Three 44s

[Lloyd Smale]

While the testing is done. I did end up finding a load that worked real well in all three. It is 10.2 grains of power pistol, a ww primer and the group buy 225 swcgc cast out of an alloy that is very close to #2 and lubed with bac. This load shot 3/4 in the 4 5/8s blackhawk one inch in the 4 inch 629 and 1 1/8 in the 3 in 29. this is for an average of 3 6 shot groups at a 25 yards (ya i know 44man) Let me tell you its tough finding a load that 3 guns like using the same bullet and alloy. Only other bullet that came close was the rcbs 240 swcgc. I found it about impossible to find a plain based bullet that perform the same in three guns. Id found may recipe that worked in two out of the three but never all three. I think one of the problems is the 3inch 29. It is a very finiky gun and either shoots a load well or sprays it all over the target. I used unique, herco, universal clays, power pistol and 2400 and power pistol was the hands down best performer across the board with 2400 second. I used ww, fed, and cci primers and the best load was with ww but it varied to much to really claim one did better then another. Dont know how many rounds were fired in this project but it was in the thousands. Time to chip the carbon off the guns and see what they look like blued and stainless instead of the black they are now. One more small project with my montado and thats it for the benching of handguns for the summer.

[44man]

Sounds good but a 3" gun is just harder to group.
Over the years of IHMSA shooting I found the S&W extremely grip sensitive. Just putting the gun down and picking it back up will move groups as much as 10" at 50 yards. If you put the gun down or shift your hand between each shot your groups will be huge.
I had many up to 10" and eventually sold them all. They rarely, if ever, won a match if you read the records.
They are super accurate and I had piles of 1/2" groups at 50 but everything else about them makes them too hard to shoot. I found only one way to shoot them, you super glue it to your hand! :bigsmyl2:

[Bass Ackward]

If I have a Smith with a 5" tube or less, it has a set of Herrett's on it now. Set it down and pick it up today, tomorrow, or 5 moths from now and POI is the same. (for the same load) It is virtually impossible to grip it any other way but from how the grip lets you grab it.

At least I don't have Jimmy's problems. Coarse I don't know that I ever did. Must be the foam off his beer.

Glad you got it to your satisfaction Lloyd. I might have to try some BAC. I need a (how do you define it) a neutral lube. I have a tendency to be too slippery with a short barreled tube, especially when using a GC.

[44man]

If I have a Smith with a 5" tube or less, it has a set of Herrett's on it now. Set it down and pick it up today, tomorrow, or 5 moths from now and POI is the same. (for the same load) It is virtually impossible to grip it any other way but from how the grip lets you grab it.

At least I don't have Jimmy's problems. Coarse I don't know that I ever did. Must be the foam off his beer.

Glad you got it to your satisfaction Lloyd. I might have to try some BAC. I need a (how do you define it) a neutral lube. I have a tendency to be too slippery with a short barreled tube, especially when using a GC.
BAC is OK. Glenn makes good lubes. Seems to be tacky enough. I like sticky lubes with lanolin.
LLA gets sticky, icky, but I can't get it to shoot, I still say it burns in the bore. Almost as if just the friction between the boolit and bore will light it. Stinky smoke. There should be no lube smoke.

[GLL]

These three men started here in March 2005 and have over 17,000 posts between them ! Whenever I see their names on a thread I read it carefully ! :) :)

Jerry

[alamogunr]

These three men started here in March 2005 and have over 17,000 posts between them ! Whenever I see their names on a thread I read it carefully ! :) :)

Jerry

I don't normally do "me too" posts, but on this I have to say Amen.

John
W.TN

[Changeling]

Not me, I know I'm going to hear some outstanding recommendations, or some awesome BS. So I go and get a beer, adjust my chair, relax (as best I can) and read the post 2 or 3 times! Seldom do I "not" learn something or have questions, (witch upset some people)!!

Kidding on the awesome BS of course!

[Lloyd Smale]

the bac i used was kind of a home made deal. Ive been using his corduba for quite some time and it has performed well but ive recovered some bullets with lube still in the grove. I used his bac a while back and it didnt do it but its a bit messy to use in the star. I had some bulk alox and beeswax and made some 5050 and then mixed it half and half with corduba. I too ended up being a messy lube and i think what im going to try next time is corduba/5050 alox in a ration of 2/3s corduba 1/3 alox mix. I use to make my own lube but after the fire i had jus to much other reloading dutys to attend to and just dont have the time and in all reality Lars lubes are as cheap as you can make them yourself anyway. One of my favorite lubes was felix mixed with corduba to stiffen it a bit.

