BT Sniper scores another winner

[shaggist]

Below is a picture of the ejector apparatus that BT designed and built for my C H Champion Press. The ejector is as overly-sturdy as is the press, so it should last far beyond my lifetime. Congratulations BT, you did it again-another very satisfied swaging customer. If you click on the picture 3 times, it gets bigger and bigger.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks! I certainly try my best. That set up looks GREAT! I may just have to pick one up for myself. The colors and bare steel really gives it a completed look.

This one was a bit more of a challenge as the ram size was a bit bigger but I learned a new skill on the mill and using boring tools. Amazing what you can do when you have the right tools.

Your good to go now. Wait till you see just how much more enjoyable swaging is when you don't have to swing any more hammers to eject the bullets :) Don't have to wake the kids or wife anymore either. That was certainly a big plus at my house hold.

SWAGE ON!

BT

[Storydude]

When can we expect upgraded .30cal dies? :)

[shaggist]

This thread is about BT Sniper's bullet ejectors for swaging presses, not 30 cal. dies. If any of you have any questions about how the ejector works, how it mounts, how to adjust it to work properly, or anything that I haven't thought of here, just PM BTS or me, and we'll help you with it. This is a tremendous time and effort saver for swaging, in that it ejects the bullet as the last motion of the swaging sequence, with very little effort. It makes the whole swaging experience much more enjoyable, and speeds the process tremendously. Get BT to make one for your press, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.

[BT Sniper]

I'll start a new thread concerning avialable upgraded dies. The 30 is certainly a possiblity.

Keep us up to date on your projects there shaggist. I always told myself I would not sell anything unless it is better then what I use myself. Now I find myself staring at your set up a wanting one :)

SWAGE ON!

BT

[buck1]

"BT Sniper scores another winner"

"This thread is about BT Sniper's bullet ejectors for swaging presses, not 30 cal. dies."

THE TITLE DOES NOT SAY... "BT Snipers EJECTOR"????????????????????????

[BT Sniper]

No worries guys. Don't get stuck on the small things here, threads have been know to wonder before. It is all good.

BT

[waksupi]

I always kinda worry when a thread DOESN'T wander here!

[Dannix]

This thread is about BT Sniper's bullet ejectors for swaging presses, not 30 cal. dies.
I wasn't going to say anything until I realized you have a relatively low post count. In a nutshell, welcome, and please don't be a stick in the mud.


Enjoy your ejector! :-D I still have BT's dies on my 'to buy' list myself, once my piggy bank gets a little heavier. How you liking your CH press? Strong enough to make the CH-based dies the weak link? I'm tempted to pick one up, or go ahead and have BT lathe me up a solid ram for my Lee Classic Cast.

[a.squibload]

Well, the ejector is great, but BT is an evil man.
He made me order a Classic Cast tonight.

(It's all your fault BT.):kidding:

What the heck, on sale $77 + $12 shipping, had to do it.
I figure to try making the ejector, then order one if it doesn't work out!
Tapping them out with the hammer ain't gonna cut it, although she says it doesn't bother her.
I got pretty close to the size of the included samples, using one of the included unswaged samples. Using the RC.
Hey, it works!

Also stiffened up my reloading/lab table, it's made of 1/8" steel and flexed a LOT when swaging.
Cut a 2x4 to size and pounded it into place in the channels front and rear, no screws needed.
Not bad for a $5 surplus table.

...END SECOND HIJACK...

[buck1]

BTs the man for sure!!!He gave me the means to make my own .44 JHPs for darn near free, and yes it has a ejector , that I love also!

[a.squibload]

Don't want to hype a commercial outlet but the place with an "M" and ends with "way" had my Classic Cast delivered this morning.
I only ordered it the night of the 29th. I mean dang, they must have shipped before I ordered it. (Insert Twilight Zone music here.)

I'm wondering about drilling the new holes for increased leverage, not rocket science but does anyone
have a measurement that worked OK?

Thanks.

