303 BR 155gr Cast NO GC Load?

[Cactus]

Hi all, GREAT FORUM, I have read here for a while and thought it was time to ask a question...

Been testing with 2400 and the CE Harris article, 15 grains has been great in my Sks along with 16 or 17 grains in my Enfield using GCs. Now I want to try some unchecked WW cast in my Enfield and SKS working the action manually.

What is a good starting point for a 150 and 180grm Lee cast bullet to get 1000 to 1200 fps without leading the barrel using 2400? I was thinking of starting in the 8 or 9 grain range. Is that too high?

Since it is a bolt gun, cycling the action is not a concern but getting the right amount of powder behind the bullet to get the most out of it without leading is what I am after. Unfornunately no chrony to test with so if someone who has already done this could provide some test data that would be great.

Thanks,
Cactus

[Ben]

It has been my experience that shooting rifle bullets that have a g/c shank on them and doing it without a g/c simply keeps primer and powder companies in business.

It is doubtful that you'll get very much satisfaction from this venture. This issue has been hashed and re-hashed here on this forum already.

A plain based bullet..........................YES
A gas checked bullet with the g/c......YES
A g/c bullet without the g/c................NO

You might like to do a search on shooting g/c bullets without the g/c. I wish you well, but the odds are not in your favor on this venture.

[RU shooter]

I have to disagree with Ben on this one, It may just have been I've been luck shooting unchecked GC design bullets in several of my rifle ,But I have had very good results shooting them out to 100 yds. I didnt use 2400 though I normally used bullseye or W231 , For the SKS I was using 4.5-5 grs with 150 gr boolits Bullets were subsonic but accuracy good. for the bigger cases I used the load That Larry Gibson told me about 5-6 grs of Bullseye.For W231 I have always had to up the load about 1.5 grs to equal the bullseye loads accuracy. My best results have been with the Lee 155 and 6.0 gr Bullseye 10 rd groups of 2.5 moa @ 100 yds are the norm from my 03A3 .As always your results may vary just sayin it can be done ,but keep the speed in the 22LR range

[megafatcat]

Looking at an old Lyman manual, these with gc,
155 gr 2400 20 gr 1845fps --- 24gr 2109fps

205gr 2400 19gr 1628fps -- 24gr 1893fps

A bit hot for a plain base bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

As RU shooter states; I would say between 5 and 6 gr of Bullseye with the Lee 155 GC bullet sans the GC will be about as good as it will get.

Larry Gibson

[Ben]

It is very possible that what I call acceptable accuracy and what someone else calls acceptable may very well be different. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I've shot a lot of gas checked rifle bullets without the gas checks.....It has always been a waste of time for me.

If the cost of a g/c is an issue, I go with a plain base bullet. I've shot some fine groups with plain based .30 cal. bullets, but not with 30 cal. bullets that were designed with a g/c shank and leaving off the g/c.

If you're doing it and happy with the results, that's fine. I guess there are many ways to skin a cat.

[Cactus]

Thanks for the replys guys,

The cost of the GC is not the issue... Living in the armpit of Canada where there is never anything in stock at the local gun shops is.

My thought was a lower power round (out to 100 yards) would save the GC supply for when I was able to do some longer range shooting.

Cactus

[Pirate69]

I have to agree with Ben, what is acceptable to one person may not be acceptable to another. In my Savage No. 4 Mark 1, I can get < 2" at 50 yards and < 4" at 100 yards with an unchecked GC bullet and a mild dose of Bullseye. That makes me happy with what I am shooting. Not sure if I could be any better with a checked bullet.

[damron g]

Shot 6-7 BE grains in my .303 Ross with very good luck with the NEI Harris bullet sans GC.



George

[Crash_Corrigan]

If you are gonna mess with using a GC shanked boolit w/o a gas check:

1-Use a PSB filler and lighten up on the powder charge. The filler will protect the base of the boolits from gas cutting and increase the velocity whilst decreasing the amount of powder necessary. PSB is good, dacron also good, COW also can work well but smelly nasty when burned.

2-go one up to the PP forum thread and learn to PP your boolits. No need for a filler and the paper patch protects the base of the boolits and also leaves your barrel really clean.

3-do both. PSB filler and paper patch. You can custom tune your boolits to fit your barrell by using a paper patch.

I have a SMLE No 4 Mk I that has a .317 chamber ahead of the loaded boolit. Shooting .312 boolits beagled up to .314 still did not do the trick for me. So I PP the boolits to .317 and added PSB to the powder to fill the case so I only had a slight crunch when I seated the boolit.

