lead bullets coated with polymer paint

[FLDad]

The only real downer about this whole thing may be the need to bake the powder coat. Harbor Freight has the gun for seventy-five bucks, but the oven is another thing entirely. Still, less smoke + higher velocity + no leading at all + no sticky bullets sounds like it is worth trying, even if I have to let somebody else have the fun of casting them. Then again, they do look like little lipstick cases...

[Hang Fire]

Is my understanding for the heat required, most any toaster type oven will suffice.

[ScorpioMk]

Most people I know that do powdercoating at home find free/cheap ovens on craigslist.

[finishman2000]

i've even used my heat lamp (for paint) on powder coating. it worked.

[harley45]

This is interesting, we have a harbor freight just down the road, may have to check it out!

[randyrat]

You need about 400 degs F. to powder coat/ bake or cure the powder..Very nice stuff. Try coating the base with a super thin coat of carnauba wax...One problem with wax coating is , conductivity is needed to adhere the powder.
Flaking or chipping with power coating is a sure sign of lack of cleaning before coating.

[Hang Fire]

I just started into the kitchen to check heat range on the Wife's large toaster oven, but smelled pizza baking in it, so changed my mind. (;>)

[SlowSmokeN]

Ya I looked at the wife's oven and thought twice. I think I will look for a cheap one to keep on the side of the house.

Has anyone shot a couple hundred rounds through to see how it affected the barrel if sized like a lead boolit.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have fired thousands of the commercial polymer coated bullets with zip problem. I don't know how you would go with the powder coated ones though.

[SlowSmokeN]

I have fired thousands of the commercial polymer coated bullets with zip problem. I don't know how you would go with the powder coated ones though.

That is what I would like to find out. How does the powder coat affect the barrel. Been watching this tread but it doesn't seem anyone has shot excessive rounds of powder coat.

[leftiye]

Snot the same thang? I was about to run out and buy a powder coat gun and etc.. Anybody have any idea what happens with hot loads?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Originally Posted by Four Fingers of Death
I have fired thousands of the commercial polymer coated bullets with zip problem. I don't know how you would go with the powder coated ones though.

That is what I would like to find out. How does the powder coat affect the barrel. Been watching this tread but it doesn't seem anyone has shot excessive rounds of powder coat.

The bullets I have fired were coated with the proper polymer coating applied by professional bullet manafacturers. I don't know how the powder coated ones would go. I iimagine they would be alright. The polymer coated bullets don't seem to make an impression on the barrel at all.

[Silver-Silver]

I have fired thousands of the commercial polymer coated bullets with zip problem. I don't know how you would go with the powder coated ones though.

I think some companies do in fact use powder coating. But I could be wrong. It doesn't appear that they all use powder coating.

I bought a quart of 28A from Sandstrom to try coating bullets. It was the smallest amount available that wasn't a spray can. It will coat way more bullets than I need done. They say 1 quart should cover 125 square feet at the recommended thickness. I plan to size after the coating dries.

Has anyone gotten a liter of polymer coating from Australia? I am very interested in the price if there is a small group buy.
-Steve

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think some companies do in fact use powder coating. But I could be wrong. It doesn't appear that they all use powder coating.

I bought a quart of 28A from Sandstrom to try coating bullets. It was the smallest amount available that wasn't a spray can. It will coat way more bullets than I need done. They say 1 quart should cover 125 square feet at the recommended thickness. I plan to size after the coating dries.

Has anyone gotten a liter of polymer coating from Australia? I am very interested in the price if there is a small group buy.
-Steve

Commercial bullet makers need to coat the whole bullet and all here that offer coated bullets use the tumble method as it is the only way of coating it all. Coated bullets no doubt work ok, as milsup bullets have had lead exposed bases for yonks. It would not attract buyers however I'm thinking.

The lubricity of powder coating is an unknown (well to me it is anyway), not slippery enough under great stress and heat and it may not operate as desired. Short of shooting them until the barrel wears out, I can't think of how you would work that out either.

You may find spraying lightly into a quantity of tumbling bullets until the desired coat is achieved and then turning them out before cooking may work. That way, they would be fully coated. If it didn't work they can go back into the pot, just keep away from it while the smelly smoke comes off.

[beex215]

i might trey this. posting so i can find it

[Silver-Silver]

Commercial bullet makers need to coat the whole bullet
It has been shown earlier that not all commercial companies coat the whole bullet. I agree that it would be easier and faster to do many at a time in a tumbler like you mention. But the finish is definitely different.

There are some pictures below that show a coating that is very different from the coating you posted. Have you found out the cost of the coating you can get ahold of? It is definitely the coating I would like to test out after hearing your excelent results.



The lubricity of powder coating is an unknown (well to me it is anyway), not slippery enough under great stress and heat and it may not operate as desired.
This was also adressed earlie by 357maximum. He said it looked the same to him when he powder coated his boolits, and said the sizer actually made the paint feel slipperier.

I think there is 2 main ways to coat bullets, a tumbler like you mention and regular powder coat.

I will post my results with the 28A from Sandstrom later. There are definitely some improvements I would like to make on my next batch.
-Steve

[Four Fingers of Death]

I wasn't poo-pooing the powder coating, just felt that consumers wouldn't find bullets that were not coated on the bottom as 'professional' enough looking.

Cleaning them, lining them up and spraying the bullets (not to mention cleaning the gun, etc), then cooking them sounds a lot more work than just lubesizing boolits to me.

Be a neat experiment though.

[Silver-Silver]

Four Fingers of Death, I agree with you. Powdercoating seems to be more work. I used some of the Sandstrom 28A this weekend and I got the coating on to thick.

I used a tumble process of pouring the bullets in and then pouring in the 28A. I need more agitatiors in the tumbler because boolits seemed to just want to slide around and not tumble. After tumbling for hours the coating seemed dry and I added a bit of Carnuba Wax from randyrat. This gave the bullets a slight amout of sheen over the flat black coating. The coating does cover every side of the bullet, but it doesn't have the same even coat that the Australian coating has. I know it is a different coating all together, but I think I need to mimick the process that four fingers of death has talked about previously...Coat, dry, coat, dry, coat and then final dry.

As a side note, I use a Star Sizer and you can go unbelievably fast when sizing

Picture is of coated and sized boolit and normal boolit with lube in the grove for color comparison.

[totallycustom]

This is really interesting.

I definitely think that tumbling is the way to go. I think part of the appeal to me is less work and un-sticky bullets and the ability to run them faster without a gas-check.

My only concern is getting the bullets smooth in the tumbler while drying. I guess I will have to try this out.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Four Fingers of Death, I agree with you. Powdercoating seems to be more work. I used some of the Sandstrom 28A this weekend and I got the coating on to thick.

I used a tumble process of pouring the bullets in and then pouring in the 28A. I need more agitatiors in the tumbler because boolits seemed to just want to slide around and not tumble. After tumbling for hours the coating seemed dry and I added a bit of Carnuba Wax from randyrat. This gave the bullets a slight amout of sheen over the flat black coating. The coating does cover every side of the bullet, but it doesn't have the same even coat that the Australian coating has. I know it is a different coating all together, but I think I need to mimick the process that four fingers of death has talked about previously...Coat, dry, coat, dry, coat and then final dry.

As a side note, I use a Star Sizer and you can go unbelievably fast when sizing

Picture is of coated and sized boolit and normal boolit with lube in the grove for color comparison.

The method I described previously was coat while being tumbled, tip out dry, heat in an oven, coat while tumbling, etc and a final heat session.

The reason target shooters here developed them was to cut down on smoke, a big problem during morning shoots in winter.

I have twenty guests coming up from the BMW Touring Club (motorcycle) for a campfire and camp out on Saturday night and a shoot (none of them are shooters) on Sunday mornign before they ride home in the early afternoon. They will probably put a couple of ten round mags through my 92FS each and I won't be worrying about cleaning because it will be squeaky clean at the end of it.

[leftiye]

SS If the Sandstrom 28 a is the same as the old boolit master, then you could roll them in it on a can lid. More work, but it used to work well for me. Let us know how those shoot. I used to size them and heat treat them before Bullet Master, and then lube them too. For red eyed maniac loads.

[1845greyhounds]

I think some companies do in fact use powder coating. But I could be wrong. It doesn't appear that they all use powder coating.

I bought a quart of 28A from Sandstrom to try coating bullets. It was the smallest amount available that wasn't a spray can. It will coat way more bullets than I need done. They say 1 quart should cover 125 square feet at the recommended thickness. I plan to size after the coating dries.

Has anyone gotten a liter of polymer coating from Australia? I am very interested in the price if there is a small group buy.
-Steve

How much did the Sandstrom 28A cost and where did you buy it?

[Silver-Silver]

How much did the Sandstrom 28A cost and where did you buy it?

I bought 28a from Sandstorm - Phone Number 1-800-747-1084
28a is best when air dried 18 hours not force cured and at 1/2 mil thickness it will coat 500 sq ft. per gallon. I covered in 1 coat, but next time I am going to use multiple coats using the tumble while drying method. I don't know if a thumblers tumbler would work, because the ends are sealed, the coating may never dry. I purchased a quart, and it will cover lots and lots of bullets. The problem I ran into is it costs lots compared to regular beeswax based lube. It doesn't save any time because it still needs to be sized. The star sizer can go really fast when not lubing and the bullets are coated. I was going at about 1500 rounds/hour, and could have gone faster if I had a bullet collator.

Overall, I will use up everything I have, I estimate it will cover 10,000 rounds using the coating thickness I used which was to thick. So as an estimate 15K rounds as an estimate using the correct thickness. I will definitely be using the coating method again. I am interested in the coating out of Oz. The main reason is there is no lead handling when loading bullets, and they should work in a bullet collator mounted on a progressive press.

Keep this thread alive with your results. If the other big countries are using coated bullets, and the benefits are as great as people say. This is something I am interested in.
-Wildcat

[bgokk]

subscribe to this thread

[torpedoman]

Why would this make a difference for shooting them from a Glock?

yea the glock will KA_BOOM anyway

[Four Fingers of Death]

One thing that I mentioned earlier (well I think I mentioned it) is that the guy that makes the Aussie coating is developing a super coat for high velocity bullets, to enable full high velocity jacketed equivalent performance for rifles. He said it was not much different to his normal stuff, but he wanted to get it 100% right before marketing it. That might change the game a little.

[leftiye]

Wildcat. Are you shooting those Sandstrom coated boolits without further lubricant? What kind of loads are you using that on? And any range results/ accuracy results yet?

[Silver-Silver]

I am using the coating on 9mm handgun as that is my most used "toy"

Lee Round Nose Flat Point 125 grain 1 lube grove which goes unused
Sandstorm 28A coating then sized to .357 on star sizer (my gun barrel slugs .356)
4.5 grains Unique and CCI small pistol primer.

I am not at my bench so memory says 1100 to 1200 fps muzzle velocity. I do lots of plinking and IDPA style so accuracy was not checked as much as others would. So I can't comment on benefits or downsides there.

No leading at all and no other lube used besides the coating. I wanted to get into the coated bullets because I should be able to use a Mr Bulletfeeder collator with it and not gum up the bullet feed dies. And loading ammo or going to the range and not having to touch lead would be a nice benefit also.

[1845greyhounds]

Wildcatbrass, how hard are your bullets pre-coating or what's your lead formula and heat treat? Does the rifling penetrate the coating (all the way to the core) when shot? I ask because I have lots and lots of soft range lead and very little hard lead. I'm wondering if the Sandstrom 28A will enable the use of this lead as-is (shot ~900 fps in a Glock). I plan to cautiously try, but was curious about your experience.

[Silver-Silver]

Wildcatbrass, how hard are your bullets pre-coating or what's your lead formula and heat treat? Does the rifling penetrate the coating (all the way to the core) when shot?

To tell you the truth, I have been a little busy lately and trying to use up my regular boolits when I do get a chance to shoot. The couple hundred rounds I have shot did not lead the barrel.

I actually made these boolits way softer than my regular. These are 98% lead and 2% antimony. I let them air cool, and I am not fancy enough yet to heat treat. As I said these are fun plinking rounds, standing offhand, I know I am the weak link in the formula. I will try to use a rest some day to know for sure.

I haven't recovered a boolit so I don't know how the rifling affects the coating.

As a crude test I used the "Hammer Test" to see how they would react.

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii592/WildcatCartridge/Sandstorm%2028a/DSCN2384.jpg

They held up very well and the ends that were smashed between cement and the hammer are still covered as it seemed to push the coating into the lead. The sides that buldged out are still covered and didn't crack or flake off. The coating just streched as we would want it to.

-Wildcat

[ScorpioMk]

Still in for group buy of aussie paint if someone wants to set it up. Interested to see how it compares to other stuff you guys are trying.

[Silver-Silver]

Still in for group buy of aussie paint if someone wants to set it up. Interested to see how it compares to other stuff you guys are trying.

I think it is a little more than a group buy we are waiting on. The problem is the exporting of chemicals from one country to another. However whenever this is figured out, count me in also.

-Wildcat

[ScorpioMk]

Bump, anyone try anything else or have any more success?

[Shooter6]

Looking at this thread and going to try pro-tec. Has any one tried and shot. I have been trying to get a lead slug to shoot out of my 1187 20 gauge rem. It seems the long throat is a problem that causes leading. After about a doz. shots the accuracy is gone and I have to delead the barrel. I have a custom mold but after measuring the bullet it is 1 1/4" before the slug contacts the rifling, so even with a 3" shell this is a long jump. If the pro-tec would add about .007 to the .620 sized slug this would work to solve both problems. leading and the long jump. My idea is to coat the bottom and
sides and leave the top bare.

[Silver-Silver]

Bump, anyone try anything else or have any more success?

Well I have shot a couple hundred rounds of the 9mm coated in Sandstorm and I don't have any leading in the barrel, I still haven't been able to recover one, but after the "hammer test" I am confident it would still be covered. This is shaping up to be a nice way to use a progressive press with cast boolits not gumming up a Kiss Bulletfeeder. A large batch of 45 is next up. I just need to put an order for a sizing die from Lathesmith.


Looking at this thread and going to try pro-tec

Good, I am glad someone else is sepping in and trying this out.