[BT Sniper]

I'll have to look. IRC I just split the difference between existing holes. You'll want to check into a different way to hold them in place because once you shorten the through the ram does not go down as far then the ram is in the way of you being able to drive out the pins that hold the linkages in place. You shouldn't have to ask me how I know :)

Just be sure the new holes you drill line up perfectly with each other.

I'll take a measurement when I can.

[a.squibload]

OK, thanks. I wouldn't change it but it feels like a lot of pressure.

Got my Classic Cast set up, feels a little better than the RC. Swaged a few of the samples you sent. It's working!

Questions if you have a min.:

1) How can I tell when to stop turning the die body down?
Had to change depth of die body, the Lee is taller.
The 40s are at .400 and the 44s are at .430 so that's good, but the lead could be a teeny bit
higher in the case.

2) Setting up / adjusting: If I partially swage a boolit, do you think the case would work harden enough to affect
further swaging on that boolit?
I tried adjusting die body depth with one, then a full stroke on the next came out pretty good, but
the lead is still not up to the mouth like your samples.

I just don't want to mess up the equipment!

PS: the cores you sent are WW, right? Soft lead would be easier I suppose, any suggestions?
What's the mix on your lube, I think you said castor oil? I got a small tub of lanolin today.

Thanks again...

Will have casting area set up soon so I can make a bunch.

[DukeInFlorida]

The pic showing the bullet in the dial indicator....

The curve at the front of the bullet isn't fully formed yet. I'd suggest (from my own experience with Brian's die set) that you screw in the big die body a little lower into the press, and keep applying pressure. You should have to really lean on the press arm to get the nose to form well. Too much, and you'll have the lead squirting out of the front. Too little, and you'll get the results in the pic.

Let us know how that works for ya.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

#1... I wouldn't change it but it feels like a lot of pressure.

#2...What's the mix on your lube, I think you said castor oil? I got a small tub of lanolin today.

#3...the cores you sent are WW, right? Soft lead would be easier I suppose, any suggestions?

I am nearly as new to this as you, I have swaged 600 or so 40s last spring
then I got busy with work...but I read here everyday, so I have learned a few thing.
I'll try and answer a couple of questions for you.

#1 Yes it is...see answer #3

#2 I can't remember exactly what BT said his mix was, BUT, you can use anhydrous lanolin straight, or blend in a little castor til it's the consistancy you want, I used neatsfoot oil and mixed it 50-50...that was too thin, bullets were difficult to eject from swage die, maybe try about 10 or 20% oil to anhydrous lanolin.

#3 Yes, WW alloy is what BT sent me, they require lots of pressure to swage. when I swage cores made with soft (near pure) lead, and it's lubed correctly, I feel the swaging takes about the same pressure as sizing unlubed 44 mag brass in a carbide sizing die...in other words, not very much at all compared to what you've experienced with WW cores. also read this thread I started in the LEAD AND LEAD ALLOYS forum. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=87670 in short, I think if you anneal the WW lead cores the day before swaging, it may take lots less pressure. OK, I guess I can't make this short, cast WW alloy (that is air cooled) will continue to harden over about a 6 week period, so if the cores samples you got from BT were cast many weeks ago, it'd take more pressure to swage them than if they were cast a day ago, annealing them (heating to 400º) should bring them back the hardness of near the day after they were cast, making swaging easier.

Jon

[BT Sniper]

OK lets see here.... The 44 does require a bit of pressure as it is a bigger bullet. The 40 should be less. A good way to tell when if you are using enough is to measure the rim of the formed bullet since it will be the last to swell to finall diameter. Check it against teh original size you will see the difference. Usually when you are with in a few thousands you should be fine. If you get all the way to full diameter on the rim you are certainly using enough pressure. Just try to find that happy spot where the it "just" gets the rim diameter to the size you want and no more.

I really doubt that any work hardening of the brass from partial swaging will be a problem at all. You can reform the bullet many times if need be.

