Cartridge differences between .38 & .357

[Bad luck Bill]

I'vo got a few questions that need answering, here they are for anyone's opinion:

I own a Ruger BlackHawk .357...6.5 inch barrel and I'm wondering whether I should load up .38 brass or .357 brass for target work?

Here's my delema...The .357 brass is longer so the bullet will be right on the throats, but with a small charge (3.0gr Bullseye) the pressures will be different from a .38 shell. What's the best shell to use for accuracy, the .38 or the .357?

I figure they both have their different advantages and disadvantages. The .38's are shorter but should take better advantage of the small amount of powder. The .357 is longer so the bullet will be right at the throat, less distance to travel to the forcing cone supposedly equals better accuracy. I experimented with less distance to the forcing cone with paper shells for my black powder revolvers and I honestly didn't notice a difference in accuracy.

My main concern is how the powder will react to the difference in space in the two shells. Will I get better performance out of the .38's using 3.0grs of Bullseye or maybe it doesn't matter so much? I figure the .357 cartridges are manly longer so they can hold more powder for more powerful loads. If I'm just shooting paper for accuracy maybe I shouldn't use them. Any ideas or suggestions would be very helpful.

Thanks guys,

BLB. > :castmine:

[Jumptrap]

357's are made longer so some hollow head won't try to fire them in an ancient 38 revolver...no other reason.

As for using less powder..bump the charge to 3.5 grs of Bullseye..that sure won't break the bank. I'd prefer using 357 brass if I had it, because it is longer and moves the bullet forward in the cylinder or rifle chamber.

I personally think that two revolvers of the same vintage..lets say a model 15 Smith in 38 special and a model 19 .357 are equal in strength and if you wanted to load the 38 to 357 levels for the model 15, I doubt anything disasterous would result. This doesn't mean use 357 data...but to 357 levels. And before the choir begins to preach, I know the K frames aren't as stout as the N's...but I doubt very many folks have an N frame chambered in 38 special to use hotrod 38 loads in....so please dont chant that mantra to me.

I have had several 19's and 66's and they aren't much fun with fullhouse 357's anyway. If I were you, I'd use the 357 brass, bump the charge half a grain and be happy.

[BD]

3 grains of Bullseye is just a "drop in the bucket" in either case. Don't think it would make a bit of difference in that regard. I'd stick with the .357 cases just to avoid the crud ring that can build up from using the .38 cases in the longer chambers. I just spent 1/2 day slicking up my DW M15V on Sunday so I may have to load up some of those myself this week.
BD

[felix]

In the 357 case, use 3.5-3.8 grains of BE, 700X, RD, etc. ... felix

[MtJerry]

Elmer Keith's favorite load for the .357 magnum was a 170gr. bullet with 12gr. of 2400 in a .38 special case.

I have tried a few of those in my Ruger GP100 and he was right. Good load.


357's are made longer so some hollow head won't try to fire them in an ancient 38 revolver...no other reason.

This poster gave you the real difference.

[Bad luck Bill]

I think you guys may have missed the point of my question! Please re-read it and give me a good reason why one or the other should be used. I'm not worried about pressure damage as my gun can take these light loads with ease. I just want to know the difference between the two cases at it pertains to proformance of powder and headspace, i.e., will I get less accuracy with a .38 shell because it's shorter and thus farther away from the throats of my revolver's chamber? In the .357 case, will 3.0 grains of powder react the same as it does in a .38 case or should I increase the charge in order to even things out?

Details! Details! That's what I'm after! :Fire:

[slughammer]

I think you guys may have missed the point of my question! Please re-read it and give me a good reason why one or the other should be used. I'm not worried about pressure damage as my gun can take these light loads with ease. I just want to know the difference between the two cases at it pertains to proformance of powder and headspace, i.e., will I get less accuracy with a .38 shell because it's shorter and thus farther away from the throats of my revolver's chamber? In the .357 case, will 3.0 grains of powder react the same as it does in a .38 case or should I increase the charge in order to even things out?

Details! Details! That's what I'm after! :Fire:

What boolit are you using? This will make a difference in case capacity, case tension and burn characteristics (even with bullseye).

What distance? Consistency of ignition with small charges will affect POI as the range gets longer.

Each gun being a law upon itself, you're going to have to try both to see what works best.

