Leverguns for CAS shooting

[Harry O]

I have been shooting CAS for a few years now. There are problems (malfunctions of some kinds) with some guns in every match.

From my informal observation, the leverguns least likely to have any problems during the match are the Uberti 1873 Winchester clones. The Marlin 1894 is the next best. I have seen a few problems with them, but they are few and far between. Both are the most common leverguns seen, too.

The Uberti 1866 clones seem to have a lot of problems. There are very few of the Uberti Henry clones, so I don't have a good feel on how reliable they are, but the few I have seen seem to have problems. We have had a few of the newest Rossi 92 clones recently and there seems to be numerous problems with them. I hope that they work out those problems. I would like to get one if they ever offer it in 38-40.

I don't have any way of knowing how many of the malfunctions are gun problems, how many are reload problems, and how many are people problems. What is other peoples experience with leverguns in CAS shooting?

[McLintock]

Well, I've been in CAS about 12-13 years now and seen a lot of malfunctions in rifles over the years. I think a lot of them have to do with the reloads, and even some of the CAS specific loads by ammo makers. Generally, the trend has been towards lighter and lighter loads and lighter bullets for whatever caliber you're shooting. Lighter bullets mean shorter bullets and shorter Over all lengths (OAL) often mean malfunctions in lever guns. All the loads they were originally designed for, 25-20, 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40 were made to a specific OAL and the carriers were made to fit that length, the Henry's, '66's and '73's in particular, but the '92's and Marlin '94's also. Even in the modern clones, and Marlins, they usually are made for the 44 and 357 Mag, but are advertised to use 44 and 38 Specials, much shorter rounds. Then you take a 38 special and use a light bullet and get a still shorter round and you have problems like the infamous "Marlin Jam", or '92's stove piping. For the Marlin, they say it 's the carrier bending and to fix it you have to heat and bend the carrier back up so it will keep the next round in the mag. I think the carrier was made for mag length rounds and just the length of the cartridge on the carrier should keep the next round in the mag, like the '73's are supposed to do, but that's just my humble opinion. In short, use the right length ammo, with heavier bullets and most of the problems will go away.
McLintock

[awaveritt]

I think a lot of them have to do with the reloads

I don't shoot CAS but I think McLintock is correct. I mentioned this in another post this morning but it applies here, as well:

When I first got my '94c, it would sometimes hick-up with SWC style boolits. I figured I might have to do some tuning as some have mentioned.

I may be captain obvious, but I finally realized that I wasn't paying close enough attention to my crimping operation (not uniform around the case mouth's circumference[smilie=b:[smilie=b:. Once I perfected the crimp, my rifle feeds most any style boolit.

Just a reminder to check first things first before considering expensive and annoying major modifications. Sometimes we tend to over-think ourselves.

Remember, we are what we eat.

[crabo]

For the Marlin, they say it 's the carrier bending and to fix it you have to heat and bend the carrier back up so it will keep the next round in the mag. I think the carrier was made for mag length rounds and just the length of the cartridge on the carrier should keep the next round in the mag, like the '73's are supposed to do, but that's just my humble opinion. In short, use the right length ammo, with heavier bullets and most of the problems will go away.
McLintock

I've thought about this before and thought about building up the carrier a little with JB Weld to pick the nose up just a little to help it feed better.

Has anyone done this or thought about it, or am I way off?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Been shooting a Browning B92-44Mag for 18years, not one malfunction:Fire::Fire:

[Calamity Jake]

Been in the CAS game for over 16 years I shoot Rossi 92's 45C a Uberti 66 in 44-40 and my GD shoots a Rossi 357 and a Marlin CB 45C, I always load boolits that maintain the proper OAL with a RN, RNFP or truncated cone nose, never had any cycling problems execpt for not working the lever far enough with the Rossi's.

