Copper Question -

[aszerigan]

I have a source for lead from a local indoor pistol range. When I smelt it into ingots, I skim the copper jackets from the surface, and drop them in a bucket.

Problem is - Even though I'm tapping my spoon, I still have an appreciable amount of lead in the jacket bucket. Is my lead too cold? I'm keeping it at just over 600-degrees. I know I can put the jackets back in the bucket and reheat them to recover the lead, but I would prefer to save the step.

Photos attached, please help ! Thanks !

http://i45.tinypic.com/9ap8pz.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/wtelwp.jpg

[zomby woof]

I have wooden stir stick and just keep stirring until all the lead is melted.

KEEP STIRRING!!!

[sagacious]

One look at your photos confirms that you're not fluxing while the copper is in the melting pot. That's the cause of your problem. Good photos-- a photo makes diagnoses like this much easier and more accurate.

Flux with a marble to walnut-sized chunk of paraffin wax. The lead adhereing to the jackets will bead-up and run off like water on a waxed car. The sooty wax residue will coat the copper jackets and prevent the lead from clinging to it. Test it and you'll see for yourself; you will recover every bit of lead.

Skim the jackets off with a large long-handled slotted spoon. Then use a regular spoon or a wooden paint stir-stick to skim off any remaining jacket fragments.

One of the primary reasons for fluxing is to separate the lead from any foreign matter-- whether dirt/sand, road grime, wheel-weight clips, jacket fragments, etc.

Read up on how to flux properly here: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

Good luck.

[aszerigan]

Thanks! I also have a tub of lead flux for plumbing. I'm new to this, but I know that a 1" candle stick will smoke out my garage, driveway, and my girlfriend's patience.... So, any other alternatives? I assume that plumbing flux will work.

And when I flux, I do this right before I skim, and the lead will separate from the copper? Sweet! Lets hope it works.

[gerrycan]

Asz.,
You only need a piece of scented candle the size of a pea to flux with.Make sure your lead is hot enough to ignite fumes.It smells pretty good.Gerry.

[aszerigan]

Gary -

I'm using 7.5qt Dutch ovens to smelt in, each pot has 50-70lbs of lead in it. I'll need more than a pea-sized nugget, yeah?

[lwknight]

Use something along the lines of a 1" square of wax. Get the pot good and hot so the wax will ignite and not smoke so much.
You will recover a lot of that lead from the copper that way. Also the burning wax helps melt the lead so if you have a lot of old candles , you could use more to speed up the rendering.

[sagacious]

Thanks! I also have a tub of lead flux for plumbing. I'm new to this, but I know that a 1" candle stick will smoke out my garage, driveway, and my girlfriend's patience.... So, any other alternatives? I assume that plumbing flux will work.
Try your flux and see if it works.

Be aware that some fluxes-- such as wax-- will flame up while fluxing. You can light the wax smoke so you're more in control of it, and the flames will reduce the smoke level by a considerable amount. The flames also help the fluxing process by adding heat and a reducing atmosphere right where you need it.


And when I flux, I do this right before I skim, and the lead will separate from the copper? Sweet! Lets hope it works.
Yes, as soon as all the mead is melted, or even when there is still a small amount of lead unmelted-- the wax flames will melt that lead quickly. Flux at as low a temp as is practical. I've melted a lot of range lead, same as yours-- should work fine for you. You'll notice other positive differences after fluxing, as fluxing prevents a host of problems.

[sagacious]

I'm using 7.5qt Dutch ovens to smelt in, each pot has 50-70lbs of lead in it. I'll need more than a pea-sized nugget, yeah?
Yes, about a walnut-sized piece, or a 1" square as LWKnight suggested. Always flux scrap lead generously. It's helpful to have your wax flux broken into a bunch of thumb-sized chunks before you begin melting your range scrap, so you can toss in the amount needed, when it's needed.

A tiny bit of wax flux works well for a pot of fairly clean lead. But when melting range scrap, all of the copper jackets need to be wetted by the flux. That'll require more than a small chip of wax.

[303Guy]

I also have a tub of lead flux for plumbing.No, don't use that. That's for fluxing copper and it'll make lead stick to it even better, specially if there's tin in it. What you have is 'tinning flux'. The word 'flux' means 'to clean'. In this case you want to clean the lead and foul the copper. Fluxing molten metal is to remove impurities from the melt and clean the surface and separate metal from the dross. Apparently, fluxing molten lead also reduces oxides of lead and its alloys by displacing the metal with more reactive carbon. Well, I hope it really does that.:mrgreen:

Looking at your pics - nice pics - something that you could try that produces very little smoke is to cover the melt with all the copper and lead with sand or kitty litter then once molten, flux by stirring with a piece of wood. The wood needs to get hot enough to give of vapours. by stirring under the covering, carbon gets trapped within the covering. Smoke is controlled by stirring and spreading the vapours. You will see when the method is working by the blackened covering becoming exposed by the stirring which quickly dissappears as it oxidises. The metal does need to be quite hot for this. Stir by pushing the copper bits under the metal surface. I do this in my kitchen. Don't use pine or any resin rich wood.