[Larry Gibson]

I think you guys may have missed the point of my question! Please re-read it and give me a good reason why one or the other should be used. I'm not worried about pressure damage as my gun can take these light loads with ease. I just want to know the difference between the two cases at it pertains to proformance of powder and headspace, i.e., will I get less accuracy with a .38 shell because it's shorter and thus farther away from the throats of my revolver's chamber? In the .357 case, will 3.0 grains of powder react the same as it does in a .38 case or should I increase the charge in order to even things out?

Details! Details! That's what I'm after! :Fire:

Use the .357 cases. With your light load a soft lead bullet (particularly HBWCs) will obturate into the chamber area and have to be swaged down again as it goes through the throat. This creates an uneven base which is detrimental to accuracy. It has been proven over and over again in Ransom Rests that PPC guns built with .38 cylinders are more accurate than when .357 cylinders are used.

With hard cast bullets at medium pressures this is not so much an issue. I shot several thousand 358156s cast of WWs and loaded into .38 cases over 12.5 gr 2400 (Askins and Skeltons load) and crimped into the bottom crimp groove for an overall .357 length. I shot these in several .357s (a Colt Trooper, a BH 6.5" like yours and a 4 5/8" one to, and through several M19s, M28s and a beautiful M27 with 5" barrel. Accuracy was just as good as with the same load in .357 cases with the bullet crimped in the first groove. I never had any indication of erosion in the front of the chambers either. If I didn't have a lot of .357 brass I load that same load in .38 brass again.

However, if one is really using top end magnum loads with bullets cast of WWs then the .357 cases will give the better accuracy for the same reason as listed in my first paragraph. BTW in .357 cases I use 4.5 gr of BE with 358477, 3.5 gr BE with a FBWC and 3 gr with a HBWC seated flush.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Bad Luck Bill,

I think you pretty much know the difference and Larry Gibson gave a pretty good explanation of it.

Before I get on with this post I'd like to tell Jumptrap that he's right about the 357 lenght, to a point. There are other factors. I'm not sure you can seat a bullet correctly with a big powder charge for a 357 in a 38 case. At any rate the longer case having more volume lowers the pressure especially if the powder space isn't entirely filled. That one reason. The other is, you'll say you can seat the bullet farther out on the 38, that the bullet can be seated properly and crimped in the crimping groove. This is important on a revolver round. Don't want the bullet to jump forward and tie the cylinder up. So there's more then just the safety lenght issue.

Now back to the 38. Well the 38 will be more efficient with 3 grs of powder then the 357 for the simple fact there's less unfilled space in the 38 and that raises the pressure and thus the bullet velocity. I shot alot of both 38 and 357's out of my Smith Model 19 and really couldn't detect a difference in accuracy. I ended up only shooting the HBWC's out of 357 cases because I wanted the bullet closer to the throat and didn't want the carbon ring back in the chamber that you get with 38 brass in a 357. Larry explained the PPC guns.

Joe

[Bad luck Bill]

Thanks Larry,Star, 44man, Felix, Slug, everybody! I really appreciate all of the help you've been giving me. At this rate I'll be a pro in no time at all!

Slug:

I've been using the Lyman #358477, some Lee molds, mostly SWC's and WC molds, and I just got a Lyman #358311 and cast about 250 bullets. I just loaded some unsized to see if I get better accuracy or not. I've been shooting at around 17 yards on average and have been shooting a few different loads. I think I'll be mainly shooting only two loads for awhile, so I can focus and start reduing my groups. It's hard to tell whats going on when shooting a bunch of different loads. I figure I should streamline my practice sessions and learn the basics. That means only one or two loads, two bullet designs and a few magnum loads just to break things up a bit.

BLB.

[44man]

Larry and Star gave real good advice. One thing I would not worry about is the distance the boolit has to jump to the forcing cone. I have revolvers that you need a flashlight to find the boolit down there and they are extremely accurate. I think this jump theory is way over rated. Freedom arms is good for making cylinders so short the boolit is right at the end. I have a pile of boolits that will not chamber in their guns unless you shorten the brass. I would rather have a long cylinder that will take any boolit made.
Your only concern is what Larry and Joe so nicely stated.

[StarMetal]

44man,

I have a 45acp cylinder for my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt (old model too). Well when I saw how far down there those 45acp slugs were I thought, hmmmm, these more then likely aren't going to shoot too good. WRONG, they are some of the most accurate loads out of that gun.

Joe

[44man]

You should look down my BFR 45-70 cylinder!

