Light primer strikes on a pedersoli sharps

[jnovotny]

Bought this gun used awhile back. Just got around to shootin it and found that the rounds I loaded would not go off. Looked at the primer and they are just barely marked, tried several times and multiple rounds all with the same result. Any ideas?

[stephenj]

first thing i'd look for would be a broken firing pin easy to check and cheap to fix, next maybe the main spring ???

[waksupi]

Sounds like broken firing pin.

[GeneT]

One way or another it's the firing pin. The tip can get broken or worn by opening the action without moving the hammer to at least half-cock. Is there scoring on the breech block where the firing pin has been dragging? The other possibility is just some grit binding the firing pin - the pin is offset so the hammer strike from the side gets translated to the center of the cartridge and that makes it susceptible to binding if it's dirty. Press where the hammer strikes - does it move freely?

GsT

[montana_charlie]

Have you ever cleaned that 'used' rifle?
CM

[Gunlaker]

Bought this gun used awhile back. Just got around to shootin it and found that the rounds I loaded would not go off. Looked at the primer and they are just barely marked, tried several times and multiple rounds all with the same result. Any ideas?

I had a used Pedersoli that did that reasonably frequently. I think the previous owner used a heavy oil for lubrication as I took out the firing pin and removed a couple of years of gunk from the firing pin cavity in the breech block. It worked quite a bit better after that, although I still had a few (very rare) light primer strikes. You could also try primers with a softer cup.

Chris.

[cajun shooter]

VTI Gun Parts in Lakeville, CT. ph#860-435-8068 or vtigunparts.com

[zuke]

When I first got mine I had the same problem.
Brought it in and the smith told me a lotta the screw's were loose and it needed a good going over.

[fourarmed]

I ran into a situation on a highwall that might also apply here. A previous owner had stoned the full cock engagement very light without also lightening the trigger return spring. It caused the trigger to hit the half-cock notch as the hammer fell, slowing the hammer enough that it caused misfires.

[John Boy]

jnovotny, don't jump to the conclusion that the firing pin is broken.
Drop the block and remove the Firing Pin Block Plate ...
Then see if there is crud - the pin is broken - the Firing Pin Block is intact or the firing pin spring is weak or broken.

I have shot my Sharps with a broken firing pin. What I had to do was chamber the rounds with the muzzle vertical so the broken pin was not extended that precluded closing the Breech Block in a horizontal position

[Lead pot]

This will happen if your using Wolf Primers.
Some times I have to pull the hammer two-three times before they go off.

[kennisondan]

I am not finding the info I need for this twist rate and that is stopping me from looking for boolets etc.
round barrel double set triggers 45 70 .. special sharps I think it is called...
looked on uberti sites and sellers sites.. no luck..
should I rig up a patch and measure how far it has to go in the barrel to turn one revolution ?
thanks
dk

[waksupi]

I am not finding the info I need for this twist rate and that is stopping me from looking for boolets etc.
round barrel double set triggers 45 70 .. special sharps I think it is called...
looked on uberti sites and sellers sites.. no luck..
should I rig up a patch and measure how far it has to go in the barrel to turn one revolution ?
thanks
dk

You will need at least a 500 gr. Boolit.

[montana_charlie]

I am not finding the info I need for this twist rate and that is stopping me from looking for boolets etc.
45 caliber Sharps rifles built by Pedersoli (which is all of the Uberti Sharps) have a 1 in 18 twist.
CM

[John Boy]

jnovotny - what was broken with your rifle or haven't you fixed it yet?

[cajun shooter]

I hope you know that you should bring the hammer back to it's first notch before dropping the lever on your Sharps. If you don't you can have several things happen. One is to have a round go off if the chamber is loaded. Another is that you can break the pin or spring or both.

[zuke]

I hope you know that you should bring the hammer back to it's first notch before dropping the lever on your Sharps. If you don't you can have several things happen. One is to have a round go off if the chamber is loaded. Another is that you can break the pin or spring or both.

And you'll leave a really deep scrape mark from the primer down.

[montana_charlie]

I hope you know that you should bring the hammer back to it's first notch before dropping the lever on your Sharps. If you don't you can have several things happen. One is to have a round go off if the chamber is loaded. Another is that you can break the pin or spring or both.
I don't know if Sharps rifles from all makers have this characteristic, but it exists on my Pedersoli.
From what I have read, it is an intentional design feature of the Pedersoli lock.

Starting with breech closed and hammer down, the transfer bar is pressed forward far enough to contact the breechblock.
The lever must move downward 10 or 15 degrees before the breechblock starts to drop.
When the breechblock does start to move, the hammer does not follow as it falls away. Therefore, as soon as the breechblock moves, pressure of the hammer face on the transfer bar is slackened.
That means the firing pin is free to retract, and the amount it can retract increases with each iota of drop in the breechblock.
By the time the breechblock as fallen only one eighth of an inch, the firing pin is fully retracted.

It cannot gouge the brass case head.

Lee Shaver used to be the gunsmith who did all of Pedersoli's warranty work for the U.S. market. I read a post by him a couple of years ago, and that post was at least a year old when I read it.
He said he purposely did NOT bring the hammer to half cock when opening his Pedersoli Sharps. His intention was to see how long it takes to break the firing pin. After over a year he still had not broken one...and he shoots a lot.

I've had mine since 2005. I do not go to half cock when opening. I lost a firing pin once, but I have never broken one.

And, one last thing...
If anybody ever has the hammer fully down on a loaded round, someone should take that rifle out of his hands.

CM

[zuke]

It cannot gouge the brass case head.

These have been used only in my Pedersoli Sharp's.

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/PedersoliSharpsbrass002.jpg

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy356/zuke_bucket/PedersoliSharpsbrass003.jpg

Care to explain the scrape's?

[montana_charlie]

It cannot gouge the brass case head.

These have been used only in my Pedersoli Sharp's.

Care to explain the scrape's?
Care to check your rifle to see if it operates as I described...and why it may not?

Here is a copy of your image, with some additions.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=2512

Three cases (marked with red points) have marks which were probably caused by a dragging firing pin, as they correspond with the center of the primer pocket.
The marks on the other cases (extended with green lines) show no relationship with firing pin position. You're on your own figuring out where that kind of damage originates.

The firing pin in your rifle makes a very deep penetration of the primer, and leaves a very flat-bottomed indent. I'm going to guess (I said 'guess') that is not the original pin for that rifle. It think it's too long, and has not been radiused on the tip. The lack of radius theory is strengthened by the 'square bottom' in one or more of your gouges. For a pin to cut that deep in a single pass, it is unlikely that it is properly fitted to the gun.

If your hammer does not stay in position (as I described with mine) when you drop the breechblock, I would wonder if you have ever dry fired the rifle with the breechblock down.

CM

[zuke]

Care to check your rifle to see if it operates as I described...and why it may not?

Here is a copy of your image, with some additions.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=2512

Three cases (marked with red points) have marks which were probably caused by a dragging firing pin, as they correspond with the center of the primer pocket.
The marks on the other cases (extended with green lines) show no relationship with firing pin position. You're on your own figuring out where that kind of damage originates.

The firing pin in your rifle makes a very deep penetration of the primer, and leaves a very flat-bottomed indent. I'm going to guess (I said 'guess') that is not the original pin for that rifle. It think it's too long, and has not been radiused on the tip. The lack of radius theory is strengthened by the 'square bottom' in one or more of your gouges. For a pin to cut that deep in a single pass, it is unlikely that it is properly fitted to the gun.

If your hammer does not stay in position (as I described with mine) when you drop the breechblock, I would wonder if you have ever dry fired the rifle with the breechblock down.

CM

I bought it used, so there's no way of knowing what's happened to it previously.
I do know about 6 week's after I bought itthe trigger pull was WAY off,like 2 finger to set it off.I brought it back got them to look at and didn't see it again for 4week's.When I went to pick it up the smith had said everything had loosened off and had to be retightened upand he's also put loctite in to make sure it stayed put.
I believe him because he's been my best friend for going on 30 year's, and has had this happen before.

[montana_charlie]

I do know about 6 week's after I bought itthe trigger pull was WAY off,like 2 finger to set it off.
The Pedersoli has two adjustment screws for the double set trigger. The rear screw was probably turned in too far.

When I went to pick it up the smith had said everything had loosened off and had to be retightened upand he's also put loctite in to make sure it stayed put.
Counting the lock and the DST together, there are only seven screws.
Hope he didn't charge very much for all that tightening.

I would still take that firing pin out and look it over...
CM

[zuke]

The Pedersoli has two adjustment screws for the double set trigger. The rear screw was probably turned in too far.

Counting the lock and the DST together, there are only seven screws.
Hope he didn't charge very much for all that tightening.

I would still take that firing pin out and look it over...
CM

Like I said he's my best friend. I think it cost me a couple pizza slice's.

Next time I have it out and cleaning it I'll pull ity out and have a look at it.
Anything special I should be looking for?

[montana_charlie]

First, I see if the hammer lowers at all when it's fully down and resting on the transfer bar...and you open the breech. It should start losing contact with thetransfer bar as soon as the breechblock starts to mive down.

Drop the breechblosk out of the rifle.
Look to see if the firing pin protrudes at all, then work the transfer bar with your fingers while observing the action of the firing pin. Just look for anything 'odd'.

