New Lube

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I was playing around with some different lubes today. I came up with this:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/d94b06ea.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/2a902d87.jpg

Yes, it's "evil black".

It works very well - no matter how bad I mess up a bullet - undersize, oversize, whatnot - I still cannot get any leading, just a bit of powder fouling that comes out easily with a bore snake.

It's made from copper and graphite and used in a tumble lube process that keeps the graphite trapped and everything clean.

Has anyone else done anything similar?

Thanks,

Josh

[geargnasher]

Interesting. I have a few questions.

1. How's the accuracy compared to other lube methods in the same gun?

2. How the heck do you apply it?

3. How does it hold up in the through recoil in the magazine, up the feed ramp, etc.? Does it slough off or flake?

4. Why the powdered copper?

I've never seen anything quite like it, although there are several commercial companies making dry coated lead-alloy boolits using epoxy resins and other things.

Gear

(edit) ok a guess: You mix Future brand floor wax with motor mica or lube-grade powdered graphite and tumble the boolits until dry. I did that once (sans copper) just to see what would happen, but was unhappy with my process so I never even shot them.

[Rickk]

Interesting! I would like to hear more details. Have one boolit that is leading pretty bad with LTL.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I was going to keep this to myself until I was sure it was working as intended.

Accuracy is much improved. In my gun that's not saying much - I'm having trouble with my loads at this point, but it seems to be a separate issue to the lube. Suffice to say this lube improved things somewhat, but I'm having troubles elsewhere I'm still trying to identify. I'm getting a 10" spread with this lube at 25yds; other lubes missed the paper completely, but Gold Dots go into inch, inch-and-a-half groups at the same distance. After I slug the barrel again and check all measurements, I'll make a separate post to address the issue if I can't resolve it.

Anyway, on to the lube:

1. Visit your local auto parts store.

2. Buy Copper Coat. It's used to coat head gaskets and contains copper in an excellent carrier base which dries quickly.

3. Buy ultra fine powdered graphite.

4. Put the bullets to be lubed into a pan and spray the copper coat onto them, and shake the pan for even coating. I am using disposable aluminum bread pans.

5. Immediately dump them into a container that can be shaken. I have a largish yogurt container I'm using.

6. Sprinkle a bit of graphite onto them.

7. Shake.

8. Check to see if coating is complete; add if needed. Don't go overboard.

9. Pour back into pan to let dry for 30 minutes.

10. Pour into another pan lined with paper towels. Shake back and forth. This removes any excess graphite; there should not be a lot at all.

You're done. Ten easy steps, and a lot less time than Alox.

Since I'm working with a new mould that seems to cast bullets which have excellent accuracy to 15 yards and then don't hit much at 25yds, I would be very interested in others' results on proven loads.

Feedback will help me tune the mixture and hopefully come up with a suspension that only requires the steps that Alox does. I'm still trying to find some molybdenum disulphide to throw into the mix, or possibly replace the graphite.

The experiment is ongoing.

I should mention that I have strong backgrounds in auto mechanics, chemistry, gunsmithing and alchemy :D If you're unsure of something, give me a shout and we'll look at it together. I doubt this little experiment will take a gun apart, but I found that extreme leading occurred with either the copper or the graphite alone.

I believe what's happening is that the copper and graphite are sliding against each other and fusing into a jacket of sorts under heat and pressure while protecting the lead bullet. A recovered bullet still had a hard(ish) black shell on its base.

Anyway, help with the experiment would be appreciated!

Thanks folks!

Josh

[Elkins45]

Interesting, but I seem to recall Dean Grinnell and others recommending against using graphite in bullet lube because it is mildly abrasive.

[Josh Smith]

That's why I'd like to replace it with molybdenum disulphide when I run across it.

However, I really can't see very fine graphite being a problem with anything approaching normal shooting. I would hazard a guess that jacketed bullets are at least as abrasive as is very fine graphite.