-Wildcat

[FLDad]

Thanks for continuing to report, Wildcat. Been following this thread for a while and your results suggest that you are on the right track. No leading plus less barrel wear plus cast boolit cost with no lube issues sounds like the Holy Grail! Sizing dies may need to be custom but certainly do-able. Very exciting work!

[parrott1969]

I just finished coating my second batch of "black bullets". The process is pretty simple. I heated the bullets slightly, maybe 100 degree's and then dropped them into a container and then threw them into the tumbler for 1/2 hour. Then it was off to the oven for a 10 minute bake. I am going to size them next weekend. Hopefully, I will have a range report also.

[ScorpioMk]

Pictures! Post pics of anything that you've coated.

[Silver-Silver]

Sizing dies may need to be custom but certainly do-able. Very exciting work!

I am using the same sizing die as I do for normal lubed boolits. The diameter of my barrel didn't change, so I wanted the new boolit to fit the same.

[parrott1969]

OK, here are my pics. Maybe not. it will not let me post says that they are too big.

[Silver-Silver]

OK, here are my pics. Maybe not. it will not let me post says that they are too big.

I got so excited to see someone elses work, and then very dissapointed.:kidding:

If you e-mail them to me I can size them down and post them. You have my e-mail address from the purchase I made from you.

By the way, I like your method of painting better than my method of put them in the tumbler and add paint until it is coated. Next batch I am going to try your way.

[Silver-Silver]

Parrott sent these to me... and I must say, his look to have a more even coat than the ones I did.

Parrott can you post up all the details, because I am definitely going to try this your way. Also some of your pictures were blurry so I didn't post them.

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii592/WildcatCartridge/Sandstorm%2028a/CoatedBoolits1.jpg

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii592/WildcatCartridge/Sandstorm%2028a/CoatedBoolits2.jpg

[parrott1969]

It was really simple. I place the bullets on a metal tray and quickly warmed them with my torch. They might have been 100 degrees. I had a small plastic jar that I had poured a small amount of powder coat into so I dropped them into it. Swirled them around for a couple of seconds and then dropped them into my jumbo tumbler for about a half hour. While they were doing their thing I lined the metal pan with wax paper. When I took them out of the tumbler, I used a set of industrial tweezers and lightly tapped off the excess. Then placed them on the wax paper. After that it was into the oven at 350 degrees for 10 minutes. If you look at the picks you will see a brownish looking substance. That is burnt wax paper. The powder coat fused to it. It doesnt seem to hurt anything and it kept the bullets
from sticking to the pan. Be warned that for the first 5 minutes it smokes like a son of a gun.
In the future I plan on increasing the number of bullets in the container from 42 to 150. My wife and I both seem to think that this will give a more even coating.

I noticed that you paid a handsome sum for your powder coat. I paid $14 delivered (1 pound) for what I used. It claims a chip point of 1/16th of an inch which should be more than enough for what we are doing. Also, in the first batch some of the bullets were not covered in black but they did have a coating on them. This substance is really hard as I had to have a knife to remove a little of it.

[parrott1969]

Steve, how are you sizing your bullets? I am thinking of using a Lee push thru, opinions?

[Silver-Silver]

Parrott
we are using different coatings. I am using a liquid moly based "paint" are you are using a powder. I really want to start doing this in large batches and that is why I went away from the powder process. I thought you were doing the sandstorm method.

I have a question for the way you do it though.
Do you think it is necessary to tumble? Could you heat to around 100 deg F and then place directly in powder, tap of the extra and place on wax paper? You would skip the tumbling process I have never powder coated so I am just asking. Or how about this, add powder to a tumbler but don't turn on, heat all your boolits and then pour into the tumbler, place the lid on and tumble for 10 minutes. I am thinking the slightly elevated boolit temperature would make the powder adhere to the surface so when you remove the boolit to bake, it has the correct thickness evenly coated.

This does it, I am buying a Lb of Powder I have too many theories and want to experiment a bit.

[Silver-Silver]

Steve, how are you sizing your bullets? I am thinking of using a Lee push thru, opinions?

I use a Star Lube sizer with the Lube mechanism dis-connected which basicly turns it into a lee push through sizer. I have a boolit feeder on the star so it is much faster than loading 1 at a time. It is soooo easy to push the handle because of the reduced friction of the coating.

[parrott1969]

Wildcat, how are you applying you "paint"?
Yes you could heat and the tap but that takes way too much time. I am of the mind set that by using the powder I can quickly heat with a torch ( one or two quick passes) tumble for an extended time and let the powder impact plate the bullets. Then dump them onto a screen and give it a few shakes to remove the excess. Just have to figure out if I can cure the coating with the bullets laying down.
The 42 I did last night took up about 4-5 full minutes of my time. A batch of 150 would be about the same.

[Silver-Silver]

Wildcat, how are you applying you "paint"?


I have a rotary tumbler I made to do cleaning of brass. I just poured in the bullets and poured in some liquid paint. I had to add a bit more paint once I saw they werent all covered, but I think I added a bit to much so they came out a bit thicker than they should. The paint smells so I had to move the tumbler out of the shop. It really smells. I let the tumbler run and run until they were dry to the touch I dumped them on a sheet and let them dry for another 24 hours. I sized the next day.

Besides the tumbling time and sizing I have very little time invested. But for the person trying to save time this doesn't work because I still had to size, which takes the same amount of time as lube sizing in a star. I have never used a Lee push through sizer so I can't comment on how well it would work, but from what I understand it should work just fine.

[Silver-Silver]

Just have to figure out if I can cure the coating with the bullets laying down.

If this works then it would really be a time saver. No need to stand them up. Just pour into the tumbler, then onto a screen, from there to a cookie sheet and bake. Another benefit to doing this is they would be fully coated, and cheaper than any commericially available coating for bullets. I think you would be around the same cost as DIY boolit lube.

-Wildcat

[Shooter6]

I am thinking that if you coated a sheet of alum. for the second heating and placed them on for baking in the oven that might stop the sticking to the wax paper??

[parrott1969]

Steve, have you thought about air brushing the paint on?

[Rick459]

here are some .45acp bullets that i sprayed with some Krylon plastic fussion paint. the can says that it takes 7 days to cure and then will be chip proof. so i will have to wait the 7 before i can reload these and test fire them. when i do i will post back here. my test batch are 15 bullets.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture349.jpg

[Hang Fire]

Those look interesting, hope results are good.

[Rangefinder]

Rick---I THINK I SEE A HOLLOW POINT HIDING IN THE FAR RIGHT!! Now, what part of the test is that going to cover? :D

Curious how this is going to work out.

[Rick459]

Rick---I THINK I SEE A HOLLOW POINT HIDING IN THE FAR RIGHT!! Now, what part of the test is that going to cover? :D

Curious how this is going to work out.

yes that is a hollow point on the right side that was run through my CH4D 101 swaging die. i make hollow points from my RCBS 225 grn. RN mold. theywork very well in all my 19111's. hopefully this experiment will work. stay tuned, more to follow.
Rick

[2wheelDuke]

I'm watching this thread with great interest. I'm starting to consider trying some coatings on my Lee 230gr TC boolits. I'm not sure about using the H&K as a guinea pig, but I'm willing to try it out in my Glock 21 with a stock barrel.

[parrott1969]

Wildcat, can you shoot me the contact info for sandstorm28?

[Longwood]

I bet the hollow point bullets could be sprayed bases up if the bullets were on little pins.

[2wheelDuke]

Wildcat, can you shoot me the contact info for sandstorm28?

http://www.sandstromproducts.com/gun-coating-bullet-coating.html


224 Main Street
Port Byron, IL 61275

toll free. 1.800.747.1084
tel. 309.523.2121
fax. 309.523.3912
mark@sandstromproducts.com

[Silver-Silver]

Steve, have you thought about air brushing the paint on?

Sandstorm does have a rattle can for sale with Sandstorm 28a inside. I didn't use a spray gun because I HATE cleaning the spray guns. I have a good quality spray gun and have painted a few cars, but it just isn't fun when you have to clean the spray gun.


Wildcat, can you shoot me the contact info for sandstorm28?

Yes, no problem in case anyone else here wants it here is a few of my notes from talking to them.

Sandstorm Products
224 Main Street
Port Bryon, IL 61275

Phone - 1-800-747-1084

I told the person who ansered I was interested in the bullet coating and I got transfered to a very knowledgeable woman. I asked question after question she answered them all. After I knew everything I wanted to know I said could you transfer me to purchasing department I will purchase a quart, she said she is a jack of all trades and could get it sent over.

I think it was just under $15 shipping on top of the quart of Sandstorm 28a


Sorry 2wheelduke beat me to it... I didn't realize it until after I typed it.

[wrinkles]

So $15 was shipping only. What was the cost for the quart of Sandstorm 28a?

[Four Fingers of Death]

Good to deal with someone that knows their oats, wildcat!

[Shooter6]

I got the protec yesterday and coated 9 bullets with black. As said before it is hard to get a consistant and light coat. I have a dig. temp. gauge to keep the bullet at a consistant temp. for dipping and curing and I am using a heat gun to do both. It seems a very light temp. on the bullet of about 80 deg. to dip is right and about 250 to cure. I see no smoke and I am getting about .004 on the best and lightest coating. I drilled a small hole in the platt on the 20 gauge slugs and inserted a eye hook to suspend while coating and curing and drying. As soon as I get about 6 done to my liking I will shoot and see how it goes. I am also looking at an air fluid rig to coat. You can buy the set up from ebay for about $50 or $60, but make your own for less than $20. I Googled and found a vidio that explains what is needed and how to make one for jigs.

[1845greyhounds]

The Sandstrom 28a cost is ~$39/qt or ~$140/gallon.

[wrinkles]

The Sandstrom 28a cost is ~$39/qt or ~$140/gallon.

Thanks.

[Silver-Silver]

The Sandstrom 28a cost is ~$39/qt or ~$140/gallon.

Thanks for telling the price, in all of my notes, I forgot to write what the paint actually cost. Also it is available in a spray can if anyone only wants to try it out. It would be a much cheaper way to see the benefits of coated bullets.

[parrott1969]

My test were an amazing success. I recovered 8 bullets. Four of which passed completely through a stump and were laying on top of the ground. Total fired was 100. One mag in rapid fire, the other mag dumps were pretty fast. No leading at all, even on bullets that had a coat so thin that there was no color. The recoverd bullets retained some on the coating. Retention ranged from 15% to 25%. I say thats pretty good for a bullet that was traveling around 1100 FPS and passed through solid wood. Next on the list is my 30-30 and 45-70.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My test were an amazing success. I recovered 8 bullets. Four of which passed completely through a stump and were laying on top of the ground. Total fired was 100. One mag in rapid fire, the other mag dumps were pretty fast. No leading at all, even on bullets that had a coat so thin that there was no color. The recoverd bullets retained some on the coating. Retention ranged from 15% to 25%. I say thats pretty good for a bullet that was traveling around 1100 FPS and passed through solid wood. Next on the list is my 30-30 and 45-70.

Thats why they sell like crazy out here. Hard to buy non coated bullets now unless you make a special order.

[Lead Fred]

$44 a can

http://www.bottompaintstore.com/silver-bullet-friction-reducing-coating-p-9483.html

http://www.bottompaintstore.com/images/SilverBullet2009.gif

[Silver-Silver]

$44 a can
http://www.bottompaintstore.com/silver-bullet-friction-reducing-coating-p-9483.html


Fred,
Nice, that is taking me back to my sailing regatta days. Prepping the hull before the long races.

I am curious on how the suspended zinc in the boat hull paint would affect the barrel. It would be interesting to try. It even has a catchy name with a bullet on the can. Just so it is clear though, the paint listed by Fred is supposed to be used on boat hulls to stop growth of algae and other stuff that would slow down boats.

[FLDad]

Has anybody tried curing the poly powder-coat with infrared lamps? Seems like it would work, and a lot cheaper than buying another oven. And if Rick459's experiment works out, it could be simpler still: spray, let cure for a week, load! This is getting very, very interesting.

[Silver-Silver]

for dipping and curing and I am using a heat gun to do both.

Shooter6 is using a heat gun to do the curing on powder coat. 350-450 degrees is pretty warm for infra red heat lamps. I am sure it could be done if they are close enough to the surface of the boolits.

Why not look into a toaster oven? It is what I plan on using once my powder gets here. They are cheap on amazon. I bet you would spend more on lamps, holders and wiring than using a toaster oven from Amazon.

As always buy at your own risk and I have no affiliation with the company...
http://www.amazon.com/Proctor-Silex-slice-Toaster-White/dp/B002FYGTPY/ref=sr_1_20?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1334526977&sr=1-20
$25.00 and free shipping. That will be hard to beat

With enough people trying different things. We WILL figure out the best/cheapest way to coat boolits.

[Four Fingers of Death]

$44 a can

http://www.bottompaintstore.com/silver-bullet-friction-reducing-coating-p-9483.html

http://www.bottompaintstore.com/images/SilverBullet2009.gif

HaHa! We had a beer which came in a silver coloured can, it was called silver bullets.

[Shooter6]

The trick to using the heat gun is to monitor the temp. because I am using a 500 grain bullet I can heat it up to a little more than 90 to dip. I wait until it returns to 80 knowing the core temp. and not just the exterior is about 80 or a little more. You have to rotate the slug over the heat gun to get a even temp. then after I dip the bullet into the protec I slowly remove and tap off the excess. Then I turn upside down and heat to about 250 from the top. I don't dip the top. I drill the tip and screw a small eye hook into it to hold while curing. I then push a tooth pick through the hole and suspend over a bottle to cool down. I feel this does a good job to cure and it slowly cools. I am using a .616 slug 515 grains with out lube groves that seems to come out great and shoots to about a 6" group the first shooting. I don't know how you could do what I am for a pistol bullet. I going out today to try some more loaded bullets and still putting together the components for building a fluid coating rig.
One other thing. Be careful what kind of plastic you shoot in a gun for a coating. PVC plastic has a nasty habit of giving off a bad gas that will corrode metal. One of the shooters on the savage board makes a CNC sabot out of PVC to shoot a .338 rifle bullet out of a 50 cal and he cleans right after he shoots to keep the bore pristine

[FLDad]

The toaster oven suggestion is brilliant. That pretty much clinches it: I will try this out soon. Both the hot-dipping and powder gun methods have advantages, but the dip method keeps the investment to a minimum so it makes sense as a starting point. Then maybe one of the liquid paints for comparison... it's almost like our hobbies have hobbies!

Now for the big question: what color first?

[Shooter6]

I have done my second shooting session and I am pleased with the results. I now have a plastic coated bullet the shoots as good as the more expensive sabots in my gun and no leading. I do want to try some of the Sandstrom to compare and will probably get some sooner or later. would like to split up a Qt. with some one in the future. Any on from western Mass. want to try?? Next step is to build the fluid coater for a more consistent coating.

[wrinkles]

While all these powder coat experiments are great they are not practical if you are going to shoot lots of rounds. Individually dipping each bullet in powder coat then individually setting them on a sheet with wax paper in order to bake, all the while using tweezer, is too much hassle.

I like the idea of tumbling them to apply the paint until they are dry.

[Shooter6]

I am going to order some 9mm and .357 or 38's from bayou bullet next week if they will ship to Mass.
I am going to make a prediction that lubing lead bullets is on the way out. As soon as coated bullets become available from larger manufacturing I can not see any one using a lubed bullet or very little.
The price is very competitive with what lubed I can buy now and feel it will go down more eventually.

[Four Fingers of Death]

While all these powder coat experiments are great they are not practical if you are going to shoot lots of rounds. Individually dipping each bullet in powder coat then individually setting them on a sheet with wax paper in order to bake, all the while using tweezer, is too much hassle.

I like the idea of tumbling them to apply the paint until they are dry.

The bullet coaters in Australia all tumble the boolits and pour in the liquid 'paint/coating.'

All of the tumblers I have seen so far were cement mixers. they tip them out on a belt or surface to dry.

The only area where they are a spot of trouble is with black powder because the lube won't stick to them. Most of the guys I know who aren't dedicated BP shooters, use coated boolits for the occasional BP shoot that they attend, but just put a cardboard wad and a dob of lube or a lube cookie under the bullet.

[Orochimaru]

A couple of quick notes about powder coating, as it is something I have some experience with... One of my other hobbies is making guitar stomp boxes (effects pedals), and I powder coat the aluminum boxes that house the electronics. It is by far the most durable finish I've worked with.

1) To properly flow the paint, the surface temperature of the coated surface has to reach a given temperature (specified by the powder) for a given length of time. When looking at powder, the specs will say something like 400 degrees @ 10 minutes. This is vastly different than cooking in a 400 degree oven for 10 minutes. A non-contact surface thermometer is typically useful to help you learn the heating time for the metal you're working with.

2) Do NOT use an oven that will be used for food preparation for powder coating! I picked up a very basic toaster oven for about $10 that will never see food prep -- just powder coating.

3) Powder coat outside or in a well ventilated area. The powder itself is harmless, although it can be a lung irritant, so a basic painting mask is fine. However, when it flows, it does out gas for a very brief period of time, and some of the stuff is toxic if in sufficient quantity. Some people I know who powder coat use their garage. I use my back porch which is three-sides of windows.

4) Just like with any other painting process, surface prep is important to the adhesion. I haven't tried bullets yet (although I'm going to now that I've read this thread), so I don't have any magic surface prep tips to share yet.

5) Powder is cheap and available, and a little goes a long way. "Powders Buy the Pound" and Eastwood are a couple of sources that I've had good experience with. PBTP has "heavy duty" and "hi temp" powders, although I fully intend to start with their regular ol' powders.


If you're going the electrostatic route (which is what I have), you need an air compressor and a powder coating gun setup (gun, air line, paint container, power supply). The part to be painted is grounded, and the gun's power supply charges the paint powder on its way out. The charged powder is electrostatically attracted and held to the grounded surface. Once sprayed, into the oven it goes.

You CAN get adhesion of the powder if the target object is heated up. A lot of powder coaters pre-heat what they're painting a bit to assist with the adhesion.


For my aluminum boxes, I suspend them from a wire hanger, but for bullets I think I would try placing them on a metal baking sheet on some aluminum foil. Ground the foil and spray away...


Powder coating is *incredibly* tough stuff and VERY hard to remove, even when trying (I learned this by making mistakes!!). Eastwood sells some nasty stuff specifically made to dissolve powder coating, and it is the only stuff I've found apart from sanding wheels that even touch it.

If there is enough interest, I'll coat a batch of bullets I just cast, and report back on the process. I also posted my process for powder coating boxes on an electronics forum. If there is interest and it is permissible to do so under the TOS of this forum, I'll post a link to it.

[Silver-Silver]

You should definitely post your results.

What is the TOS section of the forum?

If you hit the bullet with a hammer, does it cracking severely? It may sound like a messed up test, but I am thinking of high pressure and contacting the rifiling could cause everyting to crack off the bullet.

If you find pre-heating is helpfull please let us know what temperature.

I know it was mentioned before of using automotive paint, has anyone tried a few bullets?
Any other liquid paints people can think of that would work?

[Orochimaru]

Here is the thread (3+ years old) from the guitar effects site I was referencing above.

Remember -- these enclosures are built for looks as much as function, so I put some extra steps in for appearance sake. I suspect for bullets that much less preparation will still get the job done.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=71244.0


Anyway -- I did not have time today to do any testing, so I'll share results when I can (hopefully tomorrow or Friday).

[Orochimaru]

I made a few attempts at powder coating...

The method that seemed to work the best was to place the bullets, base down, on a cookie sheet lined with aluminum foil. With the sheet/foil grounded, I powder coated the bullets in the normal manner. This produced a thin, but rugged coating that easily survived a run through the sizing die.

I also smashed several of them with a hammer with no loss of the coating. It flexed with the bullet -- so this is promising.

Problems:

1) I have not had a chance to fire (or even load) them yet... and won't for a while thanks to work... :x

2) This method creates a jacket, it does not enclose the base of the bullet with powder.

3) The powder inevitably sticks to the aluminum foil and the bullet. When the bullet is removed, some foil come with it -- envision a very thin aluminum gas check.

4) On bullets with a sharp plateau, the powder coat was very thin. I think this was a technique error, though, and not systemic. I did not have much of the selected color left, and did not have good flow through the gun. Round nose bullets, on the other hand, coated beautifully and evenly.

I'll report back when I've had a chance to test them. I selected a very bright yellow so I will be able to see what, if any, residue/chips are left by firing.

[Hang Fire]

I am reading all the experiments and results with great interest and appreciate all the effort put forth by the experimenters. I think before this is all said and done, soft lubed boolits will go the way of the buggy whips.

[Orochimaru]

Here are some results from my initial powder coating experiment...

This is a tray of boolits (cast a few days ago) of which I did nearly nothing to prep. They are on a small toaster oven tray which is covered with a sheet of aluminum foil. These bullets have been coated, but not yet baked.
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Tray.png


The powder in question called for a 10-minute flow-out at 450 degrees (surface temp), followed by 20 minutes at 400 (surface temp). I tried to pick a color that would be easy to see if it flaked into the barrel.


Here is a 38SPL from this test:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/PC-38SPL.png



And a 45ACP:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/PC-45ACP.png


Which I then proceeded to smash with 3-4 hammer hits...
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/PC-Smashed.png



The small, ragged areas at the base of the bullet are caused by the powder sticking to the aluminum foil. The sizing die removes this -- neither of these bullets had been sized at this point.

So -- what I don't know yet is how these behave when fired. Do they need lube? Who knows? Perhaps a light pass of Alox + Mineral Spirits?

[Four Fingers of Death]

We shoot truckloads of polymer coated bullets in Australia and I have never heard of anyone lubing them or applying any other sort of preparation.

Would you be better using a piece of wood, drilled to accept the nose of the boolit? This would leave the bases sticking up and when sprayed and dried off, the base of the bullet would be intact. Also, they should break away cleanly from the wood. The nose would be uncoated, but, I can't see that being a problem as it doesn't touch the bore anyway.

[FLDad]

That would make it difficult because the boolits still need to be grounded. Maybe a piece of sheet metal drilled at intervals would work. Matching the shape of the nose to an appropriate diameter should be pretty easy, and the shoulder would keep the base from falling through.

[Four Fingers of Death]

That would make it difficult because the boolits still need to be grounded. Maybe a piece of sheet metal drilled at intervals would work. Matching the shape of the nose to an appropriate diameter should be pretty easy, and the shoulder would keep the base from falling through.

I have seen electrical current used often but, I didn't realise that you had to pass a current through when powder coating. That adds another variable as they say. Isn't lead a non -conductor?

That is what I meant about the holes, so the point sits in the hole and the shoulder butts up against it.

Could you roll them down an incline while you spray them or spray them as they tumble? Seems like you are trying to re-invent the wheel with this, but I don't have any knowledge of powder coating (except that it is virtually impossible to remove if you decide it isn't suitable).

I had a very knocked about SAKO that some dill had got buffalo blood all over in the Northern Territory and then used a big wire brush to clean the rust off, D'Oh! I had a mate convince me that powder coating was the way to go as he had done a few 22s that way. I got the SAKO powder coated, but the coating got into the screw holes, which I managed to fix, but the external parts such as the bolt release, etc, wouldn't fit as the thickness of the coating interferred with the fit. All sorts of things were tried and it ended up in the acid tank at the auto radiator repair shop overnight. Didn't make a dent in it! Ten days later the finish was finally removed on a wire wheel and the rifle re-finished. Strangely enough, it still shot ok! My mate oiled it and put it aside until he was firing up the blueing tanks. A week or so later he rang me and said he needed a SAKO action for a custom gun and he had built a series of them on exactly that action and he was unable to source one like it. I ended up swapping the rifle which was in the white and the old stock for a nice rifle in great condition, I can't remember what rifle I got for it, but I remember being very happy with the deal at that time, lol. Powder coating is ultra tough! I can't for the life of me figure why I didn't try a blow torch on it.

The stock ended up getting sold by the gunsmith at a gun show and the barrel ended up replacing a shot out one on another SAKO. The new owner was told of the history of it and got it cheap and it worked well apparently.

[Orochimaru]

For powder coating, the recipient surface must be at an electrical potential that attracts the charged paint particles. In this case, the objects must be grounded. Lead *is* a conductor -- it just isn't as good as something like silver or copper (by about a factor of 10). It is, however, good enough to electroplate and good enough to accept powder.

Powder will also adhere to warm/hot surfaces. I messed around with that a bit, too, but without much luck. I have not yet hit upon the temperature where the powder sticks but doesn't start to flow-out and get sticky (I had one batch where they all tried to stick together...). The other thing I'm not sure about using just heat is how to control the amount of powder. The electrostatic process is rather self-regulating. As the surface gets thicker with powder, the less and less new powder wants to stick. The heat process seems to have no such limits. I made one 45 that was so thick with powder that the lube grooves were completely gone! That's no good!

I'm not sure that I'm going to spend any time worrying about powder not completely covering the base. It doesn't contact the barrel, and as long as the local indoor ranges will accept my bullets as meeting their requirements, I'll be happy. They allow plated, jacketed, and semi-jacketed bullets -- the latter two having exposed lead at the base. The key seems to be no lead against the rifling of the barrel and (perhaps) no heavy lube.

Powder is REALLY tough stuff, as you pointed out. The only things I've been able to use to remove mistakes are physical abrasion (80 grit sandpaper / heavy wire brush) and some stuff specifically designed to remove powder coating (made by Eastwood). However, the key to getting it to BE tough stuff is surface prep. This first batch featured almost no surface prep at all other than a quick baking to try to reduce moisture. Perhaps the next batch will get a quick run through a tumbler with corn cob first.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The military have used open based bullets for yonks at high pressure and at ridiculously high temps in machine guns in combat situations and lead running out of the jacket was never a problem.

[Silver-Silver]

Orochimaru
Thank You! Thank You!
Your results are what I expected from others doing this earlier in the thread. I agree with you with the base of the bullet not needing covered. Lots of bullets are jacketed and don't have a sealed base.

What type of powder are you using? Epoxy, Polymer, Hybrid?

The scale of making large batches of this won't make it cost effective in a way I can understand. I do believe some of the coatings currently being sold are powder coat. And if they are, then it must be a boring job standing up all the bullets to coat and bake.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I must ask my mate if I can do a video of him making his coated bullets for YouTube. All would be revealed! He could use it as an advertisment as well. It would mean hanging around his place all day, but it would be interesting and I would then be able to answer all of the curly questions you guys keep asking me.

[Orochimaru]

Orochimaru
Thank You! Thank You!
Your results are what I expected from others doing this earlier in the thread. I agree with you with the base of the bullet not needing covered. Lots of bullets are jacketed and don't have a sealed base.

What type of powder are you using? Epoxy, Polymer, Hybrid?

The scale of making large batches of this won't make it cost effective in a way I can understand. I do believe some of the coatings currently being sold are powder coat. And if they are, then it must be a boring job standing up all the bullets to coat and bake.


This was an Eastwood powder for which I do not have the MSDS and their site is not forthcoming with specific information on the powder formulation. Just based on their wording about UV and Fuel resistance, I would have to guess that it is a Poly TGIC powder.

PowderBuyThePound lists the variety for their powders, and I've got both Poly, Poly TGIC and Hybrid from them -- all of which I intend to test and try.


I hear you on the cost-effective side of things, and I don't think that a "stand and spray" method is workable for large scale production. I suspect that they use a tumbling system that kinda hot flocks the powder -- just to the point where the powder will stick, but not hot enough to start flow. This would require very precise temperature control and precise flow of the powder to get a uniform coat.

On the other hand, for my purposes, doing it this way will easily produce enough bullets to keep me happy and saving a TON of money. Assuming it works, of course!

[Silver-Silver]

I don't think that a "stand and spray" method is workable for large scale production. I suspect that they use a tumbling system that kinda hot flocks the powder -- just to the point where the powder will stick, but not hot enough to start flow. This would require very precise temperature control and precise flow of the powder to get a uniform coat.

