Stupid is as stupid does

[Freightman]

This was sent to me thought I would post it hope you can read it.

[jsizemore]

That's whats going to happen to your hand if you keep messin' with that dog in your avatar.

[Freightman]

She will not even bite down hard enough to crush her dog food, the dog is lazy until it comes to tree rats.

[HeavyMetal]

Can't read it to well!

Looks like a warning about setting up a M2 50 cal correctly, but I can't make out if the ammo was set off outside the gun or if the gun "popped" when it was fired.

Either way thats gonna leave a mark!

[montana_charlie]

but I can't make out if the ammo was set off outside the gun or if the gun "popped" when it was fired.
The gun was being placed in a mount, and the operator had trouble getting a pin to insert in it's hole. So, he use a loose .50 caliber round of ammunition as a hammer to drive the pin in place.

The part of a loaded round which most resembles a 'hammer face' is the head of the case...where the primer is. I suppose the idiot struck the primer against the mounting pin...changing it into a firing pin.

CM

[HeavyMetal]

Got a magnifying glass out and was able to make out the print.

So he was hammering a mounting pin with a live 50 Cal round and it went off!

Wouldn't the heavy end would be where the boolet is? Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't Ma Duce rounds available in Ball, armor piercing, incendiary, and High Explosive?

Considering the damage to the hand I'd vote for an HE round detonated rather than a primer pierced ball round.

Now my question is who got their backside "adjusted" for allowing such a mishap in the first place?

Never been in the military but just can't imagine "OOP'S" being accepted as SOP.

[montana_charlie]

They probably followed the lead of their Commander in Chief...and blamed Bush.

[Lee]

Wonder if he lived???
Can't imagine the hand was the only thing damaged.............
Not wished on anyone, no matter how stupid, or brain-locked, or inattentive, or whatever.......Lee

[lwknight]

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/50Safety.jpg

A little better copy.

The oiginal picture is larger and can be zoomed up to clear text.
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/lwknight/50Safety.jpg

If you want to read the txt clearly , you can download the imsge and zoom it up to a large size
It is high resolution even though the pixel size is kinda small.

Anyway , knowing how the internet beast works , I called BS on this one.
I can't imagine an un restrained shell going off like a grenade.
Even more so, where are the powder burns and schrapnel cuts??

I think its a machinery accident and some goof faked the entire document.

[HeavyMetal]

A fake is a distinct possibility!

[82nd airborne]

"Considering the damage to the hand I'd vote for an HE round detonated rather than a primer pierced ball round."


even a 650gr ball round will do that,,, and worse. the he rounds (Mk12 roufuss round) generally arnt loaded into m2's for just everyday stuff. someone that was trained enough to get them would probably know better. just my opinion, could be wrong tho. if a hadji is hit in the hip, it will tear the leg of and remove it and place it SEVERAL feet away.

[82nd airborne]

[IMG][IMG]http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv246/

I think its a machinery accident and some goof faked the entire document.

yeah or that, i could go for that too.

[Freightman]

A fake is a distinct possibility!
Probably so surely no one is that STUPID! I received it on email from a man stationed at Dyes AFB in Ablene, TX

[WallyM3]

Are the 50s a compressed load?

Could diving a bullet back into the case compress slow (to us) burning powder sufficiently to change its behavior enough to explode the case.

I suppose simultaneously driving the projectile into the case and detonating the primer could do it.

Just thinking through the mechanics of it.

Based on my experience in the service, yes. People can be that stupid.

[Harter66]

So my daughter is a gunners mate USN says it is up & up 48 hours after there was an inservice brief for over hour explaining all details and why it was stupid.

My son is in the neihbor hood waiting to hear back I'll bet they got the long version in country.

[Frozone]

It can be real, I know from personal experience just how stupid people can be with ammo.

Back when I was in high school, a buddy and I both got a job at a bicycle store for the summer.
The shop had a shed out back made of corrugated metal sheet that they stored the boxed new bikes in. It had a wooden work bench with minimal tool set in it for assembly of the new bikes.
(As I remember it, it would have made a good reloading bench.) Under the bench were boxes (a lot of boxes! I would say 100+) of military blank ammo. It was 30-06 cases necked down to ~ 22 and plugged with a hard substance (clay? wax?) to simulate a bullet, the darn things were at least half full of powder!

