mil dot

[82nd airborne]

The following is a short guide that scratches the surface of utilizing the mildot system as a method of range finding and compensation/doping. it is not complete, or really even that thorough, as that would take pages and pages of type, and more knowledge on the subject than I have. If you see I have left a crucial bit of imformation out, please feel free to add to it, or correct any mistakes I have made.
Mil is short for milliradian, which is an angular unit of measure that is dang near 1 yrd at 100yrds. This also means that a mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yards. On a mil dot reticle, the distance from the center of the crosshairs to the center of the first mil dot down is one mil. Knowing this ratio and a simple mathmatical formula, we can derive the actual distance from the shooter to the target, then use the reticle to hold over the proper distance for a hypothetical first shot hit. On most scopes the distance between dots are a true mil at 10x or the highest power if the scope cannot reach 10x. Some are not so it is best to find the manufacturers specs on the reticle. A way to test for acuracy it to draw a 3.6" shape on a target at exactly 100 yards and see if it spans from the center of the reticle to the center of the first dot.
To use the system as a range finder, the user must know the size of an object the same distance as the target to plug into the formula, which is as follows:

Height of the target in yards x 1000/ Mils the target spans= distance to target in yards.

A calculator is handy for this as your height in yards will likely be a decimal.

Let's say the target is a 6' tall man. You look at this tall towel head thru your scope and he spans 5 mils from head to to. plug in the nubers to your formula.
target is 2 yrds high x 1000/ 5 mils= said target is 400 yards away. since you've practiced at this range, you hold over or dial in the proper amount, breath out, and pull the trigger straight to the rear in a smooth stready fashion, after youve figured the wind, angle, and all the other jazz, and walla, target falls.

Hopefully we will be trying this on deer instead. Next time you harvest an average sized deer for your area, measure from feet to vitals and figure this in yards, which will be less than one, unless you live by a nuclear power plant. you then have the first variable in your formula. next time you need to take a shot, set you're scope on the proper setting, and count the number of mils the target spans. Next, work the formula and you have the distance. Laser rangefinders also work, unless you dont have batteries. I hope someone gains something this write up. You must PRACTICE with your rifle/scope combo for this to be effective,
Aaron

[Larry Gibson]

82nd

Did they let you use a MILDOT MASTER analong slide rule? It is a lot easier than using a slide rule and batteries (in calculator) don't go dead because there isn't any. Besides being really quick at giving the range it gives scope adjustments in MOA and/or hold over in mils. It also provides a quick zero range for uphill or downhill shooting. If one is going to use mildots to guesstimate range then using the MILDOT MASTER is a whole lot quicker than using the calculator. It is available at www.mildot.com.

It's always good to know the formula too as when all else fails you can always long hand (pre calculator/computer age) it if you know how.

Larry Gibson

[markinalpine]

Here's a relative web-site: http://www.mil-dot.com/

Mark :coffeecom

[82nd airborne]

I personally have never messed with one, but that is a fantastic concept from what ive read. Ill probably get one here shortly, now that im practiced up the old fashion way. you pretty much summed up how to do it with the mildot master, in one paragraph. I didnt even get close to explaining how to do it in full detail the basic way, it would take a few more pages. but with those basic pointers, just about anybody can learn the rest from there. another thing i find handy is practicing ranging with your mildots, then lasing it to see how close you where. thanks for the constructive addition, good stuff.
aaron

[Just1Mor]

So myself being a person of limited resources (cant afford nightforce, us optics, etc) have picked up a tru glo 6-24 mil-dot at a local gun show, do you happen to know what power i might find the true mil power.

and for the test you have put down is that a 3.6 circle?

[82nd airborne]

most likely 10, but id call true glo and find out for sure. just draw anything 3.6" tall and put the center of the cross hairs at the top and turn the dial untill the middle of the next dot down is lined up with the bottom of your drawing. this is at 100 yards. on some less expensive scopes you will do this test and find that the true mill is between the powers enscribed on the ring. if this is the case turn the dial until you find out where a true mil is and mark it with a auto centering punch or paint marker.

[Just1Mor]

most likely 10, but id call true glo and find out for sure. just draw anything 3.6" tall and put the center of the cross hairs at the top and turn the dial untill the middle of the next dot down is lined up with the bottom of your drawing. this is at 100 yards. on some less expensive scopes you will do this test and find that the true mill is between the powers enscribed on the ring. if this is the case turn the dial until you find out where a true mil is and mark it with a auto centering punch or paint marker.

Thanks for the tip! i have been stuggling with that. I had called and could not find out. thanks again.

[gray wolf]

This is from a post I did on another forum, I was trying to help some one with mill dots.
Perhaps it can shed some light on mill dots. Hope it helps, and it is not written in stone.