I think some companies are actually standing them up on sheets and spraying and baking after seeing the flashing on the base of the bullet of some commercially available bullets. You would still have to stand up the bullets to bake thereby you would probably just powder coat at the same time and skip the tumble process.

However, I think the way Four Fingers of Death's friend is making a liquid paint is much more effective for large scale. We just have to get some stuff over here in the states to give a try. Please make a video if possible. Do you know if he sprays the bullets or if he just pours in a measured amount of paint into the tumbling bullets?

It should be possible to make this as easy and hopefully as cheap as tumble lube. Once we are at that point, I can see regular lube go away, but until the masses can easily and cheaply coat bullets, I think there will be regular lube for sale.

[Four Fingers of Death]

He just poured in straight in from a paint tin into the cement mixer full of bullets when I was there, eyeballing the colour as it spread around and the bullets darkened. When he was happy with the colour (and subsequently the coating was thick enough) he put the tin aside and let them tumble.

This was before this thread and it didn't occur to me to follow the process through at the time.

[taminsong]

Guys,

Kindly check the link and if you have questions, please PM me.

http://s538.photobucket.com/albums/ff346/taminsong/SLUGS/

Been doing this thing for a couple of years now.

[Four Fingers of Death]

WOW! love the lipstick colours. The HPs look terrific.

[1845greyhounds]

Taminsong, very pretty. But what's the point of coating them if you them lube them? Is that so you can shoot in indoor ranges with jacketed boolit requirements? I think most of us are looking for an all-in-one lube-n-containment type coating.

[taminsong]

greyhounds,

I never shoot indoors, its just that I like my boolits lubed. There's something that is satisfying if I lubed it. Of course you can shoot it without lubed, no probs.

Powder coating is very slick to touch, I use high gloss color for black and red. when it passed thru the star sizer the coating still remains, even after it passed the barrel. It's hard, won't chip, won't peel off, won't cracked.

I really liked to resized the boolits when they're powder coated, very nice to touch. After they passed the star sizer, the lubed is sticky and doesn't feel good in the hands anymore.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The lube won't stick to the Aussie coated bullets. I pan lubed some with Pearl Lubeand it just came straight off when i tried to get them out of the pan, lol.

[taminsong]

Try Carnauba Red, that's what I'm using.

[castalott]

taminsong- very nice and very interesting...Would you please post pictures and 'how I do it" here?
I would also like your information on the paint and where to buy it. In short, I would like to know everything you know.

Thank You Very Much, Dale

[taminsong]

Powder coating supplies can be purchase at eastwood.com, they have everything!
I will try to take some pics, much better than explaining the whole thing.
I'm afraid I will be out of English words before I can explain it fully, lol!

[Shooter6]

Just thought I would post some pic on how my coating of 20 gauge slugs are going and the set up I am using. http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2498090280105544283oDyKoV
I am getting good results with the fluid powder coating although getting a consistant coat depends on the temp. that I dip at and the length of time you hold the slug in the powder.
I have not been able to get out and shoot for the last week, but hope to soon. I did determine that if you reheat the slug to 250 or higher the pro tec coating will melt back to a fluid state. Not sure if that is a possitive thing.

[firefly1957]

This would be interesting for swaged lead bullets as long as lube is not required. I think for spraying putting bullets upside down might work well.

I have try copper plating with no luck at all.

[Silver-Silver]

I have try copper plating with no luck at all.

I have never tried copper plating, but I have looked into it. From what I can tell, the plating is so thin it is more of just for color than for any meaningful protection. Swaging is another thing I am very interested. Brian is a vendor here on CastBoolits and has some nice dies for swaging over in the swaging section of the forum.

If anyone here can figure this coating thing out, I will use the coated bullets for plinking and everyday shooting stuff, and swaged bullets for shooting when I care about accuracy a bit more.

[Trail Finder]

What if you were to spray something like the Arsenol mould release spray? Would that give the same results?

[firefly1957]

I have some old swage dies for .357 & .452 they are designed to use half jacket they do lead well also. I have used lubed 38 bullets to make 45 160 gr bullets they shot quite well the lube keeps the lube grooves from collapsing.

[Shooter6]

Trail finder
I have tried mould release and did not get any better results than bear lead.

[firefly1957]

I saw a old lube formula that used bear grease but never have seen bear lead!

[Shooter6]

thats what you get when you rely on spell checker

[BJENKS]

Anyone happen to have tried Tech Line Powerkote DFL-1 (dry film lubricant) or anything like it?

This is from the product description:



High pressure lubricant
Reduces friction, galling and scuffing. Increases part life
Requires no clearance changes to compensate for the coating
Apply to any part subject to sliding or rotating friction
Excellent for use on bearings
Water based no hazardous fumes
Requires baking. Cures at 300f minimum. Must be oven cured


http://www.techlinecoatings.com/industrial/powerkote.html
http://techlinecoatings.com/Engine.htm

I thought it sounded promising. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?:?::?::?:

[Hang Fire]

That sounds very, very, interesting if their claims are true.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Anyone happen to have tried Tech Line Powerkote DFL-1 (dry film lubricant) or anything like it?

This is from the product description:



High pressure lubricant
Reduces friction, galling and scuffing. Increases part life
Requires no clearance changes to compensate for the coating
Apply to any part subject to sliding or rotating friction
Excellent for use on bearings
Water based no hazardous fumes
Requires baking. Cures at 300f minimum. Must be oven cured


http://www.techlinecoatings.com/industrial/powerkote.html
http://techlinecoatings.com/Engine.htm

I thought it sounded promising. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?:?::?::?:

Sounds good, but as I said earlier, be careful if there is any Teflon in it. It is apparently pretty nasty when subjected to high heat and extreme pressure when used in guns.

I saw my mate the bullet maker at a shoot this weekend and tried to talk to him. He is as deaf as a post and there were a few hundred noisy shooters and several live bands at the shindig. I gave up after awhile.

[Orochimaru]

I did a few more tests today. I don't have any pictures yet, but I thought I'd report what I found.


Unlike previous efforts, I actually did some minor surface prep prior to powder coating. I put the boolits into a plastic dish with some 95% Isopropyl alcohol -- just enough to get all the boolits wet. I just sloshed 'em around in this alcohol just like I was tumble lubing them. When I was ready, I picked out of few (wearing neoprine gloves) and set them on my baking tray. To remove all the moisture, I pre-baked them at about 200 degrees for about 10 minutes.

Afterwards, I powder coated them in the normal way with VERY good results. Beautiful, durable, smooth coating that effortlessly survived resizing. I smashed one with a hammer, and the only damage to the coating was caused by a glancing blow that cut into the lead (and send the bullet careening across the floor).

I'm going to load some of these up and try them on Tuesday. I'll report what I find.




Less successful was another "hot flocking" attempt...

First attempt involved pre-heating the bullet to about 200 degrees and rolling it in some powder. No good. The powder did not stick.

At 300 degrees, the powder stuck, but it was impossible to control the thickness. It ended up so thick it was VERY difficult to get the bullet through the sizer, and the powder peeled off.

[Orochimaru]

And here are some pictures of them loaded up and ready to go...



http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Tray-Small.jpg




http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Carrier-Small.jpg

[2wheelDuke]

I've been watching this thread for a while now,and decided to try the Krylon Fusion paint on some boolits.

I went to Home Depot today only to find out that they don't have Krylon at all. I picked up a can of Rust Oleum painter's choice that says it also bonds to plastics.

I plan to try a small batch of boolits to see how they come out, then I'll decide if they're good enough to load for further testing.

[finishman2000]

i sounds cool but i just don't see any advantage to this. what am i missing? i paint for a living, spray tech coating all day. and this is sooo much slower than lube sizing. why?

[Silver-Silver]

i sounds cool but i just don't see any advantage to this. what am i missing? i paint for a living, spray tech coating all day. and this is sooo much slower than lube sizing. why?

I can't say why others are interested in this. But I have a few reasons I am interested in coating bullets.

1) Ability to run through Mr. Bulletfeeder/Kiss Bulletfeeder
2) Storage of sized bullets and lube doesn't stick to everything
3) No handling of lead when loading or shooting
4) Allowed at ranges that do not allow exposed lead bullets
5) It is a minor byproduct, but a shiny brass cartridge with a bright red bullet looks COOL:-P
6) Others have mentioned have different colored bullets for different loads. Black for plinking, Yellow for target and Red for high powered loads
7) Less smoke when firing indoors or when there is not much wind

Personally I load/cast boolits in stages.
I cast and cast and cast until I am bored and have a large stockpile. This could be a couple evenings after work of just casting several thousand bullets.
Then I plan on painting all the bullets.
Then size and size for a couple days/evenings until they are all ready to load, then throw them in containers/ammo boxes and wait until I need them.

I know some people have very different habbits and cast/size in an evening and sometimes even load the cartridge. Everyone will have their own reason for doing this. Nobody is saying it will work for everyone, it just happens that everyone who is subscribed or reads the info in this thread is interested in the same thing so we all have a personal reason to find something that works. Some have tried things I don't agree with, but that doesn't stop me from learning from what they did. If it works for them, I am glad they shared their results with everyone else.

[2wheelDuke]

I've got my first test batch laid out. The ingots are only there to keep the plastic from blowing away. I'll also test the painted ingots to see if I can rub/scratch/wear the paint off since they have it on there anyway. I compared the MSDS sheets, and the Rustoleum Painter's Touch 2x coverage paint appears to be pretty similar to Krylon Fusion.

I'm using Lee's 230gr TC .45 boolit.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n73/2wheelduke/Guns/Coated%20Boolit%20Test/IMG00849-20120501-1548.jpg

I also got the bright idea to try setting some on their nose so that the base is getting coated.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n73/2wheelduke/Guns/Coated%20Boolit%20Test/IMG00851-20120501-1605.jpg

I'm also testing a batch of the 356-102-2r boolit.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n73/2wheelduke/Guns/Coated%20Boolit%20Test/IMG00850-20120501-1605.jpg

I figure at worst, if the paint turns out to be fragile and flakey, I can just throw them all back in the smelting pot.

[Silver-Silver]

I've got my first test batch laid out. The ingots are only there to keep the plastic from blowing away. I'll also test the painted ingots to see if I can rub/scratch/wear the paint off since they have it on there anyway. I compared the MSDS sheets, and the Rustoleum Painter's Touch 2x coverage paint appears to be pretty similar to Krylon Fusion.


2wheelDuke,
When you get around to sizing the bullets, can you make a mental note to check and see if they size easier than a regular lubed bullet?

Thanks

[Four Fingers of Death]

I just got off the phone to my mate who used to own and operate one of the larger commercial cast bullet operations in Australia. He sold his business off, because he said that the coated bullets were brilliant, but he got sick of the extra effort they require in manafacture.

He still sells bullets, but specialises in traditional cast bullets for black powder and BPCR. He sells coated bullets, but doesn't go out of his way to pursue this market. He buys his coated bullets from another manafacturer and they are bundled up with his labels, etc. He makes no effort to conceal the fact that they are made by a contractor and marks this on his label.

The process is:
cast bullets placed into tumbler (he used to use a cement mixer especially for the process and for special orders requiring a different colour, he used to place a 20ltr/4gallon drum inside the mixer.

First coat. chemical is poured onto the tumbling bullets until a very light coat is applied. When satisfactorily coated the bullets are tipped out onto a rack. Apparently bullets sticking to each other is not normally a problem.

Cook: Bullets are heated in an oven for 10-20 minutes. The oven needs to have an even temperature throughtout. Some use fan forced household ovens, the bigger operators use pizza ovens.

Cool: When air cooled (a fan is often used) they are returned to the tumbler.

Coat: This time a thicker coat is applied as the bullets tumble.

This process is done 2-3 times depending on the thickness required, etc.

Size: when finished, the bullets are run through a sizer without lube.

As you can see, this is a huge PITA, converntional bullets just need to be lube sized, which is virtually the last step in the coating process. I can see why my mate sold off that part of his business.

He uses the coated bullets sometimes for black powder, just pushes lube into the grooves. He uses a mixture of pig fat, beeswax and lard.

[finishman2000]

wow...lot of work for cool lookin boolits.
i think it would almost make sence if you had special molds so the last step could be skipped. to have to size after all that is the deal breaker for me.

[Four Fingers of Death]

wow...lot of work for cool lookin boolits.
i think it would almost make sence if you had special molds so the last step could be skipped. to have to size after all that is the deal breaker for me.

Thats what I thought, why not put some lube in the sizer, size them first and call the job done!

[Wal']

I was always under the understanding that the Boolit manufacturer here in Oz that I buy Boolits from sizes them first, then tumble coats them with his hard cast lube in the mixer.

It's been pretty much standard practice here for commercially sold Boolits for years. :happy dance:

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was always under the understanding that the Boolit manufacturer here in Oz that I buy Boolits from sizes them first, then tumble coats them with his hard cast lube in the mixer.

It's been pretty much standard practice here for commercially sold Boolits for years. :happy dance:

How do they lube if they size first? I would have thought that any lube applied to the bullets at that stage would comprimise the adherence of any coating chemicals later on or need removal before the coating was applied.

Sizing at the end sounds strange to me also, as the coating is gripping the sides of the bullet and the bullet is then reduced in size.

[2wheelDuke]

I took a couple of my painted boolits today and ran them thru the sizer. I compared to an unpainted, unlubed boolit from the same batch.

The coated boolits sized in a hand press took about the same effort as the unlubed boolit.

The bad news is that I can see the lead shining thru a bit on the bearing surface, so the coating is definitely thinner there.

[Wal']

How do they lube if they size first? I would have thought that any lube applied to the bullets at that stage would comprimise the adherence of any coating chemicals later on or need removal before the coating was applied.

Sizing at the end sounds strange to me also, as the coating is gripping the sides of the bullet and the bullet is then reduced in size.



Watching his boolit making process/machines,
the boolits were cast & then sized in a seperate machine.

Then loaded into his cement mixer which was either rubber or plastic lined, tumbled with his hard cast lube, then baked I think, didn't hang round to watch that process. :smile:

If you check out youtube there are few cylinder type boolit casting machines & sizers in action.