EXcellent accuracy and I saved on powder. I did not have to beagle the mold any more and cast .312 boolits and sized them down to .311 in a Lee push thru sizer. Then two wraps of computer paper applied with a cigarette roller wet and let them dry overnight. Clipped the twisted ends with a nail clipper and filled the case with PSB over my powder charge. I am a happy camper.

[Jim Sheldon]

I tried shooting some 180 grain bullets (with the gas check shank) with and without the gas checks out of my Mosin 91/30. Started out using the same charge with both (13.0 grains of IMR Trail Boss and then made up another batch using 16 grains of 2400).

The ones with the gas check shot under an inch at 100 yards, but the ones I left the GC off patterned like a shotgun. There weren't two holes within a half inch of each other and 30 shots (15 with trail boss, 15 with 2400) covered pretty much every inch of a 1" gridded 100 yard sight-in target with a 12" gridded circle.

I don't have a plain base mold in .311 or .312 so don't have a way to do that test yet, but I hadn't thought about trying paper patching in place of the GC. Gonna have to learn how to PP those boolits and try it again.

I did order one of PatMarlins "Checkmaker" gas check forming dies so I can make my own checks out of aluminum pop/beer cans, and there's a guy over on eBay selling his "Freechex III" check maker dies that looks really good as well. You might consider getting either Pat's or Charlie's check making dies. That way you won't have to be tied to the local supply and can recycle those old "Molson" cans [smilie=l:

[damron g]

"tried shooting some 180 grain bullets (with the gas check shank) with and without the gas checks out of my Mosin 91/30. Started out using the same charge with both (13.0 grains of IMR Trail Boss and then made up another batch using 16 grains of 2400)."

I shoot 11.0 of TB with plain base in 3 Mosins with good bores and it does well. The loads you used of 2400 and TB are 1450 fps in my rifles and that's the point where PB accuracy seems to fall off badly for me."Sometimes" with hard plain base bullets that fit he throat perfectly i can get away with that much velocity,but not consistently.

groups shown are at 200 yards and pretty typical for the 11.0 load with 180-195 bullets.Not spectacular but reliable.Rifle was with 6x scope,10 shot groups.

(click on image to make it bigger,i just figured this out)

George

[Piedmont]

Another CE Harris article, one on cast in military rifles, recommended taking culls and tumble lubing them and firing without the check for offhand 100 yd practice. I followed his advice, which was 7 grains of any fast burning powder in the larger cases (that would NOT include 7.62x39), for some Mosin Nagant plinkers and was astounded by how well they shot.

I was using surplus powder but would probably just go with Bullseye since that is gone. Fit is important (these were around .003" over groove) and keep the load really light.

I have sub 4" ten shot 100 yd. groups from several Finn Mosins and remember a 3.25"er in particular.

Think 1000 fps or under, not 1200 and I think you will do fine.

[damron g]

A plain based bullet..........................YES (agree but not always the best choice)
A gas checked bullet with the g/c......YES agree
A g/c bullet without the g/c................NO i say yes when shot at proper velocity



Just shot NEI #72 "Harris" bullets sans GC in 91-30 Russian 6 x scope very good ,but not mint bore. Groups typical of GC bullet with no GC when shot at plain base velocities for me(1200fps or so)Bullet is generally one of the best grouping plain base in the 7.62 x 54, 7.65 Argentine and 303 even though its not a "real" plain base bullet.
Load was 11.0 of Trail Boss @ 1180 fps.Bullet cast 6 hours before shooting in a 6 cavity mold.All odds against me<G>To make matters worse some bullets had small wrinkles on the noses as all i did was fire up the pot cast a few last minute and mold wasn't really "up to speed" yet.With the low velocity stuff i seem to get away with less than perfect bullets up to 100 yards.(sometimes) Wow with a "real" PB bullet and perfect bullets i bet i have a 1/2" gun!!(seriously i don't believe that)

If i wanted to shoot plain base bullets just occasionally i wouldn't buy a plain base.Try your most accurate GC bullet bare bottom and just shoot a appropriate velocity.Use you culls as the guy earlier said you'll be surprised.

25 loaded. two used for re-zeroing scope,Then 4 consecutive 5 shot groups @ 100 yards and last three 'leftover" bullets shot on aiming point to left.


George

[Stoats]

I have found that provided you keep the velocity under 1200 ft./s, and the powder extremely fast, you can get away with murder -- even undersize bullets!

[damron g]

I have found that provided you keep the velocity under 1200 ft./s, and the powder extremely fast, you can get away with murder -- even undersize bullets!


Agree,you don't even need a nose that rides the bore at all.I have great luck seating the bullets deep as well.Sometimes following the "common knowledge" doesn't let you learn anything.

George