[lar45]

I think you guys may have missed the point of my question! In the .357 case, will 3.0 grains of powder react the same as it does in a .38 case or should I increase the charge in order to even things out?

Details! Details! That's what I'm after! :Fire:

I plugged some numbers into Quickload to give you an idea of what might happen.
6.5" bbl(simulated at 8"), 158 SWC, both crimped in the crimp groove,
Bullseye.
38 Special
3.0gns 804 fps, 9403 psi.
357 mag
3.0gns 754 fps, 7265 psi
3.2gns 792 fps, 8103
3.3gns 811 fps, 8540
3.4gns 829 fps, 8988
3.5gns 847 fps, 9447

RED DOT
38 special
2.7gns 804 fps, 11,623 psi
357 mag
2.9gns 800fps 10,161 psi
** Just a computer program, not actual anything. **

A couple years ago, I bought 2000 38 special cases on E-bay for cheap. We had a CAS shoot at the family reunion, so I loaded piles of ammo and brought the Rossi M92 and a few revolvers. I had a 1/2 can of WAP leftover from loading some 40 S&W about 10 years ago so I used it up. Then loaded the rest with 700X. The WAP loads didn't burn as clean being a slower powder. I don't remember exactly how they shot on paper, but was pleased with the loads. I didn't load any 357's to a similar level. The guns cleaned up fine and I didn't notice any residual ring in the chambers( yes I did look for it).

FWIW

Long throat? Atleast your 45-70 cylinder has the proper size throat from the end of the case.
I was messing around with a Rexio 45/410 single shot shooting some 230BD45's in 45 colt cases, so the bullet had to go through a couple of inches of 3" 410 case sized throat until it hit the rifleings. There is a ridge where the 45 colt is supposed to stop, but a 454 round will chamber:0
http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/rexico-01.jpg
Shot at 25 yds, but was still a big suprise on how it shot.
8gns Red Dot, I didn't chrono them, but should be going around 1150ish.
I checked out their website and they are supposed to have a scope mount for these.

[44man]

That is interesting! I don't have any .410 cases but I wonder what the outside measurement is on them compared to the .45. Maybe from the ridge foreward, the chamber is close to .45 boolit size. Please do some measuring and get back to us.
I understand about the short cases having a gap that the boolit can expand into before being sqeezed back down in the throat but have never had a great loss in accuracy by shooting shorter brass. I have a boolit that will not feed or eject from my Marlin .44 so I shorten the brass for these. I can pack them in one ragged hole at 50 yd's.
My take on the whole issue is to shoot and see what happens. If they shoot good, forget it and have fun. It might take a little brushing to remove fouling but so what! We just can't get anal over these little things. Our guns are more forgiving then we give them credit for.
Reminds me of the time I was on the archery forum and heard all kinds of crap. I worked out the only way to tune a bow for perfect broadhead flight to as far as an arrow could be shot. (Too many years ago to admit.) I kept reading that the broadhead has to be perfectly in line with the shaft and they sell a dial indicator setup for it. I said no, if the bow is tuned right, it does not matter. I turned down some inserts so I could mount a broadhead very crooked by forcing the head sideways while I glued them in. Guess what? I hit the center of the target every shot! The moral of the story is, don't believe everything until you try it yourself.
My motto is the K.I.S.S method.

[Bad luck Bill]

First question: What the hell is a PPC gun?

Second question: Some of the info on the .38 vs the .357 is a little ambiguous. I don't have a mold that drops HBWC's so thats not an issue for me at this point Larry. From what you've told me about the differences in space has confirmed my own suspicians, slower velocities (not much slower) and less pressures in the .357 case vs. the .38 case. So it seems that the differences are minimal? I guess I'll have to run my own comparisons and see what works best for me.

My Lyman #358311 sure does produce an overall beautiful bullet when seated onto a nice and shiney brass cartridge! It's almost too purdy to shoot...almost!:mrgreen:

My philosophy agree more with the older guys then it does with some of the advice I've gotten from some of the younger guys. Shooting/training/practicing at longer distances is better for overall marksmenship, i.e., if you can hit something far away then you sure as **** can hit something close up!

Thanks guys,

BLB > :castmine:

[45 2.1]

Shooting/training/practicing at longer distances is better for overall marksmenship, i.e., if you can hit something far away then you sure as **** can hit something close up!

Therein lies the problem, i.e. being able to hit something far away, not just around it.