[Orochimaru]

If the sizing operation removes coating, then flying down a barrel surely will! The sizing operation is a good initial test of the thickness and durability of the coating.

I resize my bullets AFTER they've been powder coated. I toss my coated bullets into a plastic bowl (old margarine container) and give 'em a squirt with my home-made case lube (Lanolin + Alcohol).

They slip through the sizer with very little effort, and NO powder coating is removed. Powder is kinda slippery on its own, so they might go through the sizer with no lube at all.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I wasn't saying that I thought that the coating would be scraped off, but the coating is stuck to a bullet that is say, .358 and then that bullet is sized to 357essentially we have the same amount of coatingsticking to a bullet that has reduced in size.

As to when the sizing was done, that is the way Sod Buster told me he did it when he owned and operated Silver Shadow Bullets.

[Shooter6]

they size the bullets without lube and then tumble coat them the way I hear it from four fingers. Right now the way I fluid coat my 20 gauge slugs it comes out about .621 without sizing and that it perfect. I did change the way I dip the slugs to putting the eyelet on the bottom. from reading here I agree that you do not need coating on the bottom or the bullet. I am going to try cleaning the bullet before dipping with alcohol next.

[Shooter6]

Sounds like to me that the big companies down under have seen the hand writing on the wall and are gobbling up the small coated bullet manufacturers.

[Ausglock]

G'day All.
Here in OZ, there is a boolit maker called Topscore Projectiles.
They do coated lead Bullets.
I have been using them for years and I have spent a lot of time in his factory.
He casts then coats then sizes.

[Four Fingers of Death]

they size the bullets without lube and then tumble coat them the way I hear it from four fingers. Right now the way I fluid coat my 20 gauge slugs it comes out about .621 without sizing and that it perfect. I did change the way I dip the slugs to putting the eyelet on the bottom. from reading here I agree that you do not need coating on the bottom or the bullet. I am going to try cleaning the bullet before dipping with alcohol next.

No, I said that if you were to size before coating you would need some sort of lube as far as I can see. My Mate sized as a final step before packaging.

I was incorrect before it was Top Score not Silver Shadow bullets that he owned and he would have trained the New owner I suppose. I was under the impression that Tony Diablo from Victoria bought Top Score.

[FLDad]

Seems to me that everybody is looking for the same thing: the simplest process for coating and sizing for us DIY types. And it sounds like we're getting there. Thanks to all for some significant effort!

[bmiller]

What is the fastest velocity the powder coated or Australian bullets have been pushed? A coated 77 gr. for my 3-gun ar would be great. (Would this be remotely possible?) I have been playing with Sandsstrom coating in my s&w m&p 9mm, and have had very good results.

[Orochimaru]

A friend just brought me a gift -- a commercial polymer coated bullet made by a company called Bayou Bullets. A member at our gun club had some and gave him one to look at. The gentleman who provided the sample was highly positive in his review of the bullets. They can be shot indoors without issue, and his barrel remains clean -- no lead, no copper, and no polymer. The bullet is now in my possession. :-)

Observations:


The base is fully coated.
The lube groove is very lightly coated, and one circular spot exists in the lube groove where no coating is present
Based on my own experience, the bullet has been sized AFTER is was coated.
The coating looks slightly thinner and less durable than the Polymer TGIC powder I've been using
Thinner or not, it was tough enough to survive being pulled-down without any damage to the coating. Even copper plating will show scuffs.
The underlying lead bullet is a bit harder than I'd expect or use for the caliber (45 ACP). Although I don't have a formal BHN tester, the "fingernail" test + experience tells me that it is probably upwards of 12-14.


This tells me that I'm *very* close. I've read other reviews of these bullets and people seem to really like them. No smoke, no leading, good accuracy. If I can solve the "how do I coat the base" question, I think I've got a viable method and concept.

We're going to shoot some of my coated 38SPL later today (if everything goes as planned), plus I'll try to post some pictures of the Bayou bullet.

[Silver-Silver]

I have been busy lately and haven't had a chance to do any more testing. Personally I don't mind sizing, however if some one wants to try couldn't you coat a tumble lube design and skip sizing? I don't know for certain but I thought they were slightly smaller in diameter and didn't always have to be sized.

Sent using Tapatalk

[bmiller]

I have shot bayou bullets. They did not lead, they did not work in my pistol. I know several people that love them. I used a lee tumble lube mold and sandstrom coating. Had best results unsized. Unsized dia is. 358. I am going to shoot an IDPA match tomorrow with them.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have been busy lately and haven't had a chance to do any more testing. Personally I don't mind sizing, however if some one wants to try couldn't you coat a tumble lube design and skip sizing? I don't know for certain but I thought they were slightly smaller in diameter and didn't always have to be sized.

Sent using Tapatalk

No matter what I cast I will always try it with unsized with Lee tumble lube first (except for black powder stuff). Works mostly and saves a whole heap of time and effort.

[Ausglock]

I was incorrect before it was Top Score not Silver Shadow bullets that he owned and he would have trained the New owner I suppose. I was under the impression that Tony Diablo from Victoria bought Top Score.

Robert Conway owns and runs Topscore Projectiles with his extended family.

[Orochimaru]

Initial tests of my yellow 38 SPL bullets was successful. Pictures are pending, but no yellow stuff was deposited into the barrel.

Some 9mm goodies that are going to get shot tomorrow (along with the 45's from the other day)...

http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Tray2-Small.jpg

Will reporting my findings...

[Four Fingers of Death]

Blue lipsticks! Sure look good, hope they work for you.

[Orochimaru]

Some pictures from testing today:

Our bullet trap made from Kitty litter container and waterlogged catalogs...
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/BoolitTrap.jpg



A collection of recovered boolits:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/FiredGroup.jpg


38 Special recovered:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Fired38SPL-2.jpg



Another 38 Special:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Fired38SPL-1.jpg



A 9mm... if you look really closely, you can see the telltale signs of a hexagonal-rifled barrel -- this was from a Glock 17:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Fired9mm-1.jpg



And a "Blue Ballbuster" from the same Glock 17:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Fired9mm-2.jpg



Some boolits that collided with each other in the trap...
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/SmashedGroup.jpg




Two sides of a mangled 45ACP:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Smashed45-1.jpg



A 45 ACP that shows one of the few problems noted -- some cutting along the rifling lines:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/FiredPair-45Problem-1.jpg


A recovered 45ACP from the first batch:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/Orochimaru308/Coating/Fired45-1.jpg

[geargnasher]

Orchimaro, my hat's off to you, it appears you have a winning process there. It looks to me that the only reason for the slight failure of the land edge on the .45 slugs was due to skidding on launch. Notice the triangular shape of the exposed lead on the right side of the engrave in the next-to-last picture, and the drive bands "wadded up" on that side? The boolit skidded slightly as the rifling grabbed it and pulled it into a spin, displacing lead and scraping away the finish. Perhaps a switch to a slightly slower powder or slightly tougher alloy would solve this?

Gear

[Wal']

What is the fastest velocity the powder coated or Australian bullets have been pushed? A coated 77 gr. for my 3-gun ar would be great. (Would this be remotely possible?) I have been playing with Sandsstrom coating in my s&w m&p 9mm, and have had very good results.

Sorry personally, have no idea on centrfire rifle hard cast lubed projectiles, not powder coated, the few I do use are factory loads.

Have used tens of thousands of pistol loads over the last 10 yrs in my 9mm & .357 & up to factory bought speeds, approx 1100 to 1200 FPS with just the normal leading stains.

As in earlier post, surprised they're not used more up there. :?:

[Orochimaru]

Orchimaro, my hat's off to you, it appears you have a winning process there. It looks to me that the only reason for the slight failure of the land edge on the .45 slugs was due to skidding on launch. Notice the triangular shape of the exposed lead on the right side of the engrave in the next-to-last picture, and the drive bands "wadded up" on that side? The boolit skidded slightly as the rifling grabbed it and pulled it into a spin, displacing lead and scraping away the finish. Perhaps a switch to a slightly slower powder or slightly tougher alloy would solve this?

Gear

I agree -- it is something unique to the alloy or the powder/load. The powder and prep methods were the same as I used for the other calibers.

Thanks for the tip on the skidding! This was a light-ish load using Hodgdon Universal. I got a lot of carbon on the outside of the brass, so there were definitely some opportunities to improve the load.

[bmiller]

Orochimaru, nice job! I need to try powder coating! I shot an IDPA classifier plus two side matches on Saturday. Then some friends came over Sunday and we practiced on steel plates. Sandstrom treated bullets worked fine. Nothing more than tumble lube and bake. Chronographed load at 1070.

[Orochimaru]

Orochimaru, nice job! I need to try powder coating! I shot an IDPA classifier plus two side matches on Saturday. Then some friends came over Sunday and we practiced on steel plates. Sandstrom treated bullets worked fine. Nothing more than tumble lube and bake. Chronographed load at 1070.

Interesting!

Which Sandstrom product are you using? And, perhaps of equal importance, where are you able to buy it?

[bmiller]

I am using sandstrom 28a. It is an air-dry product, or you can force dry it. I purchased it direct from them. So far I am happy with the results.

[Orochimaru]

I think the problem with those 45ACP's is actually from the alloy being too hard for the job at hand. I tested them at a whopping 20.3 BHN tonight... :roll:

In fairness, it was an experimental alloy that I'm using for my DIY plating experiments (to see how tin/antimony content impacts plating), and I kinda knew that it was harder than it should be.

So....

I'm going to melt it down and re-cast the bullets with a BHN more suitable to 45ACP pressures, coat them, and try again.

[geargnasher]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the weak, tiny, tumble-lube bands are the culprit. Harder alloy would certainly reduce the skid, although a softer alloy might conform better and allow the boolit to skid slightly and deform without scraping back the coating. I was initially thinking the jump to the rifling from a long throat or the boolit being seated too deeply might have been causing it, but the recovered revolver boolits, with much more "jump" to the rifling, showed zero evidence of skidding or widened engraves on the front part of the boolit, which is amazing in itself.

Gear

[Orochimaru]

The coating's flexibility is what I think may provide the advantage for a softer alloy. The skid would create a modest deformation, but the coating wouldn't have to bear the brunt of this force on its own -- it could stretch with the underlying softer lead.

Perhaps!

I'll just have to cast some softer ones and go shooting! What a "shame". LOL!

[kcinnick]

I have shot bayou bullets. They did not lead, they did not work in my pistol. I know several people that love them. I used a lee tumble lube mold and sandstrom coating. Had best results unsized. Unsized dia is. 358. I am going to shoot an IDPA match tomorrow with them.

How did the 28a work out?

I have found two suppliers of the polymer coating, one is the original supercoat and the other is a copy of the original supercoat... I am waiting on pricing, but it will probably have to be a group buy effort to get the product at an affordable price in the US. I would much rather go with the original producer, since it is his formula, I hope everything works out. Looks like the original coating has been basically stolen from the original maker by some of his long term customers.

[Shooter6]

What I have found is that the coating on the slug (a .620 slug) that has bands are thinner on the band. I feel that unless you need a band to crimp the shell bands are not needed, but getting the right final thickness is critical. On the banded slug the rifling will cut into the coating. The .616 none banded slug is perfect as it now ends up at .621 and this is just right for my barrel. I am getting no leading now and as soon as I work out the perfect wad height in the 20 gauge slug I am sure the vertical stringing will be gone. Now that the leading is gone I can work on getting the wad and crimp on the shell right without worring about leading being the problem.

[bmiller]

28 A has been working good. I still am open to trying something else. I would be interested in a group buy on the super coating. Where can i find info on it?

[kcinnick]

They use it in Australia. I found out the "Copy cat" isn't a copy cat, they got permission from the manufacture to distribute in the US, but the original seller is willing to sell direct to me since the company hasn't even placed an order to export to the US yet. There are copy cats out there however, and I will not say who is using a copy of the coating, and I hope nobody supports those that steel proprietary formulas. I have also found out what the coating is on the coated bullets offered in the US, but I will not divulge that since it is being used off label, but I can say nobody is even close to getting it. The powder coat is OK if it where to have a stable lubricant at the heat and pressure produced by the firearms, however it is more effective to have the solid lubricant placed in a liquid to cure/dry to coat the bullets. Also, with tumble coating and heat curing you can process way more bullets than powder coat, and if you get a formula that works with surface area vs how much coating you can repeat the process with consistency. We are working on getting a quote to get it sent to the port of New Orleans and if I can swing it I am going to buy it. I will most certainly have to repackage it for individuals since it comes in 5 liter bottles and one liter covers 60k bullets, and you can dilute it with acetone to get more coverage. 2-3 thin layers diluted is stronger than one coat full strength. It is certainly not cheap, it runs more than the 28a, closer to the 9a heat cure moly Sandstrom. I am probably going with the original color, which is a color changing coating that turns from blue to green, you know it is cured when it reaches a certain color of green. Most other colors available are metallic, yellow, copper, gold, etc. but they cover less and cost more money.

I think I also figured out the lubricant used on the Hi-tek supercoat, but it is not widely available in the US, and is very expensive, it is probably going to be cheaper to import.

[Hang Fire]

They use it in Australia. I found out the "Copy cat" isn't a copy cat, they got permission from the manufacture to distribute in the US, but the original seller is willing to sell direct to me since the company hasn't even placed an order to export to the US yet. There are copy cats out there however, and I will not say who is using a copy of the coating, and I hope nobody supports those that steel proprietary formulas. I have also found out what the coating is on the coated bullets offered in the US, but I will not divulge that since it is being used off label, but I can say nobody is even close to getting it. The powder coat is OK if it where to have a stable lubricant at the heat and pressure produced by the firearms, however it is more effective to have the solid lubricant placed in a liquid to cure/dry to coat the bullets. Also, with tumble coating and heat curing you can process way more bullets than powder coat, and if you get a formula that works with surface area vs how much coating you can repeat the process with consistency. We are working on getting a quote to get it sent to the port of New Orleans and if I can swing it I am going to buy it. I will most certainly have to repackage it for individuals since it comes in 5 liter bottles and one liter covers 60k bullets, and you can dilute it with acetone to get more coverage. 2-3 thin layers diluted is stronger than one coat full strength. It is certainly not cheap, it runs more than the 28a, closer to the 9a heat cure moly Sandstrom. I am probably going with the original color, which is a color changing coating that turns from blue to green, you know it is cured when it reaches a certain color of green. Most other colors available are metallic, yellow, copper, gold, etc. but they cover less and cost more money.