It's been a long time for me but I will try to give you an understanding of how to use your mill dot scope.

Many times you will hear people refer to there mill dot reticule as a military dot.-------------Wrong--------
Mill Radiant is what it means and this is how it works.

If we look through our scope we will see a cross hair with Dots that go up from center and down from center, also left and right. We will use the center of each dot as a reference. The cross hair intersect is the same as a dot center. So from the middle of one dot or it's center to the center of the next dot is one mill. Mid point would be a half mill, It can even be broken down into tenths. Some of the better scopes have little hash marks in between the dots to break them down into 1/10's.
LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR, MILL DOTS WORK ONLY AT TEN POWER.
So what are mill dots used for? they are for ranging a target.
They let you know the distance to your target, and this is how to use them.
The most demanding thing is to know the size of your target. In combat
a sniper gets to know his surroundings and what they measure.
He knows the average man is about 70" tall and about 35" in kneeling.
Also he will study the hight of enemy vehicles, windows, door ways and anything else in the area.
At 100 yards 3.6" will fit between a mill dot center to center. The scope is zeroed at 100 yards. The sniper must know his scopes come ups
( his clicks for elevation on the scope for the different distances to allow for bullet drop. this is done on the shooting range. So if I am zeroed for 100 yards I know that in order to hit at 200 yards I must come up lets say 5"
If the scope has 1/4 Min. clicks that is 1/4" for each click. So 5" would be 20 clicks up on the elevation turret. After the shot the scope can be brought
back down 20 clicks and be a the 100 yard zero again, and ready for the next shot.
Lets go to the range and put a 3.6" card out at 100 yards. Get a steady rest and site on the 3.6" card. If we place the cross hair on the bottom of the card the top of the card should come to rest in the middle of the first dot up that is one mill, or we can say the target is taking up one mill.
You must be as accurate as you can with these measurements.
Here is the formula
We know the target is 3.6" and it takes up 1 mill.
So it's the target size(3.6) times 27.8 divided by one mill.
3.6X27.8=100.08divided by the one mill=100.08 yards.
So lets say a Deer was in our scope and the average Deer was 20" from it's back to it's belly. We look in the scope and the Deer takes up three Mills from his back to his belly. The cross hair intersect is on his belly and his back is on the middle of the third dot up. (three mills)
So how far away is he?
We know he is twenty Inches thick, so 20X27.8=556 divided by 3=185.33 yards to the target. So I would adjust the scope for a 200 yard shot.
Let say our target is in a farm house window and we must know the range.
If we did our homework we know that windows in the area are 48" tall.
OK we get set up and see that with the cross hair on the bottom of the window the top of the window is past the 4th mill dot and is half way to the 5th. So it takes up 4 1/2 mills in the scope. How far away is the window?
The window is 48" tall--so 48X27.8=1,334.4 divided by the 4.5 mills=296.5
yards. So I would adjust my scope elevation turret for a 300 yard shot.
Remember I have pre determined my scope adjustment for the different distances at the shooting range. so I know how I have to dial in my elevation clicks for each different distance.
It seems like a lot of work, but you get used to it quickly and there are cheat cards you can by that work like a little slide rule and it can go quickly.
Remember to have the scope at 10 power. The dots can be used the same way side to side as up and down


Gray Wolf

[deltaenterprizes]

Thanks for the explanations, I will need to read them a couple times to get where I can remember how to use them.

[82nd airborne]

good explanation gray wolf, i was hoping some one would pop in there with some measurements from a deer.

[Lead Fred]

Ive used a Mil Dot Master with a range card for years. After practice, the numbers for your rifle become well known.

You can buy this simulator and not waste ammo learning.

http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html

I use a mil dot scope on 300 win mag, 30-06, 308, and even 22 rimfire

[deerslayer]

I am definetely learning here guys. Thanks for all the help.

[scrapcan]

Also one must be aware that there are two types of mildot reticules (probably more if one looks). The USMC and the US Army type. One type uses round dots and the other uses oval dots. They have different subtends for the reticule features.

The following article from mildot.com should be required reading for people discussing MOA or MilRadians. This will give you the calculations and the theory behind both topics.

http://www.mil-dot.com/Content%20images/The_Derivation_of_the_Range_Estimation_Equations.p df

Also one can get the subtends for their scope, if the manufacturer has them, you can use a regular scope in the same fashion. Or use a know target size, say 18 inches and make a range card of of what power at what distance makes the target fit some aspect of the reticle. here is a link to such info from burris optics. Some of the lower end optics do not have these available, but you can do the same thing as outlined above with a known target size at given ranges.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/scopespecs1.html

or one can learn the maxium point blank range concept and learn what magnification gives you the desired maximum PBR for your came and cartridge. Turn your scope to that power and if target is bigger than the subtensions used for range estimation, you hold dead on and use the kill zone size(ie 6 inches for elk/deer) to launch one to the intended target. This requries that the rifle be sighted in at a ragne calculated and not a normal 100, 200 , etc... and may not be suitable on quite a few ranges who will not let you set targets at varying ranges. Or you can calculate the strike height at the normal ranges, most ballistic software will dothis for you.