[StarMetal]

Bad Luck Bill,

Go here for your PPC question.

http://www.eohc.ca/ppc.asp

Joe

[Bad luck Bill]

Good point!

[Bad luck Bill]

PPC...interesting...too bad I don't own a double action handgun. I'm more into single actions for the time being but at least I know what PPC means now!

BLB.

[slughammer]

Bad Luck Bill,
I shot alot of both 38 and 357's out of my Smith Model 19 and really couldn't detect a difference in accuracy. I ended up only shooting the HBWC's out of 357 cases because I wanted the bullet closer to the throat and didn't want the carbon ring back in the chamber that you get with 38 brass in a 357.

Joe

As Joe mentioned the carbon rings, they are very real. I suffered some of the worst carbon rings with Bullseye. I had much better luck with other powders.




That means only one or two loads, two bullet designs and a few magnum loads just to break things up a bit.



Check for the carbon ring if you switch from 38's to magnums. That carbon ring will cause chambering, extration and possibly pressure problems unless cleaned out first.

The boolit weights you are mentioning should work consistently with bullseye. Lighter boolits with little case tension may show a different side.

[Bad luck Bill]

I've switched between .38's and .357's on the same range trip. The key is to shoot the .357's first, then you won't have any chambering problems. You can even go back and forth between the two as long as you don't go overboard with the .38 cartridges. What was that about lighter bullets and using Bullseye?

BLB.

[slughammer]

...What was that about lighter bullets and using Bullseye?

BLB.

By light I mean light, i.e. 358242 95gr version. Lighter boolits have less inside the case for tension, and take up less capacity and also move easier than heavy boolits. Pressure is what helps powder burn completely and consistently; changing tension, capacity and mass affects pressure. Changing to a fast powder is one way around it, but if the charge is small and positioned at the front of the case ignition will be different than when the powder position is leveled.

No need for you to worry though, all the boolits that you mention are going to work fine.

[Bad luck Bill]

Still nice to learn some new information. So...your from P.A.? How far are you from Baltimore, M.D.? I was just up there about a month ago to check out the Cabelas they built back in 2003, it was an excellent place. Have you been there yet? I'll be going back as soon as I have a nice stash of cash to burn on guns and accesories.

BLB> :castmine:

[Char-Gar]

Bill... I have been shooting the 38/357for over 40 years and here are a couple of observations relevant to your issues.

1) All things being equal, you will get a little better accuracy in the long chamber with the long case.
2) Sometimes all things are not equal, and you never know until your try it for yourself.
3) For pure accuracy the RN bullet like Lyman 358311 will be even the best wadcutter. The wadcutter principal virtue is making a clean hole in the target, which might mean an extra point if a line is cut on a match target.
4) I don't know what you mean by long range vs. shorter range, but learn to shoot at 25 yards. That is far enough for your errors to be obvious. Being obvious you can learn and correct.

[Bad luck Bill]

Charger,

You know something? I've been getting a lot of advice some good, some not so good, all very welcome and appreciated. But what you just wrote really clicked in my mind. It mad a lot of sense. "At that distance your mistakes will be more pronounced, a lot more obvious then at shorter distances." - paraphrased of course, but I strongly agree with you on that point, and it was the best bit of information to date. At least in the sense that I can strongly relate to it, not that it was any better or worse than other people's experience.

Thanks brother,

BLB > :castmine:

[lar45]

I've had the 7yo son out shooting and he has really taken a liking to my Stevens favorite 22 falling block(?)(I guess the block doesn't really fall, It kind of pivots down)
Now that he is getting the open sights figured out, we are shooting at empty shotgun shells. We stand them up with the mouth pushed in the ground and he is shooting the brass bases off of them out to around 20 yards.

After that, soda cans are a piece of cake.

[garandsrus]

Bill,

We have a group buy going on right now for a 105 gr 38 wad cutter. The intended use of the bullet is for plinking and indoor PPC competitions where the distance is 50 feet or less. As you can imagine, reducing the recoil helps on the two stages that are shot relatively quickly.

The guys that are really good can shoot a 600 clean with an amazing X count. The X ring on the 50ft target is an oval about 1.5" x 2.25". The 10 ring is 3" x 4.5".

It's interesting to shoot with the off hand, which you do twice per round! Most folks I have talked to still use their dominant eye.

John

[Bad luck Bill]

What about the dominate eye?

BLB. >:castmine: