do not sell our coating to any other companies/users. We have never used auto paints or any other type of paint as a bullet coating. We have been in business for 30yrs and have been producing coated projectiles for over 20yrs. While many Australian companies appear to produce a similar product we can state that our coating is unique to us and is made in house.

... we have found some of the coating being offered here in Australia have been found by us to be of questionable quality and suitability for the purpose of bullet coating. Many of these coatings do appear to be nothing more than industrial paints produced by people with no experiences in the firearms and reloading industry. "

[HI-TEK]

Well, good faith or not, I still do not believe in this "Supercoat 3200 ft/s, no leading and without GC"!

And it always seems to be somebodys "buddy" who has done the testing, ....

Why would You lower the price if the "Supercoat" really is so superior?
Is the reason this almost free and good enough Harbor Freight PC/acetone- thing or what?

Piglet, thank you for your post.
I have read many and understood your blogs, but am puzzled.

It seems, that you are totally avoiding and ignoring numerous facts.
1. Test results you constantly refer to, use of the coating at 3200ft/sec, was not something I invented.
2. Results, (3200ft/sec, as I have stated very clearly, and many times), was provided by an ex customer, and a commercial manufacturer, who has never been my "buddy", and, aside from being my customer, we were never any more than business associates.
3. Your disbelief of such results, is not with me, or with the coating, however with tester and the supplier of such data.
Why aren't you challenging the supplier of that data about such results, and, it would be useful, if you could explain your reasoning, why such results cannot be accomplished to enable you to continuously dwell on such matter?
4. You seem to totally ignore commercial companies who for years manufacture and sell (non-coated) alloys to shooters to be used at 3100ft/sec. Why are you not attacking their claims?
5. If the coatings were not working, nor had been found unsatisfactory, why has the demand escalated in such a manner, and, after all "doubting sceptics" who did not believe the claims, eventually had to concede the usefulness and are buyers of the coating?
6. It seems, that you had totally ignored independent posting, where coated alloys were used successfully, where non-coated -alloys were unable to be used previously, and without gas checks.

In terms of your beliefs, I offer following replies,
1. You alleged a design and manufacturing process, where you claim resounding success, with use of powder coating paints. If I remember correctly, you were voted as inventor of the year by some members.
2. Aside from all of us taking your words for success, and claiming low costs in manufacture, I have seen no provisions of any long term proof, that the finished product in fact had performed at all.
3. Since your joining this blog site, in May 2013, aside from your claims, no one can provide a long term history or satisfactory use of your alleged invention, and no one can provide any information as to what happens to peoples guns after using such a coating as you now promote.
4. I have seen no criticisms made, by any one, who took your alleged invention as a hobbyist benefiting technique as being gospel.
5. I have not seen any one, questioning your alleged invention, and, people in fact had tried to reproduce results you had published. Some had success and some none at all.

I also applauded your idea, however I did have some reservations about limited application use, due to the properties produced by powder coatings either applied as powder or as from a solution.

In reference my results being posted by my buddies, I am afraid you are sadly mistaken.
If you are referring to tests being posted by Ausglock, until recently, I have never met or communicated with that person.
From what I understand, Ausglock has used the coated projectiles for many years, but he was unaware of me directly as he was never my customer, friend or associate.
Your inferences about "friends reports" is certainly misguided.

In further reply, in terms of your reference about "buddies" reporting test results, why have you not asked all the manufacturers, here in Australia, NZ, South Africa, USA, if any one had any complaints about the coating, and why, many people, here and overseas, whom I do not know, nor had any communications with, had posted glowing reports, and are absolutely not interested in powder coatings wet or dry.

Once you have done such survey, it would be more constructive for you to publish the actual and independent facts.