I think I also figured out the lubricant used on the Hi-tek supercoat, but it is not widely available in the US, and is very expensive, it is probably going to be cheaper to import.

All you have posted is that you claim to know many secrets others are not privvy to, but will not divulge any of them. So just exactly what was the purpose of the post?

[kcinnick]

All you have posted is that you claim to know many secrets others are not privvy to, but will not divulge any of them. So just exactly what was the purpose of the post?

If you look you can figure all of the coatings out, with exception of the hi-tek supercoat, the lubricant is a highly guarded secret, but I suspect I know what it might be.

The commercial coating used on the commercial poly bullets available in the US is used off label, I would not want to divulge that information due to liability reasons. I don't yet know enough about the coating other than the lubricant and what its original purpose. I am going to do more research on the coating, and I can tell you nobody is on the right track with this one, but it is available from industrial paint supplies.

The two bullet coatings we have available are the ones produced by Sandstrom and the Hi-tek coatings in Australia. Other members are currently testing Sandstrom, I am trying to import the Hi-tek to test, the only problem is that I would need to order quite a large amount to make shipping cost effective and if I were to make it available to those interested I would have to repackage and re label it, unless anyone wanted 25 liters plus the 5 liters catalyst, before dilution you would be able to coat 1.8 million bullets.

I dug deep into this, and found out some things that I don't wish to share. I do not want to hurt anyone's business or recommend to use something not designed to be used to coat a projectile. I am not looking to make money on selling coating, I just want to share the cost, if someone else wants to import it and distribute it and they live near a port centrally located in the US, I would be more than happy to help them place an order for coating as long as they order me some, it would save me a lot of work.

There is a company that plans to sell the coating in the US, but they have not started to move the needle on the process yet.

Nick

[Freeborn Man]

Keep us posted on the import stuff. I'm interested.

[bmiller]

When I shoot commercially available green bullets there is one thing that makes me nervous. They smell just like grinding wheels being used on a hand grinder. I am sure that is not an ingredient, but that smell makes one wonder. I do not get that weird smell with Sandstrom. No point really,just an observation.

[kcinnick]

I have successfully made arrangements to import the Hi-Tek Supercoat they use on the bullets in Australia. You can read about it on the two major bullet manufacturers in Australia, HBRC and Topscore.

The cost will be similar in volume to that of the Sandstrom 9a heat cure product. It is a two part polymer paint with solid lubricant, so if someone is really interested in some, let me know via PM, I would be glad to add on to the order for you. It cost me the same to ship 20 liters or 100 liters, or even more. A minimum order would be 5 liters of coating and 1 liter of catalyst, anything less would be too hard to bottle the catalyst, especially since I am doing this as a service more than a profit making enterprise, in the future I will sell the coating for a profit, but for now the only savings would really be shipping savings if someone where to get in on the order! If you want to get together in groups or gun clubs and order then split it up that will be fine as long as one person sends me payment. Each mixed liter should cover 45-60k bullets depending on the bullet and how thick you put it on. Order time frame is about two weeks away, shipping will be 6-8 weeks since it is going on the slow boat from Australia to New Orleans. I won't know shipping costs until I see how I have to ship it, I assume I should be safe shipping UPS or Fedex ground.

I go by the same username on Bayoushooter.com if anyone is uncomfortable with my minimal posts on this forum, last I checked I had a 100% trader rating on Bayoushooter!

[1845greyhounds]

Kcinnick, I am interested but would like a few more details before committing. For those of us that don't know the cost of Sandstrom 9A, what is the approximate cost per liter of the paint and the catalyst? What is the application process? You mentioned a thermal cure, any details? Will you supply a copy of the MSDS with each order? I think that might be a shipping requirement for chemicals.

[bmiller]

Kcinnick, what is the shelf life of the product? I shoot quite a bit, but i don't know if I will shoot 40000 in a year. Thanks

[Silver-Silver]

Kcinnick,
Count me in on 1 liter to start. You know I am interested !


Kcinnick, what is the shelf life of the product? I shoot quite a bit, but i don't know if I will shoot 40000 in a year. Thanks

Bmiller,
A suggestion for you is don't worry about shooting that much, you just have to cast that many. If you take your popular calibers and cast 40K, and then coat them. Shelf life is un-important.

[kcinnick]

I have all kinds of data available on the coating that was sent by the manufacture.

The process involves mixing the appropriate amount of coating and catalyst, diluting with a certain amount of acetone, then pouring on thr tumbling bullets. The method recommended was a bucket or trash bin inside a cement mixer. After that you dump the bullets out on mesh screens and let them dry. You then bake they bullet to a minimum temp of 180 degrees celsius, rinse and repeat. You can do the process 2-3 times, it is up to you.

The advantage is you have bullets that can handle velocities once only reserved for jacketed bullets and you don't have to lube. I am working with ballisti cast to make a sizer that just sizes, no lube parts and he said it is going to cut my machine costs significantly. I think this is the wave of the future since the added cost to coat each bullet is $.001 and it had so many advantages. When I have final shipping and customs cost I can get an accurate cost on the 5 liter bundle, I would have to mark up the product to package it in a one liter bundle, but I will see if I can find suitable containers at a decent price. The maker is being very reasonable with his costs in order to get the product in the US, however estimated shipping and custom fees are around $1100 before I get the first bottle.

[Orochimaru]

I'm interested in the secret mix, too.

Depending on what the final cost is, I'd probably be interested in purchasing a liter or two.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have all kinds of data available on the coating that was sent by the manufacture.

The process involves mixing the appropriate amount of coating and catalyst, diluting with a certain amount of acetone, then pouring on thr tumbling bullets. The method recommended was a bucket or trash bin inside a cement mixer. After that you dump the bullets out on mesh screens and let them dry. You then bake they bullet to a minimum temp of 180 degrees celsius, rinse and repeat. You can do the process 2-3 times, it is up to you.

The advantage is you have bullets that can handle velocities once only reserved for jacketed bullets and you don't have to lube. I am working with ballisti cast to make a sizer that just sizes, no lube parts and he said it is going to cut my machine costs significantly. I think this is the wave of the future since the added cost to coat each bullet is $.001 and it had so many advantages. When I have final shipping and customs cost I can get an accurate cost on the 5 liter bundle, I would have to mark up the product to package it in a one liter bundle, but I will see if I can find suitable containers at a decent price. The maker is being very reasonable with his costs in order to get the product in the US, however estimated shipping and custom fees are around $1100 before I get the first bottle.

God luck with it, I have used thousands of bullets coated with Joe's stuff and they have been absolutey, utterly trouble free and reliable.

[Wal']

God luck with it, I have used thousands of bullets coated with Joe's stuff and they have been absolutey, utterly trouble free and reliable.

What he said. :smile: :smile:

[Four Fingers of Death]

That was good luck, not God luck, lol.

[popper]

Yes, I read all 21 pages. This is interesting, especially the pics of recovered CBs. I'm wondering if this is not really a 'liquid' paper patch solution. PET Polythylene terephthalate coatings I think is the invar stuff. 260 C melting, but coats at 70C. Then lube with WS2 for HV rifle?

[bmiller]

Who manufacturers the PET coatings? Do you have any experience working with them?

[Shooter6]

I dont think I am giving out any big secrets. the sandstrum products are moly disulfide
and I am guessing that the better coating is Tungsten Disulfide. If you look at a comparison you will see that the tungsten disulfide is more slipery but more expensive, but the price of the moly has gone up to almost the same level.

[popper]

DuPont ™ Rynite ® PET, http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/pet-polyethylene-terephthalate-raw-material.html - I'm not fond of the alibaba site but it does give manuf names. The Tungsten Disulfide is better. Found some details under Invar corp. I was looking at polypropylene and polyurethane characteristics when I came across this.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was aways told that Tungsten is potentially dangerous stuff and has a lot of serious impact on health. I imagine being shot out of a revolevr would cause it to mist/vaporise causing probs like the teflon coats did. Is this the case?

[kcinnick]

I dont think I am giving out any big secrets. the sandstrum products are moly disulfide
and I am guessing that the better coating is Tungsten Disulfide. If you look at a comparison you will see that the tungsten disulfide is more slipery but more expensive, but the price of the moly has gone up to almost the same level.

There are only so many Solid lubricants out there, but both moly and tungsten are nearly black, I don't see how supercoat could be green, blue, gold, copper, etc if the lubricant was black.

[kcinnick]

I dont think I am giving out any big secrets. the sandstrum products are moly disulfide
and I am guessing that the better coating is Tungsten Disulfide. If you look at a comparison you will see that the tungsten disulfide is more slipery but more expensive, but the price of the moly has gone up to almost the same level.


DuPont ™ Rynite ® PET, http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/pet-polyethylene-terephthalate-raw-material.html - I'm not fond of the alibaba site but it does give manuf names. The Tungsten Disulfide is better. Found some details under Invar corp. I was looking at polypropylene and polyurethane characteristics when I came across this.

I do not believe Rynite nor PET resins is the secret...

[popper]

Tungsten Disulfide - not toxic and not black. Virgin teflon breaks down to a poisonous gas when burned. PET has low COF but is not a lube, it would be a plastic jacket. Moly gets hard and crusty build-up which is hard to remove from the bbl, the bbl should have a coating applied to it for best results, like alox.

[kcinnick]

I know PET is not in the coating. I now what is in 93% of the coating, its that other 7% that is proprietary. I have a good idea what it is from the data, but I looked at the separate ingredients cost vs the cost of the coating, and you would have to be buying ingredients by the ton to reproduce it for what it cost. Besides, I have too much respect for intellectual property to even try to copy the coating, even if it was cheaper.

It has some impressive properties.

Melting point: Does not melt
Ignition Temperature : Not Combustible
Tested up to 3500 FPS and retained the coating

It eliminates the need for gas checks on rifle bullets and allows you to use bullet designs without bullet grooves to increase weight if desired.


Tungsten Disulfide - not toxic and not black. Virgin teflon breaks down to a poisonous gas when burned. PET has low COF but is not a lube, it would be a plastic jacket. Moly gets hard and crusty build-up which is hard to remove from the bbl, the bbl should have a coating applied to it for best results, like alox.

[bmiller]

Nick, do you have the cost to buy nailed down yet? I got to have it!

[popper]

Any organic chemists on the board? Question is - if I dip CBs in antifreeze and then the reagent, does it form a coating and if so, can the process be repeated to thicken the coating? PM please for safety reasons.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Tungsten Disulfide - not toxic and not black. Virgin teflon breaks down to a poisonous gas when burned. PET has low COF but is not a lube, it would be a plastic jacket. Moly gets hard and crusty build-up which is hard to remove from the bbl, the bbl should have a coating applied to it for best results, like alox.

Thats good, thanks.

[finishman2000]

either polyester or epoxy based with a friction package added?

[kcinnick]

Tungsten Disulfide - not toxic and not black. Virgin teflon breaks down to a poisonous gas when burned. PET has low COF but is not a lube, it would be a plastic jacket. Moly gets hard and crusty build-up which is hard to remove from the bbl, the bbl should have a coating applied to it for best results, like alox.

Every tungsten disulfide I can find is dark grey or "nearly black", maybe a hair shade lighter than moly.

[Silver-Silver]

I have a question.

Do people care if the coating is black? I will be honest, it would be nice to have different color coatings for different loads. But it is by no means a deal breaker. I put loaded rounds into boxes with load data on the top of the box, so it isn't absolutely necessary.

The conventional lube we use can be colored but most people that mix their own seem to use it as the color it comes out of the melting pot.

kcinnick, any word on pricing of 1 liter shipped for the coating out of Australia? Even a ballpark. So far we haven't heard any cost, just what it would cost you to ship to the states.

[popper]

kcinnick - I have NO experience with the tungsten disulfide, just going from pictures in a post of someone using it. One comment was it wasn't 'black and dirty' like moly, he actually put his dirty rags in the washer without the spouse griping. He was using the impact method of application. Still don't know if it gets hard and crusty in the bbl.

[Shooter6]

I have used moly before in my in line ML and never had a problem. I think it made the gun easier to clean. Actually I had the idea to add a little to the pro tec I am using to coat the 20 gauge slugs and it mixed with out any problems and I am hoping to get out today to try some with this coating and the Sandstrum 28a spray.

[Shooter6]

http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2480285500105544283SdZbAk
target for today. shooting 50 yards with scoped 1187 20 gauge. the first shot was the low one from clean barrel. This is 2 coats of Sandstrum 28A on a 510 grain lead slug. the slug starts at about .615 and ends up about .617 after spraying. Compaired to the pro tec coating this was the most consistant shooting I had today. Lots of virtical stringing with the pro tec but the coating was varied with protec. from .619 to .621. Going to go to 3 coats of 28A and add a little more molly to the protec for tomorrow. I do get a lighter coating from the protec with the molly added. ( about 10%) I want to see how much molly can be added to the protec before it causes problems.

[bmiller]

I will shoot my second match with the Sandstrom 28a coated bullets this weekend. The bullets worked well in the first match. I am debating on trying some 9a, is there anyone with experiance with this product?

[1845greyhounds]

For those of you using Sandstrom 28A, have you been monitoring leading? I have tried the 28A on soft range scrap lead (mostly lead from FMJ's) and on some purchased "hard" cast 40 cal bullets in my stock Glock. In both cases, the barrel had a visible and very significant leading from about an inch forward of the throat to the muzzle after only 10 shots. I managed to recover some of the shot hard cast bullets and they were completely naked.

Additional info:
- My load was only running ~800 fps
- The purchased (hard cast) bullets had all wax removed with acetone prior to coating.
- All bullets were degreased with naptha and allowed to fully dry before applying 1 coat of 28A.
- The 28A used for coating came from a fully and freshly agitated can.
- All 28A coating looked uniform and completely encapsulated the lead. No exposed lead after coating.
- My cast bullets (the soft ones) were sized to 0.401 in a LEE.
- The hard cast bullets were shot w/o additional sizing.