I was getting a bike to assemble when my freind, who was working in the shed that day, told me to "watch this". (Yes, any time you hear this from a person under 20 or a red neck, don't look just RUN!)
He had driven one of the blanks, neck first, into the wooden bench and was pecking on the primer with a screw driver and a hammer. I took one look, saw what was going on and did a barrel roll over the closest box just as the thing went off. Inside that shed it was deafening, and the shed was old enough that dust was everywhere, so the explosion filled the shed with 'smoke'. I made the door and turned around to see if my buddy was coming. Just about when I had decided I was going to go get him, he walked out holding his left hand in his right. He went over to a water spicket and began to wash blood off. It was then I noticed the chunks of brass sticking though his hand and fingers and took him to the hospital.

Well, he didn't loose any digits. He did have a little nerve damage from the triangular piece of brass that went into his thumb bone. All in All he was lucky.

He joined our military (Air Force) later that year, he got fired from the bike shop job.
A few years later a nuke missile blew up in it's silo ('77?) killing a few workers.
I had the most awful dream of him sitting on top of the darn thing hitting it with a hammer.
Turns out it wasn't him, but it was a 'dropped' hammer that caused the boom.

[WallyM3]

'Round here it's, "Hold my beer and watch this!"

[OBIII]

Back in the 70's, I was reloading for .357 magnum when I was in 29 Palms, CA. I had paid to have my half-brother, who was 10 at the time, flown out to stay with me for a couple of weeks. I took him out into the desert a few times, allowing him to shoot my .22 and .357. During the day when I was on the base, he would stay at my house and amuse himself. I found out after he left that he had located my .357 stash of rounds, and was using a pair of steel diagonal cutters to cut the top of the bullets off to get to the powder. He was then amusing himself with burning the powder or packing straws to make firecrackers. I guess he's lucky that the steel jawed cutters never sparked.

OB

[twotrees]

See Sign line

[WallyM3]

While driving pickup? (LOL)

Kind of a universal thing, eh?

[MtGun44]

Case ruptures at very low pressure, driving small fragments of brass at moderate
velocities. Gripping it in the hand could add a lot of powder skortching.

Unless there was an HE bulllet, this is not really what happened or is a total fake.

Folks are forever lying about what they were actually doing when a round fires,
trying to not look so stupid and not knowing that an uncontained round will NOT
explode, but sort of POOF. NRA tests with .30-06 would not penetrate a towel
layed over a bar of soap and left a minor dent in a bar of soap.

BS.

Bill

[Southern Son]

When I was about 12 s mate of mine's step father had a bunch of 38Spl ammo laying around. My mate and I were trainee amature pyrotechnicians, so we pulled the boolit from a few to get to the powder. I saw the live primer there in the bottom of the case and had a good idea (I thought it was, but I wasn't the sharpest tool in that shed). I put the case in the vise, put the sharp end of a nail on the primer and the head of a hammer on the head of the nail. Tap. Nothing. Slightly harder tap, still nothing. So I decided to stop kidding around and gave it a really good wack. The nail not only hit hard enough to set off the priming compound, but it went through the primer cup. The blast forced the primer up along the nail with enough force so that when it hit my fingers, it hurt, alot. In fact, it hurt enought that I have never thought about doing it again. My mate thought it was funny though. The bastard nearly wet himself laughing at me while I was running around the shed shaking my hand and swearing.

[Lee]

Yeah, really, my suspicions are that the entire hand would be missing, not just the shredded appearance in the picture. As for the statement that it was real and was disseminated by the Armed Forces??? Well, sometime a little exaggeration is worth a lot of warning.....
I mean, even nitro-obama has been known to exaggerate a little to make a point, right??

[AviatorTroy]

Yea plus the powder in a .50 BMG case is extremely slow burning. I don't think it would do that. I think a detonator or very small piece of det cord or something like that with a HIGH velocity charge would tho.