Josh

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Use less. That was the original application, and I added too much graphite. It should be just a light dusting.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/3cc55a71.jpg
Best application as compared to a .22LR bullet, which also uses a graphite suspension.

Makes it prettier and cuts down on bore ash even more.

Josh

P.S. Remember folks, smokeless powder has graphite for flowing properties. I wouldn't really worry about it hurting the bore (there have been some questions here and on some other boards, PMed and posted). J.S.

[geargnasher]

Graphite "lubricates" by shearing, like motor mica, in other words it slips very easlily over itself. If it gets too thin, down to one crystal thick, galling can occur. Graphite isn't as abrasive as antimony or plain paper, so I wouldn't be too concerned even if it has a light polishing effect when used per your method.

See if you can get your issues ironed out with a more standard lube so you have a benchmark with lead boolits and then compare to your new method apples-to-apples.

Gear

[243winxb]

I'm getting a 10" spread with this lube at 25yds; other lubes missed the paper completely, :-)First you need to find a base line with normal lubes/bullets, then try your new lube. This shot 13" - 10 shot group @ 50 yds. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/IMG_4693T.jpg [smilie=l:

[geargnasher]

WOW! It's amazing how well some things will work, sometimes even more amazing is what DOESN'T work when it SHOULD.

Were those rifled .452" RBs or plain?:kidding: And looka those precision sights!

Gear

[Edubya]

Maybe you could just put some of the "new lube" on those cannon balls since you already have an established base line.

EW

[Josh Smith]

The bullets weren't working with OTHER lube, folks.

[wiljen]

Ok, I'll bite. I have a model 28 6" that with full wadcutters coated with LLA or felix lube will average a 10 shot 1 hole cluster. If I send you 50, will you coat them and return them and I'll do the side by side test with all 3 lubes and even clean the gun in between them.

[Edubya]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy some Copper Coat and fine graphite and make your own test than sending 50 boolits back and forth? 'Sides, we all need to try it on our own inorder to give him some real feedback.

Joshua, I mean no insult by saying that your boolit that is giving 10" groups with any lube is not what is the accepted norm. When it was said that you need to get that boolit working in order to set a benchmark, I think that 90% of us nodded our heads in agreement. If 10" is your accepted norm, so be it. But as bad of a pistol shooter as I am, I am not going to accept anything over 4" with any pistol/boolit/lube combination. I can keep my rounds inside of an 8" plate, off hand with my little double action .38 2" 642 (off-hand) all day long @ 25 yds.

EW

[wiljen]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy some Copper Coat and fine graphite and make your own test than sending 50 boolits back and forth?


Could be, but if it averages 10" groups in my guns, I don't have a use for a ton of copper coat.

[runfiverun]

if the worse thing ever mailed between members here were 50 boolits the post office would close down.
how's about 50 one way then back then the used ones re-mailed? b.t.d.t..
a baseline can be established more than one way.
heck i could send some moly lube somewhere,or some of the other three or four concoctions iv'e made.


a simple tumble lube recipe is 3 parts jpw to one b-wax stir in small amount of graphite [not necessary]
and tumble lube with warm lube then sit and wait they will harden and lube well.
or recluses 45/45/10 lube.
it could just be boolit fit and the coating made them slightly larger and they fit slightly better.
heck try 3 coats if they keep shooting better you need more diameter.

[Josh Smith]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy some Copper Coat and fine graphite and make your own test than sending 50 boolits back and forth? 'Sides, we all need to try it on our own inorder to give him some real feedback.

Joshua, I mean no insult by saying that your boolit that is giving 10" groups with any lube is not what is the accepted norm. When it was said that you need to get that boolit working in order to set a benchmark, I think that 90% of us nodded our heads in agreement. If 10" is your accepted norm, so be it. But as bad of a pistol shooter as I am, I am not going to accept anything over 4" with any pistol/boolit/lube combination. I can keep my rounds inside of an 8" plate, off hand with my little double action .38 2" 642 (off-hand) all day long @ 25 yds.