In terms of your allegations of lowering prices and questioning why I would do that if my product was superior, and you raise concerns about my price reductions.
To clarify things so you may understand, and I also provide following information, so everyone can understand actual facts, and not accept your allegations,

1. Prices in Australia had been stable over many years, and in last 18 months, prices had in fact dropped for several reasons.
Since you only joined this blog site May of this year you cannot provide any substantiations to support your stance.
Posting your alleged invention, after your joining this blog site in May, price reductions for coatings occurring in previous 18 months,you now cannot associate your powder coating invention as being cause for such event.
I think that you are assuming a little too much credit if you think you had been responsible for coating price reductions.
2. Because of small volume being exported, export costs were extremely high.
2, As volumes and demand increased for export, it directly had significant affects to reduce costs.
3. Local costs, were stable for about 15 years, and no one had made a complaint about coating being expensive.
4. As demand here and overseas increased, it allowed us to secure much better prices for raw materials, and, such reductions in manufacturing costs were immediately passed on to our customers, and especially the ones that were large volume buyers.

Despite my costs being reduced, I had no intentions in price gouging my customers, and, over the last 18 months, I advised price reductions.
Again, in reference to your implied matter, my price being lowered, as a result of your powder coating release, is totally misplaced and misleading assumption.
It really does not affect me nor the coating prices, if you produce your methology and products for free.

The rationale used, is that despite your method being even 10 times cheaper to coat alloy,
I would like you to explain, why no one in a commercial set up, over the last 20 years, has adopted such method that you allege as being your invention as a successful venture?
I am almost 100% certain that there has been many throughout the world, that was very capable and technically proficient of using a suitable material, if it was available.

In summary, I really do not understand, your deliberate and relentless attacks, on me, and the coatings, that was introduced to all users?
I do not know how and why you joined this blog in May of this year.

I was in fact, invited by numerous persons to join this blog site, so I can specifically and directly answer all constructively asked questions to all whom wanted information about the coatings and on other technical matters.
Since your joining, It seems to me, and has to many others, I have had nothing but a continued a personal vendetta of criticism being conducted by you , and it is not understood why that is?

I would like to invite you, to elaborate and explain to all parties, what is the reasons for your concentrated agenda & specific activities, since your joining this forum, that has been specifically directed against me and the coatings since your joining?
I really would like these matters to be finalised, so people can get on, comment without harassment.

[HI-TEK]

Sure!

How about for example Westcastings Premium Grade Projectiles?

http://www.rpgfirearms.com.au/WESTCASTINGS.htm

The owner writes:

"As the owner of Westcasting Projectiles Australia I would like to set the record straight. Firstly all our coatings are a proprietary product made by us for our exclusive use, we do not sell our coating to any other companies/users. We have never used auto paints or any other type of paint as a bullet coating. We have been in business for 30yrs and have been producing coated projectiles for over 20yrs. While many Australian companies appear to produce a similar product we can state that our coating is unique to us and is made in house.

... we have found some of the coating being offered here in Australia have been found by us to be of questionable quality and suitability for the purpose of bullet coating. Many of these coatings do appear to be nothing more than industrial paints produced by people with no experiences in the firearms and reloading industry. "


Thanks for your post on Westcastings.

I advise you, please do not open this can of worms, it is not to your, not Westcastings interests.

What will arise is nothing but conflict, if I chose to provide various matters in reply to your part attached incomplete blog.

I did reply to this posting by Westcastings, and in extensive detail, and you specifically did not add my reply that was attached WHY?????

[Jumbopanda]

Can't we all just get along?

[Ausglock]

Piglet.
Why do you keep dredging up the Westcastings blurb?

Of all the coated bullets for sale in Australia, Westcastings is the worst. Frommy experience, they lead really bad. I know of nobody shooting IPSC open division on this side of the country that will use Westacstings in their open guns due to the fact that the compensators are full of lead after a few 100 rounds. Other manufacturers bullets work fine. Topscore, Vindicators, Bullet factory, Spartan Projectiles, Ray Gray etc etc. All coated with HI-TEK Supercoat. I think Hawksbury River Bullet Company make their own coating. I and others have had issues with their coating rubbing off on your fingers when reloading. I haven't used their product since. They may have fixed their issue.

So I wouldn't go holding Westcastings up as a beacon of perfection.

