acuracy with PP

[herbert buckland]

I finly got my my Lee .308 mould and am PP with note paper then runing it through a ,314 Lee sizing die,this has polished the bore lick a miror and am geting the confety efect no leading ,boolits making clean holes,my problem is the group at 50 mts is around 6inches,jacketed boolits will group under a inch with the same 39gr s of AR 2208,am I doing somthing wrong or are I expecting too much,what is the best acuracy i can expect from PP

[303Guy]

There has to be something wrong there. I developed a load using my test tube that would confetti the patch withou leading the bore, then only did I take the rifle into the field and it shot pretty well. The gun has terrible open sights and with my less than junior eyes, I have great difficulty aiming the thing. That bore is seriously worm from cordite MkVII ammo but otherwise clean and shiny (it's tapered down toward the muzzle from that wear).

So, in trying to figure out what might be wrong with yur load, a few things come to mind - things I've found from my test tube. One thing is excessive case neck tension. That damages the patched boolit during seating - including bending the boolit, swelling the nose and pulling the patch forward not to mention causing runout. Another thing I have found is that if the nose is a little too large, the boolit base can be forced into the throat at an angle. That's not to say any of those things are happening in your case - just to say there are numerous conditions that can cause inaccuracy with PPCBoos.


... am I expecting too much,what is the best acuracy I can expect from PP? I am convinced that paper patching has the potential to exceed the accuracy of a j-word. Heck, I get 3 MOA (1½ inches at 50yds) with my seriously rust damaged pig gun (and I think it is capable of much better because I know I have been doing things wrong). Yours is gonna work! It has to! :!:

I'd really like to see pics of your castings and patched boolits.

[herbert buckland]

I have not got a camera or have i figered out how to post them,I will try thiner patches and see how that ges,at least I am not geting leading now,this has turned into a bit of a chaleng but I am sure i will win in the end

[pdawg_shooter]

Paper patched can and will equal the accuracy of jacketed loads in a given rifle, WHEN you get everything right. IMHE, it is a lot easier to do with paper than bare lead.

[docone31]

Herbert,
It sounds like you have the wrong mold.
If I sized my patches to .314, I would prefer the 303B mold rather than a .30.
If it is that large, the nose is also not fitting properly. Even witht the compressive effect of paper, and the stability of the patches, I prefer thicker lead for that size.
Paper does not do it all. Casting fit is also important.

[montana_charlie]

Doc,
If you and Herbert use the same paper, and run through the same sizing die, your finished bullet diameter will be the same.
You may like to start with a larger bullet than Herbert does, but that sizing die is the 'equalizer'.

The difference is his bullet will be less 'modified' than yours.

CM

[docone31]

On the one hand, yeah, on the other I don't know.
It sounds like he has a Mosin. When I tried my .30s patched up to .314 in my buddies Mosin, we got **** for groups. With the 303B mold, sized the same, we got on the paper.
I am thinking more paper thickness rather than lead compression.
Hmmmm.

[herbert buckland]

I am yousing a 303 Mk 111 range rifle that is extremly acurate with J boolits,I tryed the thiner paper,even though i had to run it through the .314 sizer to seat it did worse than the earler paper,started to blacken the bore(lead I presume) have made some up with stronger tracing paper but have not grouped them yet,but they cleaned the barell up again and were very close to clods of earth i was aiming at a couple or hundred yards away

[docone31]

Ah..... I see.
Get some lined notebook paper, Cut the patches 1" X 1 3/8" with 45* opposing on either end. I prefer a cigarette roller for the real tight wraps, and wrap them up. Size them to .314 after they dry.
I use auto wax to lube the wrapped castings. I leave a tail, and snip it leaving a little prior to sizeing.
Get yourself the 303B mold from Lee. That is the one I use and it is great. I size to .308, wrap it, size it to .314. Prior to sizeing, the wrap measures .317-.319. It sizes easily to .314.
If it fires jacketeds well, it will like those. Mine prefers .312 jacketed loads, and does the .314 all day long.
I will be sending 303Guy some photos of finished wraps so he can post them.
You try those, you will like it.

[montana_charlie]

I finly got my my Lee .308 mould and am PP with note paper then runing it through a ,314 Lee sizing die,

Get yourself the 303B mold from Lee. That is the one I use and it is great. I size to .308, wrap it, size it to .314..

Uhh...you are both wrapping .308" bullets and sizing to .314".
If Herbert has the Lee C-309-180-R mould, you are sending (essentially) identical packages down range...except that your paper might be different.

I don't understand the necessity for buying a larger mould...just to size it down to what Herbert already gets.

CM

[docone31]

Charlie, with all respect, the nose of the two are different. The 303B works better than the .30cal in the .303 British.
I have tried it all ways. I have wrapped the casting, then sized, I have sized the casting, then wrapped and fired, I have cast, wrapped, sized, and I have cast, sized, wrapped, then sized. Of the four, the last worked best.
In my thoughts, sizeing the casting, with wrapping it and then sizeing it gives it stability in the wrap. I only use the Push Thru sizers. They only size the lube lands down to .308.
That might also be a consideration.
Doing it that way, the .30cal, the nose stays at .301, the C185/311, the nose stays at .304. The extra thickness in the .303 gives it stability in the .303 Brit. That could be why the .30cal wobbles in the .303 bore.
I fought with that one for a while. Wrapping a plain unsized casting, did not give performance worth anything. When I went with the .303, sizeing to .308, with the wraps and final sizeing, it did real well.
I suspect, not sizeing the nose makes the difference.

[montana_charlie]

Okay..you guys do what works for you. You obviously need to meet some requirement that I am unaware of.
I'll stay out of your kitchen...

CM

[docone31]

Charlie,
You and the other grown ups are what we ascribe to. I learned what I do from you guys!
Personally, I really like the two seperate threads. I have experience with smokeless, none with the grown up rifles. I write in the smokeless side, read in the grown up side.
I am glad you have that thread there. I enjoy reading what you guys do. It is great!
Someday, I want to get a Rolly Block. Purty furniture, heavy octagonal barrel. Semi gloss finish.
Someday.....
I been looking at
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?cPath=350_368_369&products_id=8790&osCsid=9e08fd124b7f12364eefcc5b0d658e60
These folks.
Good place to start. Perhaps .318 smokeless.
Someday.
Charlie, you know something?
I learned to patch from watching you! I got the idea of a cigarette roller from your patches.
I saw your molds, so I got a Lee and sized it. I made a board like you have, and then I used a cigarette roller after I tried. Rather than mixing in egg whites, milk, or what-not, I lay em in soaking, then the roller squeegees the water out.
You and a couple of other guys have made it possible for me!
Hats off.

[herbert buckland]

I tryed the tougher paper it inproved things but still not good enough,look lick i will get another mould ,I know I am close but just not there yet,I have PP black for years expecting smokless would be the same ,it is not

[montana_charlie]

I have experience with smokeless, none with the grown up rifles.
I read a post of yours (in a thread about Sharps rifles) where you said you once owned a Sharps, but it didn't fit you. I wonder if it had a straight-gripped military butt...like mine does.

I am long-armed and lanky (like you) and have always felt somewhat less than 'in full control' when shooting this rifle. I shoot better when I relax, but being relaxed...I get whacked by the steel buttplate and can't seem to maintain correct 'follow through'.

I might describe the condition as 'it doesn't fit me'.

I think I have my cure, and wonder if it might have solved your problem, too.
It's in the BP PP forum, in 'my' thread...

CM