[44man]

Hey Lloyd, it is spelled Carnauba! :mrgreen:
I bought a pound of flakes from Majestic Mountain Sage real cheap. Look under "fixed oils."
I hate Alox but Glenn makes it work. It is used to soften the waxes.
I feel Safflower oil or Ballistol would work 1000% better. Safflower oil has a very high flash point and I don't think Ballistol will even burn.
OK, I just made a test. Ballistol will burn but it takes some heat. I dipped a "Q" tip in it and put a lighter to it. It took a while until it started and then went out so I heated it again and got it very hot. It then burned slow.
I did the same with Safflower and I could not light it with a lighter. It got hot and dripped a drop on my finger---OUCH, but it never lit.
Now I don't have any LLA so would one of you dip a "Q" tip in it and see how it lights?
I tried Bullplate and it lit right up but burned slow.
I am going to make Felix with Safflower oil when I get time. It might be better then mineral and castor oils.
What do you think Felix?

[felix]

Do it, Jim, but replace the mineral oil first, and leave the castor oil. Then make another batch without the castor oil. Castor oil comes into play when the exit velocities go up with long barrels, and you should not see that problem with your revolters. Besides, a lube that does not char is an improvement, provided the viscosity remains intact for the application. The biggest problem is with that adjustment. ... felix

[GLL]

I spoke too soon ! Four men and 25,000 posts ! :)

Jerry

[44man]

Do it, Jim, but replace the mineral oil first, and leave the castor oil. Then make another batch without the castor oil. Castor oil comes into play when the exit velocities go up with long barrels, and you should not see that problem with your revolters. Besides, a lube that does not char is an improvement, provided the viscosity remains intact for the application. The biggest problem is with that adjustment. ... felix
OK, I will do it both ways. Castor will mix with safflower right off.
I have never felt there is a need for any mineral oils at all.

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry Jim but spelling isnt my strong suit. Im not a fan of tumble lube by a long shot but havent had that bad of luck with lubes like javalina. Keep in mind that it rarely gets over 80 degrees here and its mostly 60-70. The reason i mixed the alox with lars lube is i had some and some beeswax and need to use it up somehow and its easier then making a batch of felix to mix with it. I wont argue that bullet lube can make a diffence in how a load shoots in a sixgun but its one of the smaller variables in the big picture. One thing i can say about lubes like nra formula and javalina is i havent had any leading with handgun velocity loads with it. Problem is like i said is its messy and it does smoke alot. His carnaduba lube is great to deal with and doesnt smoke much but I just dont like the fact that lube is still on my bullets at handgun velocitys. I just dont have the time, at least till winter, to fool with exotic lubes and oils. Summers here and all i want to do is sling lead!

[44man]

sorry Jim but spelling isnt my strong suit. Im not a fan of tumble lube by a long shot but havent had that bad of luck with lubes like javalina. Keep in mind that it rarely gets over 80 degrees here and its mostly 60-70. The reason i mixed the alox with lars lube is i had some and some beeswax and need to use it up somehow and its easier then making a batch of felix to mix with it. I wont argue that bullet lube can make a diffence in how a load shoots in a sixgun but its one of the smaller variables in the big picture. One thing i can say about lubes like nra formula and javalina is i havent had any leading with handgun velocity loads with it. Problem is like i said is its messy and it does smoke alot. His carnaduba lube is great to deal with and doesnt smoke much but I just dont like the fact that lube is still on my bullets at handgun velocitys. I just dont have the time, at least till winter, to fool with exotic lubes and oils. Summers here and all i want to do is sling lead!
Do NOT worry if lube is on the boolits after shooting as long as it is even in the grooves. You do not want lube missing from spots. If all is gone it is better but if it is still all around the grooves evenly, you are good.

[MT Gianni]

I spoke too soon ! Four men and 25,000 posts ! :)

Jerry

And not much fluff from any of them either.

[buck1]

[QUOTE=Lloyd Smale;931266]While the testing is done. I did end up finding a load that worked real well in all three. It is 10.2 grains of power pistol, a ww primer and the group buy 225 swcgc cast out of an alloy that is very close to #2 and lubed with bac. This load shot 3/4 in the 4 5/8s blackhawk one inch in the 4 inch 629 and 1 1/8 in the 3 in 29. this is for an average of 3 6 shot groups at a 25 yards QUOTE]

SURE,SURE, I simply dont belive it!
LOL! JUST RIBBING YA BUDDY! :kidding::kidding::kidding::kidding::kidding:
Glad you got things going your way! ...Buck

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree pal but theres just something about lube in a grove that doesnt settle with me when i recover a bullet. Its to hard to judge if the same amount is present everytime and i still fall back on the thought that lube in the grove is lube that should have lubed. .
Do NOT worry if lube is on the boolits after shooting as long as it is even in the grooves. You do not want lube missing from spots. If all is gone it is better but if it is still all around the grooves evenly, you are good.