[John Boy]

We have had a few of the newest Rossi 92 clones recently and there seems to be numerous problems with them.
Harry, interesting to hear because I have not heard or read the new ones have issues. I have all the CAS levers excepts the '73 because they don't make it with a brass receiver. I like brass!
Anyway, my 'workhorse' CAS rifle is a vintage 2003 LSI '92. Has close to 12,000 BP rounds down the bore and have never had a mechanical hiccup or a broken part

What are the numerous problems with the new ones? With Tauraus buying out Amando Rossi in 2009, could it be they have buggered the quality like they did with the Thunderbolt? ;)

As for the other Uberti lever replicas, I have not had any problems with the '60 Henry and the '66 Yellow Boy. I never owned a Marlin, so can't speak to them

[Four Fingers of Death]

My experience;

1866 Uberti, 44/40, old gun, lots of trouble until I tried Winchester ammo (unfortunately, I had upgraded rifle by the time I worked this out.)

92 Rossi 357/38 not one lick of trouble apart from losing a lot of brass that was thrown forward. This was an old cheap gun that I bought as a back up)

92 Rossi 44Mag to get the cowboy loads on target I had to remove the rear sight elevator (yep! you guessed it, lost it so I can't sell it until I get a replacement). Not happy with feeding 44Specials, feeds most, but a misfeed every second or third scenario.

44 Mag Marlin, bought it home after having trouble with 1866, didn't really like it and stuck it in the safe, still there years later. I notice that the ones at the range having trouble belong to shooters who have been active competitors for many years.

It is worth noting that the 92s were designed to feed bottle necked cartridges. Get onto Steve's Gunz and get his video, stainless steel follower and better quality trigger return spring, that'll fix it.

44/40 1873 Ubeauty, After years of frustrating trouble with my big bore leverguns, I decided to buy new, gunsmith prepped guns and save trouble. Little did I know that this would be the start of my troubles. Trigger too light, would'nt fire all the time after some work, it worked 60% of the time. Three gunsmiths had a go at it without success, my mate who is not a smith, just looks after his and his kid's guns finally fixed it. Unsmithing I called it, need to do that on th eshotgun I bought at the same time. The lever operation feels about the same as my 1866, but the stroke is shorter. I had lost faith in the gun and was going to replace it, but it is working well now so I will stick with it. My mate told me that as the innards had been re-worked as opposed to a short stroke kit being installed, it will wear and cause trouble down the track. Drop in short stroke kits are obviously a better choice.

My recommendation:

1) 1873 Uberti. If you want to tune it, get the drop in parts rather than taking a welder and a file to it. That way you can comvert it to standard if it doesn't work out of if you want to sell it.

2) 92 Rossi and a Steve's Gunz video and parts (about $40) or get him to tune it. This is a better route if you are going to use the gun for hunting as well. Straight cowboy, the Uberti is the machine, they feed like machine guns.

3) Lots of hunting with a scope and occasional cowboy use: Marlin (fix the sharp edge on the lifter before you cycle it too often).

[NickSS]

I have used a Henry 1860 in 45 colt, Marlin 94s in 357 mag, 44 mag and 45 colt, several winchester 94 in 357, 44 mag and 45 colt, and last but not least a Rossi in 45 colt. The Henry runs smooth but I kept having failures to feed when my hand got in the way of the magazine spring compression lever and stopped using it. The marlins worked well and I can recomend them as long as you do the mod to the sharp corner on the lever (bevel it) and use the right length ammo. The winchester 94 just plain were not smooth or fast working as necessary for CAS so I can not recommend them for CAS. Then there is my Rossi 92 clone. Works well and this is the one I am sticking with I typically use 250 gr slugs in it as I have found that they feed better and i do not gain time when using lighter slugs in a rifle. I use 200 gr slugs in my revolvers though.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The rossis sure are hard to beat for the money, half the price of the Marlins and less than a third of the price of the 1873s here. I haven't seen any Henrys on the line here, but they are two and a half times as expensive as a Rossi.

I am thinking of fitting a tang sight and using the 44 for cowboy silouette. I think it will work better at longer ranges than the Marlin with it's slower twist. I must get on the range with both and test them out. Project number 264!

