Troubles loading .45 ACP with chubby Boolit

[Oyeboten]

I have an old Colt 'New Service' Revolver, which, long story short, is a 'Snubby'.


Cylinder has what are supposed to be the original tapered Bores, and, is intended for .45 ACP Cartridges with Moon Clips.

Ends of Cylinder Bores, are .457


Barrel major inside diameter, is also .457


Bullet shape of course, for the Revolver, is not an issue as it may be for the Colt M1911 or it's kin.

For my re-Loading, I am mostly interested in mid-weight Wad Cutters like the old 'SAECO' #453 of 230 grains, if I could find a Mold somewhere for Casting them.


Wishing to re-Load for this Revolver, I would like to have Dies for expanding the empty Shell mouths to about .453 anyway if need be, or .454 even, and, to have some method for Crimping them well.

I had noticed that regular 'Hard Ball' would fire with no Rifling impressions in the Bullet. This led me to measure the Chamber ends, and, the Barrel's major diameter inside.


Regular reloading Dies for .45 ACP will not work...and, .45 Colt Dies are too deep to Crimp, and or, too small anyway for either expanding or crimping, since modern .45 Colt is .452.



Ideas?


What can I do?

[sagacious]

Use an expander for .458" bullets for case-mouth expanding/belling. Polish it down a bit if need be. Depending on your brand of dies, you might be able to just swap out a .452" expander for a .458" one.

Cut down a .458" (45-70) roll-crimp die to 45ACP length. I think a LEE crimp die might work with the least amount of modification. You could also have a crimp die cut by a machinist. Good luck.

[Oyeboten]

Use an expander for .458" bullets for case-mouth expanding/belling. Polish it down a bit if need be. Depending on your brand of dies, you might be able to just swap out a .452" expander for a .458" one.

Cut down a .458" (45-70) roll-crimp die to 45ACP length. I think a LEE crimp die might work with the least amount of modification. You could also have a crimp die cut by a machinist. Good luck.



Thank you sagacious!


I do have an old set of "310" Dies for the 45-70 Cartridge...I will see if I can accomplish anything with those.

The most needed aspect of this is for the Crimp.

The old empty shells I have tried so far, I can insert a .453 Boolit by finger tips, so, the expansion is not so crucial right now.


Edit -


Looked over my 45-70 Dies.

I think they could be adapted, but yes, the Crimp Die would have to be cut down shorter.

I hate to butcher this set, which is old, never used, and NOS.

So, I will see about obtaining merely a Crimp Die of any make, for 45-70, and, modify it as need be.


Thanks!

I think that will work.

[Bret4207]

You might want to investigate cutting a 458 mould down too. Lee makes a little 350 gr job that you might be able to shorten by 100 gr's or so.

[Piedmont]

So what are you going to load as far as bullets? I fear your ideal .457" for that revolver won't fit the chambers. So maybe check that out first, because if you ended up using something like .454" the ACP dies will probably work because mine do.

This might be the perfect place for one of those expensive hollow base Webley moulds. Run them with soft alloys and shoot them slow. Let them slug up in your cylinder throats on ignition and use regular ACP dies. BTW most ACP seater dies will roll crimp if you screw them in far enough.

[Oyeboten]

You might want to investigate cutting a 458 mould down too. Lee makes a little 350 gr job that you might be able to shorten by 100 gr's or so.


I think .454 in a softer Alloy will work well.

It should upset well enough to fit the Barrel, and behave not too bad in the Chambers.


Actually, I sent off for a 100 once-fired .30-'06 Cartridge Cases, which I will cut down, and, reem, and see how those do also...and with those, they will not only be used with the full Moon Clips, but, will be about as long as .45 Colt, thus allowing a lot less jump...and they will use roughly .45 Colt Loadings if maybe a little stouter.

I may elect to modify a Mold for producing a Heeled Boolit of .454 or .455 diameter for thse Cartridge Cases to use...since it would allow an optimum fit of Boolit to far end of the tapered Cylinder Chambers, and Barrel.

[Oyeboten]

So what are you going to load as far as bullets? I fear your ideal .457" for that revolver won't fit the chambers. So maybe check that out first, because if you ended up using something like .454" the ACP dies will probably work because mine do.

This might be the perfect place for one of those expensive hollow base Webley moulds. Run them with soft alloys and shoot them slow. Let them slug up in your cylinder throats on ignition and use regular ACP dies. BTW most ACP seater dies will roll crimp if you screw them in far enough.


My first experiments, I was using .45 Colt Cases, since the Cylinder has tapered Bores and store bought .45 Colt Cartdridges always worked fine, and, though the .45 Colt Cartridges do have some generous Head Space, since the Revolver was intended for .45 ACP.

So for the me-load .45 Colt Cartridges, I was loading 10 Grains of 'Unique', and, using the old 'SAECO' #453 Wadcutter of 230 Grains...which is a fatter Bullet than Factory Ammunition would have now a days.


This gave me an average of 840 FPS, and seemed very likable.

Revolver has a 2-1/4 Inch Barrel.

One shell case seperated about 1/2 Inch up from the base, and, I decided, with some advise from others also, to re-think things, and, to only use Cartridge Cases which would work with the Full Moon Clips so as to have a close and proper Head Space.


The issues I wish to resolve then are mostly to respect Cylinder Bore diameters of .457, and Barrel major diameter of .457 also, and, Booit jump in the Cylinder, for which I decided to try modifying .30-'06 Cases ( bought but not yet arrived in the Mail).

So for now, and also just to see, I am intending to load some regular old .45 ACP cases, using the 'SAECO' # 453, 230 Grain Wadcutter...Loaded to a normal .45 ACP Loading for that weight Bullet...but, I have no way to Crimp them.


This will be a Carry Revolver.

I used to carry it daily years ago, but, I was young and naive and I had no idea the regular .45 ACP or .45 Colt Ammunition was such a poor undersize fit for the Cylinder Bores and Barrel.

Once finding that out, I decided to experiment toward a resolution.


So, my intended Boolits would be me-cast, 12-ish BRN Lead, once I have right Molds, and, be mid weight flat front Wadcutters or hollow front flat base, intended only for close range and as SD ( reliably hitting say, a Golf Ball at ten Yards in slow fire, or, however good or bad in rapid fire )...if with some light-load options for plinking, of course, now and then.