[mroliver77]

Whatever was the cause of the injury it had quite a bit of power. Like others I cannot imagine a round going off like that without something to contain the whole affair long enough for it to get the pressure to light off. I have thrown live "duds" into a fire and let them cook off. A nice bang but nothing extreme. Before I am blamed for being a Bubba too I put rounds in a box, dropped them into a nice wood fire and got way back before the box even began to burn. It took 5 - 10 min before the event.
Whatever happend I wish the best for "Lefty".
Jay

[John 242]

It's been a couple of days since my unit returned from JRTC (the Joint Readiness Training Center) at Fort Polk. While out in "the box" we were getting ready for a mission when one the guys was having a problem mounting a .50 cal M2 in a vehicle mount (Mod 93). As he was struggling with the pin trying to drive it into place someone mentioned not to use a .50 cal round to hammer it into place, in a joking kind of way.
The comment kind of took me aback, after all, what retard would use a .50 cal round as a hammer... well... yesterday was the first time I saw this thread and now I know where that comment came from.

I can't vouch for the authenticity of the above safety message, but the word is out about this incident real or otherwise.

As far as a .50 cal round being able to do the damage in the picture by detonating...
I'll err on the side that it's possible. There's a lot of powder in one of those cases. A lot more powder than any other small arms cartridge. Slow burning or not... I wouldn't want a .50 cal round to detonate anywhere near me, thanks.

That's a lot of damage, but fingers wrapped tightly around the case while being pounded against a pin... maybe.

By the way the rounds showed in the photo appear to be API rounds. They look like they have silver tips.

[lwknight]

I still think it looked more like he stuck his hand between the tracks and rollers of a tank.

[MT Gianni]

Even Bill Cosby used to joke about the bullet in the furnace.

[ErikT]

During my time in the Army, I worked with a guy who was stupid enough to attempt opening a large crate of mortar rounds with an AXE. Fortunately someone noticed before he got his third swing in and stopped him, but we later found out that the second swing had penetrated the wood crate, the plastic shell container within, and left a nice gash in the nose of one mortar round. He didn't work in the ammo compound anymore.

[Southern Son]

Even Bill Cosby used to joke about the bullet in the furnace.

"I didn't put the bullet in the fire and stop talking about my mother!!!!"

He was a great stand up funny man, much better at that than the TV shows and cartoons. I think that Fat Alberts Car is one of the funniest skits ever done.

[RugerFan]

A fake is a distinct possibility!

I have also received this through official channels at work. Definitely not a fake.

[starbits]

Probably so surely no one is that STUPID!

I was called on an incident once for a 60mm WP mortar. Kids had beat the **** out of the fuze trying to set it off. Fortunately for them fuzes are idiot proofed and require setback to arm. When that didn't work one of them smacked the back end onto something and set off the primer. The propellant had been removed, but the primer flash did a good job of taking off his fingers.

Yes there are lots of people that stupid.


Starbits

[lwknight]

And just how do you know that official channels cannot be duped by some zealous over imaginative safety man?
If its true that the accident was the result of an explosion then it must have been something different than a 50 bmg.

What if it were common fireworls that they were messing with and the military was just embarrassed to admit it. I set off an " Artillary Rocket " from a regular firework stand on the ground instead of letting it go up into the air. I learned that those things are very powerful and certainly could blow a hand off . We all know that lies and cover ups exist.

I wish I had some 50 bmg ammo to stuff into a chicked and shoot the primers with a BB gun just to see if it really could blow up the chicken. It might make the dumplins taste kinda funny though.

[Avery Arms]

BMG casings are made from about 1/8th of a pound of thick brass and have gigantic primers as well as extremely heavy crimps on the bullets to prevent setback when fed through an M2.

I believe an unsupported BMG round could burst and cause a severe hand injury (maybe not that bad I don't know). The smaller .30/06 type rounds will not because they are thin and have little or no crimp to keep the bullet in place.


PP

[RugerFan]

And just how do you know that official channels cannot be duped by some zealous over imaginative safety man? You can't be serious.
If its true that the accident was the result of an explosion then it must have been something different than a 50 bmg. You have no idea what you're talking about. As you indicated below, you don't know what happens when a .50 BMG round is set off outside a chamber, so why make the statement?

What if it were common fireworls that they were messing with and the military was just embarrassed to admit it. I'm speechless. I set off an " Artillary Rocket " from a regular firework stand on the ground instead of letting it go up into the air. I learned that those things are very powerful and certainly could blow a hand off . We all know that lies and cover ups exist. Cover up? What would be the point here? The reason for the DoD WIDE safety message was to keep other soldiers from potentially doing the same dumb thing. Take off the foil hat already

I wish I had some 50 bmg ammo to stuff into a chicked and shoot the primers with a BB gun just to see if it really could blow up the chicken. It might make the dumplins taste kinda funny though.