Here is an ok intro to the concept, lots more can be found with your friendly search engine.

http://www.rmvh.com/MPBR.htm

[82nd airborne]

Good addition Manleyjt! I had considered going in to the bdc type reticle and rangeing using standard duplex but it would have made for some long reading. good links and good advice. thanks

[scrapcan]

Yep I like the concept of using the mildot also. It also lets me carry another sandwich or snack instead of spending a heap on a range finder and then leaving the extra eats at camp.

[StarMetal]

I have a DVD where you are at the shooting ranges shooting various calibers 5.56, 308, 338, and 50 cal with mil dot scopes from close to extreme distances with all variations and directions in wind. It gives a very good tutorial on mil dot use. It's very good to see how "good" you think you are with a mil dot scope, ranging distances and doping the wind.

[82nd airborne]

You should make a free copy for ever castboolits member StarMetal. Im sure it wouldnt take but a minute or two...

[StarMetal]

You should make a free copy for ever castboolits member StarMetal. Im sure it wouldnt take but a minute or two...

It's also called "pirating" [smilie=s:

[82nd airborne]

oh, i thought that was stealing ships or something, oh well.

[StarMetal]

No it's stealing software. Microsoft goes after people that do that with any of their software. Ever notice on watching a movie DVD the first thing up is from the FBI that it's illegal to copy the movie?

Nope, I'd like to help the members out, but I'm not doing that, sorry.

Now if Willy could come up with a way to put it on the website that members could play it, that might work.

I tell you if you can go through this DVD and make every shot you would probably quality for any of the military sniper schools. It's not easy.

[82nd airborne]

im just givin you a hard time, I do think it would be cool if there was a way to do something like that here, but that may be kind of far fetched.

[BD]

So, any scope recommendations? Will $300 do it? It would seem that the accuracy of the reticule, and repeatability dialing up and back would be pretty important.

[gray wolf]

repeatability dialing up and back would be pretty important.

I would say very important, and all the other benefits that go into a well made piece of glass.
A person that really knows there rifle, and there ammo can be very deadly at long ranges.
What you are doing with a mill dot is getting the exact range of the target.
If you do your part, lets not forget that a mill
( center of one dot to the center of the next dot) can be broken down into tenths, that is why some dedicated mill dot scopes have the tenth of a mill hash marks in between the dots.
Also the turrets may adjust in mills not MOA.

[StarMetal]

So, any scope recommendations? Will $300 do it? It would seem that the accuracy of the reticule, and repeatability dialing up and back would be pretty important.


I'm using a Burris 4.5x14 with mil dot on my Grendel. Really nice scope for the money.

On the Swede is the 3x10 Tasco Target with their mil dot. Not in the same league as the Burris, but for an el cheapo not bad.

[82nd airborne]

millet and leatherwood make good accurate mil dots for the 300 price range
i like the bushnell elite 3200 series as well.

[sagamore-one]

Super Sniper scope from SFWA is a GREAT scope at a decent price, $350 + - .
I have two ten power on center fire and a 20 power on a rimfire. Best bang for the buck in a mil dot scope. They work and work and work. Repeatability of clicks is super. Optics are better than expected on a scope that retails under a grand.
Excellent scope !!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

So, any scope recommendations? Will $300 do it? It would seem that the accuracy of the reticule, and repeatability dialing up and back would be pretty important.

I've got 2 Nikon Buckmaster 4.5x14Xs with mildot reticles. They are working very well for me and the elevation /windage track really well also. I got both new for $290 and $300. You might take a look at them. One of them also came with a coupon for the MilDot Master analog slide rule for $10 or 15, don't rememebr which. Good scopes for the $s in my opinion.

Larry Gibson

[Adam10mm]

I'm using a Burris 4.5x14 with mil dot on my Grendel. Really nice scope for the money.
Big fan of Burris scopes.



On the Swede is the 3x10 Tasco Target with their mil dot. Not in the same league as the Burris, but for an el cheapo not bad.
Agree. Had a Tasco 2.5-10x44 target scope on my 7mm-08 with mil dot reticle and it really surprised me with how it held up. Think I paid $70.