[Ausglock]

Can't we all just get along?

Yeah. I agree.
Piglet seems to have an ax to grind for some reason..

[bmiller]

Hi-tek, I hope you have a huge supply of raw materials secured. I am in the backwoods of western Pennsylvania, and I see more and more Bayou bullets at small local matches. Once people try them, it is hard to spend the extra for plated or jacketed bullets to shoot IDPA or IPSC. I have been getting great results with the hi-tek method. It is an easy process to use. I am not saying the piglet method will not work, to be honest I am rather intrigued by it, but I have not been able to generate satisfactory results. Maybe I am missing something.

[N4AUD]

I too would really like to read more about the Hi Tek coating without pig let's attacks. I'm a new member who has been lurking, and I would like to know more without all the static.

[HI-TEK]

Hi-tek, I hope you have a huge supply of raw materials secured. I am in the backwoods of western Pennsylvania, and I see more and more Bayou bullets at small local matches. Once people try them, it is hard to spend the extra for plated or jacketed bullets to shoot IDPA or IPSC. I have been getting great results with the hi-tek method. It is an easy process to use. I am not saying the piglet method will not work, to be honest I am rather intrigued by it, but I have not been able to generate satisfactory results. Maybe I am missing something.

Hi,
Thanks for your blog.
I appreciate your support.
I have started to gear up with production over 12 months ago, as initial coatings sold into USA was sold out within very short time.
As shipping is only way to transport this stuff, with 10-12 weeks to get product there, I have had numerous increases in demand and orders, after many had very successfully used coated alloys made in the USA.
Demand has increased alarmingly and quickly.
I have hopefully taken enough steps to ensure that I can meet all demands with supply and as required.
There is a fairly large stock now in US, and another very large order under way, with another to follow a month later.
I hope, that this ensures that I meet demand required there.
There are several large ammo companies who are testing coated alloy specifically for rifle use.
They are testing many tens of thousands to be sure of all results.
So far all is well, no complaints, and this area of use is also increasing in demand.
I may just have to move to USA, it is the only answer to cut down availability and shipping costs and will make product very affordable.
Keep blogging,
HI-TEK

[Ausglock]

An update on the ongoing 40 cal Saga.
I have cast some Lee 401 175gr FP bullets from 92,6,2 alloy. This is certified alloy from a commercial smelter. They have been coated with 2 coats of Supecoat and sized to .401 with a Lee pushthrough sizer die. The coating looks good. I pulled 2 rounds and inspected the pulled bullets, The coating is intact and looks good.

I will be shooting these in my Glock 35. 2 Mates are also going to shoot them in their Para 40 cal and an STI Edge in 40cal. I'm interested to see how these rounds go in barrels with conventional rifling.
Also going to fire 200 45ACP rounds. The Lee 452 230gr RN TL bullet is a sweet bullet to cast and coat. they fall easy from the mold and are easy to push through the sizer die.

200 rounds should be a good test for the bullet and the coating.

Later, I'm going to cast some Lee .356 125gr RN 2R from 92,6,2 and coat and size to .357 for use in my SVI 1911 race gun. She has a 4 port comp with 2 popple holes. My current load runs at 168 Power factor and shoots sweet. I'm confident that there will be no lead in the comp ports.

Thanks.

[gunoil]

I too would really like to read more about the Hi Tek coating without pig let's attacks. I'm a new member who has been lurking, and I would like to know more without all the static.

ditto: piglet u sound like a 14 year old and embrassing! At least try to act like a business man.

[piglet]

ditto: piglet u sound like a 14 year old and embrassing! At least try to act like a business man.

Sorry, but I am not a businessman. Neither am I 14 but it might be nice if I were.

HiTek writes that I have told that I have invented this PC-acetone method.
That is not true, I have used it, yes, but I am certain that somebody else has also mixed PC with something earlier, and I have never said that I have invented it or invented anything else either.

Neither have I said that HiTek coating is bad or something like that. I just do not believe in that 3200 ft/s thing.