I won a ten dollar Bet once hitting a Golf Ball with my first shot at ten yards with this Revolver, using old surplus Hard Ball, and in looking back, I am amazed I was able to do that with how bad the Bullets actually fit!


Good Boollit Fit, and good Cartridge Case kind, should improve the Gun's accuracy and power, whether it does anything for my Aim or not...Lol...

I love the Full Moon Clips, also.

[HeavyMetal]

Try to scre an old RCBS die set for the 45 Auto rim cartridge.

This is the brass case with the super huge rim on it for us in the 1917 Colt and S&W revolvers.

It should be set up to roll crimp and have a 454 expander plug in it.

As far as a boolit is concerned: Redding bought Saeco years ago and still catalogs the 453 as a 225 grain WC. Think in your case I would call Redding, 607-753-3331, and see if they would cut me one, or had QC culled one, in .458 diameter.

[Oyeboten]

Try to scre an old RCBS die set for the 45 Auto rim cartridge.

This is the brass case with the super huge rim on it for us in the 1917 Colt and S&W revolvers.

It should be set up to roll crimp and have a 454 expander plug in it.

As far as a boolit is concerned: Redding bought Saeco years ago and still catalogs the 453 as a 225 grain WC. Think in your case I would call Redding, 607-753-3331, and see if they would cut me one, or had QC culled one, in .458 diameter.



Thank you HeavyMetal..!


I will look into both of these.

[Piedmont]

I believe that the traditional conical .45 Colt bullets as loaded by Winchester and Remington are both .454/.455 and one has a cup base and the other a hollow base. So those .45 Colts probably were not a bad way to go, other than the headspace issue.

If you are going to use cut down .30-06 cases, why not leave them the length of the cylinder? Think of doing that and deep seating a hollow base .454-.455 bullet. It seems to me like that would work well. Ream your .30-06 cases just enough to work well with those bullets yet give enough resistance to recoil that they don't creep forward. If you leave the cases the length of the cylinder you won't get gas cutting and with the hollow base they would bump up in the barrel. You might have to go softer than air cooled wheel weight alloy.

[nicholst55]

You might have some success with either the Lyman 457191 or the Saeco 300 grain .458 boolit in your revolver, assuming that ammo loaded with them will chamber. Worth a look anyway, and you may be able to scrounge or borrow a handful of them from board members.

[Oyeboten]

I believe that the traditional conical .45 Colt bullets as loaded by Winchester and Remington are both .454/.455 and one has a cup base and the other a hollow base. So those .45 Colts probably were not a bad way to go, other than the headspace issue.


As far as I had been able to tell, they were more like .452

All modern .45 Colt revolvers, I am told, anticipate a .451 Jacketed, or a .452 Alloy-Lead Bullet, same as .45 ACP.

Whereas, the older .45 Colt revolvers, anticipated a .454 Bullet, more or less.




If you are going to use cut down .30-06 cases, why not leave them the length of the cylinder? Think of doing that and deep seating a hollow base .454-.455 bullet. It seems to me like that would work well. Ream your .30-06 cases just enough to work well with those bullets yet give enough resistance to recoil that they don't creep forward. If you leave the cases the length of the cylinder you won't get gas cutting and with the hollow base they would bump up in the barrel. You might have to go softer than air cooled wheel weight alloy.


Well...I did think about that, but, I decided I would rather use a Bullet or Boolit which is 1 or 2 Thousandths smaller than the Cylinder Bores, and, for it to be 'Heeled' for where it fits into the Cases. Possibly this way, I would not even have to reem the Case mouths, or I could reem them, as may be, for the Heel.


But this would allow a very good Bullet/Boolit fit for the Barrel.



If I had the .30-'06 Cases full Cylinder Length, the Bullets/Boolits would of course have to be the size of the inside Case mouth diameter, which would then be quite a bit smaller than what I would want for the Barrel to be dealing with.

[Oyeboten]

I just found an old Crimp Die here from a 'Dillon' Press I used to have...Die is for .45 ACP, and, it slides over the fatter .453 Bullet alright.

No good way to hold it, but, I can improvise till getting a proper Die to try.


Well, this will a really fun outfit once I have it all worked out..!

[462]

Oyeboten,
I have a S&W .455 Second Model Hand Ejector snubbie that has .457" throats and groove, too. It's been a real challenge finding a boolit for it. I had some Remington 255 grain .454s, with the depression in the base, but had a severe leading problem. Beagled a Lee 452-255 RF to about .458" and ran the boolits through a .457" sizer, but ran into seating problems in both .45 ACP and .45 AR cases. The fat boolit did chamber, however there was still a nasty leading problem.

As Sagacious mentioned, the seating problem would be corrected with a .458" expander plug. Then I could play around with alloys and powders...again.

The gun, being 94-years-old is not in the best of condition, and, due to the barrel being lopped off, the historical value is gone, but I would like to get it to shoot, nonetheless.

[Piedmont]

Oyeboten, With respect, I believe you are in error on those Winchester and Remington bullets and what they measure. Somebody at Handloader magazine, probably Scoville or Pearce, went into detail on those bullets with pictures and measurements. Also, they are swaged, and soft to permit swaging. A soft .455" bullet will easily fit a .452 cylinder throat or barrel. Also, that conical shape is smaller on the nose than the bands measure. I own the Lyman 454190 which is the same shape sans hollow base and the nose is around .450".

With regards to your heel bullet, that is interesting and may be the way to go. I suggest you google "480 Achilles" and read a four part section put together by Jim Taylor and three cohorts. You will learn a lot and probably form opinions on how to tackle designing a bullet and a heel crimping tool.

Our own Harry O has also written pretty extensively on the .41 Colt and his experiments with heeled bullets. A PM to him would direct you to those articles I am sure. I would also pay attention to whatever way he thinks you should best approach your problem.

It still might be cheaper in the long run to buy one of those expensive RCBS hollow base bullet moulds for Webleys. Cast it soft and let it slug up.

[Oyeboten]

Oyeboten,
I have a S&W .455 Second Model Hand Ejector snubbie that has .457" throats and groove, too. It's been a real challenge finding a boolit for it.


Oh! Post some images of it...I'd love to see it.



I had some Remington 255 grain .454s, with the depression in the base, but had a severe leading problem.