EW

Hello, exactly.

The pistol will do about 1.5" to 2" with Speer Gold Dot.

This process actually partially came from the need to make a tumble lube which works quickly.

I'm trying to iron out exactly what the problem is with the bullet - I'm thinking it's too hard and I have located pure medical lead that I can have for free - but for now, there is a problem and it needs solved.

I will push these things a bit faster tomorrow and see if that solves the problem.

I see no evidence of keyholing, the barrel slugs good and the bullets measure good and weigh well, but something is definitely amiss.

They do weigh 240gn or so instead of the 230gn Lee advertises, so I may have to get a faster spin on them until I get the new lead.

Bears experimenting.

At any rate, I stumbled across this small discovery while trying to get boolits from a new mould to shoot right, and figured I'd share.

Josh

[geargnasher]

Hello, exactly.

The pistol will do about 1.5" to 2" with Speer Gold Dot. That doesn't qualify as any kind of benchmark except your shooting ability, since the Gold Dots are NOT the same as your cast boolits.

This process actually partially came from the need to make a tumble lube which works quickly. Recluse's lube dries in about 45 minutes with a fan. Not saying you shouldn't try other things, just that it would likely solve your lube issues if everything else were in order.

I'm trying to iron out exactly what the problem is with the bullet - I'm thinking it's too hard and I have located pure medical lead that I can have for free - but for now, there is a problem and it needs solved. What is your bhn now? "Medical lead" could be anything from x-ray shielding to isotope containers to pure lead isotope shielding bricks.

I will push these things a bit faster tomorrow and see if that solves the problem.

I see no evidence of keyholing, the barrel slugs good and the bullets measure good and weigh well, but something is definitely amiss.

They do weigh 240gn or so instead of the 230gn Lee advertises, so I may have to get a faster spin on them until I get the new lead.

Bears experimenting.

At any rate, I stumbled across this small discovery while trying to get boolits from a new mould to shoot right, and figured I'd share.

Josh

Josh, keep experimenting. I still say the thing to do is go with a known good lube and get that gun shooting as well as the Gold Dots with your cast with as little leading as you can, THEN try the lube. Otherwise, you're just putting a Band-Aid on the real problem.

I've got three cans of K&W Copper Coat sitting on a shelf over my toolbox at work and a can of graphite too boot. I think I might give this a try.

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Hi Gear,

1. Yep, just proves it's not the weapon. Just making sure. I moved from Lee Alox, which was working very well but was slow to dry. The Alox didn't shoot any better.

2. I'll look at Recluse's lube. However, I'm almost certain it's not a lubing problem. I loaded up 50 rounds with a small drop in powder (from 5.2gn to 4.9gn) and left the crimp off. We'll see how that runs.

3. Lead from dental X-Ray. Shielding lead.

Thanks,

Josh

[Elkins45]

1. Lyman sells powdered molybdenum disulfide for tumbling bullets.
2. If there's that much of a difference in accuracy between the jacketed bullets and the cast ones then it really makes me suspect your cast ones are undersized and rattling down the bore. You may need to 'beagle' your mold to get some extra diameter.
3. Does it shoot any cast bullet well? Have you tried and store-bought cast bullets in this gun?

[Josh Smith]

Ok, improved the loads so the groups are now improved.

1. Got consistency going with the alloy. The bullets weigh 230gn +/- 1gn (best I could do) and I rejected everything that wasn't as perfect as I could make it.

2. Reduced the powder charge to 4.9gn +/- .1gn.

3. Switched to Fed 155 primers.

4. And I believe this is the biggie - I did away with the Lee FCD. No crimp is on this these things, and it looks like it was taking the bullets down from my preferred .452" to .451" or so. I didn't feel contact but examined the cases very closely - there was a bit of a spot where it contacted.

Baseline accuracy with this pistol (my own, built on an RIA frame and slide) is 1.5" at 25 yards with Speer Gold Dot, 230gn.

