cast 45 ACP woe...

[twocool4u]

I have one of Mihec's .452-200 molds and have cast a few hundred solids with it. Mihec's molds are works of art. I loaded some of them for my early 90's Colt Officers Model, using Colt mags I bought at the same time I bought the gun.

When I loaded the first few rounds and was checking the fit I loaded them long with about 1/16 of an inch of the drive band showing. When they are loaded from the mag they hit the bevel on the bottom of the barrel and put a flat spot on edge of the flat point of the boolit.

Then I read on this forum that for auto-loaders you should only have "a fingernail's width of the top band showing", so I have loaded some to those specs and they are still hitting and flatspotting. After shooting 6 rounds there was a lead smear on the barrel where the boolits where hitting it before feeding on into the barrel.

Can someone help me with this?

Thanks in advance.

[HeavyMetal]

I don't think this is a cartridge OAL issue, although without pictures it's hard to tell.

My first thoughts are to soft an alloy and or the ramp is off in some way.

Having said that my greatest fear is you crank out a dremel tool and start "polishing" your feed ramp!

What I'm going to suggest is pull the barrel out of your 1911 and use it as a test guage for cartridge OAL. In use you simply turn the barrel chamber end up and drop a round in it.

If the rim is below the barrel hood seat the boolit out ( longer length) if it above the barrel hood make the round shorter.

What your looking for is a flush "fit" between the base of the case and the barrel hood.

Once you have this down load a few "dummy" rounds ( fired primer no powder) with three or four of these loaded in the mag run them through the action slowly and see where they are catching. It is very possible the ramp area is rough and just needs polishing but you will need to do this to figure it out.

[twocool4u]

There is no danger I will dremel it, I would only let someone who knows what they are doing work on it.

I have removed the barrel to use as a gauge, an empty cartridge sets just the least bit proud, less than .01 inch. With no boolit, the boolit seated long, or the boolit seated short, the case sets in the same place, it is not the boolit hitting the throat.

The alloy is soft, but I do not have a hardness tester, so I do not know how soft.
It is those medical radiation cups water dropped.

I will load up some more and try to post some pictures, I have never posted pics before.

[9.3X62AL]

Some of the Colt Officer's Models in 45 ACP were CANTANKEROUS feeders. Cal-DOJ/BNE's agents were issued a number of these during the time I worked with them (1990-92), and many of the examples wouldn't feed reliably--even with FMJ ball. The prevailing theory at the time was a feeding geometry issue, and after Glocks were adopted the Colt OM questions were dropped--with the pistols, it would seem.

[35remington]

Where on the barrel was the bullet nose striking? On the top of the barrel ramp or the bottom?

What is the overall length of the round?

Additional problems with the short format 1911's arise because of the poor timing of the piece. Short 1911's are more likely to malfunction due to the way their dimensions affect feed timing.

The issue with short 1911's is often time and space, and how that affects reliable feeding.

Shorty 1911's are often bitchy, temperamental prima donnas that, just when you think you've got them working, will puke on you just when you need them most.

[twocool4u]

Picture 1 shows the short oal (1.192), the long oal (1.218) cartridges with the flat spot where they strike, and the feed lips of one of my mags.

Picture 2 shows the lead on the ramp and the bottom of the barrel.

Picture 3 shows the short and long cartridges with the flat spot on the edge again.

[Edubya]

Do you have any other style of magazine? It may be that your boolit is being fed at too steep of an angle or the timing is just wrong for cast.

EW

[cptinjeff]

Well....

I'm thinking two ways to go. Lots of work to actually get the gun to feed correctly or just using a harder alloy. Do you have any other alloy to try? I had a similar problem with a glock 21 and a aftermarket bbl. I went with a harder alloy (bhn approx 15) and it "cured/masked" the problem.

[HeavyMetal]

Your alloy is to soft!

