Myth on black powder

[Fly]

I started making my own BP.But before doing so I did ALOT of research before
my first a temp.[smilie=6:I now have some that performs better than Swiss in power &
I will do another post showing my results.

There are many myths surrounding BP and making it, not all of them true of course. So let's try to find out what's what.
BP as we know is only sensitive to heat, as temp rises over 300c it ignites. It doesn't go off by static electricity, by shock etc.:groner:

Let's take static electricity first...
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_exp ... parks.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Z5yAeO3dw

Those examples are far from simple static charge you come in contact with daily, getting hit by one of those in previous links will make you pee in your pants :( BUT BP still didn't ignite. There is no difference is BP bad conductor or good one (commercial graphite coated) static won't ignite it. It doesn't carry any amps so it's incapable of heating it.

Sensitivity to shock - i will come back here later...

Fly

[Fly]

Sorry try this http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[hoosierlogger]

If an electric shock wont ignite black powder then how does this work? Not trying to be a smart ****, just wondering. http://www.cva.com/rifles-electra.php

[Fly]

hoosierlogger Thats the first I have heard of that gun.But reading there add you use
there white hot pellets inconjuntion with the bullet.So I would think they have something
in the pellet to ignite the powder.

Maybe the pellet is the powder.I don't know but that is interesting.TC also has a black powder pellet & that would be a great market tool for CVA also.But surly someone
reading the board know for sure.

[FL-Flinter]

If an electric shock wont ignite black powder then how does this work? Not trying to be a smart ****, just wondering. http://www.cva.com/rifles-electra.php

It works because the arc corona (electrical corona, not the Mexican liquid type) is drawn between two metal electrodes within a given proximity to each other. I haven't taken one of them apart yet to do any reverse engineering but I suspect that the arc distance and amperage is such that the arc heats the surrounding air to well above the ignition temperature required to ignite the powder. I did look at the articles written on those things and honestly, I ain't impressed by any means. One of the pic's in a gun rag showed the circuit board, it's made by a company that makes toys as per the mfg name on it. That's enough right there to turn me off and even though (or because of) I did avionics, industrial controls and so forth, I'm not up for having anything electronic on my guns. I have two trucks I can absolutely rely upon, 1980 GMC and 1985 Chevy, both 100% mechanical diesel and not a single electronic control on them other than the alternator and starter. :bigsmyl2:

[northmn]

Put a little simpler they use a spark plug, whcih is fire. Fl-Flinter reminds me of a Ford mechanic I knew that specialized in electronic repair. For his brush truck he fixed up an old pickup that did not have any of the stuff he worked on as he did not think he could take a computer back in the brush with him. Look at how easy BP is to ignite for a flintlock. The phoney stuff does not work in flinters.

Northmn

[Fly]

FL-Flinter your right on about it generating http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ml/electricml.html heat if it works as this one.

[Multigunner]

Well remember that Lightning is also static electrity and it can set a wet tree on fire.

I do believe that BP is at least difficult to ignite by the sort of static electrity you've been speaking of, but I'd take no chances on it.

A piezo electric spark can set off high explosives, like an RPG warhead, but I think these require an igniter cap of some sort.

PS
I just remembered a scene in a film.
Three guys are walking along a subway track, one says to be careful of the third rail because of the voltage. The other says voltage doesn't kill you its the amps. Another says , well how many amps does it arry. The answer is enough to push a train.

[cajun shooter]

There are test that show an electrical wire throwing a spark at a line of BP with no results. I have found people who profess to know about BP that are still putting out false information about BP so that they can promote the sales of the wanna be powders. It's terrible and very hard to stop a rolling boulder.

[StarMetal]

When flint strikes isn't the spark you see a hot ember either of a piece of the flint or the iron? It's different then a static spark. Just like those survival magnesium emergency fire starters you strike with the blade of your knife..it's a hot magnesium ember coming off as the spark.

[Fly]

Well as been said above it,s the heat of the spark that sets it of.Static spark from your body
just doe's not have enough heat to set it off.Remember it is sold in steel cans.

So what it comes down to is keep it away from hot sparks, flame or excess heat & you
will be fine.We should all respect it, & at the same time use our heads when we are
dealing with it.

But the same can be said for smokeless powder all so.

Fly

[StarMetal]

Before anyone discounts that static can set off BP let me relate to you an incident at a chemical plant I worked at. The product we made was powdered insoluble sulfur. It was bagged in 50 pound paper bags and before they installed the new automatic bagger machine the bag was filled by hand from a spout with a lever valve and then sewn shut. One guy, whose body conducted a lot of static electricity, had a problem. When he bagged in the winter the static shock from him nearly always ignited the powdered sulfur dust. In fact they made a ground for old Willy and he would connect it to himself by means of an alligator clip and the other end was grounded to the earth. I had seen lots of fires started there due to static of the material just flowing, especially in the dust collector vents.