.....

[lwknight]

Yes , anything that comes from the upper echelon is always the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

RIIIIGHT!!

The reason that I don't buy it is that there are no powder burns. Black soot should be all over everything.

[RugerFan]

Yes , anything that comes from the upper echelon is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

RIIIIGHT!!

Never said nor implied such. It’s just that wildly unsubstantiated conspiracy theories tend to get under my skin.
.....

[RugerFan]

The reason that I don't buy it is that there are no powder burns. Black soot should be all over everything.

First of all let me say that I’m really not trying to be combative with you. If my posts appear as such I apologize. I may need another cup of coffee.

As for powder burns, we don’t know if any damaged/burned flesh was removed before the pic was taken. Since I’m not an experienced combat trauma surgeon, I’m not going to speculate what this wound “should” look like.

.....

[376Steyr]

FWIW, this incident is showing up on various official Army websites. If its a hoax, it seems to be at least a believable one.

[canyon-ghost]

Guys, there's a thread on this site called "A very, very bad day at the range" that shows a 50 BMG explosion. I think it was in California because they outlawed the 50 BMG. The shooter was fireforming 50s to something else when the action stuck open, then he struck it with the heel of his hand. The primer set off 'out of battery' as the military term goes. The explosion took off fingers and stuck brass shell casing in the man's forhead. Look it up on search, if you like.

Ron

[wiljen]

I think it is a fake. I cannot find any "Weapon Safety Messages" on any of the mil sites nor can anyone I know on base confirm it. It just looks like an industrial accident to me.

[leadman]

Also, it was mentioned a rock was involved. Was he using the 50BMG case a a punch while hitting it with the rock?

[John 242]

I think it is a fake. I cannot find any "Weapon Safety Messages" on any of the mil sites nor can anyone I know on base confirm it. It just looks like an industrial accident to me.

After the long weekend I made it a point to look around our offices and that exact safety message is posted all over the place.
We have one up on our safety board and there are a couple more put up here and there. Although I don't have e-mail or website from which it came, I would bet it came down from 'higher' on the global e-mail.
I was really bussy today otherwise I would have found out more about where that message exactly came from... maybe tomorrow.

There are several Army safety websites that you can only access if you have a AKO account. I'll check and see if I can find it.

[John 242]

After a little ressearch on AKO I couldn't find anything. I Googled it and the gist of what I read says that this was sent out via the NIPR net and the message's email chain came from the Deputy Director of Safety USFOR-A.
What I know for a fact is that the message is on our safety board.

[wiljen]

Still doesnt Jibe. That injury looks like a crush injury, no burn what so ever present.

[462]

Is there a doctor on the forum?

In the meantime, some questions:

Wouldn't igniting a rather big primer and a hefty amount of powder leave some indication of a burn, even after the wound has been cleaned?

Is it impossible to post a fake notice on a military computer system?

Is it impossible for a military safety officer to be duped by a bogus picture?

Has the military publicly responded, in any manner, to this?

Is this the only civilian website that has this picture?

I'm keeping an open mind, but the more I think about it the more the injury seems to have been caused by something else.

[lwknight]

Guys, there's a thread on this site called "A very, very bad day at the range" that shows a 50 BMG explosion. I think it was in California because they outlawed the 50 BMG. The shooter was fireforming 50s to something else when the action stuck open, then he struck it with the heel of his hand. The primer set off 'out of battery' as the military term goes. The explosion took off fingers and stuck brass shell casing in the man's forhead. Look it up on search, if you like.

Ron

In that case the round was chambered and the bolt was closed but not locked in battery.
The bolt did more damage than the gasses IIRC.

[John 242]

Is there a doctor on the forum?

In the meantime, some questions:
Let me opine...

Wouldn't igniting a rather big primer and a hefty amount of powder leave some indication of a burn, even after the wound has been cleaned?
I would think so, but don't know.

Is it impossible to post a fake notice on a military computer system?
Sure is, but before they pushed the info down they would likely have some kind of a report in front of them. The incident supposedly occured in country in one of their subordinate units. They would have received reports about it from the command that was involved possibly including a 15-6 investigation. Just my speculation, though.