[44man]

I agree pal but theres just something about lube in a grove that doesnt settle with me when i recover a bullet. Its to hard to judge if the same amount is present everytime and i still fall back on the thought that lube in the grove is lube that should have lubed. .
Yes, it still did the job. Brittle lube will still lube the bore but can break out in chunks after leaving the muzzle making a boolit out of balance. Soft lube will all spin away when it leaves the muzzle.
Lube will be in the grooves working as long as the boolit is in the bore and it is only after it leaves that it can cause a problem.
If you have even distribution around the boolits you recover, it is OK.
Some of the hard lube used on commercial boolits will break loose in the shipping box and leave empty spaces in the grooves. You don't want to shoot these.
Remember that if a boolit has no lube in it when you recover it, that lube is NOT in the bore.
Some lube will coat the bore but if it burns behind the boolit and smokes, it is not good. It should only melt from powder heat.
Ash in the bore is no good. That is different from powder carbon.
This is a problem with a BPCR where lube must keep fouling soft and leave a grease star on the muzzle. I had trouble with SPG where the last 10" of barrel was so fouled a dry patch would not go through. Home made lubes never did that because the flash point was raised.
I really depend on Felix lube and Lar's Carnauba Red. The Red can stay in grooves as can LBT Blue but some can still leave. LBT soft Blue is better and the old magnum lube was good.
Notice these boolits. The commercial ones on the left are bad but the two on the right had Felix on them. They are perfect. But that missing lube is NOT all in the bore.

[Bass Ackward]

I sure don't have the lube in the groove problems that some folks do. You might dig for hours before you found one with any color.

If a bullet is not made to compress, then lube grooves would be best shaped like a widened / deepened crimp groove really. Allow the lube to slide up out to the bore surface where it could be used. My MM designs are on this theory. Rifles have higher RPM and velocity and don't need it so much.

This was a reason that a lot of hand gunners preferred the one big lube groove over the two smaller. The smaller space holds it in better for storage or loading, but also during the shot.

[44man]

Well fellas, lube is a strange thing. It must do something but when a boolit that is oversize to the bore and seals tight between steel and the boolit, where does lube go? Can it get between lead and steel?
The front drive band has no lube in front of it so it is lead against steel only. Then a lube groove or so that can squeeze some against the bore.
Of all the people here I will be the last to tell you what lube does but I see for myself that there is really a difference.
It is a crazy world and some things should not work.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, what is there to remove lube? Wind mostly. It has long been known that air flow gets in the grease grooves to ruin BC. Or does it?

What if you shoot a blunt enough object at high enough velocity? Maybe the rest of the bullet flies in the wake created by the nose. Thus, there is no high wind disturbance to remove it from what ever grooves you do have.

Maybe at lower velocity levels, with better BC designs, you get a better balanced bullet. So could meplat width arguments for bullet flight be related to unbalanced bullets from lube that hasn't been cleaned out yet?

More food for thought.

[44man]

Well, what is there to remove lube? Wind mostly. It has long been known that air flow gets in the grease grooves to ruin BC. Or does it?

What if you shoot a blunt enough object at high enough velocity? Maybe the rest of the bullet flies in the wake created by the nose. Thus, there is no high wind disturbance to remove it from what ever grooves you do have.

Maybe at lower velocity levels, with better BC designs, you get a better balanced bullet. So could meplat width arguments for bullet flight be related to unbalanced bullets from lube that hasn't been cleaned out yet?

More food for thought.
Not wind Bass, SPIN of the boolit, or did you forget about RPM's?

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know guys. Like everyone else i dont know every aspect to bullet lube and what it does but all i know is i dont like it to still be in a bullet when i find them in the dirt. Just like I dont like finding gas checks on the ground before the target.

[Bass Ackward]

Not wind Bass, SPIN of the boolit, or did you forget about RPM's?



Really? Here 1400 fps creates a 954 MPH head wind and 50k RPM can't remove lube off of a bullet? (20 twist)

Strange cause 800 fps and 29k RPM cleans mine.

Why the difference then? Cause when I went back and looked at the bullets in your picture, the lube is in the upper grooves where the plume from the wind on the nose would provide the most protection until the bullet lost enough velocity that the air would pass over it. Now I gotta go look.