[lwknight]

The wax actually coats the copper and prevents lead from sticking to it.
That allows dipping the junk out without hauling away the lead that would be stuck to it.
I guess in this case the word "fluxing" is not being used correctly even though true fluxing is a by-product and not the goal.

About the time that the wax has burned off is the time to dip out the junk before its all gone.
The reason that you should wait till its almost dry is that a lot of crud that is clumpy from the wax has more lead in it and it the crud turns to powder as the wax leaves it.

[sagacious]

Flux is a tool, and like many tools may be properly used in many different ways and purposes.

For the joining metals, many common fluxing agents must melt but not burn. Rosin will join lead/tin to copper and iron extremely well. But for rosin to flux the lead/tin while soldering copper, it must be kept at a temp that is below it's ignition point so that a reducing layer is maintained during the soldering. Once it's burned (reduced by complete oxidation) it is inactive and will then prevent the flow of solder.

For the removal of foreign matter from the melt, many common fluxing agents must reach their ignition temperature and be reduced to a completely oxidized (inactive) state to be most effective. During the oxidation (burning) of the flux the readily-alloyed components are combined into solution. But once the flux is completely oxidized, it cannot assist reduction and the products of decomposition now provide a layer that prevents joining and alloying of the non-readily alloyed components. One knows this from soldering with rosin-core solder-- the joint must be made while the flux is 'active' and not after it's all burned.

What this means is that fluxing to complete oxidation will assist in alloying (reducing and combining) the tin, lead, and antimony, but will strongly retard the alloying of Pb/Sn/Sb with copper or iron. This is especially true with hydrocarbon fluxes, but is also true of some common non-hydrocarbon fluxes. This mechanism allows us to use wax/rosin/etc for both joining lead/tin with copper, and for separating lead/tin from copper.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[excess650]

I used a 5qt dutch oven for a pot, but did this OUTSIDE on a breezy day. I don't use a thermometer when melting scrap, but do like the metal pretty hot so as to make it easier to stir and flux. According to my thermometer, I usually cast at 700-750F depending upon which mold I'm using, and I'll bet that my dutch oven is at least that hot when I'm ready to make ingots.

What I don't like about parafin and cnadles is that its smoky and ignites at too low temperature. Beeswax will take considerably more heat before igniting. I think I still have some Marvelux, but will only use it for fluxing scrap as it leaves too much residue in the casting pot. Its a real problem in bottom pour pots as it causes the spout to plug and you'll get dirt in your bullets.

[Hardcast416taylor]

A definate NO on using plumbing copper flux to flux the range collection. You will have a bigger problem by using this flux by then soldering the copper jackets together with the lead now acting as a bonding agent. I know this sounds ridiculous, but it can happen. A small finger nail sized piece of any candle wax, no soy, will do the flux job.Robert

[lwknight]

Everyone keeps answering how to flux the lead. The op wants to salvage lead from copper jackets.
You want an oily hydrocarbon (wax) to be burning while you dip off the copper jackets.
It makes no difference what temperature someone likes to cast at. This is a salvage operation , not a casting session or even a common smelting session.
A fingernail sized piece of wax will not get the job done. You need a liberal amount burning wax in the pot to free up all the stuck to the copper jackets lead.
Scrap candle wax is dirt cheap so there is no reason to be stingy with it.

[sagacious]

You need a liberal amount burning wax in the pot to free up all the stuck to the copper jackets lead.
Scrap candle wax is dirt cheap so there is no reason to be stingy with it.
Exactly. Generous application of paraffin will get it done as good as it can be done.

[303Guy]

You need a liberal amount burning wax in the pot to free up all the stuck to the copper jackets lead.
Scrap candle wax is dirt cheap so there is no reason to be stingy with it.Aah....... true, but .... excessive smoke is a problem to the OP. I too do my melting and smelting in my kitchen and there is just no way I could use wax or anything that produces fumes and/or flames. Hense my suggestion to use sand or kitty litter. I get plenty powdered oxides building up in the sand or kitty litter (I prefer kitty litter when using a ladle). That's not to say it's the best way but it is the best way to do it in your girlfriend's kitchen!:bigsmyl2: Actually, it does seem to separate copper gas checks from the melt quite well.

[Harter66]

I have used a frier basket of and on . Pour the j-bullets in it get it to melt out, flux pick it up an inch or 2 shake gently like stove top popcorn , the unmelted goes to the bottom empties come to the top, float and melt a couple of times you'll have empty jackets and a pot full of lead and ash to skim . My basket is of the holey aluminimum sort as opposed to the screen type. I do a lot of lead seals and lead washers like for tin roof nails ,this basket seem to catch most of the trash.

[Edubya]

Thanks! I also have a tub of lead flux for plumbing. I'm new to this, but I know that a 1" candle stick will smoke out my garage, driveway, and my girlfriend's patience.... So, any other alternatives? I assume that plumbing flux will work.

And when I flux, I do this right before I skim, and the lead will separate from the copper? Sweet! Lets hope it works.

You could just get a new girlfriend and get 'er done.
I don't know about these youngsters, they are letting the womenfolk control everything they do and say anymore. That's the problem with the good old America that I grew up in.

EW