I have said that this PC/acetone method is good enough for me. No leading, easy to use and almost free too.

But people use what they want to use, also people believe in what they want to believe in.

So I am using PC and acetone and I am happy with it.

If somebody is using HiTek, so that is completely OK with me, since I am not selling anything.

And now it might be easier to find too, the latest who has imported this HiTek coating seems to be Omj Gunworks, Missouri.

[Gateway Bullets]

And now it might be easier to find too, the latest who has imported this HiTek coating seems to be Omj Gunworks, Missouri.

Thanks for the advertisement Piglet! The OMJ GunWorks is my gun business and I cast and produce under the label of Gateway Bullets. I am currently selling cast bullets and once fired brass.

HI-TEK has been wonderful to work with and his product is top notch!

I have only had one problem to date. Some how one of those Australian Drop Bears managed to get into my shipment and now we have a breeding population here in the states! We found one of them hanging from the Arch not that long ago! Lol

[piglet]

Thanks for the advertisement Piglet! The OMJ GunWorks is my gun business and I cast and produce under the label of Gateway Bullets. I am currently selling cast bullets and once fired brass.


Good luck! With those 100 litres You might coat more than three million bullets!

[Ausglock]

G'day Gateway Bullets.

Drop Bears are very dangerous....
73662

[Gateway Bullets]

G'day Mate, I've have my drop bear hat all ready to go! Lol 73694

[HI-TEK]

Good luck! With those 100 litres You might coat more than three million bullets!

Not a bad start with trial quantity.
I believe that much more is well under way, if not already there. More is arriving with regular shipments, so US customers who were asking for supply should be happy, as there should be no shortages like with other ammo related stuff.
Larger shipment volumes have made coating very economical for supply.

[HI-TEK]

G'day Mate, I've have my drop bear hat all ready to go! Lol 73694

It looks like a fearful monster, please don't release it here,
It already has a camouflage hat on and we will think it is a local ...lol.

[Gateway Bullets]

I put the hat on it and for some unknown reason it started to hang upside down! Lol

[Ausglock]

G'day All.
Well. Back from the range.

I sized some 9mm bullets to .357 and fired them in the Kimber 38 Super. I must say, what a difference .001" makes. The same bullet sized .356 was good. no leading and good accuracy. But sized to .357 and they rocked! clean barrel and even better accuracy off a rest at 25 yards. This Kimber loves .357. so this is what I will be sizing too from now on.

The 45 ACP loads were fired as fast as I could squeeze the trigger and load mags. My mate was filling mags as I fired them. 200 rounds later and the gun was as clean as a whistle and the barrel was shiny bright. My mate fired another 100 through his Colt series 70 and his gun was clean too. Accuracy was great.

The 40 S&W loads had mixed results still.
The 92,6,2 alloy with 2 coats still leaded the factory Glock barrel, But when fired in my Mates Para 40 his barrel was shiny bright with zero leading. We were tapping a 6" steel plate at 25 yards with every shot standing freestyle.

I have a few Topscore 40 bullets that I am going to do a hardness test on and also check for sized Dia. I must be doing something wrong as I can fire the Topscore coated bullets in the Glock Factory barrel with no leading at all.

So. I am still a happy camper. The 9mm and the 45 bullets are now good to go. The 40 is still a work in progress.
I have given some coated bullets to some clubmates today to load and try in their guns. I need feedback as to how these bullets work in guns other than mine.
Happy Coating to all. no matter what your poison.

[Ausglock]

I just came down from the shed and thought I'd do an update.
The commercial cast 40 cal bullets from Topscore Projectiles, were tested with the Lee hardness Tester and found to be 14.3BHN.
My 92,6,2 alloy bullets that leaded today in the Glock were tested and found to be exactly the same 14.3BHN.

2 more bullets (one mine the other Topscore) were smashed tested and both showed the same quality of coating adhesion.

Measuring the dia of the bullets found mine were .4015 where the Topscore were.4025.

This .001 difference in Dia is the only thing that I can find that is different bewteen the 2 productions. The Topscore bullets fire fine with no leading at all.