[GabbyM]

Was looking at an online virtual tour of USS Constitution a couple years ago. Can't find it now.
They showed the powder magazine all lined with copper IIRC and static discharge hand rails for the powder monkeys. IIRC they mentioned shoes with no nails.

[shunka]

Before anyone discounts that static can set off BP let me relate to you an incident at a chemical plant I worked at. The product we made was powdered insoluble sulfur. It was bagged in 50 pound paper bags and before they installed the new automatic bagger machine the bag was filled by hand from a spout with a lever valve and then sewn shut. One guy, whose body conducted a lot of static electricity, had a problem. When he bagged in the winter the static shock from him nearly always ignited the powdered sulfur dust. In fact they made a ground for old Willy and he would connect it to himself by means of an alligator clip and the other end was grounded to the earth. I had seen lots of fires started there due to static of the material just flowing, especially in the dust collector vents.

With all due respect:

PLease do not compare apples and oranges and claim "it's a fact"

this example has nothing to do with BP, what is happening is the well-known phenomenon of "dust explosion" - certain extremely fine airborn dusts such as sulfur and even wheat (flour) will ignite/explode from a static spark.

Completed, Granular BP will not do this.

Static sparks during the manufacture of BP can cause explosions because of the very fine dust in the air; dust explosions are not inherent to just BP manufacture as such.

As stated before the "spark" from a flintlock that sets off the powder, is not the same as a static spark - it is the "white hot burning steel" scraped off the frizzen and ignited by the flint.

As previously stated the "electric ignition" systems are setting off the BP because of the very high heat produced by this specialized arc system. This could be hotter than a normal spark plug, because granular BP requires more heat to set it off than vaporized gasoline. and lp or natural gas *can* be ignited by a spark because of the far lower "heat of ignition".

To put it in perspective, it's like claiming a common static arc is the same as a welding arc. Technically In a way, yeah, but just not in the power class.

not trying to start an argument , just stating facts.

yhs
shunka

[cajun shooter]

Here in Louisiana we have had more than one grain elevator blown up because of static electricity. That is why they do the mixing and corning of BP in a wet form so that the dust will not explode.

[StarMetal]

With all due respect:

PLease do not compare apples and oranges and claim "it's a fact"

this example has nothing to do with BP, what is happening is the well-known phenomenon of "dust explosion" - certain extremely fine airborn dusts such as sulfur and even wheat (flour) will ignite/explode from a static spark.

Completed, Granular BP will not do this.

Static sparks during the manufacture of BP can cause explosions because of the very fine dust in the air; dust explosions are not inherent to just BP manufacture as such.

As stated before the "spark" from a flintlock that sets off the powder, is not the same as a static spark - it is the "white hot burning steel" scraped off the frizzen and ignited by the flint.

As previously stated the "electric ignition" systems are setting off the BP because of the very high heat produced by this specialized arc system. This could be hotter than a normal spark plug, because granular BP requires more heat to set it off than vaporized gasoline. and lp or natural gas *can* be ignited by a spark because of the far lower "heat of ignition".

To put it in perspective, it's like claiming a common static arc is the same as a welding arc. Technically In a way, yeah, but just not in the power class.

not trying to start an argument , just stating facts.

yhs
shunka

Well put, but where there is BP there is BP dust or at least fine very fine grains.

[giz189]

I have 3rd degree burns on about 50% of my body that says static electricity will set off black powder. However, I still use black, as I do not like the way the copycats perform.

[spqrzilla]

I find that the claim that such are "myths" being made in this manner is most misleading.

Some video experiments do not debunk the concept of static electricity being a potential ignition source by any means.

Get some perspective here. Black powder has certain well-known properties. Handling it such as to minimize those dangers is common sense.

[Fly]

My question to those that don't agree is if your so sure of your comments, then WHY IN
THE HE!! are you shooting and handling BLACK POWDER?Geeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz.Why I bother to post here I wonder at times.

[John Boy]

... before doing so I did ALOT of research ... I now have some that performs better than Swiss
Fly, would be interested in some of the details about your powder compared to Swiss:
* Average velocity with equal powder charges
* Density weight of 100 volume grains
* What wood did you use for your charcoal?
* If you made your own charcoal, what temperature did you maintain in the retort?
* How long did you run your batch of powder in the polishing drum?
* Did you do any testing to determine the water content of your polished powder?
Don't know which Swiss granulation when you reference 'better than Swiss', so what are the sieve pass -hold percentages for a given batch of your powder?

Thanks Kindly providing the information

[John Taylor]

Tried making some BP many years ago, ended up setting the hills on fire. Did find out that store bought charcoal is not the right stuff. The charcoal needs to be made from soft wood, not hard wood.
Have seen sawmills burn from sawdust in the air that was ignited somehow, spark?

[mooman76]

Places that accumulate sawdust or coaldust and some others I suppose, if it builds up too much can ignite from I believe the term is spontainious combustion. Heat will build up deep within the pile. As most know when they were a kid and used to pile up leaves to play or jump in, if you dug down into the pile it would be very warm.

[FL-Flinter]

First off there's a big difference between a dust explosion/fire and a solid combustible. Just about any dust will flash/explode/burn and if one wants to get down to brass tacks, the flour you use for biscuts is probably more of a risk for a dust explosion than quality factory produced commercial black powder. That does NOT mean commercial black powder is immuned to dust explosions that can very well be ignited by static discharge. There is a clear distinction between solids and dust just as there is a clear distinction between individual components and the "mixture".

Safety is always first and foremost but the point of doing the static discharge test as linked to by the OP was to dispell the myths that BP is extremely sensitive to ESD (electrostatic discharge). Any powder can be at risk for ignition via ESD including smokeless powders - factors such as chemical or mechanical degradation can have greatly varying effects on how sensitive the powder can become to ignition via ESD or even mechanical or thermal shock.

Thus, dispell the mythical fears but maintain a healthy respect and always put safety first!

[Fly]

John Boy I used black willow.The main thing in making it is don't over cook it.Charcoal is
the most important ingredient.I took 1 " debarked branches & cut them to fit my tin bucket.
I put [2] 3/8" holes in the lid.

I got a good fire going in my offset smoker fire box & let the fire all most burn out to just coals.
I then put the can of willow on.You will see steam coming out the hole in the lid for a while.Then the
gas will start to burn replacing the steam.

When the gas stops burning, "check it with a burning stick over the holes" pull it out at
that time.Let it cool but don't remove the lid.Some say to cover the holes but I did not.

Go to Habor frieght & buy a rock tumbler about $30 bucks.Put your coal in a heavy plastic
bag & beat the coal fairly fine.Get some potassium nitrate "salt peter".Most stump remover
is 98% pure.

Also some sulfur.I use a good gram scale.75% PN 15% charcoal 10%Sulfur + 5% dextrin.The rock tumbler
from Harbor freight has a neat rubber drum.I use about 10, 50cal lead balls to grind with.

I run it for about six hours.You can make your own dextrin buy putting corn starch in the
oven at 400 degrees till it just turns light brown,no more.It's just a binder.

After coming out of the tumber sift it with a 20 mesh sifter or AL screen will work also
in a plastic container.The large lumps can be rubbed threw the screen.

Now take a spray bottle of water & spray it while you work the water in.I like to add
about 25% alcohol to the water for it helps the coal to take on the water.Get it to about
like brown sugar till it packs some.Then push it threw the screen on to news paper
& let it dry.I would let it dry two days

Now you have 3F black powder.We made a mortor out of a pipe.We used 10 grains to
shoot a base ball in the sky & timed it with a stop watch from firing till it came down &
hit the ground.

My powder beat the Gorx & Swiss .I don't have the times in front of me now but I will
post them.
Hope you enjoyed this read!
Fly
PS I have about $6 in a LB of home made.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Oyeboten]

Thank you Fly for sharing this.


This sure sounds like fun, straight-forward enough to not be a hassle, and, like it would be a very satisfying endevor to do.


Where would one get Black Willow Twigs or other?

[Fly]

Oyeboten I don't think you will find any in Las Vegas but white pine works very well also.
White pine lumber from the a lumber yard.Just don't get treated.If you get say 2 by 4
just cut it in 1 by 1 strips for that makes very good coal also.

Balsa works very well but pretty pricey.
Good luck & report back
Fly
PS I ordered 10 lb of Potassium Nitrate
Pellets from DubaDieal $22 that beats
$5.50 lb for stump remover.How's $2.50lb
BP sound.But if you a scared of static
electric keep paying $22 for pyrodex.

[Geraldo]

Don't take this the wrong way, but your baseball test isn't really useful. How about some chrono data: same rifle using your powder and whatever comparison/control powders you like, say 10 round average for each. That would give you a fair enough sample to compare.

I'd also like to see how consistent it is from one batch to the next in terms of velocity.

[northmn]

When you say it is better than Swiss in what way? Have you done a chronograph comparison. The point made about granulation is also valid. Also, when we talk of a flintlock setting of BP, remember that 4f is the most common priming powder. Depending upon the lock 4f also tend to ignite a little easier. When I had a Brown Bess repo it would ignite 2f, but I ahve found 4f to work better in my finer rifle locks. A good spark from a good frizzen will glow a short bit when it hits an empty pan. I have also had a couple of detonations of the main charge from a flintlock without priming powder in the pan (the first time the gun was held flat such that the sparks could easily bounce into the touch hole, I was checking a freshly knapped flint and don't do that any more)

Northmn

[Fly]

Who said anything about making 4f?The powders tested were 3f.I use 3F in my cap & ball
my flintlock & my precussion.I save some of the ground powder for my 4f pan on my flitlock.

That's why I use dextrin so as a binder when I wet it & push it threw a 16 mesh screen.If you
read my post above it's all there.As far as the test goes, high testing has been used for years
to test propellants by the millitary.

Fellows I only took my time to post this to help some.Not to have shots taken at my effort.
I spent many,many hours of research and testing to come up with this tutorial.

This thread has gone from dust explosion to short of call me a fool.I was going to do
another on corning your powder & the tooling needed.

But sorry I don't need this in my life.I hope I have helped some, to the rest, do as
you see fit & be safe at all cost.
Fly

[StarMetal]

Fly,

You won't get that treatment from me. I thank you for your report and it's the best I've read to date.

That's the way many on this forum have gotten. If they can't do it can't be done attitude. It's very hard to try teach someone anything here because of the attitude you just encounter. Most don't really want to be taught anything. Myself and others have encountered this in other areas.

Don't give up and let them bother you. Keep up with your work. There are those out there that want to learn. You'll get the negative people, but pay them no mind.

[Geraldo]

I don't see how asking for data is taking a shot at you. Real numbers tell the story, and if you're make powder that equals commercial and is consistent from lot to lot you've really got something.

[2muchstuf]

Ditto what StarMetal said.

Thanks for your post and the effort that you put into your research.
I truly enjoyed it and am looking forward to more of it.

2

[giz189]

My question to those that don't agree is if your so sure of your comments, then WHY IN
THE HE!! are you shooting and handling BLACK POWDER?Geeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz.Why I bother to post here I wonder at times. Hey Fly, I'm not knocking you or making your own BP. I would make my own, but SWMBO said if I did, she would kill me. My accident was entirely my fault. Besides, I have had automobile accidents, but I still drive a car. Until something better comes along, I will use what works best. I Just will be a little more careful with it.

[John Taylor]

Fly, Thanks for the post, I hope I didn't say anything to offend you. We need a few more people that are willing to take the time to do the trial and error thing. I gave up after my experience. It was quite a time stomping out the grass fire I started. My problem was using a 2" bore cannon with 1000 grains of powder that was a little slow burning, spread the fire up the hill for at least 100 yards.

[DIRT Farmer]

Intersting post, thanks. As for the test, Thunder mugs, ratchet pots and the old gunnery sgt. firing for range were the way powder was tested. Lots vary, along with the other variables. Firing for range after proper gun set up was the only aceptable test. Many target shooters sift their powder and use the fines for pratice priming.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

Fly-

First off let me say thanks for the informative thread.

I have question concerning your charcoal making. I noticed that you mentioned steam rising from the crucible before the woodgas. Did you use green willow or dry willow for making your charcoal? I am intrigued with this whole process so forgive me for asking about the minute details.

Regards,
Everett

[John Boy]

Fly, thanks for the process overview.
When you are using the willow, keep a thermomenter in the retort (can) so the temperature does not exceed 608 F. Otherwise, the cresote will flash off and charcoal being the 'engine' for gunpowder will produce poor ignition pressures resulting in lower velocities.

If you get a chance, still would be interested in your velocities and the densities compared to Swiss.
Swiss powder, 100gr volume then scale weighed is heavier than the testing procedures used with 100gr volume of water, the factor be '1'. Here are several of the Swiss density measurements:
104.4 Swiss 1.5 ... ie., 4.4% heavier than 100 cc of water
104.9 Swiss FFg
102.3 Swiss FFFg

Also of importance, the best moisture content for finished powder after polishing is 1.5% water. The was proven by Noble and Able''s experiments in the middle 1800's and is the percentage that Swiss uses for all their final sporting powder

Swiss uses alder, blackthorn, for their charcoal. They buy the branches from Slovenia that are cut in the Spring when the glucose has the highest content (IMPORTANT FACTOR). Then they rick it by batches and let it age for 3 years.

[Fly]

Was my charcoal green?Well some what but I debark it & let it dry for about a week before
processing.

Now John your question on densities.The powder I made above is puluerone.It is not
corned & takes 1.5 more volume to make the same power as corned.But by weight I can
tell an advantage for sure.

Example is I have a 35 grain measure I made for my cap & ball Remy.To get the same power
from 40 grains of the puluerone powder.But if you were to use say Gorx you would use
the 35 grains.

But compare them on a gram scale & they weigh the same.Now if you take my puluerone
powder mix above & corn it 7.1 per cc densities there weight is about the same.

That was to be my next read on how to corn your powder at home.What you get with
corning powder over puluerone is using your powder measure you already have so the grain
weight is close to the manufacture stuff.

I can't tell any power difference at all as long as they weigh the same.Let me say this.
You do need to ball mill this powder & don't just mix it.If you do it what you get is called a green
mix.Yes it will burn, but you lose power.

Sorry I get thin skinned at times.I welcome discussion
but not argument.We all learn from one another but gain
nothing from argument.
Fly

[KCSO]

Static will nbot ignite GRAINS of powder, dust is another story, static will ignite flour dust. Powder it fine enough and static will ignite just about anything.

[Fly]

First of all NOT is not spelled nbot .And, as for flour dust quit making bread.You guy's see
what we are dealing with on this form.

[John Boy]

puluerone ... Fly, never heard the term before. Interesting

[shunka]

I too am most interested in this thread, thanks.

As previously pointed out, the "height a shot is thrown from a test mortar" was in fact one of the most common military tests of powder. The flagpole at Historic Ft Snelling, MN is calibrated for use with the powder testing mortar and shot. Simple but effective.

With all respect - perhaps instead of puluerone do you mean pulverone ?

yhs
shunka

[Fly]

shunka you are right pulverone, I miss spelled.I wish we had more posters as you & John.
Both of you know your Black Powder.I don't know everything I'm still on a learning curve
my self & most likely will till I die.

I,m always testing & trying different things.Any thing you can add to this post is welcome.
I enjoy discussion on this topic.
Thank you my friend, Fly

[Fly]

I will do a post on corning my powder at home, after the holliday.

Fly

[Catshooter]

Very interesting work you've done Fly. Please keep it up.

Dont' worry about being thin skinned, you're just human, like the rest of us. Plus, the written word isn't nearly as delicate as the spoken and people sometimes forget that.


Cat

[John Boy]

Pulverone ... Well, I'll Be! Thanks Fly & shunka, a new process for me

http://www.pyroguide.com/index.php?title=Pulverone_-_Black_powder

[Fly]

Very good John, good read.Thats almost to a tee to the way I do mine.I will add one thing thow.
I don't know if is really worth the trouble But I wet mine two times.I screen the second time.

I just think the charcoal takes the salt peter better.But that,s just my take.Also I have not milled mine that long.I have only run mine for 6 hours max.I might try doing the 24 hour thing & see
if I can tell a difference.

You know it is kinda like making beer.Some do this & other do that.But there all worth a try
right.
Fly

[John Boy]

I don't know if is really worth the trouble But I wet mine two times.I screen the second time.
Fly, per Dr Mann, The Flight of the Bullet, 1909:

... I've meant to try this with one of today's wheel milled powders, ie Swiss because they polish for 12 hrs for dense grains. Never got around to do it yet though.

But you have! Note the words - higher velocity!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ballstics/SwelledPowder.jpg

[Multigunner]

Replica Powder Testers were available from Dixie Gunworks I believe.
These are like a screw barrel pocket pistol with barrel replaced by a small chamber and spring loaded lid. A graduated scale and pointer gives the relative power of a measured charge.
They came in flintlock and percussion types.

Probably a good investment for those who wish to make their own BP. It could be used to judge effects of substitutions in components.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I like this thread! Great info. Keep it up, Fly.

I might eventually give the process a try someday- I need to get some KNO3 before they restrict any access to it! :grin:

I've got several pounds of sulfur, and can make the Black Willow charcoal too. It's made like the char cloth used by "mountain men" for fire starting. Scale up the process, and you could use a used, clean, resealable metal one gallon paint can for the charcoal chamber, too. :grin:

[John Boy]

Replica Powder Testers were available from Dixie Gunworks I believe.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=903

The price used to be around $125. This product is analogous to the Closed Bomb Tester that powder manufacturers use to determine the pressure for 100grs of powder during manufacture. Again, the 'heart' of original gunpowder is the quality of the charcoal. The more glucose (sugar) in the wood and the more retained creosote in the charcoal are the determining factors for good ignition (peak pressure curve) that results in higher velocities. Making quality black powder is not only a science, it is the art of the multiple processes!

[waksupi]

The more glucose (sugar) in the wood and the more retained creosote in the charcoal are the determining factors for good ignition (peak pressure curve) that results in higher velocities. Making quality black powder is not only a science, it is the art of the multiple processes!

So I wonder. Wouldn't surgur maple make a better charcoal then? I know surgur is an oxidizer in itself. I believe it may be used in brown powder.

[John Boy]

Wouldn't sugar maple make a better charcoal then?
waksupi... No, the first consideration is the cellulose of the wood. Sugar maple has a light cellulose weight
The wood of choice is alder with a heavy cellulose content... example, Swiss buys alder blackthorn for the gypsies in Slovenia. They cut branches only in the Spring when the sugar (glucose) is heavy in the wood. They then ship it to Swiss who ricks the branches and stores them by batches for 3 years. Then the bark is stripped off, branches put in the retort and fired at 320 C as charcoal. After cooling, it is ground and put in the wheel mill with the sulfur, saltpetre and water. The mill is run for 1200 turns for each batch.

Schuetzen and KIK (now bankrupt) also uses alder buckthorn. Goex uses red maple, aka swamp maple. When they were in PA, their subcontractor of charcoal was from Roseville. Their powder was much denser and had higher velocities then before Roseville went out of business. When they moved to LA, their charcoal vendor is not ascertainable, but it is swamp maple - thus producing a less dense powder

PS: Your premise of using sugar only as the oxidizer is valid. It was tried back in the old days by a few US manufactuers and proven to be less quality gunpowder

Powder Densities: Swiss v Goex

104.9 Swiss FFg
102.3 Swiss FFFg
94.1 Goex Cowboy
94.4 Goex FFFg 99JY02C
92.5 Goex FFFg 03 46 07NO03B
91.6 Goex FFFg 03 56 08NO02 B

The numbers represent > or < than 100cc's of water, factored as 1. Density is also a standard industry test

PS: Your premise of using sugar only as the oxider is valid. A few old time manufacturers tried it and determined it to be of less quality gunpowder. ClearShot tried making a substitute sugar based powder back in 1999 - 2001 ... they shortly went out of business!

[Charlie Sometimes]

Sugar is a hydrocarbon- add H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) to it and watch the chemical reaction build a column of carbon to the sky out of the beaker until one or both components have been used up! [smilie=w:
I'd think it would add extra energy to the blend- isn't that basically what the white BP substitutes are made from?
Out in my shop, I've got an old jar full of creosote that used to belong to my grandpa- how could you get more of that in there? :grin:

[waksupi]

Interesting. I had also never considered the thought to remove the bark before making the charcoal, but it does make sense.

[cajun shooter]

John Boy, I wonder with all the different types of trees on this planet if not another type would also equal or surpass the Blackthorn for making the finest charcoal. What type did Curtis Harvey use or is it Known? I wonder what our mentor has to say about this. The Dupont powders were of top grade? Is there anything on record as to what type any of the other finer BP companies used? Later David

[shunka]

Interesting. I had also never considered the thought to remove the bark before making the charcoal, but it does make sense.

Oh my yes, the bark can change everything. I have been told by an expert in the subject matter that leaving the bark on (ie going cheap in the manufacturing process) can ruin a batch of otherwise good charcoal, and thus the batch of BP.

Further there is a difference between the inner and outer barks. For completely different purposes, I collect red willow (chanshasha) and white willow, before spring. I first peel and discard the outer bark, (which looks like regular bark) then peel and save the inner bark, which looks green and slimy. The inner wood is light and porous, and can be made into light arrow shafts or an excellent charcoal stick, but I have not tried using the charcoal for BP.


yhs
shunka

[John Boy]

David, let me first apologize to all because I type it nearly every time as blackthorn and the charcoal is made from alder b-u-c-k thorn! Alder buckthorn!

OK, Curtis's & Harvey gunpowder was made initially in Wales. The plant burned down and then until they were purchased by Nobel Industries Limited, was made in Ardeer, Scotland. It is my understanding that they used alder BUCKTHORN :-) for their charcoal also. I am not 100% positive though. I have a couple of C&H reproduction publications but there is no mention about their process or the wood used other than technical loading data and that their Diamond grade was the best

Here's a blurb, that leads me to believe C&H used buckthorn at both their production facilities which was a common wood both in Great Britain and Scotland: The gunpowder mills at Chilworth in Surrey were established in 1626 on the course of The Tilling Bourne, a tributary to the River Wey... Alders grow profusely all along the River Wey, and they made good charcoal for gunpowder. The charcoal was burned in ‘pitsheads’ using traditional methods in the woods where the trees were grown.

The alder is part of the willow family and there are many species of alder.

You ask,

Is there anything on record as to what type any of the other finer BP companies used?
Nope! We know about sulfur & saltpetre, as for the wood used for the charcoal - Nope, except that Swiss, Schuetzen and KIK use the alder buckthorn. The DuPont Hagley Museum has volumes about gunpowder and there may be some notations in their papers about the formulation of C&H and other's charcoal. I know Bill Knight has spent several days their but he has never mentioned the wood that C&H used

I don't want to hijack Fly's thread so let me make a final comment: C&H's facility in Ardeer was bought out by Nobel Industries in 1971. Nobel made gunpowder there until 1976. I was afforded the opportunity to buy many 'ten's of pounds' @ $2.45 a can [smilie=1: of the powder they were selling as Meteor. The cans have a lot code of 1973. I have shot several pounds of the Meteor to-date in BPCR reloads and it produces high velocities for the FFg and FFFg granulation's. I am almost convinced that this Meteor is either the C&H formulation or possibly left over inventory of C&H.

OK Fly, back to you!

[Fly]

Hey John there is no high jacking here.This is the kind of open discussion I hoped for
when I started this thread.You guy,s are teaching me much I did not know.

The more we can learn from one another the better.Shunka the same from you.As
said, making black powder is indeed a art.

Fly

[John Boy]

This is the kind of open discussion I hoped for when I started this thread.Fly, that being your desire - put another music roll in the piano player and let's continue the discussion. This has been an educational thread for me because the one and only time I made my own, grinding dry, I flashed off my eyebrows and eye lashes.

[Fly]

Here is a very good read when you want to talk Swiss powder.http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/bp_menu.html Now what I call corning will differ as I press mine in a press
let it dry & then break it & then screen it.

But read this first & I will get back & do my read on the way I corn mine.My powder is more dense.

Fly

[yarro]

I wonder how much the growth rate of the tree affects the charcoal quality? The same tree grown in the north generally has denser wood than that species grown in warm southern climates.

-yarro

[John Boy]

I wonder how much the growth rate of the tree affects the charcoal quality?
Yarro, here is an average yearly temperature in Yugoslavia ... http://www.climate-charts.com/Locations/y/YG13462.php
Swiss - Schuetzen and formally KIK use alder buckhorn branches that are cut in late winter when the glucose content is highest. So don't believe growth rate is a consideration - it's the type of tree that is used to produce quality charcoal

[Charlie Sometimes]

I've got black willow that grows on my creek bank here in front of the house. :grin:
My neighbors are always asking, "when you gonna cut your creek bank?'
I alway tell them it is preventing soil erosion, as it seems to grow pretty fast.
Now I have another excuse- "I'm gonna make charcoal with it, so I'm letting it get bigger!"
Now when I do cut it, I'll be saving all the pieces. :groner:

I guess you work with what you have handy, eh? :smile:

[BulletGeek]

I've got black willow that grows on my creek bank here in front of the house. :grin:
My neighbors are always asking, "when you gonna cut your creek bank?'
I alway tell them it is preventing soil erosion, as it seems to grow pretty fast.
Now I have another excuse- "I'm gonna make charcoal with it, so I'm letting it get bigger!"
Now when I do cut it, I'll be saving all the pieces. :groner:

I guess you work with what you have handy, eh? :smile:

When you cut it, leave the stumps and they'll grow back. Also, if you've got green twigs left over, jab them cut-end down into the soft, wet soil of the creek bank, and they'll root where you put 'em... that way you can grow more. :D

[cajun shooter]

I have some pics of the locals at harvest time on the alder and it is small in circumference. It is loaded on mule or horse drawn carts and appears to be no larger than wrist or smaller in size. It is more of looking like a scrub brush tree than one that wood be taken down here by a lumber company.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Yep, wrist or forearm diameter is about where a couple of mine are now. I've cut them down before clearing the bank occassionally every few years. I think I will leave them and prune them to replant as BulletGeek mentioned. They pop up every where anyway- the other side of the bank is mostly sycamore (American Plane tree)- not for long now that I know what I can do with the black willow! :bigsmyl2:

What would be the smallest, useful diameter in making the charcoal?

What about using sycamore? It's kinda light and burns F-A-S-T when really dried out. I've LOTS of that down there, too! Maybe I can use that to build the fire to make the charcoal!

I'd better hurry before the govmint "rules" it illegal to build outdoor fires- working fireplaces are on the cap & trade hit list!

[John Boy]

What about using sycamore

Don't see why not ... Goex uses maple!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_pseudoplatanus

[Charlie Sometimes]

I meant this one-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platanus_occidentalis

Better for use as the charcoal making fire, I'd think.
Very light, once completely dried out, and burns up fast.

Sorry for the high jack! :oops:

[JIMinPHX]

PS: Your premise of using sugar only as the oxider is valid. A few old time manufacturers tried it and determined it to be of less quality gunpowder. ClearShot tried making a substitute sugar based powder back in 1999 - 2001 ... they shortly went out of business!

I seem to remember that there was a crude form of powder that could be made from sugar & a chlorate of some sort. I always thought that the sugar was the fuel & the chlorate was the oxidizer. There was some down side to using that mix. I don't remember what it was.

[perotter]

The main downside is that the what was a functional gun becomes parts of a gun. Some of those parts may be usable. Perchlorates have some use for this. Chlorates are only for primers in a gun. You are right about the sugar being the fuel.

IMO, chlorate gun powder would be a very last resort. Sure you're going to die if you don't.

[Jim]

Clear Shot was made from ascorbic acid, not sugar. Google "Golden powder".

[Boz330]

I seem to remember that there was a crude form of powder that could be made from sugar & a chlorate of some sort. I always thought that the sugar was the fuel & the chlorate was the oxidizer. There was some down side to using that mix. I don't remember what it was.

Possibly Potassium Chlorate. I made some powder years and years ago with that combination IIRC and it was VERY percussion sensitive. Not something that I would think desirable in a ML.

Bob

[Charlie Sometimes]

Why would you die without gun powder?

They had bow & arrow, spear, atatl, sling,, bolo, tomahawks, axes, swords, etc. long before handgones, matchlocks, etc. Perchlorates are too advanced, IMO, to be an component in a "self-sufficiency" scenerio, and too corrosive as well.

[perotter]

Why would you die without gun powder?



Everyone in the county is caring a torch, a pitch fork, axe & lynch rope. And they are getting to close to you for comfort?

[perotter]

They had bow & arrow, spear, atatl, sling,, bolo, tomahawks, axes, swords, etc. long before handgones, matchlocks, etc. Perchlorates are too advanced, IMO, to be an component in a "self-sufficiency" scenerio, and too corrosive as well.

Just salt & a little elec to make it. But it sure wouldn't be the top of the list of DIY powders for me. In & of it's self, it is not corrosive it the firing of it. It is the salt that is formed during combustion that attracts water That water is what causes the rust.

OT: 5 or 6 years ago when visiting a museum, the kids & I got to try a few different atatls. I didn't take long to get the hang of them. Half hour or so even the 6 year was able to hit the deer every try.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I meant from a subsistance stand point, but I see your angle.

You may only have ONE shot, or possibly 2 to 12 extra with a couple of belt pistols, in that "facing down a angry mob" scenerio.

If that situation should present itself- you will know they are coming, and I wouldn't be out in the open doing any shooting "from the front porch" where they could see me.

Arrows would be so quiet, that when they get hit, it will put the FEAR OF GOD in them faster than any thunderstick could. Besides, where I live, the whole county won't be coming here. It will be the sneaky few at night that you will have to post a watch for, or a trip wire. And you won't be "going to town" for supplies armed like that either. The three S's apply.

For a group of trouble makers- a suitable application of a homemade claymore would apply. :grin:

Make ALL shots count, be cool and steady under fire, keep moving, and, if you have anything worth keeping, no one will walk away to tell about it- that will save your lead, powder, and extend your life.

Sorry for the short high jack.

[giz189]

When are we gonna see the corning process?

[357maximum]

I used the BUST A COMPRESSED PUCK method...........here is a broad overview of the procedure I used. http://fogoforum.us/blackpowder.php

I used fancy bra$$ labratory screens that I borrowed from a friend/former employer that runs an asphalt/concrete/soil testing firm.............but the idea is the same.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

I enjoyed this one. This is one of the few threads I read from start to finish. I learned quite a bit about several issues/topics as the conversation progressed. I would also like to see it completed with the additional processes laid out. Maybe even get another "knock down n drag out" going. Livens things up and gets the blood hot and juices flowing. There's a lot of testosterone in the crowd we run with and rightly so........... :drinks:

Mike