Where would one get those? Sounds like a good one for me to try.



Beagled a Lee 452-255 RF to about .458" and ran the boolits through a .457" sizer, but ran into seating problems in both .45 ACP and .45 AR cases. The fat boolit did chamber, however there was still a nasty leading problem.

A different Lube maybe?

What kind of FPS were these doing?




As Sagacious mentioned, the seating problem would be corrected with a .458" expander plug. Then I could play around with alloys and powders...again.

The gun, being 94-years-old is not in the best of condition, and, due to the barrel being lopped off, the historical value is gone, but I would like to get it to shoot, nonetheless.


Understood...same with me and mine.

I am very fond of my Colt, and it is great fun to shoot.

If I can get my Loading details worked out, I can have some very good ammunition for it, for Carry, and, for fun.


Is your S&W Cylinder still original and not modified? Chambering only the .455 Cartridge?

[Oyeboten]

Oyeboten, With respect, I believe you are in error on those Winchester and Remington bullets and what they measure. Somebody at Handloader magazine, probably Scoville or Pearce, went into detail on those bullets with pictures and measurements. Also, they are swaged, and soft to permit swaging. A soft .455" bullet will easily fit a .452 cylinder throat or barrel. Also, that conical shape is smaller on the nose than the bands measure. I own the Lyman 454190 which is the same shape sans hollow base and the nose is around .450".


Ohhh, okay, so that is good news then on the Bullet matter...far as Bullets go, and this is good to hear.


I will try finding some of these Bullets then, to try out.

I have several older .45 Colt Revolvers with larger Cylinder Bores and Barrels...for which variety in Bullets would be nice.


I am sitting in the back of the Class you know...doing my best to move 'up'.

I never thought about any of this till a few months ago, till last November, so all I have been learning,such as it is, is pretty well a crash course, and lots of brooding.

I intentionally limited my self to Black Powder and some '777' since beginning for the re-loading I have been doing...and have only had one ( I loaded 8 Rounds, meticulously ) foray with 'Unique'a week or so ago, which seemed a fine success to me, and, led to this Revolver being now an intended matter to perfect Ammunition for.




With regards to your heel bullet, that is interesting and may be the way to go. I suggest you google "480 Achilles" and read a four part section put together by Jim Taylor and three cohorts. You will learn a lot and probably form opinions on how to tackle designing a bullet and a heel crimping tool.

Sounds very interesting, will do..!


( Edit: Wow...good Article...thank you! Was a fun read...)




Our own Harry O has also written pretty extensively on the .41 Colt and his experiments with heeled bullets. A PM to him would direct you to those articles I am sure. I would also pay attention to whatever way he thinks you should best approach your problem.


Okeydoke. I will do so.


I want to use Cut Down .30-'06 Cases, reemed a little at the front...and, a Heeled Boolit shaped like a Beer Can, but for the Heel being smaller, of course...and, for the Boolit to be 230 Grains.

Exact Bullet diameter to be elected for an easy if noticable Thumb-press fit to the Cylinder Bores for 'snug'...so, probably Boolit would be .455-ish...maybe .456.

I want every bit of FPS I cana get, without bulging the poor old thing...and, it is a Strong Revolver in it's way, so, 'effeciency, effeciency, effeciency' for the interior Ballistics is my Guide.

It is a 2-1/4 Inch Barrel.

So long as I can manage, say, hitting a Ping Pong Ball at ten Yards, slow fire, ( one handed, as always ) I will be happy as far as 'Accuracy' for the Bullet form and shape is concerned.

If I can do that, I can hit a Beer Can at 25 Yards.

"Good Enuf"

I can do that already with the terrible fit of .45 ACP Hard Ball, for that matter.

I want 850 FPS, or more, but no less.




Do I have a 'problem' or, a fun project?

I thought it was ( is ) a fun project!


Lol...


This is fun, and it is a nice old Revolver to be working with to solve the challenge of good, well fitting Ammunition for it...and this is where it has led, so far.

My other thought, was to use some sort of cut down Rifle Case, and, to have the Cylinder Bores reemed for a Step, so I would not have to use a Heeled Boolit, for the Boolit to be a true .454 in diameter.





It still might be cheaper in the long run to buy one of those expensive RCBS hollow base bullet moulds for Webleys. Cast it soft and let it slug up.


Could be...

I just feel bad imaging the flanges of the Hollow Base slapping the Forcing Cone as they go by.

I might see about getting the Forcing Cone shaped right for Lead, too...since it is probably shaped for Hardball, or, who knows.



Thanks very much!

While waiting for my .30-'06 Cases to arrive, I have begun experimenting with .45 ACP Cases, but I am uncertain as for the Loading Density for this Bullet ( 230 Grain, .453 diameter, 'SAECO' #453 ) since it's Crimp Groove, with 7 Grains of 'Unique' in the Case, seems to put the Bullet Base just about onto the Powder, and, this scared me, so I have paused, pending more perspctive or input.


Image showing the situaiton, of this Bullet, and, the .45 ACP Case, sort of -

http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/44456/2550180810067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2550180810067835264nQyaHH)


Possibly this Bullet was not designed to go on top of full or heavier Charges of 'Unique'...

How much room should a fellow have, between 7 Grains of 'Unique', and, the base of a 230 Grain Lead Bullet, in a .45 ACP Case?

[Piedmont]

Danger Will Robinson. Danger!

Oyeboten, Just noticed you edited and amended your post of yesterday. First you keep saying 320 grain Saeco which made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Then you post a picture of that wadcutter that is 230 so I think your 320 references meant 230 (might want to change that for others).

I see on rereading your post (I think maybe you just added it) that you had tried blackpowder. I almost mentioned that the other day as a possibility because it works so well in bumping up bullets. Why don't you cast that Saeco really soft, like 30-1 or softer, don't size it down, use black powder lube, fill the ACP case to the base of the bullet with triple f and see what happens?

Your load of 7 grains Unique in an ACP case is way too hot. I'm glad you got scared and stopped. Pull those bullets. A standard .45 Colt load (the long case) is 8.5 grains of Unique with bullet that projects much more out of the case. Seven grains would probably be about right for that bullet you are using in the big .45 Colt case. You are just asking for trouble if you shoot those in the ACP case.