Now... where do I find a .402 Lee sizer die???

[Jumbopanda]

I just came down from the shed and thought I'd do an update.
The commercial cast 40 cal bullets from Topscore Projectiles, were tested with the Lee hardness Tester and found to be 14.3BHN.
My 92,6,2 alloy bullets that leaded today in the Glock were tested and found to be exactly the same 14.3BHN.

2 more bullets (one mine the other Topscore) were smashed tested and both showed the same quality of coating adhesion.

Measuring the dia of the bullets found mine were .4015 where the Topscore were.4025.

This .001 difference in Dia is the only thing that I can find that is different bewteen the 2 productions. The Topscore bullets fire fine with no leading at all.

Now... where do I find a .402 Lee sizer die???

Hah. Guess you just proved what they say about bullet-to-bore fit and leading.

[prickett]

Now... where do I find a .402 Lee sizer die???

Lee will do that kind of work for you for very reasonable rates. Buy another .401 and ask them to open it up to .402.

[popper]

73746
Get one of these and do it yourself, working slowly , oil the diamond stone. Or soften your alloy, less Sb, cut 50/50 with pure.

[Skip62]

Hey popper, ignorant newby here, what am I looking at?

Thanks

[badgeredd]

Hey guys, here is a new twist on coating bullets!

http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/new-ammo-cancels-free-ticket-to-paradise/

Who is gonna be the first on the block to figure this process out?

Edd

[Ausglock]

Lee will do that kind of work for you for very reasonable rates. Buy another .401 and ask them to open it up to .402.

Thanks, Prickett.
I'll flick them an email.

Also considering just buying a Lonewolf 40 barrel with conventional rifling. for $175 it is cheap.

[prickett]

Thanks, Prickett.
I'll flick them an email.

Also considering just buying a Lonewolf 40 barrel with conventional rifling. for $175 it is cheap.

$175 is about 3 liters of HI-TEK! (aka a lifetime supply)

[popper]

Diamond coated 3/4 round sharpening stick. Oil it roll Lee sizer on a flat surface or pant leg. Doesn't take much time at all.

[Whizzer]

I got a sample bag Thursday in the mail of 125 grain round nose 9mm pills sized to .355 as a promo. (Thanks Donnie!) These were NOT coated by me, but arrived pre coated with Hi-Tek Supercoat, Green.

My diminutive Kahr PM9 leads, so I was anxious to try these, even though sized a little small for this sub-compact auto. I loaded 4.7 grains of Unique, and headed to the farm this evening, after it cooled down a bit outside. It likes a stout load, for proper functioning.

Well I was pleasantly surprised that there was no leading. The POI (Point Of Impact) was waaay low, but this weapon is meant for "Social Work" up close and personal, and I have no plans for competition. I don't concealed carry with Cast Boolits, because of some articles I've read about possible legal ramifications, should I EVER...have to defend myself or someone in my care.

I'm probably going call tomorrow and check Hi-Tek stock. I've been very reluctant to order the kit, but Donnie @ Bayou Bullets now has my full attention.

[Ausglock]

I just realised that I am using a Lee FCD die at the last station on my press for the 40S&W.

You can feel the FCD squeezing the finished rounds. Maybe this die is squeezing the bullet to below .401.
I am going to load some and then pull the bullet and check the Dia.

Ya never know....

[Ausglock]

Diamond coated 3/4 round sharpening stick. Oil it roll Lee sizer on a flat surface or pant leg. Doesn't take much time at all.

Thanks, Popper.
If it comes to it, I might give this a try.

[popper]

Break out the Carbide ring or get a real pistol seating die.

[prickett]

I just realised that I am using a Lee FCD die at the last station on my press for the 40S&W.

You can feel the FCD squeezing the finished rounds. Maybe this die is squeezing the bullet to below .401.
I am going to load some and then pull the bullet and check the Dia.

Ya never know....

That might be the problem. I removed my FCD for my 9mm loads and it definitely helped. Nothing like over sizing your boolets (mine by .002"), only to have them squeezed down by the FCD.