What's happening here is two things 1st the nose is rubbing on the feed ramp portion of the frame causing the lead smear and 2nd the "leading edge" to the chamber is actually cutting the bolit as it pass's over it and slides into the chamber.

A harder alloy will cure both problems. Once you do that I think your issue will be gone. Next up is to shoot enough of these to make sure it is reliable.

If it pass's that test no futher action need be taken as in a ramp job.

The medical containers your using are pure lead and very soft. Beg or borrow some clip on ww's and mix them 70% clip on to 30% med container then water drop and you should be good to go!

[35remington]

Take a look at the round with the bullet shortened in the case from feeding.

Take another look.

See the "smiley face" in the brass just below the case mouth? Big, big clue to what's going on! This is symptomatic of a three point jam, or a bolt over base misfeed.

If it is a very hard jam, that does not respond to a nudge to the rear of the slide to go into battery, it is a bolt over base misfeed or an extremely hard three point. In this instance a bolt over base misfeed resembles a three point jam except that the case rim never finds its way onto the breechface.

This is most common in shorty 1911's because the slide does not go very far behind the magwell, allowing less time for the round to be fed up from the magazine. The returning slide hits the case in the extractor groove cut rather than on the back of the rim, and the round cannot slide up the breechface. It wedges in the gun with the slide mostly open, and the round is at an angle between the barrel ramp and is below the bottom of the breechface. The round's rim has not climbed onto the breechface at all. That's a bolt over base. Most common on the last shot or two in the magazine.

This occurs when the magazine springs are even slightly weakened because the shorties don't have much leeway for reliable function.

Should this be a three point jam, one possible problem is that this particular cartridge's needed breakover into the chamber and extractor pickup are not timed correctly with the magazine's release point. The case rim is on the breechface but was not released in time to slide under the extractor at the proper pickup point. This looks very much like a bolt over base misfeed but the case rim is on the bottom of the breechface, but not on the extractor. This isn't necessarily a magazine issue so much as it is a magazine and ammo compatibility issue. Not all magazines will feed all ammo, from the shortest to the longest.

If a three point jam, try a magazine with earlier release timing.

If it's a bolt over base misfeed, even formerly reliable rounds will start to misfunction. Try your other known reliable bullet shapes......if they still feed, the three point jam is the cause of the problem.

If the rounds feel "kachunky" from first shot to last, and then it's something to do with release timing.

Also, how tightly are the bullets held in the case? Does the bullet have a good long bearing surface for good case friction fit?

If bullets are telescoping into the case for whatever reason on feeding, you'll get the dreaded three point as well. A soft grabby lead alloy that dissipate's the slide's energy and a setback prone bullet are a bad combo.

[KYCaster]

Maybe I'm missing something here, please forgive me if I am....You didn't say anything about failure to feed or malfunction, just the flat spot on the boolit and the lead smear on the feed ramp.

If that's the extent of the problem then it's a non-issue.

Unless the deformation of the boolit causes inaccuracy or the lead on the feed ramp builds up to the point that it causes FTF's then I wouldn't worry about it. I'd shoot a couple hundred of them and if no other problem shows up, call it good and don't look back.

Jerry

[35remington]

Y'know, KY's right, you never said anything about HOW they jammed or even IF. I deduced a few things from the comments and took it from there.

Probably not the only thing I got wrong.

The groove next to the case mouth sure looks suspiciously like that of a three point, though.

When fed, do the rounds get pushed deeper in the case or do they hold pretty fast? If they don't shorten much feeding isn't that impaired, most likely.

Anything else you can tell us? Have you actually shot a lot of these through the gun?