You have some interesting ideas on what you want to do and how to proceed, but you mentioned and it seems apparent also that you are fairly new to this. Your project is post-graduate handloading. So keep it simple (like using the blackpowder or buying that hollow base mould and using the ACP cases) or wait until you have learned more before proceeding. I mean no offense by the above but the seven of Unique with that wadcutter in an ACP case.......well, I wouldn't even want to be at the range when you touched that off.

You have a cool old revolver which will never be made again, and eyes and hands that are irreplaceable

[Oyeboten]

Danger Will Robinson. Danger!

Oyeboten, Just noticed you edited and amended your post of yesterday. First you keep saying 320 grain Saeco which made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Then you post a picture of that wadcutter that is 230 so I think your 320 references meant 230 (might want to change that for others).


Ohhhhhhhhh, how embarassing.

Yes, Bullet is "230 Grains"


I will go back and ammend.

I must be getting dyslexic in my otherwise happy go lucky and overworked middle age.


Thank you for noticing that..!


Yeah, 'Three-Hundred-and-Twenty Grains would make a lot of difference! ( Too heavy for my purpose also ).




I see on rereading your post (I think maybe you just added it) that you had tried blackpowder. I almost mentioned that the other day as a possibility because it works so well in bumping up bullets. Why don't you cast that Saeco really soft, like 30-1 or softer, don't size it down, use black powder lube, fill the ACP case to the base of the bullet with triple f and see what happens?

I sent off for these Bullets originally, to use in some of my Cap & Ball Revolvers, where, not surprisingly, they performed wonderfully.


I am very fond of Black Powder, and, of '777' for Metallic Cartridge Revolver.

Since this Revolver will chamber .45 Colt Cases ( even though I am not going to do that any more with it unless low power for Plinking ) I was Loading this Bullet over Black Powder, and '777' in .45 Colt, and shooting them in this ( and other ) Revolvers.

I loaded a batch with the Bullet upside-down also, to allow more Powder.


These worked very well, and gave good Velocity in longer Barrels.


'777' - no compression - with upside-down Bullet gave 735 FPS in the Snubby ( this Revolver I am wishing to Load specificially for).


35 Grains BP - heavy-ish compression - and Bullet loaded backwards or upside-down, gave 656 FPS.


10 Grains of 'Unique' in .45 Colt Case, gave me 842 in the Snubby, and I felt satisfied with that for a Velocity for this Bullet which would do well for SD contexts.

Not that mid 6s or mid 7s would not manage well, of course. But, 842 may have spoiled me somehow. somhow 842 just Rang the Bell and I decided right then and there I was happy.

But, that is to stout for using .45 Colt Cases in this Revolver with it's Head Space anticipating the use of Moon Clips...so...




Your load of 7 grains Unique in an ACP case is way too hot. I'm glad you got scared and stopped. Pull those bullets.


Well, I did not Load any of the .45 ACP Cases other than a dummy...it was a prospective thing, and I paused once seeing how there was going to be about no Air Gap inside.


My Lyman Handbook from the early 1950s allows 7.7 Grains 'Unique under a 230 Grain Jacketed Bullet. But that Bullet likely sits a little higher.



A standard .45 Colt load (the long case) is 8.5 grains of Unique with bullet that projects much more out of the case. Seven grains would probably be about right for that bullet you are using in the big .45 Colt case. You are just asking for trouble if you shoot those in the ACP case.



Yes...I have too much Head Space with this Revolver for any peppy .45 Colt loadings.


Or, I need to have an air space allowing a density which we all can live with for the .45 ACP Cases.

If 7.7 Grains under a 230 Grain Hardball, in .45 ACP was considered alright as max by 'Lyman' and others when I was a kid...my thought was, that 7 Grains, under a nice friendly Lead Bullet of same weight, should have been alright too. Just the Crimping Groove location of the "SAECO" # 453 puts the Bullet down too far, and occasioned about no Air Space between Bullet Base and Powder...and I got interested in finding out what the Air Space should be.

If I had an example of the 230 Grain Hardball 'Lyman' had in mind, I could deduce the Air Space it had allowed.






You have some interesting ideas on what you want to do and how to proceed, but you mentioned and it seems apparent also that you are fairly new to this.



Yes...I am fairly new to this.

And, I had also limited myself intentionally to Black Powder and '777' for all my Hand Loading so far, untill just a week and a half or so ago, when, I did my first small batch of .45 Colt Cartridges with 'Uniquie'.



Your project is post-graduate handloading. So keep it simple (like using the blackpowder or buying that hollow base mould and using the ACP cases) or wait until you have learned more before proceeding. I mean no offense by the above but the seven of Unique with that wadcutter in an ACP case.......well, I wouldn't even want to be at the range when you touched that off.


I do wish to Cast my own, and shall ( and have, for .454 Ball, and, for various .38 Special Boolits)...but I have not found a Mold yet for thie sort of .453 or a tad chubbier Wadcutter.

Again though, I did reference several Loading Handbooks in which 7.7 Grains of 'Unique' were allowed under a 230 Grain Hardball Bullet in .45 ACP.

So it is not like I was ( in my mind anyway, ) being impetuous or overly naive!

Lol...

And, I do wish to understand Loading Density in order to appreciate conditions I am creating or inviting in following Published Loads, and, in electing the Bullets those Loads will have.




You have a cool old revolver which will never be made again, and eyes and hands that are irreplaceable


Yes...


And, we only live once...also.

Or, who knows, maybe there is Reincarnation, but by the time I could come back again, and be of age, it might not be so easy to own and shoot and load for such a Revolver.


I set out to have deferential Ammunition suited specifically to this Revolver, with it's over-size Barrel diameter and over-size tapered Cylinder Bores.


I used to carry this Revolver, but, I had no idea the Bullets ( .45 ACP off the shelf ) were so poor a fit, till examining some recovered Hardball, I saw no rifleing impressions, and, merely a frosted aspect of where the Bullet has passed through and been lightly scraped by the Rifleing. Barrel has tolerabl;y good Rifling, so, it is not as if it is a Smooth Bore or worn out.


The Loadings I would like for Carry, would not be my 'plinking' Rounds.

Carry Rounds would maybe be have three or four a year for fun if that, and, the rest would be Plinking Rounds.



Just so you know.