[Whizzer]

So if you remove the Lee Factory Crimp Die (which I REALLY like...) how do you apply the proper crimp? I'm sure you know better than I, that the 9MM "head spaces" from the neck and the proper fit can be a potential problem. I've never actually had any that wouldn't drop in the chamber freely, so maybe I'm overthinking this....

[Ausglock]

G'day All.
Yes. the FCD appears to be the problem. made 3 dummy rounds last night. measured the bullets before loading all .401.
loaded and crimped 2 as per normal and 1 was seated but not crimped.
you could feel the carbide ring in the FCD squeezing the rounds as they went through.

These 2 were pulled with a hammer bullet puller. it only took 1 tap for the bullets to exit the cases.
These bullets were re-measured and found to be .399

The 1 that was not crimped was also pulled. it took 5 good hits of the puller hammer to unseat the bullet. this bullet was measured at .401.

So I think the FCD will get the flick. I have ordered a Dillon Crimp die that does not have the carbide ring.

I could have knocked the carbide ring out of the die, but I use this die to bulge bust my 40 cases in an O frame press.

Cast and coated a few 1000 45 bullets last night. The ejector on my Para GI Expert has to be changed out as it is an extended ejector and rounds loaded with the Lee 230gr RN TL will not eject out the port. Have ordered a stock length one from Brownells.

Also loaded a few 100 Lee 125gr RN in 38 Supercomp for my Racegun. these are running at 1350fps to make major powerfactor. It will be a good trial for the home coating. Commercial Supercoated bullets (Topscore Projectiles) run fine with no leading or lead buildup in the comp ports.

Thanks.

[Skip62]

Diamond coated 3/4 round sharpening stick. Oil it roll Lee sizer on a flat surface or pant leg. Doesn't take much time at all.

Thank you Sir

[prickett]

So if you remove the Lee Factory Crimp Die (which I REALLY like...) how do you apply the proper crimp? I'm sure you know better than I, that the 9MM "head spaces" from the neck and the proper fit can be a potential problem. I've never actually had any that wouldn't drop in the chamber freely, so maybe I'm overthinking this....

I too like(d) the FCD, but it was undoing my oversized boolets (I size to .358"). I now use a light taper crimp. Since stopping using the FCD, my rounds don't drop freely into my "no-go" gauge, but I've not experienced any F2F in my actual pistols.

[Whizzer]

I guess with FMJ or other J-words the factory crimp die shouldn't be an problem. But with our particular hobby, I could see how the factory crimp die *might* be an issue. I just hadn't thought of it that way. I'll pull some boolits and measure them.

[DrBill33]

Try Harbor Freight for Powder ccoating. Looks interesting.

[TES]

Try Harbor Freight for Powder ccoating. Looks interesting.

HF PC is not great material. If you are going the PC route at least get a good quality PC from anyone else. PC has two advantages Its cheap and you get colors. But it has no background and is not going to work like you want it to. It is not the same thing as HT coating. It is just a coating. In fact if you want two pounds of it Ill send it if you pay shipping.

[Whizzer]

HF PC is not great material. If you are going the PC route at least get a good quality PC from anyone else. PC has two advantages Its cheap and you get colors. But it has no background and is not going to work like you want it to. It is not the same thing as HT coating. It is just a coating. In fact if you want two pounds of it Ill send it if you pay shipping.

I (FINALLY!!) ordered a liter of the red copper from Bayou Bullets. Having had no real experience with any of this stuff, I fired a few of Donnie's 9mm pills in green and got no leading despite the fact that they were undersized for the particular gun I used for testing.

I was a hard sell....following this thread and others for many weeks. I'm not saying that powder coating in general is a bad idea, or that Piglet's trick doesn't interest me. It does.

I just became a believer MOSTLY due to my own range trial yesterday. That, and I've finally read enough good reviews to spring for "the good stuff" and not try the powder coating at this time. We'll see how my own coating techniques develop...with bullets sized for my own rigs.