I have a few hundred pounds of 200 grain Lee's that should make good comparisons. Some in 44 caliber that is more aerodynamic and has a smaller meplat vs the 200 gr 45s that has this hulking meplat. Both have close to the same width and shape grease grooves and both were using the same lube fired around the same velocity level. Might provide a clue here. The 45s were from a 15 twist compared to 20 for the 44s, so the 45s should be cleaner right?

What ever happens here is Lloyd's fault.

[45r]

Power pistol works very well sometimes,its my favorite in 45colt.I'm going to try it with my 44 and the rcbs 240GC.I've been using unique but like the way PP meters from a powder measure much better.

[azcruiser]

I have a 629 barrel 9 3/8 with a cymore sight likes the 2400 also likes 4227. Haven't loaded any lead in it for a long time got a deal on a case of ww44 mag nickel brass that was shipped by mistake to a dealer I know so I got it below cost since shipping back cost to much and then bought a case of 180 gr hp. ME in HOG HEAVEN
I can/t type it/s 8 3/8 heck i can/t see

[44man]

Really? Here 1400 fps creates a 954 MPH head wind and 50k RPM can't remove lube off of a bullet? (20 twist)

Strange cause 800 fps and 29k RPM cleans mine.

Why the difference then? Cause when I went back and looked at the bullets in your picture, the lube is in the upper grooves where the plume from the wind on the nose would provide the most protection until the bullet lost enough velocity that the air would pass over it. Now I gotta go look.

I have a few hundred pounds of 200 grain Lee's that should make good comparisons. Some in 44 caliber that is more aerodynamic and has a smaller meplat vs the 200 gr 45s that has this hulking meplat. Both have close to the same width and shape grease grooves and both were using the same lube fired around the same velocity level. Might provide a clue here. The 45s were from a 15 twist compared to 20 for the 44s, so the 45s should be cleaner right?

What ever happens here is Lloyd's fault.
I do not attribute lube loss to wind. A flat nose has a large pressure wave that does not allow wind to touch the boolit sides and if you seen photos of this, turbulence starts behind the boolit. Even a pointed bullet has a large wave that never really connects to the sides. Now look at this. The plane is INCREASING velocity so the wave moves back until the plane is through it. A boolit SLOWS and the wave stays at the nose until it drops below super sonic. But with a flat meplat it does not go away entirely.
I have other boolits that have lube missing from the front grooves but is still in the rear.
The right lube will spin off as the boolit is exiting the muzzle. Hard lube can chunk off anywhere downrange.
The vortex created by high rpm's also keeps wind away from a boolit. You will have a hard time convincing anyone that wind removes boolit lube.

[Bass Ackward]

The vortex created by high rpm's also keeps wind away from a boolit. You will have a hard time convincing anyone that wind removes boolit lube.




Well, there has to be something going on. And it is recognized that grease grooves ruin BC. How can it do that if air isn't affecting it? And if it is affecting it, then to decrease it, it has to have a drag effect.

The force of 50k RPM should be able to fling solid Super Glue off a slug. The larger the bullet diameter rotating at 50k, means the faster the surface is traveling and more force that it has to have. No lube, no matter it's composition should be able to withstand that force. But it does. So there is some other factor involved.

That plus the fact that it gets more difficult to shoot wider meplats without increasing weight / length (BC) and velocity could be related to a degree. Now why? Lube is not generally a problem for me. Remember, people send me everything to try so I cover the spectrum too.

Don't forget, a slug passes through twice if it goes far enough. Below the barrier, it's a whole different ball game as there is no wave. Regardless, you aren't asked to do anything here. You can set back and drink beer and get an answer that may or may not have relevance. That's called a freebie.

It's recovery time anyway. I dug up several buckets worth so far, but stopped when it got hot enough. I will gather more then go through them this weekend maybe depending on family plans.

[44man]

Well. my boolits were recovered at 50 yards so there is no "inny, outy" of super sonic to subsonic. It will be one or the other.
The spin of my .475 is 65,376 rpm's. If I put a ring on the side, can you hang on?
Why some hard lube stays in grooves is a mystery. It might get locked in by the land extrusions.
BC only has an affect at long range after a transition where air does flow over the boolit but I can't see that air removing hard lube, in fact it might help hold it in the grooves by the boundry layer. At this point a groove with some lube gone will create turbulence at that spot.
If lube is not gone right out of the muzzle, I don't see anything else removing it.

[44man]

Just maybe my love of soft, gooey Felix lube has a basis in fact.

[Lloyd Smale]

Dont worry pal. Ive got big shoulders.
Really? Here 1400 fps creates a 954 MPH head wind and 50k RPM can't remove lube off of a bullet? (20 twist)

Strange cause 800 fps and 29k RPM cleans mine.