[Piedmont]

The only time I had something scary happen with my handloads was about 20 years ago loading a printed load of 7.2 grains of Unique with a 230 gr. truncated cone in a .45 ACP. A case head let go. My face got sprayed, I thought the gun had blown up, and when I looked at my face in a mirror (after checking out the gun) I was bleeding. I have never tried for "full power" automatic loads since. I load practice ammo (low pressure) and carry factory in them.

Since that time Alliant has slightly quickened the burning rate of that powder, making that load even more overpressure. Your wadcutter load with it's deep seating would be even higher in pressure.

I just remembered, since you seem to want a wadcutter, that RCBS makes or made both a round nose Webley hollowbase mould and a wadcutter HB mould. These used to be on the Buffalo Arms website and probably still are, should you want to have a look.

A lot of the old manual data will get you in trouble. The Speer #8 is notorious for this.

[DLCTEX]

Would the Lee mould for the ROA 457-230 be useful in this situation?

[MtGun44]

Try to purchase some Win or Rem factory LEAD boolits for .45 LC. These are hollow
based to deal with exactly this problem.

Bill

[Oyeboten]

The only time I had something scary happen with my handloads was about 20 years ago loading a printed load of 7.2 grains of Unique with a 230 gr. truncated cone in a .45 ACP. A case head let go. My face got sprayed, I thought the gun had blown up, and when I looked at my face in a mirror (after checking out the gun) I was bleeding. I have never tried for "full power" automatic loads since. I load practice ammo (low pressure) and carry factory in them.


I appreciate your mentioning this Piedmont.

A possibly Bad Case, one time, is kind of not much to go on as for deciding what really happened though.

.45 ACP is a pretty strong Case up in the head region...

I just don't know what happened there...nor do I have any idea what the Loading Density was for that Bullet in that Cartridge where the Cartridge Case failed in that way. Too much Head Space could do it, if it seperated up a little ways from the Head proper, where, with a lesser Charge, the Case may have gotten away with it.

So this might have been a Head Space issue, and not a charging issue.




Since that time Alliant has slightly quickened the burning rate of that powder, making that load even more overpressure. Your wadcutter load with it's deep seating would be even higher in pressure.



I have not loaded the Cartridge in that way, since I did not trust the Loading Density with that Bullet being set and Crimped to it's Crimp Groove.

I was not saying I would.


I am looking for viable Handloaded ammunition I can produce, for this particular Revolver.

I presented what I had to work with, and, I did not trust having no or almost no Air Space between Powder and Bullet.




I just remembered, since you seem to want a wadcutter, that RCBS makes or made both a round nose Webley hollowbase mould and a wadcutter HB mould. These used to be on the Buffalo Arms website and probably still are, should you want to have a look.


Well, I want a Flat Base Bullet though, which is also a flat front Wadcutter...at least for using the .45 ACP Brass.



A lot of the old manual data will get you in trouble. The Speer #8 is notorious for this.


I know this is sometimes said...I just have not yet understood to my satisfaction, why it is sometimes said.

Some say this, others say the old Loadings are fine.


There are many factors at play.


Right now I am paused and trying to learn more, before I proceed.

[Oyeboten]

Would the Lee mould for the ROA 457-230 be useful in this situation?


I don't know...I will see if I can find out some info on it.


Thanks!

[Oyeboten]

Well, I got my 100 empty once-shot .30-'06 Shell Cases in.

They are nice...these will work very well I think for the Revolver, once shortened and reamed.

I feel all fired up about the project! But darn it, I have lots of other obligations now which will be filling my days over the brim, so, things will have to wait a while.

A Mold for a .454 Heeled Boolit of 230-260 Grain Weight...a way to Crimp it...and I will be one ( '1' ) Happy Boy with a very interesing combo of Revolver, Moon Clips, and Cartridges...allowing me full Black Powder or 777 Loadings, and many Smokeless ( with respectful Loading Densities, of course ) Loadings to choose from, to have fun with for Plinking or Carry.


Plus, I will experiment with .45 ACP Cases, also, once I am having some time again to do so...and find some Bullets and or Molds for .454-ish ways of happiness...full flat front Wadcutters, especially.

I have a Metal Lathe I have never run.

I am confident I could learn it.

I could make a Cherry for a Boolit, and, make a Mold then with that...say, a Brass Mold just to make things a little less trying for a first timer.

That'd sure be fun to try.

[45 2.1]

Having been thru this scenario several times myself, I will tell you what works. Get yourself a hollow base mold........... Lyman made three for the 45 cal....all obsolete now, RCBS makes two... the one for the 455 Webley is excellent. OR get Buckshot to make you a swage die......... He made me one for the 455 Manstopper boolit which has a cupped base and nose........... VERY effective. Either option will shoot very well and take almost non-existent oversize rifling. All of these need to be cast out of very soft alloy...... 30:1 or 40:1 work pretty well.

[Oyeboten]

Hi 45 2.1,


Say, can you post some images of your 'Manstopper' Bullets?

That is what I was originally after.

The Swaging Die is appealing also...I think my Lyman EZY-Loader might handle it if dead soft or close to it...if such Dies were to fit it's Threads.

[45 2.1]

Hi 45 2.1,


Say, can you post some images of your 'Manstopper' Bullets?

That is what I was originally after.

The Swaging Die is appealing also...I think my Lyman EZY-Loader might handle it if dead soft or close to it...if such Dies were to fit it's Threads.

Look here at the British pistol service bullets, Webley Mark III
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/11420/t/455-Manstopper-bullet-specs.html#reply-11420

[MtGun44]

For these massively oversized throats, see if you can buy Rem or Win .45LC lead boolits
in bulk. These are hollow based to deal with this problem in .45LC SAAs with .457-.458
throats.

Elmer recommended 7.5 gr Unique under his 240 gr (IIRC) 452423. I never was willing
to load this hot for my old 1937 S&W .45ACP revo. I did go up to 7.0 gr and this moved
the impact from level but well left (~6") at 25 yds to about 1" left and level at 25yds. Also,
a large enough boolit (needed .454) helped accy tremendously.

Bill

[Oyeboten]

Look here at the British pistol service bullets, Webley Mark III
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/11420/t/455-Manstopper-bullet-specs.html#reply-11420


Those look very nice...I would be interested in finding a source or Molds.


Any ideas where to look?