TES, I've read your posts on another thread, and it seems (to me anyhow) you gave Powder Coating a fair and honest trial, and for that I thank you! I'm glad it didn't cost you an arm and a leg, or a single penny for me.

Stan

[bstone5]

I ordered a liter of the Gold coating from Bayou Bullets.

This weekend I coated 2000 cast bullets in 9 mm - 95 grain for loading 380 ammo.

I first tried cooking the coated bullets for only 10 minutes, acetone would remove the coating indicating the coating had not been cooked enough.

I went back to the temperature and time I use for curing powder coat and all was fine 18 minutes at 400 degrees, this includes heating the lead bullets and the stainless steel plate with non stick aluminum foil. I stacked the bullets on their base while cooking similar to the method used for powder coating. I put the bullets close together so more could be cooked at one time.
The plate was full of bullets, they were almost touching, this might be the reason for the first cooking failure since there is a large mass of metal to bring up to temperature.

It took 8 sessions of cooking to put two coats on the 2000 bullets.

The coating passed the smash test and the acetone wipe test.

I used 40 ml of the paint to coat the 2000 bullets. I mixed 5 parts coating to 5 parts acetone to 1 part catalyst.

I used a small measuring device I got at the drug store for giving medicine to children, the small tube holds 10 ml when completely full.

I put two coats on the bullets but looking at the first coat there might be enough coating on the bullets with only one coat.

The gold seemed to coat very well.

I will try the coating on some bullets for an AR-15 in 223 the next time. some friends who shot 3 Gun are trying to make cast lead bullets work in an AR-15.

I do not have a mold for the Magma Master Caster in 223 and will need to cast these bullets by hand.

The Hi-Tech coating application is relatively easy, much the same as curing powder coat, it just takes the time to add the second coat.

I used a Lee push trough sizer for sizing and the bullets went through easily with a small amount of Imperial Sizing Wax.

I will load some for a shot test.

[leadman]

I think the plate might be a problem for you. Donnie recommends, and I use the 1/4" hardware cloth on the oven racks. I used tag wire to hold the cloth (1/4" wire mesh) to the racks. Don't worry about the orentation of the bullets. Just dump them out and lay them in one layer. I cook mine for 10 minutes at 375 degrees (confirmed with oven gauge) and they won't wipe off with acetone of split or peel when flattened.

I have one rack that sets in a plate for the toaster oven, had to drill a series of large holes in it so the bullets would cook right. You need air flow all around the bullets.

[Ausglock]

Good results.
I have refined my process a bit.
I mix 5 colour to 6 acetone to 1 catalyst.
I cook at 195Deg C for 10 minutes. Better to be too hot than too cool.

When you first coat, leave to dry for 1/2 hour and then warm with a hair dryer to that the bullets are just warm to the touch. Then Cook.
I just use perforated Stainless plate with 1/4" holes for trays.
Let cool then recoat and do the same as above.

The first coat should only just give a light colour to the lead bullets. you should be thinking to yourself "can I see colour or not? " If you think you might be able to, then that is enough. The first coat must be thin. That is why the 5,6,1 mix works best for me with the red/copper coating.
You are all doing very good.
remember the acetone wipe with a white cloth after cooking and the smash test. it is far better to loose a few with smashing than to remelt...Ask me how I know...... :-)

[N4AUD]

I am very, very interested in the .223 results! If it works satisfactorily, that will be great news for those of us who shoot that caliber a lot.

[Frankv]

Piglet
This puts the temperature issue to rest and silicone is a lubricant.
HIGH TEMPERATURE BRUSHED BRONZE (600F - 1200 F) ~ SPECIALTY SILICONE BASED POWDER COATING FOR HIGH TEMPERATURE APPLICATIONS

• CURE SCHEDULE = 450F/20 MIN @ PART METAL TEMPERATURE
• GLOSS LEVEL = < 35% ON 60 DEGREE METER
• RECOMMENDED MIL THICKNESS = 1.0 – 2.5 MILS
• SPECIFIC GRAVITY = 2.00
• THEORETICAL COVERAGE = 45.0 SQ. FT.
• SALT SPRAY RESULTS = 1,000+ HOURS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/POWDER-COATING-PAINT-HIGH-TEMP-MUFFLER-SILVER-1LB-45KG-/390415169798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae68eb906

[Frankv]

http://forrestpaint.com/stove-bright/manufacturer-area/stove-bright-high-temp-powder-coating/

[TES]

Frankv...what is this stuff?