[gray wolf]

Contact on the feed ramp looks pretty normal, perhaps could be a little more in the middle.
the contact on the barrel throat looks a little late. That is-- I would like to see it a little more
in the middle of the beveled area on the bottom of the barrel.
I think if the bullets are seated out a little more the contact area on the bullet would move
aft a little and away from the junction of the meplat. Take the barrel out and see how long you can seat that bullet. Put some Sharpe marker on the bullet and watch the contact area
on the bullet change. I seat that bullet to 1.190 / 1.195 and that is flush with the back of the barrel hood. For get the part about a finger nail or a 1/16 of an in.
Take the barrel out and seat a bullet in a DUMMY round. Make sure you remove the flare at the case mouth. Do this until you have the OAL that just brings the back of the case even with the back of the barrel hood. That is the correct OAL for that bullet.
I would do nothing to the barrel or feed ramp at this time. A little polish on your finger tip
or a soft cloth around your finger and bring it to a high shine. This would not change the geometry. You can also take the slide off and check with the barrel only in the slide, put the slide release lever in place to hold it . There needs to be the proper amount of frame showing at bottom of the barrel. ( perhaps someone can explain this part better than I )
One measurement pulling the barrel forward and the correct amount of frame showing with the barrel pushed to the rear.
BUT--as been said if your pistol shoots and does not jam, or give you set back on the bullet ( bullet jammed into case ) shoot and enjoy.
But I still think you can move that bullet a little and get it off the meplat junction.
My pistol was shot today with SWC, RN, and the same bullet you have got.
Here is a pic of what I get. the different bullets hit the feed ramp in a different place but in the middle of the barrel throat. Hope it helped.
WOW is that gun dirty or what ?

Sam

[twocool4u]

9.3X62AL
Some of the Colt Officer's Models in 45 ACP were CANTANKEROUS feeders. Cal-DOJ/BNE's agents were issued a number of these during the time I worked with them (1990-92), and many of the examples wouldn't feed reliably--even with FMJ ball. The prevailing theory at the time was a feeding geometry issue, and after Glocks were adopted the Colt OM questions were dropped--with the pistols, it would seem

My gun feeds everything I give it with 100% reliability.

About a month after I purchased it I bought 3 new mags. While target shooting it jammed for the first time. I shot all the mags empty and reloaded them. It jammed again, I had numbered the mags so I noted the number of the mag in the gun and proceeded to empty the rest of the mags without a jam. I reloaded the suspect mag and it jammed the gun again. I mailed it back to Colt with a note telling them what the problem was and about 3 weeks later I received a brand new mag in the mail. The gun has NEVER jammed again.

To date I have shot Black Talon, Winchester Silver Tip, Federal Hydro-Shock, Golden Sabre, MiHec's cast boolits, and at least 3 types of FMJ.


35remington

Additional problems with the short format 1911's arise because of the poor timing of the piece. Short 1911's are more likely to malfunction due to the way their dimensions affect feed timing. The issue with short 1911's is often time and space, and how that affects reliable feeding. Shorty 1911's are often bitchy, temperamental prima donnas that, just when you think you've got them working, will puke on you just when you need them most.

I was asking for help, not for someone to tell me my 100% reliable Colt was a ***. If you have had trouble with them in the past maybe you should practice more...or maybe stop buying generic mags...


Edubya Do you have any other style of magazine? It may be that your boolit is being fed at too steep of an angle or the timing is just wrong for cast.
EW

No, all my mags are original Colt bought within 6 months of the gun purchase.


cptinjeff Well....

I'm thinking two ways to go. Lots of work to actually get the gun to feed correctly or just using a harder alloy. Do you have any other alloy to try? I had a similar problem with a glock 21 and a aftermarket bbl. I went with a harder alloy (bhn approx 15) and it "cured/masked" the problem.

I have some WW, but I was wanting to load Mihec's hollow-points cast soft...


35remington Take a look at the round with the bullet shortened in the case from feeding.

It was loaded that length, they have not shortened (I have checked the rounds in the mag while shooting) or failed to feed.


KYCaster Maybe I'm missing something here, please forgive me if I am....You didn't say anything about failure to feed or malfunction, just the flat spot on the boolit and the lead smear on the feed ramp.