[Oyeboten]

For these massively oversized throats, see if you can buy Rem or Win .45LC lead boolits
in bulk. These are hollow based to deal with this problem in .45LC SAAs with .457-.458
throats.


I will try looking...

I'd love to have some regardless, since I have other .45 Colt Revolvers I would like to load for, as well as the 'Snubby'.




Elmer recommended 7.5 gr Unique under his 240 gr (IIRC) 452423. I never was willing
to load this hot for my old 1937 S&W .45ACP revo. I did go up to 7.0 gr and this moved
the impact from level but well left (~6") at 25 yds to about 1" left and level at 25yds. Also,
a large enough boolit (needed .454) helped accy tremendously.

Bill


What was Mr. Keith's Revolver? Do we know?


I was using 10 Grains of 'Unique' in the .45 Colt Cartridges, and it seemed very agreeable with the 230 Grain 'SAECO' Wadcutter...though I was told this may be in fact a little too stout.


Have not loaded any .45 ACP yet, so that is still pending.


Got swamped with other obliges, and had to move my reloading things aside for the time being...maybe for a while.


But the loading densities of these two are of course very different!

7.5 does sound 'warm' and likely memorable, for .45 ACP...

[MtGun44]

S&W 1917, same as mine other than 20 year production gap and a Brazilian crest on
mine.

.45-2.1 is right on for cast boolits, the factory uses HB as the solution to this problem.
It is THE fix.

Bill

[45 2.1]

Those look very nice...I would be interested in finding a source or Molds.
Any ideas where to look?

The hollow base molds are available from NEI, RCBS and older Lyman molds. You cannot find a mold that casts hollow bases at both ends unless someone would try to make one, and it would be expensive. Send a PM to Buckshot on this site about making you a swaging die.

[Char-Gar]

Stop..back up! You do not have a Colt New Service in 45 ACP. Both the Colt Model 1917 and New service has a barrel groove diameter of .452 in both 45 ACP and 45 Colt. There is no way that could wear or stretch to .457.

I suspect you have a Colt New Service in .455 Eley. These were produced for Canadian and British military about 1905 and years ago some were imported in the country. Many had their barrels shortened.

The 455 Eley was similiar to the 45 Colt but shorter with a thinner rim. These pistols would also shoot the 455 Webley round. These were mild round shooting a 260 grain bullet at about 700 fps.

Many of these pistols were modified to shoot the 45 Colt round by milling a little off the back of the cylinder to accomidate the thicker Colt rim.

Some of the pistols were modified to shoot the 45 ACP round in clips by milling the back of the cylinder to give enough space. This didn't prove to be a satisfactory conversion because the bullets were too small for the larger barrel and accuracy was nil.

A pistol with the cylinder modified to shoot the 45 Colt round SHOULD NOT accept the 45 ACP round in clips.

If this pistol is a converted 455 Eley, there will be no British Broad Arrow proof on the back of the cylinder. It would have been removed when the cylinder was opened up for the Colt or ACP round.

These handguns are a century old, with century old metal. Most have seen hard use by the Brits in the bargain. You would be ill advised to try and turn this into a 2010 defense pistol. It doesn't take much pressure to crack the cylinders of these old boys.

You pistol should have British proof marks to show it's history. But they may have been polished off at some time. You have an interesting relic of WWI and before, with zero collector's value because of the modifications. You really do need to back up, find out what you have and rethink your goal for it's use. You should not handload until you know what you have and the proper way to go about making rounds for it.

I suspect you will fine you have a British/Canadian Colt New Service in .455 Eley that has some material removed from the back of the cylinder to accomidate the 45 Colt rim. Such a pistol won't accept the ACP round in clips. If this is what you have, you will be well advised to use the 45 Colt case and bullets of a correct fit for the barrel not to exceed 260 grains. You loads should be kept mild and not exceed the 700 to 800 fps range or lower to keep the pistol all in one piece.

Note: Elmer Keith's old 45 acp load for the Colt 1917 and New service was his 240+ grain 452423 over 7.5/ Unique. Some used the heavier 454424 with the same powder charge. These loads are fine in Post-War Colt and Smith and Wesson DA sixguns, but shoot them in the early Pre-War guns long enough and you will crack a cylinder or worse.

[MtGun44]

Note again I am NOT recommending the old Keith load. However, 7.0 did move the
accy up a LOT and the POI very close to the POA, which is NOT true with lower powered
loads. And, yes, mine are with the 452423.

Bill

[Grapeshot]

I think .454 in a softer Alloy will work well.

It should upset well enough to fit the Barrel, and behave not too bad in the Chambers.


Actually, I sent off for a 100 once-fired .30-'06 Cartridge Cases, which I will cut down, and, reem, and see how those do also...and with those, they will not only be used with the full Moon Clips, but, will be about as long as .45 Colt, thus allowing a lot less jump...and they will use roughly .45 Colt Loadings if maybe a little stouter.

I may elect to modify a Mold for producing a Heeled Boolit of .454 or .455 diameter for thse Cartridge Cases to use...since it would allow an optimum fit of Boolit to far end of the tapered Cylinder Chambers, and Barrel.

You might try some .45 Win Mag cases. They would be easier to deal with than cutting down and reaming .30-06 or .308 WCF cases.

[Oyeboten]

Hi Chagar,



Appreciate the mentions.

No British Proofs or other Stamps.

Cylinder Face has a tiny "H" Stamp is all.

Barrel says "COLT DA 45"

Cyliner Bores are tapered.


Accepts .45 Colt, .45 Auto Rim, or .45 ACP.


But with the Cylinder Bore diameters and Barrel major diameter...I found I needed chubbier Bullets than Factory versions of these CArtridges have.

http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/208_78/109_198/MVC760S-th.jpg (http://hotimg23.fotki.com/p/a/208_78/109_198/MVC760S.jpg)

[Oyeboten]

You might try some .45 Win Mag cases. They would be easier to deal with than cutting down and reaming .30-06 or .308 WCF cases.


Too late! Lol...

I got some .30 '06 Cases Mail Order.

I will also experiment with plain old .45 Auto Cases even though they are less than ideal in some ways for this Revolver.

I like the long aspect of the .30 '06 Cases ( once trimmed or cut down and reamed )...and, I will intend a Heeled Bullet to allow a nice fit to the Cylinder Bores.

Just sent off for an old 'IDEAL' Mold for a .454 250-something grain Boolit having a Hollow Base. The Hollow Base insert is missing.

I was thinking, I could make a Hollow Base insert, which also makes a Heeled Boolit...with no modifcation of the nice old Mold.

It would be easy to also just make a Hollow-Base insert Tool also of course...for the Bullet to be used in a normal form for other Revolvers.


My final goal is a flat front or wide-hollow front Bullet of about 225-230 Grains...'Heeled' also, for the .30 '06 Cases.

I think normal 'safe' Loadings would still be able to push this close to the 800 mark in this Revolver.

[GLL]

RCBS #57919
http://www.fototime.com/1992098DEF00B45/standard.jpg

[Char-Gar]

Something isn't right here! What does you mean.. major bore... The critical barrel dimensions are the groove diameter and the distance across the lands. Unless you are measuring the barre
forcing cone you should not get a diameter of more than .452. There is just no way the barrel groove diamter could be .457. That is why this term "major" makes me wonder.
The cylinder mouth measurement of .457 is about right for these pistols.

Does this pistol have any rifling in the barrel? There were some 1917s that had the barrels bored out to use with shot cartridges made from 30-06 cases. Fred Harvey of Lakeville arms did this back in the 50's. He had to stop as the BATF ruled they were illegal short barrel shotguns.

Colt DA 45 is the barrel markings for the military model 1917. The commercial pistols have the words New Service followed by the caliber.

The early Colt 1917s had cylinders without the ledge to hold the case mouth of the 45 ACP round. These pistols had to be use the half moon clips to establish headspace and to keep the rounds from falling down into the chambers. The later 1917s had the ledge and 45 ACP rounds could be used without clips, although the fired rounds had to be picked out one by one, as the ejector star would not catch them. The same will be true if you try and use 30-06 cases without clips.

The early 1917s will accept a 45 Colt round, but should not be fired as the headspace distance would be to excessive.

I am trying to figure this out, as the numbers that have been posted just can't be if the pistol was not a 455 Eley. I do know my way around these old Colts and don't want you to get hurt as there is something not right here.

[Oyeboten]

Something isn't right here! What does you mean.. major bore... The critical barrel dimensions are the groove diameter and the distance across the lands. Unless you are measuring the barre
forcing cone you should not get a diameter of more than .452. There is just no way the barrel groove diamter could be .457. That is why this term "major" makes me wonder.
The cylinder mouth measurement of .457 is about right for these pistols.



Thanks Chargar,


It is an odd Revolver, to be sure.


The diameter of the spaces between the Lands in the Barrel, being to my mind, the Major diameter...the diameter betwen the tops of the Lands, being to my mind the minor diameter.

When I used to say 'Bore' people would get mad or critical.


I gave up trying to figure out what to call the diamater of the spaces between the Lands, other than, calling it the major diameter.


No, I was not measuring at the Forcing Cone.

I was measuring at the Muzzle, or as far in as the Verneer Caliper jaws would reach anyway.


Normal .45 ACP 'Hardball' Bullets can be fired with no Rifleing impressions occuring.




Does this pistol have any rifling in the barrel?


Yes...it has Rifleing present.



There were some 1917s that had the barrels bored out to use with shot cartridges made from 30-06 cases. Fred Harvey of Lakeville arms did this back in the 50's. He had to stop as the BATF ruled they were illegal short barrel shotguns.

Colt DA 45 is the barrel markings for the military model 1917. The commercial pistols have the words New Service followed by the caliber.




Interesting!


Not this Revolver though...it has a Rifled Barrel.




The early Colt 1917s had cylinders without the ledge to hold the case mouth of the 45 ACP round. These pistols had to be use the half moon clips to establish headspace and to keep the rounds from falling down into the chambers.


Yes...

Understood.

This one has tapered Cylinder Bores, which, if using .45 ACP, require the use of Moon Clips.




The later 1917s had the ledge and 45 ACP rounds could be used without clips, although the fired rounds had to be picked out one by one, as the ejector star would not catch them. The same will be true if you try and use 30-06 cases without clips.

The early 1917s will accept a 45 Colt round, but should not be fired as the headspace distance would be to excessive.


Never had any issues firing .45 Colt with it...other than one of the experimental rounds using 'UNIQUE' which I loaded up, and was testing, following firing some Black Powder rounds, and, one of the .45 Colt rounds with 'UNIQUE' had a seperation occur.


Nothing remarkable was noted, other than that when ejecting, only 1/2 an inch worth of the Head and Cartridge Base ejected for that round, and, the rest was left in the Cylinder.

The other rounds ejected fine, and showed no signs of discomfort.

Granted, the Headspace is generous if firing .45 Colt, and I understand that, and I do not intend to do it it anymore.

In a clean Cylinder, clean .45 Colt Cases, I doubt I would have had the Case walls grip the Cylinder side hard enough to occasion a tension issue.


But, I had been firing a few dozen full charge Black Powder rounds immediately before.




I am trying to figure this out, as the numbers that have been posted just can't be if the pistol was not a 455 Eley. I do know my way around these old Colts and don't want you to get hurt as there is something not right here.


It has seemed curious to me also!!


Lol...


Hence, my embarking on a plan to re-load 'Dedicated' Cartridges for it.

[Char-Gar]

My last comment and then I will leave you to your dedicated handloading.

You really can't take barrel groove diamter measurments with a set of calipers due to the arrangment of the lands and groove, plus the fact even the best set of calipers have a flat spot on the jaws plus the rounded interior surface of the barrel. Calipers works well on flat surfaces or on the outside of round surfaces. Calipers on the inside of a tube will always be off.

A machinest will use either a pin guage or an expandable hole guage to take the inside measurment of a tube. The pin guage has a known diameter and the hole guage is measured with a micrometer. Both of these methods will give an accurate measurment of the bore/land/minor (your term) diamter and the cylinder throat diameter.

The only way available to the handloader to get an accurate measurment of the land/major (your term) diamter is by pushing a soft lead slug through the barrel and measuring it with a good micrometer.

To check this out, I took my high dollar Starret electronic digital caliper and tried the measure the groove diameter in a good Colt 1917 in 45 ACP. The barrel is marked Colt DA 45. I know from a prior measurment by slugging the groove diamter is .452. I could not get anything near an accurate reading with the calipers.