If you are using 28A and aren't getting excessive leading, what is your application process? How hard are your bullets?

[bmiller]

I am shooting a 5"m&p with a storm lake barrel. I am using wheel weight lead. I do not have a hardness tester. I am getting some leading, but does not seem to hurt accuracy. The bore has a greyish look to it, but I think it is moly residue. I am tumble lubing by hand, air -drying for 30 minutes, then baking for an hour after they come up to temperature. I am still learning. The load is chronographed at 1070fps.

[1845greyhounds]

What temperature and why are you baking? I take it that the level of leading you're seeing isn't alarming...?

[kcinnick]

I have some restrictions on the first batch for selling the product. It would be a minimum 5 liter kit. Once I get final numbers, I only have estimates, I can quote prices for those interested in those amount of quantities. It is not an overnight process to import a haz-mat product from OZ to the Swamps of Louisiana.

Joe is willing to make a "Hobby" Kit with the same coating but a different catalyst to mix smaller batches, but that won't come to fruition by this shipment, he wants the coating to go out commercially first and get a good reputation first. The goal is to make something that a home caster could mix 1:1 and get consistent results without precise measuring equipment. Right now the mixture is much higher. I have some confidentiality stuff I had to agree to in order to get the coating, so.... I really want the coating and am not going to risk my supply. We have approximately 200 liters coming to the US, which should cover 12 million bullets give or take.

There is another company also planning to import the coating to the US, but they haven't placed their order yet, so I am jumping through the customs hoops to get it here. The independent data testing done on the coating is quite impressive, I think it is much better than shooting copper jacketed bullets through your gun.


I have a question.

Do people care if the coating is black? I will be honest, it would be nice to have different color coatings for different loads. But it is by no means a deal breaker. I put loaded rounds into boxes with load data on the top of the box, so it isn't absolutely necessary.

The conventional lube we use can be colored but most people that mix their own seem to use it as the color it comes out of the melting pot.

kcinnick, any word on pricing of 1 liter shipped for the coating out of Australia? Even a ballpark. So far we haven't heard any cost, just what it would cost you to ship to the states.

[bmiller]

Greyhounds, I live in a high humidity area, plus I am impatient! On the can it gives the force dry protocol. I am baking at 225°F.

Nick, please advise when you get a price nailed down.

[wrinkles]

The mention of a catalyst makes me think of something like prolane (duracoat) as a possible choice.

[kcinnick]

The first order is going to be used for commercial production, it is all spoken for. We are working with Joe to get a reasonable cost home hobby kit that won't break the bank and and toned down catalyst that isn't so high on the haz mat list. Right now it would cost me about as much to ship 1 liter of the catalyst as the kit cost, but the good news is regular shipments are going to be coming in to the US, and as soon as he has something worked out, we can get it out there. 5 liters of color and 1 liter of catalyst would run a fortune for a home caster (excess of $300 before shipping), a more reasonable package would be 1 liter of color and 1 liter of catalyst (toned down) and is a goal I hope we can reach. Also, there are concerns about people trying to use the coating in their kitchen, not using a respirator or some other Darwin award activity, so we are looking at legal issues and how we would need to package it, documentation, etc.

We looked at getting a custom coating mixed in the US and the places with the capabilities don't have an interest in doing small batches, they are going after defense contracts and large weapons contracts.

[63 Shiloh]

Making up and selling 'hobby packs' is a great idea mate.

Some mates and me have got some coming in and we are going to coat our own cast boolits at home.

I am surprised that you are the only US importer at this stage. I mentioned over a year ago that a US based company could make a killing importing the polymer coatings. So good luck to you, I reckon you are on a winner.

A suggestion if I may, concentrate on the pistol calibers at first, especially the 9mm. This coating process makes 9mm loading a pleasure, no leading at all, no gumming up dies, no need to sort out a lube that works. Just coat and load.


Mike

[kcinnick]

Making up and selling 'hobby packs' is a great idea mate.

Some mates and me have got some coming in and we are going to coat our own cast boolits at home.

I am surprised that you are the only US importer at this stage. I mentioned over a year ago that a US based company could make a killing importing the polymer coatings. So good luck to you, I reckon you are on a winner.

A suggestion if I may, concentrate on the pistol calibers at first, especially the 9mm. This coating process makes 9mm loading a pleasure, no leading at all, no gumming up dies, no need to sort out a lube that works. Just coat and load.


Mike

The coating is coming. Joe's version, and a copy version. The copy is already here, and they have been having problems with adhesion, the rifling is also cutting through the coating, something that doesn't happen with Supercoat. I am not going to advertise for that company, they tried to steal Joe's coating and it has made him very cautious, and they failed. Another company that sells bullets in Australia is going to market a coating here, I am not sure what color, but they haven't placed an order yet. I placed an order to coat 12 million bullets, give or take, just one color to keep things simple and test out the coating.

The biggest stumbling block I see for a home hobby kit is the need to have a vented oven. A powder coat oven won't work, and you really need convection.

[fullofdays]

The history of his thread is confusing me. Can someone in the know list out the following:


What coatings are working and what coatings are not & what coatings are available in the States in small batch and what coatings are not? what coatings require applying powdercoating & baking and which ones do not?




Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[Four Fingers of Death]

The coating is coming. Joe's version, and a copy version. The copy is already here, and they have been having problems with adhesion, the rifling is also cutting through the coating, something that doesn't happen with Supercoat. I am not going to advertise for that company, they tried to steal Joe's coating and it has made him very cautious, and they failed. Another company that sells bullets in Australia is going to market a coating here, I am not sure what color, but they haven't placed an order yet. I placed an order to coat 12 million bullets, give or take, just one color to keep things simple and test out the coating.

The biggest stumbling block I see for a home hobby kit is the need to have a vented oven. A powder coat oven won't work, and you really need convection.

Sodbuster, the guy who used to operate a commercial bullet casting business (he still does, but now shoots black powder/cowboy action exclusively and doesn't bother with the coating anymore and sold off that part of the operation) and has provided me with a lot of advice said that some of the guys here use pizza ovens.

[Shooter6]

fullofdays
Protec is a powder coating that is available in USA and is normally used to coat fishing jigs. It is a coating that the object is dipped into and then heated and cooled. Look on Utube for ways to coat.
Sandstrum 28A is available in the USA from Sandstrum and is a moly added to what I don't know, but is available as a spray can or in qt.. It will air dry or force dry by heating.
You can also buy bullets coated from Bayou bullets in LA, the coating is about the same color as the Sandstrum.

[kcinnick]

Bayou bullets coating is green and does not use moly. The owner doesn't disclose the lubricant, and I respect that fact and I won't disclose what it is. I had the pleasure of hanging out with Donnie of bayou bullets for 1/2 a day last week and he has a 9 week backlog, and he ships and boxes his bullets the day after they are made 6 days a week. It was amazing hearing the master casters go ssshhhhh, plink, sshhhh, plink almost effortlessly, they did have to put a lead ingot in every now and then.

The sandstrom coating is ok, but had drawbacks all moly coatings have. It is expensive for what it is.

[Shooter6]

Kcinnick
I was only answering fullofdays question to the best of my knowledge. I should have added that for most shooters it will be better to wait for the commercial companies to sell bullets coated that have been tested for safety and operation in the guns designed for. Right now the only company offering a bullet is Bayou and you are right that moly has its problems as does the ProTec coating I have tried. When the Australian coatings are available in the USA from what I have seen of Bayou's prices most will not want to coat their own and will just buy coated the way we now buy lubed and get a better non smoking bullet. In fact the cost will be so low that I can see these bullets cutting into copper coated sales. I am coating a 20 gauge slug that will in all likely hood not be available the way pistol and rifle cal. will be.

[kcinnick]

Kcinnick
I was only answering fullofdays question to the best of my knowledge. I should have added that for most shooters it will be better to wait for the commercial companies to sell bullets coated that have been tested for safety and operation in the guns designed for. Right now the only company offering a bullet is Bayou and you are right that moly has its problems as does the ProTec coating I have tried. When the Australian coatings are available in the USA from what I have seen of Bayou's prices most will not want to coat their own and will just buy coated the way we now buy lubed and get a better non smoking bullet. In fact the cost will be so low that I can see these bullets cutting into copper coated sales. I am coating a 20 gauge slug that will in all likely hood not be available the way pistol and rifle cal. will be.

I hope you are right. I kind of jumped two feet in with a partner. I actually got to see the coating process, and it is not really set up as a small volume process. Hopefully once I get the coating in and get the kinks worked out I will be first to market with the Australian coating, but others are trying to get it here. The two things holding me back right now is the slow boat from Australia, waiting on the auto casting equipment, and the alphabet boys paperwork. If things go as planned I will be producing first of August, if not sooner.

[Four Fingers of Death]

[QUOTE=kcinnick; If things go as planned I will be producing first of August, if not sooner.[/QUOTE]


Good luck with that.

[Hang Fire]

How are the home grown experiments going? How is the import of coatings progressing?

I don't want this thread to die on the vine as I was finding it most interesting.

[Survival Bill]

Do you still have to lube these coated boolits or not?

[Hang Fire]

No, the coating encases the boolit like a jacket.

[kcinnick]

How are the home grown experiments going? How is the import of coatings progressing?

I don't want this thread to die on the vine as I was finding it most interesting.

Coating was put on the boat last Friday. Too bad there is no tracking between Sydney and New Orleans.

What we are getting is really only good for commercial applications. The curing process is the part that becomes a problem, a dedicated, vented, forced air commercial oven is needed to cure the coating.

[Shooter6]

My testing efforts have been put on hold due the a malfunction of my gun that is waiting for repair. but the most recent testing indicates problems with both the pro tec and sandstrom giving me a cleaning job. Not lead but residue in the barrel.

[kcinnick]

My testing efforts have been put on hold due the a malfunction of my gun that is waiting for repair. but the most recent testing indicates problems with both the pro tec and sandstrom giving me a cleaning job. Not lead but residue in the barrel.

Any Moly coating is going to have that issue.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Any Moly coating is going to have that issue.

You shouldn't get that with Joe Ban's stuff, I have fired thousands of rounds through my cowboy and IPSC guns and hardly ever clean them. No bore deposits that I can see.

i once bought 2000 coated 9mm boolits, fired them off over a few months (the barrels had Lord knows how many through it without cleaning before I started using these). The internals had a lot of crud built up, but the barrel looked ok. I cleaned off the staligmites and staligtites and gave the barrel a swab with Hoppe's. Didn't need much, came out clean after a patch or two and that was powder residue I feel.

[kcinnick]

You shouldn't get that with Joe Ban's stuff, I have fired thousands of rounds through my cowboy and IPSC guns and hardly ever clean them. No bore deposits that I can see.

i once bought 2000 coated 9mm boolits, fired them off over a few months (the barrels had Lord knows how many through it without cleaning before I started using these). The internals had a lot of crud built up, but the barrel looked ok. I cleaned off the staligmites and staligtites and gave the barrel a swab with Hoppe's. Didn't need much, came out clean after a patch or two and that was powder residue I feel.

Joes coating doesn't have Moly in it!

[Four Fingers of Death]

Joes coating doesn't have Moly in it!

As the kids say these days, preeeecisely!

[plamenti]

The user "Simba" PM me, but he has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. I can't send PM to him and therefore I post the answer here. May be useful.

Mr Plamenti hi ,

First of all , I would like to thank you for sharing us those new technics for who is interested in coating boolits.

Before reading your article I have tried several methods to avoid smoke and leading problem.But now I am going to tray that method which seems so atractive.

I would like to as a few questions :

1) Did you avoid all smoke and leading problem with ''powder coating '' ? .Do you advise or available to use in IPSC for minor power factors (like minor 9mm 125PF ) any loosing of performance ?

2)How did you solve below problem ( you mentioned in cast boolits ) ? The problem occured removing from oven or removing after paint ?


" sometimes the paint is thick and I have a problem with removing the boolits from the tray, some of the coating breaks off.

3) After painting/coating you resize the bullets again ?

I will be very happy if you reply that message

Thanks and regards
Hi Simba,

my answers one after another:

1. I didn't avoid all of the smoke, but I'm very satisfied from the result. Here is a video from my last IPSC competition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X_-cs1cOe8
I'm shooting with 147 grain painted boolits and you can see the smoke. But I'm using very low quality powder for shotguns - here the good powder like Hodgon or IMR is very expensive and we are using a cheap powder for shotgun (for hunting). I had no leading problems after about 220 shots. No major problems with the leading after 400 shots too (tested in the training sessions).
I'm shooting in Production devision and my PF is about 132-135. The accuracy is very good - 2-3 inch group at 25 meters. Here we have a lot of shooters in Standard devision, who are shooting in .40 cal with 180 or 200 grain polymer painted boolits in major PF (about 180-185 ). No problems with leading and according the powder - with the smoke. Same thing with .38 SA cal.

2. I solve the problem by the removing with nuts :). Just be careful by the conveyance. See the pictures (here are 125 grain boolits, but with the 147 grain is the same, just haven't pics):
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0395/027033356.jpg
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0395/027033359.jpg
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0395/027033360.jpg
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0395/027033363.jpg
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0395/027033364.jpg

3. I found, that the best way is to resize the boolits twice - once before and once after polymer coating. First I'm using .355 sizing die set (from CH4D) and after the painting - .356 sizing die set (Lee).

Hope this help.

[Hang Fire]

Looking good there. Glad to you guys persevering in improving the process.

[simba]

The user "Simba" PM me, but he has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. I can't send PM to him and therefore I post the answer here. May be useful.

Hi Simba,

my answers one after another:
....

Hope this help.

Thank you very much MR Plamenti that is very kind of you to sharing those details.