If that's the extent of the problem then it's a non-issue.

Unless the deformation of the boolit causes inaccuracy or the lead on the feed ramp builds up to the point that it causes FTF's then I wouldn't worry about it. I'd shoot a couple hundred of them and if no other problem shows up, call it good and don't look back.

Jerry

That is what I figured at the start, that it is just something I will have to live with.
But, I thought I would post here and see if there was something I was missing. If the HP's feed without getting deformed to much (or maybe not at all with a harder alloy) I will be happy.

Thanks all the same.

[twocool4u]

gray wolf
BUT--as been said if your pistol shoots and does not jam, or give you set back on the bullet ( bullet jammed into case ) shoot and enjoy.
But I still think you can move that bullet a little and get it off the meplat junction.

The long OAL is about the max before I hit the rifling. I am going to load about 100 short and shoot them, clean the gun, load about 100 long, shoot them and compare.

[gray wolf]

does my post not count ?

[twocool4u]

gray wolf
does my post not count ?

:D

Of course it does.

Thank you also.

All help is appreciated, my mother did not raise me to be unappreciative. As a matter of fact, I find ingratitude to be despicable.

Have a good evening.

[35remington]

You'll have to excuse us, but problems with shorty 1911's are common, and we were angling to help. Reliability with the short ones is harder to obtain, and that's the clear facts about 1911's. Thus the assumptions I made. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

You want the round to glide across the top of the top of the barrel ramp. Hitting lower is undesirable. The high glide is just exactly right and promotes reliability. It keeps the barrel in the frame bed as the round feeds. A low strike causes the three point jam I talked about if carried too low, so high is right. The barrel ramp is a clearance, not a feedway, and the bullet nose should really not touch it except on the top edge near the chamber.

You just reaffirmed the desirability of whatever magazine you're using with a short 1911, which is a sort of endorsement I suppose because sub par magazines fall on their face with this short design more so than in the full size ones.

If there is not significant length shortening when shooting your rounds, and you observe that the smoothness of feeding is there (tactile matters too) then you're right, and whatever you're doing is more successful than you (or we) thought it was. That happens when I jump to conclusions based on assumptions.

I suspect you'll have more info after doing your comparative OAL check. Some difference in feeding smoothness may be noticeable. As the magazine empties, the feedramp strikes may climb the frame ramp somewhat. Check to ensure the barrel ramp strikes stay relatively high as that's critical.

[softpoint]

Some of the Colt Officer's Models in 45 ACP were CANTANKEROUS feeders. Cal-DOJ/BNE's agents were issued a number of these during the time I worked with them (1990-92), and many of the examples wouldn't feed reliably--even with FMJ ball. The prevailing theory at the time was a feeding geometry issue, and after Glocks were adopted the Colt OM questions were dropped--with the pistols, it would seem.

Over the years, I've owned my fair share of 1911's,and my experience mirrors that. I never had an officer's size that was reliable enough that I trusted it for a carry gun. I've had Colts, Para P12's, and it always seemed like reliability started with the commander size. I'm sure there are folks that have 100% reliable officers models, just hasn't been the case for me. They have a shorter stroke, stiffer springs to compensate for a lighter slide, and even if they have been polished, they can still be very picky about what they feed.:coffee:

[twocool4u]

You want the round to glide across the top of the top of the barrel ramp. Hitting lower is undesirable. The high glide is just exactly right and promotes reliability. It keeps the barrel in the frame bed as the round feeds. A low strike causes the three point jam I talked about if carried too low, so high is right. The barrel ramp is a clearance, not a feedway, and the bullet nose should really not touch it except on the top edge near the chamber.

That is the kind of information that makes me like this site.


You just reaffirmed the desirability of whatever magazine you're using with a short 1911, which is a sort of endorsement I suppose because sub par magazines fall on their face with this short design more so than in the full size ones.

I just use factory Colt mags purchased within a few months of the gun. I would not consider them anything special other than they are what the factory chose to sell.