The amount of lead in the case and how far up in the jacket it comes is the callenge when it comes to this project. There is two way to correct this if you even wish to. Who's to say it even matters as far as bullet perfomance or accuracy as to how close the lead come to the top of the jacket on formed bullet. Really it probably is just a personal preferance and purly cosmetic . Now as far as controling it one sollution is pretty simple. You need more lead in the jacket:) weigh your cores and cases and match them to form a heaver bullet. This will bring the lead further up. As for the secound option it is what I spend all my time setting up for you guys before I ship the dies to you and that is the actuall adjustments of the dies with the stop bolts and nuts. In all honesty your pictured bullet looks very good. You have the necessary diameter, the amount of lead may not be a problem. What is the weights of your bullets compared to the samples I sent you. Are these your components or bullets made from the samples I sent you?

Now before you adjust the top stop bolt try a few different wei9ght cores and jackets see if you get results you like if not we can adjust it. Now let me stress that the adjust ment will be VERY SMALL and Duke can certainly attest to the challenge of reseting this adjustment.

By screwing the die futher down in your press you adjust how far the bullet is pushed into the die. When set correctly you will get a bullet that will match the entire internial dimintions of the die. Now we can play with this a bit and actually make slightly shorter bullets with less ogive (length of nose) and a larger metplat (frontal diameter of the nose). This gets a bit technical but works becasue we have the jacket all the way to the top of the bullet. The top bolt is what stops the internial HP nose punch in a certain spot to form the HP. Obviously we adjust this down the HP gets deeper and out the HP shallow. Deeper HP = more displaced lead to meet up with top of jacket. Following me so far? So if we tighten the top stop bolt just a little, and I mean LITTLE like 1/16th of a turn or less we can adjust the higth of the lead in the jacket.

[BT Sniper]

I'll answer in a couple posts as it scares me to get one to long then have it disapeer on me som how.

The nose may be formed just fine as the 44 as pictured in your mic does "look" bigger and in fact is quite bigger then the 40's

So to continue.... By adjusting this top stop bolt we can raise or lower the postion of the internial HP pin. Now by design when we lower this pin to stop a bit before the top of the internial dimintions of the die we can infact shorten the bullet and wind up with a slightly larger metplat. this is because the HP punch acts like a dam against the jacket to stop any more of the lead from passing further up in the die. If we had a shorter jacket with an exposed lead tip you would see a rim formed because of this adjustment. Matter of fact should you guys ever have difficulties setting this stop bolt you can take a piece of lead and swage it up into the die. You will be able to see when the pin is to low by the rim created around the tip of the bullet or when the pin is to high you will see the right angle formed as teh lead enters the hole in which the pin is held in place by. This may all sound pretty technical but it is just a matter of getting fimilar with your die and a bit of tryle and error.

All so technical........ really just a matter of tryle and error till you find what works best then don't change a thing I suppose. Now by appling more pressure to the bullet you can get more lead to the top too as you are basicly compressing the ejector groove. Now I am very confident you are not going to bust or even damage these dies with any amount of pressure you will be able to apply with a Lee or RCBS press. More then likly the week point of the press will give first like the linkage or somthing so don't worry about that. Just screw the die down till you get a bullet with the diameter you are looking for and the rim close or just to finall dameter as well. try a few adjustments in case weight or core weight then make VERY SLIGHT adjustments to teh top stop bolt if you wish. You can even add just one lead shot BB at a time and tis will efectivly fill the lead to top of jacket but requires one more swage in the press and I would certainly hope to have you get a perfect bullet in only one swage.

So try a heavier combination of lead core to jacket or if you like you can tighten the top bolt just a LITTLE if you wish. You'll begine to see what is possible with these dies and get it figured out.

The lanolin I mixed 1lb to 4 oz of castor oil. Might try 2 oz to start with and mix more as needed to disired thickness.

Yes the samples I sent you where Wheel Weight. Pure lead will certainly be easier and will flow to the top of the jacket easier too.

Do keep us informed to your progress. Let me and the others now if there is any more help you need I'll certainly be happy to do what I can.

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[a.squibload]

Thanks all for allaying my fears!

Duke: I noticed the pic doesn't really show the curve, looks better in person.
Holding nose to nose with BTs finished samples the nose is real close to same diameter.
Will try to squish a little more curve into it.