[Frankv]

It's a silicone based Powder coat. Because it is silicone based it has a higher working Temp than traditional epoxy polymer powder coat and a lowed coefficient of friction.In our application I think the silicone will aid in bullet lubrication.
Will probably apply with the Piglet method just fine.
I have ordered some to try.

[bstone5]

Frankv

I have purchased a lot of powder coating material from Powder Buy The Pound, I powder coat a lot of things beside bullets.

Let us know how the Silicone dissolves with acetone, this might work good with the Piglet method if the material will dissolve.

[Frankv]

Silicone has a lower coefficient of friction than polymer. This should give better FPS,we'll see when I get it.

[Ausglock]

I'd be interested to see what happens. Silicone is derived from Sand. and Sand is a very good abrasive.

[abqcaster]

I'd be interested to see what happens. Silicone is derived from Sand. and Sand is a very good abrasive.

Ausglock, What????? Silicon is a component of sand molecules as in SiO2. Pure silicon, Si is also crystalline and used in electronics manufacture. SiliCONEs are a family of organic polymers consisting of silicon and carbon (not SiO2). Their properties are myriad and are dictated by the ratios of silicon to carbon and various functional groups. Making a comparison like yours is a real leap. It's comparing apples and well.... space rocks...

[abqcaster]

Piglet
This puts the temperature issue to rest and silicone is a lubricant.
HIGH TEMPERATURE BRUSHED BRONZE (600F - 1200 F) ~ SPECIALTY SILICONE BASED POWDER COATING FOR HIGH TEMPERATURE APPLICATIONS

• CURE SCHEDULE = 450F/20 MIN @ PART METAL TEMPERATURE
• GLOSS LEVEL = < 35% ON 60 DEGREE METER
• RECOMMENDED MIL THICKNESS = 1.0 – 2.5 MILS
• SPECIFIC GRAVITY = 2.00
• THEORETICAL COVERAGE = 45.0 SQ. FT.
• SALT SPRAY RESULTS = 1,000+ HOURS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/POWDER-COATING-PAINT-HIGH-TEMP-MUFFLER-SILVER-1LB-45KG-/390415169798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae68eb906

Thanks Frankv! the silver color is a nice "stealthy" application.

[Ausglock]

Ausglock, What????? Silicon is a component of sand molecules as in SiO2. Pure silicon, Si is also crystalline and used in electronics manufacture. SiliCONEs are a family of organic polymers consisting of silicon and carbon (not SiO2). Their properties are myriad and are dictated by the ratios of silicon to carbon and various functional groups. Making a comparison like yours is a real leap. It's comparing apples and well.... space rocks...

I stand corrected..... :-)

[high standard 40]

I am considering the coating available from Bayou Bullets and I have a question. The method use to cure the coating is very similar to the heat treating method used to increase BH of COWW as described by Glen Fryxell and Rick Kelter. When heat treating bullets they're left in a 425 degree oven for and hour and then quenched in water. This yields a much more consistent BH than water dropping straight from the mold.

So the question is, if I desire a higher BH and at the same time use the coating, can the coated bullets be quenched in water when the are removed from the oven? Is the coating sufficiently cured to survive the water quenching?

[Frankv]

Ausglock-That's like saying that charcoal has the same characteristics as the wood that burned to make it.
Silicone is derived by a chemical process from silicon and other elements,it possesses it own characteristics which are nothing like silicon.
I don't want to get lengthy so here you can read all about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone
Upon further investigation the hardness of the generic silicone powders are about 4H
ABQ- I'm trying the Bronze