Then take out the firing pin.
Check the spring to make sure it's there...and not permanently flat.

Check the firing pin's point to see if it's flat or spherical. It should be round and smooth.
Naturally, look it over for any sign of damage.

And, check the recess for any foriegn material.

If anything seems different than you would expect, describe it or post some pictures. We can compare notes on it to see if it's a problem, or not.

CM

[zuke]

I just copied and pasted you instruction's and sent them to myself so I can read and re-read them.
I'll get on it today.

[wiljen]

In looking at your photo, your firing pin must have a LOT of play as some hits appear nearly dead center and others are nearer the edge than the center. I'm assuming the chamber doesn't have this much slop, so figuring the pin must need a bushing as maybe the hole in the block is not just off center, but large and allowing the pin to float.

[cajun shooter]

MC, I respect your opinon on several things that you have posted and some not as much. You do however have years of OJT. From the way you described your Pedersoli's operation there would be no reason for the warning that is posted by the makers of the rifle. My book states that when the hammer is in a full down position it causes the firing pin to be in full contact with the primer. It then states that if you lower the breech block with the firing pin against the primer it will cause a score mark in the cartridge case as well as doing possible damage to the firing pin. It then says that this practice may also cause a firing if a live round is in the chamber. It appears that the damage that the damage on the cases of Zuke fit this description to a tee. It would be very plain that if your hammer is resting in a full down position on what is a spring firing pin that it would be against the primer.

[montana_charlie]

MC, I respect your opinon on several things that you have posted and some not as much. You do however have years of OJT.
I'll start by saying I appreciate the gentlemanly way you worded your 'disbelief'.


From the way you described your Pedersoli's operation there would be no reason for the warning that is posted by the makers of the rifle.
Actually, I did not discover that aspect of the Pedersoli on my own. I merely verified it by checking my own rifle.
I learned of the characteristic when reading this post by one J.D.Steele, a gunsmith who posts on the ASSRA forum http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1217094683/8#8 .

Since he has observed it in rifles he has 'smithed' on, and because it exists on mine, and because a couple of other shooters have said their rifles are the same, I presume it is also found on all Pedersoli Sharps rifles which have been used in a manner that does not 'change' the factory condition.

I have not had an opportunity to inspect Sharps rifles from other manufacturers to see if any share this 'improvement', but I suspect they do not.

My book states that when the hammer is in a full down position it causes the firing pin to be in full contact with the primer.
I'm certain you would agree that would be a very hazardous situation with a loaded round in the chamber.

It then states that if you lower the breech block with the firing pin against the primer it will cause a score mark in the cartridge case as well as doing possible damage to the firing pin. It then says that this practice may also cause a firing if a live round is in the chamber.
That same warning is very typical of those from all makers of Sharps-pattern rifles.
Pedersoli, desiring to sell rifles in the American market, must do whatever is necessary to satisfy our safety requirements.
I believe Pedersoli intentionally tuned their reproduction of the Sharps lock to remove that particular hazard for the sake of their customers, but considers it a 'good business practice' to post the warning...considering that ours is such a litigious society.

It appears that the damage that the damage on the cases of Zuke fit this description to a tee. It would be very plain that if your hammer is resting in a full down position on what is a spring firing pin that it would be against the primer.
The spring on the firing pin lifts it away from the primer when hammer pressure is removed from the transfer bar.
That pressure is removed when the hammer is pulled to half cock...or when the transfer bar moves away from the hammer.

The scoring on some of Zuke's cartridges probably was caused by a dragging firing pin. But not all. Most of the marks are not aligned with the firing pin indentation. I have no answer for what caused them, without a chance to examine the rifle.

I see no reason to convince you to believe me. If you heed the warning as though your life depends on it, you can't go wrong.

But, when some make statements like 'broken firing pins are a regular fact of life with Sharps rifles'; or 'pull the hammer to half cock or you'll break your firing pin'; or some of the other 'truths' we hear...I sometimes feel the urge to point out that some things may not be as 'universally true' as people think they are.

CM

[cajun shooter]

It sounds as if we agree on more than one thing. You are saying the same as I when you posted that the firing pin spring moves away from the bar when the hammer is moved to half cock. That was my point from the start. I don't think that firing pins breaking are a fact of life either as I have been shooting my present rifle for 14 months without a hitch. There are models like the Armi San Marco and Tri Star that do have those problems. I also agree with you that a lot of hype is passed on by people who have never fired a 1874 Sharps or don't shoot the one they own. I think that you and I are together on about 90% which puts you in the good range. Ha!! Ha!!

[jnovotny]

Sorry fellas for the long delay in respoding to my question. Thanks to all the folks who anserwed. It was a little crud in the breech block and needed a good cleaning. Should have been where I started, but the outside was so clean I never thought about the inards.