BT:
Highlight everything in your post and "copy" once in a while, just in case.

I think it's looking good. I was swaging your samples.
Boolit dia. is right on, rim dia. is within .oo2 or .003 so that's fine.
Lead is close enough to case mouth as to be hard to tell.
I will try one more 1/16 turn on die body just for grins.

Will try a little oil, didn't want to waste the lanolin.

Have shown to several friends, got mixed reactions from "Wow that's cool", to "Wow, that's great" (all were impressed).
Now I have to get my casting back in order 'cause at least 3 of them
want some boolits to load! One is in Texas, knows a guy with vegetable predator problems
(walking bacon), if I get some to him I'll ask him to recover the slugs if possible. Might be a while on that.

JonB: I always forget about boolits hardening over time. I got some lead sheet not too long ago,
will avoid heat-treating by using the soft stuff. I guess I don't care how hard they get later,
just wanted to ease the pressure on the press. Maybe when I get used to it (or move the pivot point
in the links) it won't bother me.

Forgive the long post. Weighed the boolits, the 44s are all within about 3 gn (252-255),
the 40s are all about 188 within a few 10ths. All using BT's samples, mixed brass.
I wouldn't even sort them.

Here's something weird (but maybe not that interesting), the more I squished this one,
the bigger the primer indent became. I even looked on the punch to see if there was something stuck on it.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've had a 40 swage die, ejector assy,
and modified upper ram piece for
the LEE classic cast press
from BT for a few months now and am very happy with it.
the 40 swage die was plug and play...I didn't need to
adjust anything til I wanted to make a shorter and lighter bullet.

Late last week BT shipped me a 44 swage die.
I just finished setting it up. I didn't mess with the nice samples
BT sent, since I am so familiar...:groner:ya right !

I had a caster friend of mine (Rick)
cast up 1000 cores with a LEE 40 cal. 180gr TL mold.
after weighing the cases and cores, then I averaged the spread.
I figured I could make the most 255gr. with what I had,
which is 5 grains heavier than the core samples BT provided.
I had a little issue with a lead fringe at the hollow point mouth.
I assumed the issue was the extra 5 grains.
I started adjusting the die...spend a good two hours.
Nothing seemed to help.
Finally figured out I was applying too much pressure.
After I got that all figured out and adjusted to
where I thought it should be,
I took measurements of the finished bullet,
0.429 and about 0.427 at the rim.

Apparently dead soft lead doesn't need all the
pressure the LEE classic cast has to offer.
The lead was forced up into the tiny gap around the
hollow point tool. I was truely amazed how little pressure
was needed with a pure lead core.
The 9mm 125 gr. cores I used for the 40 cal.
that I've swaged were cast by a different caster (Arthur),
I don't think those were totally pure lead, still easier than
some WW cores I've swaged, but not as easy as these 44s.

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1235.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1234.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1236.jpg

[BT Sniper]

Jon,

Looks very good there. I have found the difference between pure lead and wheel weight alloy in a 175ish grain mold to be just about 5 grains. So the "amount" of lead in the case may be nearly the same. Yes the soft lead will certainly "flow" easier then the alloy that's for sure.

Soft lead does make it a bit more technical and percise on teh adjustments. I see the rim you are talking about and I'm very fimilar with it as you can imagine. It looks like you got it perfect in your latest examples there. I do think this soft lead core could be contained even under a bit of pressure it would just need the perfect match where the jacket meets the top of teh die and edge of the HP punchat just the split second before the lead reaches it creating a dam as I described in previous posts but this can be a challenge at times dealing with all the variables of brass size and core weight. Still looks very good.

I'll get you a PM a little latter, got some ideas for your XTP die.

Good shooting, Swage On!

BT

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

BT SAID, "I have found the difference between pure lead and wheel weight alloy in a 175ish grain mold to be just about 5 grains. So the "amount" of lead in the case may be nearly the same."
Yes, in hindsight, I now can see that the volume of a certain alloy in a given mold should equal (or nearly equal) the volume of a different alloy in that same mold.