Here are the results of the bullets coated with Alox:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/7de4fb0b.jpg
One, 10 shot group was fired. I had two fliers: one was me and marked as such, and the other, I don't know. There are nine shots on target.

Here are the results of the JS Lube (I'm calling it that for lack of a better name):

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/d66a3cbd.jpg
Two, five shot groups were fired simply because I could get actual groups. One flier, and that was called. I shot while coming out of recoil.

I should be able to reduce these groups even more once I get the alloy just right, and more importantly, consistent from lot to lot. These groups were fired from the same lot of bullets.

I'd like to see if others have the same results, as well as the reduced leading.

Thanks,

Josh

[anachronism]

I think you'd better read the MSDS for Copper Coat. This stuff is bad news if inhaled, and you're adding it to lead & exposing it to conditions it has never been tested under, heat, flame & pressure.

[geargnasher]

I think you'd better read the MSDS for Copper Coat. This stuff is bad news if inhaled, and you're adding it to lead & exposing it to conditions it has never been tested under, heat, flame & pressure.

Hmmmm, heat, flame, and pressure, sounds just like the conditions in which it was designed to operate: Cylinder head gasket sealant!

Now I'm sure it's toxic, but have you read the ingredients? Just copper and petroleum distillates. Not any worse than shooting J-words, plus when it dries all the carcenogenic solvents are gone. I've read the MSDS on lead styphnate and it makes me want to go back to the flintlock!

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Agreed!

I've dealt with Copper Coat in the auto technology field, and that's the reason I picked it for the base and carrier. It impressed me then and continues to do so today.

Just don't use it on rubberized head gaskets (like Fel-Pro) and you'll do just fine.

Josh

[geargnasher]

"Just don't use it on rubberized head gaskets (like Fel-Pro) and you'll do just fine."

Roger that, and don't use it on intake manifold gaskets that take lengthy thermal excursions, either.

Gear

[Recluse]

Hell, I'm getting an education on boolit lube AND auto-mechanics on not only the same board, but the same THREAD.

Is this not a great site or what?

Josh, I've forever said that whatever we do when it comes to casting boolits and reloading, that we have a myriad of tools at our disposal and that it's up to us to figure out how to best take advantage of them. So long as it's safe to you, firearm, and nearby property, I'm not sure there is a wrong way to do anything. Just that some ways will work better with others.

Keep at it and see where it takes. you.

:coffee:

[geargnasher]

Recluse, I like the way you describe different techniques/processes/materials as "Tools" in our inventory. A good example is with a 1911 I recently doped out for cast. I got it shooting straight and found the powder it liked, but it was the only automatic that had ever given me chambering issues due to lube buildup after a couple of magazines. I tried adjusting seating depth, boolit style, etc to no avail, finally I rumaged around in my "toolbox", pulled out that instrument called 45/45/10 and Presto! problem solved. It smokes more, but no more lube buildup or cycling issues, and it still shoots straight and only leads a tiny bit at the beginning of the lands, no major issue.

Gear

[Recluse]

Recluse, I like the way you describe different techniques/processes/materials as "Tools" in our inventory.

Gear

Well, just the way I've been looking at a lot of things for a lot of years, ranging from flying to boating to shooting to even my former line of work. We have tools, which can be physical things, techniques, combinations of the two, experience can be a tool, advice, memory, etc etc.

They are all there for the choosing and using--how we choose to use them is up to us.

I have a 1911 in which that same 45/45/10 blend is about the only thing that will cause it to lead the least. Tried every other type of lube, and it leads like mad.

Likewise, I view water-dropping as a tool, same as heat treating. And on and on.

:coffee:

[Freightman]

Copper and graphite here and paint in another thread, you people don't quit I am going to have to set up a bed at the range just to test all this new stuff. This is the best edjumacation site on the webb

[anachronism]

And that just about does it for me here.

[Josh Smith]

Anachronism, you lost me.

[geargnasher]

Don't mind, Josh, sometimes you get spit on when you try something different.