Is it impossible for a military safety officer to be duped by a bogus picture?
See above about reporting

Has the military publicly responded, in any manner, to this?
Beats me. Somebody could call the VOIP number and ask about all this... or a PAO.

Is this the only civilian website that has this picture?
No, there are a few others. Just Google Weapons Safety Message 10-02 and you'll get hits.

I'm keeping an open mind, but the more I think about it the more the injury seems to have been caused by something else.
Could be... I just work here. :D

Interesting either way...

[RugerFan]

Beats me. Somebody could call the VOIP number and ask about all this... or a PAO.

There is also a DSN number. I called that number and spoke with a rep at the USFOR-A Safety office. He confirmed the validity of the message. Anyone with a Class "A" govt DSN line can make the call and check.


.....

[Lee]

Time to pony up. I suffered an explosive hand injury farther back than I would care to admit. And the picture just really doesn't jibe to me, either. Looks more like a crush/gear/sprocket/chain injury. There's just too much "stuff" there. Explosions are just that. Parts and pieces fly away, never to be seen again.
IT'S AN EXPLOSION, STUFF JUST VAPORIZES. SOMETIMES, SOMETIMES BURN MARKS RESULT, NOT ALWAYS.
AND SORRY, BUT IMHO THAT IS NOT AN EXPLOSION, BURST CASE, WHATEVER.

Capitals are for emphasis only, not for shouting.

My $0.02....................

Now I got another resurrected nightmare to bury back down.

[smilie=6:Ahhh well.....[smilie=6:

[missionary5155]

Good morning
At Ft. Hood 1972 a DD E6 sargent was out on the 40MM grenade range looking for duds. Near an old target Sherman he came across what he thought was an inert practice round and after looking it over gave it a slight kick in the tail section. Moving it a bit he decided to kick it closer to the pile. Well the story goes it was an older HE and the E6 lost his kicking foot and was well ventelated.
Everyone I knew who got hurt on an M60A1 MBT was not a Newby. They each broke one of the Highly Stressed Rules and paid the price. Worst case I know of was the 2nd LT. who at a machinegun range used the barrel of a Caliber.50 M85 cupalo mounted machine gun to pull himself up onto the turret. The tank commander had failed to fire the last two rounds of the 50 round belt and had failed to properly clear the weapon in the confined cupulo area. The 2nd LT. platoon leader had climbed up to converse with the TC who was standing on top of the turret. By pulling on the barrel the M85 fired the first round which penetrated the LTs throat. As he was falling backwards still holding the barrel the second round fired hitting him in the face.
Accidents happen... Thats why we all need to have SOPs and strive to follow them. No I am not perfect. I am prone also to do the dumb act and get away with it... But I sure do hope I am atuned enough to reality to realise what I just did best not be repeated.
Mike in Peru

[MtGun44]

Let's see, two rounds of 50 BMG point blank to head and neck.
Game over. A very serious error, I am certainly sorry that he made this error.

I still do not believe that the hand injuries pictured resulted from an fully uncontained ignition
of a round of ball .50 BMG. Far too much damage unless something contained the
case to increase pressures.

To repeat myself; the same event with .30-06 (yes, much smaller, but similar pressures and velocities
should be developed) under NRA official testing reslted in:

1) fragments of brass and case head and bullet did NOT penetrate ordinary corragated
cardboard box at approx 10" range.

2) bar of soap covered by an ordinary terrycloth towel which the cartridge was laying
directly on when electrically fired had a very minor dent.

Hand damage pictured is completely inconsistent with uncontained burning/case rupture
of small arms ammunition.

People injuring themselves with small arms frequently lie about the actual events to
mitigate their embarrassment or culpability in the actual events, due to their mistaken
belief that the uncontained cartridge produces FAR more actual kinetic energy than they
actually do. Uninformed people find these claims plausible and repeat them.


Examples are "a .22 LR round went off in a man's pocket when it got across a 9V
battery, and he was wounded in the leg by the bullet which penetrated several inches"
"Child shot in hand by dropped .38 Spl cartridge, bullet penetrated hand"

etc, etc, etc. ALL NOT TRUE, ballistically impossible.
Bill