BT SAID, "Soft lead does make it a bit more technical and percise on the adjustments. I see the rim you are talking about and I'm very fimilar with it as you can imagine."
I did include in the photo, the imperfect swages...Top row.
but I forgot to mention that in the post
I was going to discuss some of my thoughts on the technicalities
of swaging with dead soft lead as a core in brass jackets,
but my post already got real long.
the short version is that I think the brass jacket requires more
resistance of a harder alloy than dead soft lead to fully expand
the brass to the dies dimensions, especially in the RIM area.
I'm not sure how important that is for the rim to expand to .429
but I know I would prefer it. I am hoping that WW alloy that was freshly
cast...or maybe a 50-50 blend of WW lead and soft lead freshly
cast would give the appropriate amount of resistance.
If not, maybe I've try some that have been aged...one week, or two weeks.
if I do that, I should really get a hardness tester to nail down the specifics.
Was this the short version ?;)

BT SAID, " I do think this soft lead core could be contained even under a bit of pressure it would just need the perfect match where the jacket meets the top of the die and edge of the HP punchat just the split second before the lead reaches it creating a dam as I described in previous posts but this can be a challenge at times dealing with all the variables of brass size and core weight."
Ideally yes, but you hit the nail on the head at the end of your sentance, when using basically scrap brass of different brands, the lengths are surely inconsistant. The cores I'm using vary in weight 3 or 4 grains, and I am matching them up with the varied weights of the brass to achieve uniform total weight (within 0.5 grains)...who knows how that affects the "dam" we want to acheive.


BT SAID, "I'll get you a PM a little later, got some ideas for your XTP die."
Yippe, I can't wait !!!
Jon

[a.squibload]

Good lookin' pills there JonB.

Good point about expanding the brass, soft lead would be easier but it seems BT's sample cores
are WW, and my swaged boolits (using his cores) came out at .400 and .430.

Of course there could be a difference in dies, I heard he just shoots the holes in 'em instead of reaming!:kidding: *

I will try a few soft lead cores (one of these days), and if they don't stretch the cases as well I'll
stick with WWs. And will report here of course!

Hmm, maybe after slugging bores and such I'll have a little soft stuff left over for tradin'...


* BT: I know, the holes are already in 'em when you get 'em!

[a.squibload]

Well, it ain't as pretty as yours BT, but it works!
Paint is drying now, wanted to see whether it works before wire brushing and spraying it.
Hope you can see the key to the thing, I drilled and tapped the shell holder adapter for a 1/4 x 20 bolt.
We'll see how long that bolt lasts!
I put it in the thin part of the adapter, if it breaks or pulls through I can move it up a little where there's more meat.
Or use a bigger dia. bolt.
Guess I can write off any warranty on the adapter!

The good news: no removal or adjustment of ejector to change between 40 and 44 dies.
More good news: all garage scrap and leftovers. Couldn't believe I found eight 1/2" nuts in the pile.

Re: the cup on some of your ejectors, I couldn't figure what you mean by "catch" the ejector rod?

Thanks for sharing ideas and pics.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am hoping that WW alloy that was freshly
cast...or maybe a 50-50 blend of WW lead and soft lead freshly
cast would give the appropriate amount of resistance.
If not, maybe I've try some that have been aged...one week, or two weeks.
if I do that, I should really get a hardness tester to nail down the specifics.

I thought I'd wake up this thread.
I got a LEE hardness tester last week, it needs a lot of light to see the dent in the bullet against the measuring etching. in the general "castboolits" forum, a few guys made there own stand for the LEE microscope. So I made a stand from 1x4 oak about 6" long. I drilled two holes and made the cutouts with a bandsaw. Then mounted a LED pistol flashlight on it (BTW, I sell the LED flashlight w/mount for pistols with acc. rail for $12)
Jonhttp://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1301.jpg
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1302.jpg

[justingrosche]

Pretty slick Jon!

[a.squibload]

Good lookin lab equipment JonB.