[Harry O]

Harry, interesting to hear because I have not heard or read the new ones have issues.

What are the numerous problems with the new ones? With Tauraus buying out Amando Rossi in 2009, could it be they have buggered the quality like they did with the Thunderbolt? ;)

We had two of them this year. These are the ones that are either not blued or are made from dull stainless. They both had jams. They took one apart on the unloading table and put it back together. It did not fix it. He dropped out and said he was taking it to a gunsmith.

I have seen a few of the old ones and they don't seem to have problems. Surprisingly, considering the low cost when they were being sold, I don't see very many of them.

[Harry O]

PS. Just to list my current leveractions:

1. Uberti 1873 Winchester clone in 38-40. Very sensitive to cartridge OAL.
2. Marlin 1894 in 44-40. Not as sensitive to OAL, but doesn't like wide meplats.
3. Marlin 1894 in 32-20.
4. Marlin Model 62 in .30 carbine
5. Marlin 39A.
6. Marlin 39M.
7. Winchester .375 Big Bore.

I have also owned in the past:
1. Savage 99 takedown in .22 Hi-Power. Inaccurate and excess headspace.
2. Winchester 1894 in 30-30.
3. Marlin Model 56. Not as accurate as the 39's.

I would also like to get a Marlin 1894 or Winchester 92 in 38-40.

[mag44uk]

I had the Uberti 1866 Yellowboy carbine in 45 Colt.
It fed flawlessly as long as I stuck to the traditional RNFP boolit profile. I tried 45acp semi wads in it once and ended up having to take the gun apart to get all the jammed rounds out.
I also had a 44 Winchester Trails end which was a better rifle than the 357 (it didnt break!)
I now have two Marlin 1894`s which I have shot 10`s of thousands of rounds through.
Only had one broken firing pin in the 44 (last week!) and I shoot 300 rounds a month through it.Its 8 year old now.
Tony

[JSH]

I don't shoot SASS or CAS. I do run around with a fair sized bunch that does though. Most of the glitches and issues are caused by one of two things.
Mods of some kind or another uberti short throw kits seem to cause issues at times.
The WRONG ammo. When I say this I mean shooting 38 specials in 357 magnums. Yes, yes this will draw an up roar from the masses I am sure. Gazillions of 38's have been shot in 357's. I have yet to see a 357 rifle benefit from shooting 38 specials in it for any extended amount of shooting.
I have a marlin in 357 and it will shoot well for a short while using 38's. When using 357 brass and loads of the same speeds it will shoot as well if not better, with very few to no glitches.
I don't know the rules on any of the cowboy stuff. But, it seems to me a minmum and major power factor are needed. I swear some of those guys use magnum primers and no powder.
jeff

[Four Fingers of Death]

But, it seems to me a minmum and major power factor are needed. I swear some of those guys use magnum primers and no powder.
jeff

I have to agree with you there, but they just wanna go fastttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!

Most of the crowd I shoot with shoot 38s all the time with out a glitch. My 357 Rossi hasn't seen any 357s apart from 50 or so target loads I had kicking around and it has fired perlenty!!!.

I prefer to shoot 44/40s in my lever guns and as Teddy Roosvelt would have said 'there hell for stout!"

[McLintock]

I've got two '92's, a Browning 44 Mag and an old Armi San Marcos "Hartford" in 45 Colt, the worst rifle I've ever had. Had to put a new barrel on it and fix a bunch of problems, like the extractor fell apart after 25-30 rounds and the mag tube came out after less then 50, don't ever buy one of those. Also got a Uberti '73 in 44 Special, which has a first generation "short stroke" kit in it. I installed it and didn't clearance the carrier like you're supposed to and if I don't watch the OAL it'll catch a little, other '73's and '66's may be having similar problems due to the latest 3rd and 4th gen short stroke kits. I think with the '92's, if you're shooting a 357 one with 38's, if you use a heavier bullet they don't stovepipe as much or at all. My Browning eats nothing but 44 Specials and it never has a problem unless I double cluch it and cause it myself. But a longer cartridge with a heavier bullet is harder to flip up when the carrier snaps up during cycling, so shouldn't stovepipe. A short cartridge, with a light bullet is easier to flip up, and like Four Fingers said, "it's all about fast", which I personally think, SUCKS. This is all pure conjecture, so it and a buck or so will get you a cup of coffee in most eating establishments (could't spell restaurant).
McLintock

[Four Fingers of Death]

and like Four Fingers said, "it's all about fast", which I personally think, SUCKS.

I agree and don't see the sense in re-enacting cowboy gunfights with a pop gun that would be lucky to penetrate a heavy leather vest. Truth is one scenario shot for real in the old west would be still talked about and still be having movies and books turned out.

I like to go as fast as I can, but won't use a popgun to get there. I like a fair bit of whoomp with my guns to make it more realistic. I used the 38s in the Rossi reluctantly while having big bore rifle problems or no ammo loaded in time for the shoot. The little Rossi is a bit like a wart, it grows onya!

I have never had any problems with it apart from it falling apart on the line one day, my fault I oil em before I go out, wipe em down with an oily rag before putting them away at the end of the day and ever couple of years give them a clean, whether they need it or not. Nowwwwwwwwwwww, I oil them and tighten the screws before I shoot :), I won't be falling for that one again :D The only problem I have apart from that is I short stroke the lever every now and then as I am used to a 1873 with a shorter stroke.

I am currently getting the Rossi ready for my learner wife to use. It is the rifle in my avitar pic!

[herbert buckland]

I youse a 56-50 spencer ,slow but it ratles the plates and lots of fun

[geargnasher]

I youse a 56-50 spencer ,slow but it ratles the plates and lots of fun

Nice. I was gawking at a match a while back and saw a fellow with a Spencer Rifle, he didn't win any stages but he was a clean shooter and everyone grinned big when he started pounding plates. Would have really been something if he had been using black powder.

Gear

[BarryinIN]

I hate to get sidetracked, but this sorta follows the topic:
What does one want in a CAS rifle, especially pertaining to barrel length? Long barrel for more ammo capacity, or a short barrel for quicker handling?
I have never shot a CAS match, but have most of the guns for it so I might as well do it. I just wouldn't know what to bring.

I've also wondered: Why are the 1873s more popular than the 1892s? Are they smoother/faster, more dependable, or what?

My opinion is of little value since I've never shot a CAS match, but I too would rather use ammo loaded to period strength. I'd be shooting to see what it would be like to use what was used back then, and not to try to place a little higher.
But then, I shoot IPSC using my carry gun from concealment and using cover, so I do things a little differently.

[yarro]

You want a 1873 or quality 1892 Winchester clone. Do not buy a Wichester with rebounding hammer. I like Uberti for 1873. I have 3 (2x 44/40, 1x .357) and shoot BP in them. They are easy to clean. One of the 73s I got in trade for 2 Marlins, one in .357 and the other in .44, that I had 300bucks in total. Left me grinning for days. If you shoot .357 or .44, then a 92 made by Browning is smooth and a stronger action. Never should have sold mine. I have a Winchester 92 in .357 that I had the rebounding hammer guts taken out of. I it is a 24" business rifle, but I paid about 350 less than the going rate at the time for it so I couldn't pass it up. I also have a Navy Arms Brass frame Henry in .44/40 that was a sales sample from when they first started to try and peddle them over here. It has real fancy wood on it and was very well put together. I personnally think that short stroke kits go against the spirit of the game, but if you want one, you need a 73 or 66. The brass frame of the 66 does not hold up as well as the stell framed 73. Henry's just aren't good game guns for a number of reasons, though they are cool.

As for barrel length, you want the shortest barrel length that will hold ten rounds in the tube. For a 73 or 92 that is 18 and up" when shooting .38/.357,.44SPC/.44Mag,.38/40, .44/40.

-yarro

[BarryinIN]

The shortest barrel that will allow a magazine that holds ten rounds makes sense. I didn't know there was a limit to how many you could load.