Gear

[Recluse]

Anachronism, you lost me.


Don't mind, Josh, sometimes you get spit on when you try something different.

Gear

Don't worry, Josh, he (anachronism) lost me too.

What happened? I see his name (anachronism) in all lower case, "guest" underneath and n/a for post count. Did he get punted or is there a glitch on his end?

I didn't see anything he'd said or written that looked over the top--I miss something?

Back to the discussion. . .

I was told early on that casting boolits is a mystical art and that mixing and developing lube concoctions was nothing short of pure Black Voodoo. I believe it.

It's also why I believe that what works superb for one gun/boolit/load combination may completely fall flat for another gun/boolit/load combination. I use what works and move forward.

Looks like you've got something showing good promise for you, Josh. Let us know how it goes.

:coffee:

[geargnasher]

Recluse, I think he quit, his profile didn't look like that yesterday. I've seen several posts where he was vaguely grousing about something or other.

I'm wondering if I can make my .45 TL truncated cone mould work with this stuff, it sure doesn't work with anything other than Felix so far, and it's a pain to use with the microgrooves. Also I have a .45 acp that likes fat boolits.

Gear

[Edubya]

Gear, all that ya gotta do is make some of them BHN 29 boolits and you'll get those 1.0 MOA out to 300 yards. :kidding:

EW

[runfiverun]

and the other brand [fed] of primers uses aluminum spagnate, styphnate whatever.
might explain why different brands can influence accuracy,, through ignition characteristics.

[geargnasher]

Gear, all that ya gotta do is make some of them BHN 29 boolits and you'll get those 1.0 MOA out to 300 yards. :kidding:

EW

I have a new keyboard on order that has a custom "1/2"" key where "left alt" is and a "100-yard" key where "right alt" is, and I can program a macro that will puke out "my secret homeade lube" with "shift+F2". That ought to put me up there with the Ph,D casters!

Reminds me of a Brad Paisely song about how much cooler some folks are on line.

Gear

[leadman]

I used to use alot of the K&W? Copper Coat in the can with the cotton applicator that you wiped it on the gasket with. Would not want to use that as it had alot of glue in it.
The spray must be different in some way.

I think the painted boolits in the other thread are much prettier though. Bet the go faster too. LOL

[geargnasher]

Ok, I took some .45 TC TL boolits to work today and did this: Stood them up on some waxed paper, misted them with Copper Coat until just barely coated evenly, then dusted them good with graphite and rolled them around, looks promising except I can't figure out how you load these without scraping half the stuff off. Maybe I didn't do it right. They look good, though, nice smooth finish.

Gear

[Josh Smith]

Hi Gearnasher,

I don't worry about it, except for what is in the grooves. If you're scraping it off, you've used too much and what remains will suffice just fine.

I think you'll like the results! :)

Josh

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I found a way to speed up the process, blend the ingredients better and make it better adhere to the bullet.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/5df335a8.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/220d13ab.jpg

In handling these now, I am not getting any black on my hands. This comes from handling them to box, and in reloading 50 last night.

I'll release the refined process if there's interest and if the rounds don't leave lead in the barrel after test firing these 50 today.

They do not look good in macro photos; they are flat pretty when seen in person. A nice, shiny black color.

Josh

[Edubya]

Josh, I for one am interested. It's not unusual to have resistance to change, it's a common frailty of human nature. Your idea has merit as you have proven, carry on and keep us posted.

EW

[Josh Smith]

The results of firing 50 rounds, 25 or so of which are on this target

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/reloading/ade61f4c.jpg
All the target reflects is a point of aim this time around, as I know how my pistol will shoot. Range on this was 30yds.

I only set up the target to have something to aim at so that I wouldn't feel like I was wasting components. It was waaaay too hot to go prone. Could have fried an egg out there and I could barely touch my magazines which had been laying in the sun (no good shade).