[Larry Gibson]

I see the MilDot Master Range and Bullet Calculation Guide (analogue slide rule) is on sale at Midway for $27.99.

Larry Gibson

[Dutchman]

Angular mil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_mil

* 1⁄6400 of a circle in NATO countries.

* 1⁄6283 The “real” trigonometric unit of angular measurement of a circle in use by telescopic sight manufacturers using (stadiametric) rangefinding in reticles.

* 1⁄6000 of a circle in the former Soviet Union and Finland (Finland phasing out the standard in favour of the NATO standard).

* 1⁄6300 of a circle in Sweden. The Swedish term for this is streck, literally "line". Sweden has not been part of NATO nor the Warsaw Pact. Note however that Sweden is changing its map grid systems and angular measurement to those used by NATO, so the "streck" measurement is about to become obsolete.

********************

The Swedish Mauser bore disc have a sighting correction that's measured in streck. On the disc it's abbreviated as Str http://dutchman.rebooty.com/disc.html

The Swedes used 6300 streck to a circle but have gone to the NATO standard.
In Sweden it's had a long history in artillery.

Dutch

[BD]

I've been reading up a bit and looking at various scopes. One thing that baffles me is why don't more folks make a mil dot with mil adjustments? It seems foolish to need the math because the scope adjustments are in moa. It would seem to me that the fastest, most intuitive, arrangment would be a first focal plane mildot reticule with mil adjustments. Why is that so rare?

BD

[gray wolf]

OK --I do known some about mill dot scopes and how to use them, but I will show my ignorance and ask a question.
If we have a mill dot scope and in between each dot we have the 1/10 hash marks that's a big help for us to see exactly what the mill reading is. It seems it would be easier than
trying to figure if the target measured 1.5 mills--- when perhaps it was really 1.7
That part is a no brainer and would make our ranging much more accurate.
But the whole proses is to get the range to the target.
So after we have the range to target, and we know we are zeroed for 100 yards, We should know our scope come ups for the different distances in advance, TO SAY, our target is 350 yards away, OK I know from my range work that for 350 yards I must come up 16 inches
so I adjust my scope the proper number of clicks up.
OK here is the point that I don't understand If the adjustments are in mill radiants
instead of MOA how does that help ?
It seems that up is up and down is down, what is the difference how we get there ?
Would the mills be broken down into tenths for the scope adjustments ?
and would we then use those the way we use our MOA adjustments ?
If so we would have to know what the mill clicks represented in how much each click raised and lowered the bullet impact.
Does this make sense ?
You know I new this stuff 30 years ago, but darn, some of it is a little foggy.

Sam

[Larry Gibson]

Gray Wolf

A couple specialized scopes now do have elevation and windage adjustments in mils. However the market for them is very small. Part of the formula the military uses is to convert the mils to moa for the scope adjustment. The MilDot analog slide rule does that automatically for you. It will give elevation and windage in mils or moa. It does it very fast and accurately. I am not really "pushing" this product but if one is going to use mil dots for range estimation it is far better and away than using the formula and a calculator.

The trick to accurate measurements with mildots is to know the size of the target in mils. If you know the actual size of the target then the range estimation can be very good. If you are guestimating the size of the target then the guestimation of the range with mildots will only be as good as your original guestimation of the target size. A little off on target size can be a lot off down range. I prefer a lazer range finder, then my Redfield AccuTracs and then mildots. When all else fails I still practice visual range estimation.

Larry Gibson

[82nd airborne]

also, if you find the range using the mil dot system, you are determining the distance in yrds or meters, not mils. so there is not really any conversion to minutes. just use to get the range, then recall your practice session to see how much the bullet drops at the given range, and dial it it. honestly, having never used a scope graduated in mills, I think it would confuse me to no end. that didnt really answer your question tho...

[BD]

Of course you should know the "come up" for your load, or have a table taped to the gun. But the windage can be a little trickier.

I was thinking in terms of corrections at longer ranges. My thought is that if you can see your target, and you can see the dust or hole from a miss through the scope, then using a mil/mil scope you could crank the correction in directly and the next shot should be on target. In larger calibers when the shooter couldn't see the impact due to recoil, it might also be useful if the spotter had mil dots in the spotting scope and the shooter had mil clicks on his adjustments.

The opposite side of the question would be: If the scope companies are committed to MOA adjustments, why not use an MOA scale on the reticule as well? It seems to me that if you could relate your turret adjustment directly to the stadia intervals, there would be no need to take your eye off the ball to look at a calculator.

They have to etch the lens or place the wire either way. Why not use the scale that matches the adjustments?

BD

[82nd airborne]

id say your 100% right there, now, if we can just get them to make one for under 2k...