If you don't go the short-stroke route, does the 73 or 66 lose it's advantage? I'm with you, I wouldn't get that done because it doesn't seem right. It's like using a gun that didn't exist at the time.

And yes, I miss the Browning B-92 I used to have also. Mine was a .357 that I bought new in 1985 for $280, which might have been a little high then but sounds awful good now. I traded it off shortly before CAS really took off and there wasn't much demand for them. I don't remember what I got out of it, but don't think I want to remember either.
Then again, I was able to trade it off because I got a Winchester 92 that had been converted to 357 and got it for a song, so I guess it evens out.

[cajun shooter]

John Boy, It is not the Rossi that is having problems. It's the new Puma 92's that are made in Italy by none other than Armi San Marco. As most people who have reproduction guns know this company has had it's problem's. I was talking with a officer of EMF and just happen to say that I over heard that EMF was having problems with it's guns that were contracted out with ASM. He said not any longer as we have gotten rid of them. I have seen this same story pop up on other forums and it is sad that Rossi will be blamed for making a gun that they had nothing to do with. I also understand that Armi San Marco has or will do a name change to help with it's PR with the gun buyers.

[ReloaderFred]

My wife and I both shoot Marlins in SASS matches. In fact, we just returned from End of Trail in New Mexico, where we shot with about 600 of our closest friends. The day after we got back, we started setting up for our two day annual match for our local club.

The biggest problem most shooters have, other than not seating primers properly, is with the over all length of their loaded rounds. Most Marlins in .357 Magnum prefer ammunition loaded to at least 1.480". Anything shorter will usually result in hangups, especially when in a hurry. The next problem is bullet shape. You need either a truncated cone flat point, or round nose flat point bullet to reliably feed through a lever rifle under match conditions.

The various Model 92 clones are even more sensitive to OAL. A friend found that an OAL of 1.510" was all that would feed through his Rossi .357 Magnum Model 92. Anything shorter would hang up and not feed.

The reason a lot of shooters of .357 Magnum rifles use .38's is you can't get 10 rounds of .357 Magnum ammunition into the magazine. In fact, with some, you have to cut a few coils off the magazine spring to get 10 rounds of long loaded .38's in the magazine.

Those who look down on light loads aren't the ones buying the steel for the targets, or have to answer for the range when ricochets start flying due to hot loads. The steel targets take a beating and aren't cheap.

Another aspect of using lighter loads is the number of women who shoot SASS, and wouldn't if the guns beat them up. On our posse at End of Trail, half were women, and they make it fun. I was Posse Marshal this time, and I never had to ask any of the women to do a job the whole time, they just pitch in and do what's needed.

With the number of rounds my wife and I go through each year, which is considerable because we shoot several matches a month, I try to conserve where I can. Bullet weight is one area, since I cast all our bullets and getting lead is becoming harder all the time. I cast 105 grain bullets for our pistols and 125 grain for our rifles. For my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy, I cast 200 grain bullets. This makes our lead supply last longer, so we get more bang for the buck.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[John Boy]

Thanks David for the info.
When one says ' Puma' I immediately think:
Rossi > sold to Taurus in 2009 > Imported by BrazTech International L.C. since 1997 > Distributed by Legacy Sports International (LSI) as ... Puma
ASM never comes to my mind. Believe that went belly up, if I'm not mistaken they are now reincarnated as Chiappa Firearms who only make a '86 and '74 Sharps

[ReloaderFred]

Chiappa Firearms is now located in the U.S., and makes many different firearms. One of them is a slick little .22 LR 1911.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Four Fingers of Death]

Chiappa Firearms is now located in the U.S., and makes many different firearms. One of them is a slick little .22 LR 1911.

Hope this helps.

Fred

They also make 92, including take downs.Looking at the numerous photos I have seen they appear well finished and good quality. But then again, they'd wat to be they sell for double what the Rossis sell for. The take down sells for over three times what a Rossi sells for, soooo, they wanna be reallllll good.