Firing 50 rounds was not any more dirty than firing five rounds - I checked every five rounds to see how dirty it was getting. I had a small strip of lead exactly once, and that was most likely due to a bullet with a flaw I shouldn't have let get by.

This makes the pistol less dirty than before the refined process, and I was able to clean the bore with two passes of a dry bore snake.

If anyone wants a group, I'll shoot one rested at 25 yards when it cools off. I expect two or three inches as indicated by other, rested groups.

The experiment seems to be a success in cleanliness however.

Refined method, should you want to play around with it:

1. Spray bullets with Copper Coat.

2. Put in a container and shake a bit.

3. Add powdered graphite and shake. Do not let the Copper Coat dry beforehand.

4. Check to see that everything is coated in a decent manner.

5. Put in a rotary (not vibratory) tumbler for 30 minutes or so it takes the copper coat to dry. The tumbler should be lined on the bottom and around the sides with paper towel. This will allow the excess to come off and a more even coat to be distributed.

Josh

P.S. A coffee can made up the same way, rolled around a bit, will have the same effect if you lack the rotary tumbler. J.S.

[geargnasher]

I'm still looking at the batch I did a while back. Might have to shoot some of those sooner or later.

Gear

[noylj]

Sorry, spent about 20 years dealing with aerospace materials including lubricants. The busses that take the birds up in space and the birds themselves use bi-and tri-phenyl phosphates and silicone (oils and greases) and graphite and moly sollid lubes.
Graphite is abrasive? It is one of the better solid lubricants and is used quite often in space. MoS2 is also used, but is used by burnishing/polishing the surface.
If graphite is abrasive, then talc and mica must be murder (oh, that's right, they are bullet lubes, aren't they?)

[geargnasher]

Yes, and you can cut steel and basalt with plain water. It's all about working withing the physical limits of the materials, and I see no problem with JMS's dry lube either.

Gear

[Elkins45]

Sorry, spent about 20 years dealing with aerospace materials including lubricants. The busses that take the birds up in space and the birds themselves use bi-and tri-phenyl phosphates and silicone (oils and greases) and graphite and moly sollid lubes.
Graphite is abrasive? It is one of the better solid lubricants and is used quite often in space. MoS2 is also used, but is used by burnishing/polishing the surface.
If graphite is abrasive, then talc and mica must be murder (oh, that's right, they are bullet lubes, aren't they?)

Are they?I'm not aware of any talc-based bullet lubes. What are they?

[mroliver77]

I dont know of talc in a boolit lube but I dusted my TL plinkers with it before I got some mica. I was warned of abrasive quality of talc but decided that since it was fine on our babies rump it should not be too nasty in my barrel either. I have never found any damage from talc or mica. Actually I am sure the boolits were better with the application of either.
Jay

[geargnasher]

Let me put this in perspective. In order to even polish a rifle barrel, I have fired 25-30 boolits through it that were embedded with 400-grit valve grinding compound and even had the lube grooves filled with it. You would't believe how tough it is to abrade barrel metal.

If you're worried about the abrasiveness of graphite or talc, you should do some hardness testing of primer residue.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i'd be more worried about jewlers rouge or walnut media going down my bbls.
than i ever would of motor mica, or graphite especially fine grade colloidal or lock graphite.

[noylj]

From the MSDS:
Component CAS ACGIH OSHA OTHER %
NUMBER TLV PEL LIMITS
Heptane 142-82-5 500 ppm 400 ppm NE >4-84
Copper(suspended) 7440-50-8 1 mg/m³ 1 mg/m³ NE <10
Glycerol ester of wood rosin 65997-13-9 3 mg/m³ NE NE <10
Rubber 9003-55-8 NE NE NE 11-21

So it is basically something like 80% suspended copper and 15% rubber

[Josh Smith]

Yup. Nothing that would hurt anything. Checked the MSDS before buying it.

Josh

[Josh Smith]

Hey Gear, what happened when you fired these? Or did you get around to it?

(Going through the archives to see if I missed anything on some other subjects.)

Regards,

Josh