I would suggest you slug the barrel and take the measurments with a good micrometer. Until you do, you are working blind. I don't know what the slug will measure, but I will guarantee it won't measure .457.

In gun tech talk, the term bore refers to the size of the hole reamed in the barrel blank BEFORE it is rifled. The bore would therefore, refer to the diamter accross the lands and groove diamter is the distance between the bottom of the lands. Therefore..a .30 caliber rifle of nominal specs would have a bore/land diamter of .300 and a groove diameter of perhaps .308.

Shooting 45 Colt rounds with that excess headspace will sooner or later cause a case repture or head seperation. It may be the 1,043 shot, but it will happen. To do so is to flirt with injury or blindness. You survived one head separation, don't press your luck. You can also fire 44 Magnum ammo in that pistol, but I sure wouldn't do it. I have know people who have, but it was not intentional.

[Oyeboten]

Well, after a whole bunch of not much for progress in deed or follow-through, it occured to me last night, that .45 Colt Cases, could be modified to fit into Full Moon Clips, otherwise used for the .45 ACP Cartridges.


So, I very slightly deepened the small annular groove, and, moved it also very slightly to the rear, resulting in a thinner Rim, being then about the same as .45 ACP would be in those two aspects...and, allowing the .45 Colt Cartridges when in the Moon Clips to permit the Cylinder to Rotate ( if the Rim thickness were left be, there would be rubbing and too much drag ).

I loaded up Six, with 8 Grains of "UNIQUE", using my old "SAECO' 230 Grain Wadcutters, loaded backwards, thus making for even less Loading Density than a conventional same weight Bullet would have, were it seated to normal depth.


I hope to get out to the Range tomorrow and try them.


Images -

The .45 Colt Cartridges, fitted to the Full Moon Clip.

The ACP Moon Clip ast, the Cartridges have some old Wadcutter kind in them, which are different than the Bullets I am using...this was some old set up I had laying around for ever, casually used for comparison.

http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/44329/2480325180067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2480325180067835264LSvTRU)


Showing a Charged Moon Clip, loaded into the Cylinder -

http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/43931/2101839250067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2101839250067835264UGkNnH)


Showing a view of the Loaded Cylinder front -


http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/26450/2874628650067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2874628650067835264ypJHsS)


Image showing the crimp line, and, the Bullet depth once crimped.

Possibly, with 8 Grains of "UNIQUE", I would be alright to set this Bullet front side 'up', but, I was not sure, and have no Loading info for it, so -

http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/37671/2931895720067835264S600x600Q85.jpg (http://family.webshots.com/photo/2931895720067835264KQlcwd)

The Cartridge Case seen in the last image, I cut the groove too deep, and it will be discarded.

[462]

Oyeboten,
Now, that is the cat's meow. You've eliminated the problem of the .45ACP/AR's long jump to the forcing cone, and quite possibly a source of leading. Very ingenious.

I'll bet there are many .455 owners who would pay a goodly amount for a few hundred of your modified .45 Colt cases. I would, but the old Smith & Wesson has a new owner.

[Oyeboten]

On a Metal Lathe, these could be done very positively and forthrightly...taking only a few seconds each.

My own recourse was to my Wood Lathe, where, one of my home-made Chucks was able to hold the driven side just fine, and, a Live Center into the Primer Pocket...and, I made a little impromptu Tool for modifying the annular ring cut, which was slightly tedious to do by Hand, pausing to measure with a Verneer Dial Caliper, but, it went alright.


The annuler ring cut is still well below the top of the ample 'meat' of the interior Cartridge base, so, I do not expect any troubles with that.


'Range Report' later to-day ( I hope!)

[Oyeboten]

Well...got to the Range, and it was really windy out and kept blowing my Set up over, even weighed with Rocks.


I tried the new Rounds, and they worked splendidly.


I actually have now a second Revolver, an older Smith & Wesson, dating from ( I think ) 1916, originally in .455, but, whose Cylinder was converted to have a stepped Bore for .45 Colt, while also being shortened to accept .45 ACP and Moon Clips.


I elected to concentrate my efforts with this Revolver, instead of the Colt for now.


8 Grains of 'Unique' is a pleasant, mild, Load, very nice for Target Shooting I'd say.


The S & W has a 3-1/4 Inch Barrel.



The 8 Grains of 'UNIQUE' and the 230 Grain 'SAECO' in the S & W - FPS for which -


599
759
591
614
683
647


I had some other Cartridges I had made up some months ago, which I tried also.


These were .45 Colt, but, not adapted to allow Moon Clips.


30 Grains 3f BP, Lube Wafer, 230 Grain 'SAECO' Loaded normally, seated deep -

3 Rounds only -

772 FPS
771
830



35 Grains 3 F BP, Lube Wafer, loaded upside-down, held out -

789
628
621


Oddly, not as fast as 30 Grains was.




I do not know why I was having such variations in FPS for same load Cartridges...or for higher loading Cartridges being slower FPS.


I was meticulous in everything, weighed each Charge, everyone got a good uniform Crimp.

Primers maybe? ( 'Wolf' brand...)


Anyway, so far, seems the S & W likes the 30 Grains BP with the 230 Grain 'SAECO'...and I did too.


Those are nice times with that.


I will try some more soon...

"777"


"UNIQUE"


Maybe some other propellents also.

[Oyeboten]

I am told that 8 Grains of Unique, in this application, with this Bullet, Seated in this way, allows too much Air in the case, and, would be expected to result in erratic Bullet speeds, which indeed I was getting.


I will try 8.5 Grains, and, Seating the Bullet in a normal attitude...see what that does.

[Oyeboten]

Well, making up some Loads now of 35 Grain 3F BP, 'Drop Tubed' into the Cartridge case, and, with a thin Lube Wafer, compressed well with a 262 Grain Flat Point, Round Nose, Lead Boolit I cast myself a few nights ago.


Also, will try some Kieth-ish 258 Grain Boolit, using 8 Grains of 'UNIQUE'...maybe head to the Range tamale or Monday.


I gather from various mentions, that my 230 Grain Bullet is too light for consistent performance/FPS with the BP or with "UNIQUE" as propellents.

So...on to trying a heavier Boolit now...