Why the difference then? Cause when I went back and looked at the bullets in your picture, the lube is in the upper grooves where the plume from the wind on the nose would provide the most protection until the bullet lost enough velocity that the air would pass over it. Now I gotta go look.

I have a few hundred pounds of 200 grain Lee's that should make good comparisons. Some in 44 caliber that is more aerodynamic and has a smaller meplat vs the 200 gr 45s that has this hulking meplat. Both have close to the same width and shape grease grooves and both were using the same lube fired around the same velocity level. Might provide a clue here. The 45s were from a 15 twist compared to 20 for the 44s, so the 45s should be cleaner right?

What ever happens here is Lloyd's fault.

[Lloyd Smale]

you guys just keep on arguing on why it stays and ill keep making and buy lubes that just dont stay in the grove. I like small groups not long theroys ;)

[dubber123]

you guys just keep on arguing on why it stays and ill keep making and buy lubes that just dont stay in the grove. I like small groups not long theroys ;)

Lloyd, I've told you before, if you keep making sense, they are gonna throw you out... :lol:

[Lloyd Smale]

I havent been "thrown out" because i was dissagreeable for probably 20 years. Use to happen pretty regularly when I was young. At least it wont be as painfull here ;)

[Bass Ackward]

I recovered 5 1/2, 5 gal buckets full of bullets. The vast majority of these were handgun because I haven't shot much cast rifle at this back stop since the last recovery.

I could not find a single slug with color. I was expecting to see some because I had been using a couple of lubes that require heat that I have been using up. That plus the fact that velocity here was basically sub 1100 fps for 90% of this stuff.

Just finished smelting and it came to around 400, 1# ingots that I usually get heavy. So I am going to guess about 500 lbs of lead.

At least I got motivated to do the recovery.

[felix]

Dang! 500 pounds from YOUR guns? That would have been a life time of my shooting including condoms. Even at that rate, I doubt Corky, his friends, and me will ever have to dig up any unless for the shear enjoyment of being out gathering it for lack of something mo'betta' to do at that moment. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Dang! 500 pounds from YOUR guns? That would have been a life time of my shooting including condoms. Even at that rate, I doubt Corky, his friends, and me will ever have to dig up any unless for the shear enjoyment of being out gathering it for lack of something mo'betta' to do at that moment. ... felix



Really? Lets do the math:

500 lbs x 7000 grains per lb = 3,500,000 divided by 225 (average weight guestimate) is only 15.5k. I went through @ 25k primers last year with that being an average I would guess. And an unusually heavy percentage of that was into that pile cause I was doing before and after testing on undersized throats on two new 44s.

I'd say that there has to be a lot more there. Probably after the next rain I will get another couple of buckets.

[Thumbcocker]

Mr. Ackwards;

You Sir are something that I aspire to. 500# of boolits recovered from YOUR backstop. WOW.

[44man]

Mr. Ackwards;

You Sir are something that I aspire to. 500# of boolits recovered from YOUR backstop. WOW.
That is good. All of my boolits turn to dust in the rocks in the ground behind the target or on steel. I had to make a boolit trap to save lead.
Even at the club there are rocks and gravel in the berms.

[Bass Ackward]

That is good. All of my boolits turn to dust in the rocks in the ground behind the target or on steel. I had to make a boolit trap to save lead.
Even at the club there are rocks and gravel in the berms.


Well there you are. You always wanted proof of the superiority of softer bullets. You have it now. :grin:

[44man]

Well there you are. You always wanted proof of the superiority of softer bullets. You have it now. :grin:
I can't even save pure lead round balls from a muzzle loader Bass. Even shotgun slugs vanish, leaving a few buts and pieces.
Come shoot your soft boolits and I will give you a shovel and crowbar. You might find a few that went in between the rocks! :kidding:

[Lloyd Smale]

I feel lazy now! I have a container under my bullet trap that collects my lead that i use in load developent. I holds probably 5 gallons and i usually empty it about once a year. My trap usually turns them to a fine dust though and weights enough where we lift it with a bucket on a tractor. I wish i could recover all the lead i shoot but just the load development lead helps.
Really? Lets do the math:

500 lbs x 7000 grains per lb = 3,500,000 divided by 225 (average weight guestimate) is only 15.5k. I went through @ 25k primers last year with that being an average I would guess. And an unusually heavy percentage of that was into that pile cause I was doing before and after testing on undersized throats on two new 44s.

I'd say that there has to be a lot more there. Probably after the next rain I will get another couple of buckets.