And a shameless bit of self-promotion!
How many LEDs, how many watts?
Is it posted somewhere else?
Etc., thanks.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

um, I think it's 9 LEDs...NOT I don't have it posted anywhere, I sell them at gunshows.
uses 3 AAA batteries.
it's not super bright like a $100 swat gun lite.
it's just enough to light up the hallway.
it's nice to not have to handle two tools (a gun and a flashlight)
at 3 AM to check out a noise in the kitchen.

it has held up to shooting 100 rounds, though a 45acp Taurus PT 24/7
it is cheaply made and I didn't think it would hold up.
for $12 it only needs to hold up through a mag full of ammo.
Jon

[Rock]

Flashlight looks like the model that Harbor Freight sell, 2 in a package for $5. Available in red, blue or black.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Rock,
you are correct.

[uncleskippy]

Jon,

Love your design and the idea of mounting the flashlight using a rail...............KILLER!!!

[jixxerbill]

This thread is about BT Sniper's bullet ejectors for swaging presses, not 30 cal. dies. If any of you have any questions about how the ejector works, how it mounts, how to adjust it to work properly, or anything that I haven't thought of here, just PM BTS or me, and we'll help you with it. This is a tremendous time and effort saver for swaging, in that it ejects the bullet as the last motion of the swaging sequence, with very little effort. It makes the whole swaging experience much more enjoyable, and speeds the process tremendously. Get BT to make one for your press, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.

WOW... bt has his very own forum police !!!???....you da man bt !!!!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just got my XTP clone core die from BT today.
(it creases the case/jacket)
the samples look awesome, I can't wait to try it.
I'm busy with work for a while yet...then I have to get 2 tables worth of items ready for the Sept. gunshow.

BT,
what is the Large flat ended punch for ?
is that for tube brass jackets made from rifle brass ?
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Jon,

Glad you like the looks of the samples. I got some pics of them before I sent it to you. I'll have to get them up on here.

The flat internial punch is for the core seating die and is used to seat the core as per convential, triditional methods. It would be used first to seat the core then the results would be "notched" after that. You would seat the core with the jacket upside down, or open end down and using your 40 cal base punch seat the core inside the jacket (usually a depth of about .1 to make our #2 bullets with jacket to the tip of the bullet). I provided you some of the core seated samples that I completed using this set up.

You can also use this flat puch to seat a core and compress the jacket just a bit with the open end up. Usually this would reqire a certain length jacket and certain weight core so it would not compress the jacket to much (wrinkels form that way). Then your seated core would be flush with teh top of the jacket before swaging. This will make a bullet with a lead exposed tip like sample of mine you have shot before.

You have everything you could possibly need now to make many different varrations of 44 cal bullets. I could probably think of a few more cool tricks we could come up with I'm sure but the core seat die willl certainly serve you well.

A side not on the notch punch. It does not require any, I repeat ANY pressure to fold the jacket in and form a nice XTP bullet, works very well. Experiment a bit with different depths of the notch and the resulting bullets it makes. I found that the very little pressure with the samples I gave you worked pretty darn good.

Let me know if I can help with anything else.

Good shooting,

Swage On!

BT

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

great stuff,
thanks BT.

Do I have everything I need to make swaged 44 bullets from Rifle brass ?
what you called thin jackets. A simple Yes or No is fine for now.
we can discuss that more later...if I can get a bunch of rifle brass,
REMEMBER,
I sent you all I had. I've saved up a few since then,
but not enough to start a swaging project.
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Nope not quite. One more internial punch for the core seat die will make them perfect. It can be done with what you have just not as well.

Yes I still have alot of that brass, cleaned but uncut. Yah I get a bit long winded with the typing.

BT

p.s. recieved the funds today thanks

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

BT,
I don't mind your long posts,
I just didn't want to burn up too much of your time.
It'll be months before I will want to try to make some thin jackets,
If I even want to ???
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Thanks Jon,

The thin jackets are a bit of extra work but they shoot groups twices as small as the cased bullets. They can be a joy too as it does not require hardly any force to expand the bullet like the cartridge jacket bullets do.

LEt us know your thoughts about the notch jacket punch when you get around to it.

Good shooting.

BT