If there is not significant length shortening when shooting your rounds, and you observe that the smoothness of feeding is there (tactile matters too) then you're right

The cast are definitely more clunky during feeding than FMJ's.



Over the years, I've owned my fair share of 1911's,and my experience mirrors that. I never had an officer's size that was reliable enough that I trusted it for a carry gun. I've had Colts, Para P12's, and it always seemed like reliability started with the commander size. I'm sure there are folks that have 100% reliable officers models, just hasn't been the case for me. They have a shorter stroke, stiffer springs to compensate for a lighter slide, and even if they have been polished, they can still be very picky about what they feed.

All that has been done to mine is trigger job (2 3/4 lb.), extended slide release, new sights, a rod buffer, nickel plating and elephant tusk ivory grips. It has not been polished, had the ejection port or the ejector modified from it's original design. Since it is the only one I have ever had or shot I can not comment on all the shorties out in the world, but my gun after getting the bad mag replaced has been flawless. I remembered I have also feed it Gold Dots so they need to be added to the list.

I do have a question for you though, what other .45 is as concealable and has as good a trigger? The full size 1911 is not really concealable in my opinion and I am not aware of any double action auto that has a trigger that is remotely comparable.

[BD]

An interesting exercise before starting into problem solving on any 1911 is to assemble the gun without the recoil spring and load a mag full of dummies. This allows you to feed the entire mag through slowly, pushing the slide into battery with your thumb. Any hitch in the feed cycle becomes immediately apparent, and you will be able to see exactly what is happening. I do this with any new boolit design, (and I've been through a bunch on them), to determine the best OAL for that boolit.

If you do this side by side with a 3" gun and a 5" gun, the timing differences also becomes apparent.

I own a 3" series 1 Kimber which has been completely reliable from the time I took it out of the box and gave it a one hour fluff and buff. It ran flawlessly through a snubby match one day despite a broken ejector caused by me slamming an 8 round full size mag in by mistake.

I carried that pistol for a few years before buying a 4" 1911 which I bobtailed. I find the 4" bobtail to be even more concealable as the extra inch of barrel keeps it tighter to my side and the rounded heel doesn't pick up my shirt as much.

Toocool, you mentioned a "rod buffer"? If you mean one of the polymer buffers added to the face of the guide rod, that may be your problem. The 3" gun is absolutely at the minimum slide travel necessary for funtion. Giving up even an eighth of an inch to a buffer is really pushing it. I believe that's why Kimber went to the "spring within a spring" recoil design on thier 3" guns and slimmed the face of the guide rod down to a sixteenth.

BD

[softpoint]

I do have a question for you though, what other .45 is as concealable and has as good a trigger? The full size 1911 is not really concealable in my opinion and I am not aware of any double action auto that has a trigger that is remotely comparable.

If you have a 1911 shortie that is reliable, it is as nice a carry pistol as as you could have,IMO, and like I was saying, I'm sure there are some out there, I just haven't been lucky enough to have one that I could get all the bugs out of!
I mostly carry a full size 1911, I have a Commander I like, but the full size one has better sights. The choice of a good holster has much to do with concealability and comfort. And, here in this part of Texas, anyway, you aren't likely to get arrested if your gun "prints" a little, as long as you keep it covered up. Other places may be different.
And a really good "glass rod" trigger is not really much of an asset in a carry pistol. I like my Glock model 20, 10mm, the only reason I don't carry it a lot is because it is so darn wide. Looking down the slide at the front sight is sorta like lookind down the hood of my Chevy truck! It is reliable, plenty accurate, high capacity though.:drinks:

[Char-Gar]

toocool.... I have taken a long hard look at the photos you posted. It looks to me like the loaded rounds have zero crimp. I would not think about working on the pistol until I put a good taper crimp on the loads and try it again. Those bullet look like they should work in just about any decent 1911 pistol.