My another question ;
Do you or any of your friends who uses same boolits (may be same material like dynamic arms bullets ) any chance to try Hodgon-Vithaviori etc. powders to test the smoke ? I am so obsess about to get same standard with factory ammo... :roll:

Regards

[Silver-Silver]

any chance to try Hodgon-Vithaviori etc. powders to test the smoke ? I am so obsess about to get same standard with factory ammo... :roll:
Regards

Simba,
Why not give it a try! The process has been outlined for you. You just need to get out there and coat the bullets and try any powder you would like. Anyone who is obsessed with trying to replicate a jacketed factory round knows sooner or later they are going to have to try their ideas. You can't expect plamenti or any other person to spend their hard earned money to help you out with your obsession. It sounds like he is happy with what he has and good for him for publishing his findings for everyone to read and learn from.

Get out there and try it !

[plamenti]

My another question ;
Do you or any of your friends who uses same boolits (may be same material like dynamic arms bullets ) any chance to try Hodgon-Vithaviori etc. powders to test the smoke ?

I tried Hodgdon Titegroup - great powder, little bit fast for lead boolits, but the results was great. The smoke was in normal bounds. Unfortunately I haven't video or pics.

Here is my last approach - I paint the boolits at the rear side. The result is TPSP - Total Paint Soft Point :D. The accuracy is very good, almost smokeless especially with good powders like Titegroup. I painted yesterday 1K boolits and here are the pics :)

Line up the boolits:
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0720/027684750.jpg

http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0720/027684751.jpg

Painting:
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0720/027684752.jpg

After baking ready for sizing and reloading :):
http://media.snimka.bg/s1/0720/027684749.jpg

[MrMagoo157]

Let me first say I am a newbie here and this is only my second post. I must also admit that I have never cast a single bullet but have nearly 20 years experience as a machinist, so I do understand a lot of what is discussed. It is amazing for me to see the amount of time and energy spent trying to find the "Holy Grail" of boolit coatings and I applaud those that have made strides in this area. I guess what we are all looking for is a coating that will allow jacketed bullet velocities/accuracy without a TON of time spent applying the coating or removing it from our barrels. I have a new challenge to produce .224" bullets for my 223 Rem blasting habit but have found swaging to be too time consuming and expensive. Jacket bullets are somewhat scarce, especially in the cheaper 7-10 cent/ea range. So, I have decided to look into casting a spitzer style bullet at ~60 grains and find the proper coating to allow 2500+ fps. Can anyone with this experience steer me in the right direction? Saeco/Redding has the bullet mold but I may have to go custom if the sizing issue is a problem because I plan to size and coat without additional steps. Any idea or help is appreciated.....Thanks

[docmagnum357]

SandStrom 28a? "tumble lubed " in a Cement mixer? Sized afte the coating " looks right? " I think I have it. Can you get the Sandstrom in different colors?

I already have everything I need to make this happen, and i am not in a hurry.... i will be happy if I can coat a fair sized batch of boolits that will work in my Progressive machine. I love cast Boolits, but i hate not bein able to use the progressive press to the fullest potential.

I will try to make careful notes and add my 2c worth here, too. I may have a Lee 6 cavity 2r 125 modifie to remove the lube roove if this works. I want to keep up with what the cost is, too. Might as well buy jacketed or pkated if it is expensive.

I am also looking at trying to buy scrap range lead from a nearby indoor range( or two) . I use mostly wheel weights and my own recoverd handgun bullets( I am a CCH instructor, we shoot about 15k rounds a year here,just minimum for qualifying) .

This could make the dfference to a small professional like me, take shoting to a real living wage instead of a pating hobby. I can try a bunch of bullets for not much investment with the SandStrom 28a. Will advise.

[koger]

Folks, on the above mentioned rumors, had a glock 21 blow up a case, mild load, and blow a firing pin and extactor using my own cast and loaded ammo, know everything was right. Also had a drop of sweat one hot afternoon drip off my forehead when looking over the top of my casting pot, was rewarded with molten lead blown everywher, face, shirt arms, and rest of desk. Made me be more careful than ever on both respects.

[Hang Fire]

Uh, I think the above post, #472 was intended for another thread.

[olaf455]

3. I found, that the best way is to resize the boolits twice - once before and once after polymer coating. First I'm using .355 sizing die set (from CH4D) and after the painting - .356 sizing die set (Lee).

Hope this help.[/QUOTE]

What size does your barrel slug at? In other words how much smaller than your barrels bore diameter is the first sizing? What is the diameter of your bullets after the second sizing?

I am planning to powdercoat some bullets myself, and this information will be quite helpful, thank you in advance.

Olaf

[windwalker]

here in western australia we have a mob called Westcastings Projectiles
i have used there bullets and are the only ones that you can shoot at 2700 fps with the mag ones,they have a agent in the USA here is there web site you will find the usa dealer at the bottom of the page.
Bernie
http://www.rpgfirearms.com.au/WESTCASTINGS.htm

[Hang Fire]

Thanks for the info.

[Wal']

Nobody's asked the question as yet, but whats going to happen to all the home brew lube makers when this hard coat lube takes off.

And believe me, when you get to use them [hard coat lubed boolits] there won't be any going back to old liquid lube.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The coated bullets have pretty much dominated the pistol shooting scene here since the mid 90s,but there are still a lot of guys who cast their own and even some bullet makers who will supply traditional lubed plain lead boolits. Especially popular for blackpowder. The gunshops still seem to sell moulds and we have a custom mould maker that does a roaring trade.

[Wal']

You're right FFOD, but the only reason that there are still a few using the traditional lubes here is that we don't have the population here in Australia to develop a home kit to coat your own cast boolits.

But given a short time in the USofA & once this method of coating boolits with the hard cast lube [read no more sticky fingers] :bigsmyl2: takes off.

I'm sure with the sheer population in USA there will be many backyard DIY designs come on the market for us home casters.

Australia doesn't have the shooting population to develop a home design DIY hard cast luber, but the USofA sure does. :cbpour:

[Four Fingers of Death]

You can buy the same stuff the commercial casters use from Joe Ban in Sydney (he is the only supplier because he developed it himself) if you want. He is happy enough to give you all of the info you need to get er done.

Compared to producing normal lubed cast boolits, it is a huge PITA I feel, but can be done at home if you are into self flagellation, have tons of spare time and don't have enough to keep you occupied.

[Wal']

Thanks for the tip FFoD, just might track Joe down & try to come up with a DIY method of hardcast lubeing my boolits.

Thats if I can fit the time in from whipping & flogging myself in my spare moments.

Never really felt reloading & casting was a PITA myself.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks for the tip FFoD, just might track Joe down & try to come up with a DIY method of hardcast lubeing my boolits.

Thats if I can fit the time in from whipping & flogging myself in my spare moments.

Never really felt reloading & casting was a PITA myself.

What I meant was,compared to just running the boolits through a lubesizer and calling it done, the coating process is very involved and then you still have to run them through the lubesizer.

If you go back through this thread, you will see contact details for Joe. On the second or third page (I think,but don't hold me to it. Good luck.

[Wal']

Will do, but as with my earlier question regarding the liquid lubes & lubersizer's & like, if this new type of polymer lube is successful & sells well in the States the need for a lubersizer will cease.

Lees push through style of sizing will still be needed for size, but the lubersizer wont be needed.

Anyway lets wait & see how it all pan's out. :wink:

[dbarnhart]

Nobody's asked the question as yet, but whats going to happen to all the home brew lube makers when this hard coat lube takes off.

I go through about a thousand boolits every ten weeks.

Well, right now I am making my own boolits (230gr 45acp) for about $35 per thousand. If I were to go out and buy coated bullets from Bayou or someone else it looks like I'd be paying $90-$95 per thousand plus shipping.

Though I'd really like to eliminate the smoke (I shoot at an indoor range), I'm not likely to spend the extra $300 per year for coated boolits to do so.

On the other hand, if a decent home-brew kit becomes available that does not add to the cost appreciably i'm sure I'd go for it.

[leftiye]

That's my problem with the whole deal. Buying boolits because they're coated isn't much different from buying any cast boolit from a manufacturer. First and foremost, they're gonna cost too much, and more than I'll pay. Then, they won't offer the designs I want. Then they won't fit my guns, and accuracy will go south. Time to get going on paper patches it looks like. A 10% tin, 2% (no antimony) copper hollowpoint will probly take all the KITA a rifle can provide and still shoot straight, and handle anything that happens terminally.

[Silver-Silver]

I have been trying different coatings, and recently had a company make me a small sample batch to try as a bullet coating.

My question is for the coating available in Australia, after shooting 100 rounds of 9mm bullets, is there any "leading" or polymer left in the barrel? I am getting a tiny bit, less than the normal amount of leading when a conventional lube is used.

When I was shooting the molly coated bullets I was getting much more coating left behind than I currently am. I am just curious if my goal of nothing left behind was realistic.

I understand the people that say this may take too much time, I think there has to be a way to use a mold designed for tumble lubing and a bullet coating that doesn't need a special oven. This would save lots of time and would probably be the ideal setup.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have been trying different coatings, and recently had a company make me a small sample batch to try as a bullet coating.

My question is for the coating available in Australia, after shooting 100 rounds of 9mm bullets, is there any "leading" or polymer left in the barrel? I am getting a tiny bit, less than the normal amount of leading when a conventional lube is used.

When I was shooting the molly coated bullets I was getting much more coating left behind than I currently am. I am just curious if my goal of nothing left behind was realistic.

I understand the people that say this may take too much time, I think there has to be a way to use a mold designed for tumble lubing and a bullet coating that doesn't need a special oven. This would save lots of time and would probably be the ideal setup.

I have never noticed any leading at all using them. Dig the bullets out of the butt stop and the coating is invariably still intact.

[fcvan]

I've been following the boolit coating thread as this idea is of great interest. Powder coat and bake, spray on, tumble coat. These all seem like nifty ideas. Lately I've been playing with copper electroplating and getting good results. All of these things are neat to read about and fun to try. Keep it up fellas! Frank

[Four Fingers of Death]

Joe Ban the guy that invented and markets the current coatings in Australia has been in contact with me. He is now a registered member of the site. His username is HI-TEK.

He said that he already ships to several users in the States and members here might be able to access more suitable quantities from them.

Send him a PM if you are interested. Mick.

[Ausglock]

G'day HITEK.

Thanks for your coating invention. I have been using it for many years on all the Topscore projectiles I have fired through my guns.
I cast for my own use and would love to try some of your coating.
I'm in northern NSW.

Thanks.

[Hang Fire]

I am the inventor and supplier of the polymer coating used to coat Hard Cast projectiles and even Copper Plated and Jacketed ammo.
The coatings have been in use in Australia for nearly 20 years, and majority of manufacturers and small clubs all use my coatings.
It simply works without any Leading, or without any residues being left in the barrel.
The coatinsg ahve been used in Glocks, and Rifle ammo and all calibre target shooting guns.
The coating is Hi-Tek-Lube Supercoat, and is manufactured in Australia.
There are people in US who now purchase and use it, and are willing to combine shipping to assist with other manufacturers who want the coatings.
If you would like details please send me a private email and I will advise,
HI-TEK

Thanks Hi Tek for your contribution to the cast boolit game.

20 years is a long time, but I am confident polymer coated boolits will take off in the US.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I've been using the coating on a range of brands, Hawkesbury River, Silver Shadow, Top Score, Mr Lone Colt and a few others since the early 90s when I first saw them.
Thousands and thousands and thousands of bullets sent down range without any leading or other problems. I'm not interested in coating my own and will continue to cast my own and use the coated commercial bullets.

[KYCaster]

Hi Joe.

I'd really like to try some of your coating. Who would I contact in the US to get a sample? Do you have an "Official US Distributor"?

What's involved in importing to the US? What kind of quantities and cost?

I haven't been able to find anyone willing to share information.

Thank You

Jerry



Hi,
I was interested in reading your comments, that coated projectiles are a gimmick.
We have been producing and supplying coatings for Cast projectiles manufacture in Australia for about 20 years.
The coatings we make and supply, are an extremely Tough, Hard, durable, heat resistant coating, that acts like alubricant, so the alloy is not fragmented or shredded during firing at speeds from 600ft/sec to 3000ft/sec.
These coatings also can be used to coat Copper Jacketed stuff to prevent Copper fouling of Barrels.
Product is certified by independent environmental engineers that confirm that Lead alloys coated with our coatings, reduce the atomised lead emissions to same levels as Copper Coated ammo and emissions comply to both US and Australian health standards.
Recently, two US companies started to export our coating, and, they have conducted their own evaluations to determine if the stuff actually works.
Our products do not contain any PTFE, or Teflon or any such similar materials, as these type of ingredients are undesirable with ammo use.
I would wellcome your enquiries, and would be happy to provide you answers to your questions
Joe

[plamenti]

Here is a smoke test and good comparison of polymer painted boolits with lubed boolits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPqBLnRTbow&feature=em-subs_digest

[fullofdays]

How do you apply this polymer? does it require baking after it is applied?

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[Four Fingers of Death]

You need take a trip to the states Joe and set up a shop there. Lol.

[bmiller]

Joe it is great that you have arrived here! What type of projectile have you shot 3000 fps with your coating? Could your coating be used on a 223 bullet being driven 2700 fps? I shoot 3 gun and I would love to make my own projectiles for my ar-15 without resorting to swaging.

Thank you

[Four Fingers of Death]

You can now get the best coatings in the world, from Ferrara Leather Company, and Bayou Bullet Company.
The coating is from Australia, and has been used there for 20 years by manufacturers. If you need more details, send me a personal message.
Joe

Telfon used in/on bullets is quiet dangerous I have always been told, it atomises and is quiet poisionous apparently. I don't know the exact details, but it is a real no no. Check it out (or hold your breath when you shoot, lol).

[TheGunMan]

Hi all.

I contacted Dynamic Arms and they told me that they just started production in the states.

Their US site is www.dabullets.com

I just ordered box of 500 9mm to test

will update once I get them

[Silver-Silver]

Hi all.

I contacted Dynamic Arms and they told me that they just started production in the states.

I just ordered box of 500 9mm to test

will update once I get them


I would like to know about the coating they use, The coating appears completely different from what others use. You can see a small flange on the bottom of their bullets like they were all sprayed standing up and some paint ran down and stuck to the plate they were painted on.

Could you update us on how many bullets are shot before your accuracy starts to decay? Is there any residue left behind in the barrel, and how is the smoke.

Thanks